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Digital Heroin
Ok, so the setup is timeless and simple. The runner are called to a meet at a family restaurant; a nice, neutral ground in a good, well patrolled neighborhood. Two runners of the five show up unarmed (ok, so one's a mage and the other and adept), the other three come packing heat. When the GM institutes a gun check (unlikely now, but this is the Sixth world), two of them flat out refuse to relinquish their weapons, one even goes so far as trying to intimidate the guy who is supposed to seat people. The third hands over her weapons and is allowed to enter unquestioned. The guy who tried intimidation (only to be asked to leave) proceeds to stand around outside expecting the meet to come to him, while the other just goes home.

What really gets me is the two gun bunnies have the nerve to call anyone who would go to a meet unarmed, or who would check their gun, unprofessional. This is the kind of thing that causes a Johnson to scrub entire runs, and ruins reputations. Am I the only one that watches this drek and wants to reach out and throttle someone?
Edge2054
Provided there is enough time before the meet the team could have checked the places security out a bit. I say if you can pack then do, if not, then leave it in the car and trust the adept and mage to bail you out of the fire if one starts.

Another option is weapons designed to get through MADs. As long as there isn't a physical pat down these tend to be easy to get inside. Also, bribing tends to work a hell of a lot better then intimidation. Point being there's a number of other ways the players could have handled this.

Attempting to get a gun inside of a meet's half expected in my mind. I expect the J's bodyguards to be packing and plan to as well if at all possible. The approach the team gave it, especially the intimidation thing's just bad biz IMO and not the smartest RP either. One of those times I as a game master would wish the player had taken the common sense edge.
Mr. Man
Have another Johnson organize a meet in an empty parking lot in a "D" neighborhood where they can carry all the weapons they want. In fact, Mr. J should remind them to come ready to travel because if they take the job they'll be shipping out immediately.

When they get out in the parking lot they all get shot in the head by a team of snipers (one for each of them). Then "Mr. J" (who doesn't actually work for whatever corp or policlub he presented himself as being a representative of) has his goons raid their corpses before selling them to organleggers who are standing by.

After this the knowledge should dawn on your players that if Mr. J wants their characters dead no amount of artillery will save them.
FrostyNSO
Holy Jesus.

Just bribe the guy for heaven's sake! Hell, one bribe and he'd prolly let them all get in with their toys.

edit: If it helps, I just consider the bribe part of the "cover charge" to get in.
fistandantilus4.0
A team should never all go into the meet, for those two reasons right there. THe majority should wait outside, wtih some sort of communication. Especially if it's an experienced team, as they've probably pissed people off in the past and made some enemies. Send in the mage and the face, and have the rest armed and outside in case things go bad.

It is expected that a couple of weapons are going to make it in. But etiqutte demands that it be subtle. Arguing with the doorman and Sizzler to be able to keep your Ares Predator III is jsut stupid and is going to get the Star called.

They should be waiting outside watching for trouble, well armed in case they need to be, not because they feel vulnerable without their Ares Compensator down the front of their pants.
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Ares Compensator

rotfl.gif
Adarael
QUOTE
After this the knowledge should dawn on your players that if Mr. J wants their characters dead no amount of artillery will save them.


The unfortunate part of the setup you illustrate is that if a team is properly paranoid, properly wise, and most of all, properly professional... it won't catch them. Why?

1) If the team has a mage, which they bloody well should, the mage runs out in Astral Projection to do a quick on-the-fly scouting, to see how many people the J has there already, if any, and what they're doing. Seeing 2-10 guys laying on rooftops, arms poised as if to cradle a rifle (assuming they fail to see the non-astrally present rifles) should raise alarm bells.

2) The team should show up early. Way early. Like 1-2 hours early. Why? To secure the meet zone and ensure it stays that way. Not only because the J might screw them, but to ensure a third party doesn't screw one or both of them. If the J gets popped by a third party, it reflects badly on the runners, their fixer, the J's bodyguards... basically everybody involved. If, in showing up early, the zone is compromised, you call the J and inform him, and give him an alternate spot to meet at. If he refuses, you call the entire thing off. If he threatens you, you ensure he never works in the shadows again - and usually, this is as simple as informing the community of shadowrunners that this guy's no good. A J with a blown rep is no good as a J to whatever corp or organization he works for, and if that's his specialty (or the run was especially important), you can be reasonably certain he's dogmeat. At best (for him), he gets transferred to another department with a stern reprimand not to compromise company interests. At worst, he gets a brand new flow-through ventilation system in his head because he's just eating resources for the corp or organization.

It comes down to this - Shadowrunners are 9 out of 10 times the cheapest and most easily replaced portion of a run. Windows of opportunity, secret data, items, et cetera are all very hard to replace. Manpower isn't. Considering the amount of money, power, and political sway most Shadowrunner employers can toss around, it falls upon the runner to take every single precaution they can to ensure neither they nor their employer is unneccesarrily vulnerable during a meet.

I think in the current game we've been screwed by a Johnson twice. Not ATTEMPTED, mind you, but actually screwed. Once was when we didn't check our sources well enough and didn't bank on the fact that our enemies might not know who they were hiring (during a portion of Brainscan), and once was when we realized what was going on halfway through a run. Because of earlier attempts at similar screwage, our team will not meet with a Johnson in any situation where we are unable to ascertain our own safety. If they don't like it, they can hire someone else. It's just that simple. And the one time we caught up to our Johnson after they'd screwed us? Well, lemmie quote the Punisher here, because it went somethink like something he said:

"Most people involved in attempts to kill me die. Not you. You get a warning. Don't ever give me cause to visit you again. Like I say, I can get in anywhere. Nothing stops me. The latest idiots to try are vapor. Nine milimeters... I'm never further away than that."

Because even if Mr. J works for Aztechnology... even if his orders to hire you come from Z-O itself... ultimately he will realize that as an employee, his personal life is far more expendible than his position, and his corporation will not spend a spectacular amount of money protecting that personal life when the money could be better put to use hiring another, less aware team.
Mr. Man
QUOTE (Adarael)
The unfortunate part of the setup you illustrate is that if a team is properly paranoid, properly wise, and most of all, properly professional... it won't catch them.

Obviously.

However a team with those traits would already know that to a certain extent you have to trust the Johnson. A team with those traits certainly wouldn't be caught dead arguing with the door man at T. Phineas McPickleshitter's because he won't let them bring their guns in. They would realize when they heard the address of the meet that if anything goes down there will be cops all over it.

Fygg Nuuton
i wouldn't go to a meet where they didn't take my weapons
toturi
QUOTE (Mr. Man)
However a team with those traits would already know that to a certain extent you have to trust the Johnson.

Such a team would not trust a Johnson. They would attempt to check up, cross-reference, doublecheck, re-check and do whatever it is necessary to secure and verify the trustworthiness of the Johnson. And still not trust him.

Not bringing a weapon to the meet is unprofessional. Leaving a weapon at the door is par for the course. But it is unprofessional to meet with the Johnson unarmed (unless unarmed is the weapon). As a runner, the odds are against you, you do whatever necessary to improve those odds and even turn them around. If you do not, you are being unprofessional. Walking away from a meet is professional. A professional knows walking is better than dying.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
i wouldn't go to a meet where they didn't take my weapons

I'll remember that if we ever switch roles Fyggy. ork.gif
Birdy
The classical tips for professionals:

+ You are worthless! If Mr. J wants you dead, he gives a gang a dozend Predators, a few hundret NuYen and points them in your general direction. He won't arrange a fake meeting

+ Mr. J is god! The Zeus/Odin/Ivanova type of GOD! So it's best not to piss him of.

+ Threatening Mr. J during the initial meet is pissing him of

+ Form follows function. Showing up at the Ritz-Carlton in Battledress, with an assault rifle on your shoulder, enough ammo to win DienBienPhu and wearing a combat pot with "Born to kill" scrawled on the cover is not professional. Neither is showing up to a meet in the Barrens in a 3-piece Armani Suit that costs more than the inhabitants of the block earn in a year.

+ There is such a thing as too much paranoia. That's the one that costs you the job

+ Huge Mowhawks, visible tatoos and other easily recognised characteristics are unprofessional unless produced for the run and discarded immediatly afterwards

+ Trolls with their unique arrangement of Horns and Plates are unprofessional

+ If you are a team, send one to negotiate. If you are not, don't negotiate as a team.

+ If you know shit about negotiations, use your Fixer. That's what he's getting payed for

+ Etiquette isn't nice to have, it's a must.

+ If in Japan, do as the Japanese! Adressing the Oyabun the same way you adress the Pizzaboy hurts

+ Stupid runners rest in pieces

+ Sometimes it's okay to put plastic explosivs in your teammates headsets.

Birdy

Adarael
QUOTE
+ Form follows function. Showing up at the Ritz-Carlton in Battledress, with an assault rifle on your shoulder, enough ammo to win DienBienPhu and wearing a combat pot with "Born to kill" scrawled on the cover is not professional.


Now, is that a near-quote from Fields of Fire, or is it a quote from a Cyberpunk 2020 book? I'm getting the inkling it's from one of the Chromebooks.

QUOTE
+ There is such a thing as too much paranoia. That's the one that costs you the job.


Generally, that is a trade my PCs have been willing to make. Of course, there are always those times when I'm playing someone that really needs the money.

QUOTE
+ Sometimes it's okay to put plastic explosivs in your teammates headsets.


Remind me to tell all of yas sometime about a PC in a game I ran who implanted a tazer in a fellow PC, hooked up to his heart, so that she could taze him with intensities varying from 'extremely unpleasant' to 'lethal', based on how poorly that PC behaved in polite company.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Adarael)
QUOTE
+ Form follows function. Showing up at the Ritz-Carlton in Battledress, with an assault rifle on your shoulder, enough ammo to win DienBienPhu and wearing a combat pot with "Born to kill" scrawled on the cover is not professional.


Now, is that a near-quote from Fields of Fire, or is it a quote from a Cyberpunk 2020 book? I'm getting the inkling it's from one of the Chromebooks.

sounds like Fields of Fire, although, like you said, not an exact quote. The gist of ...
DrJest
Gun-checks are one part of the reason almost all my characters - even the mages - have some form of unarmed combat or martial arts, usually rated at least 4. There are, of course, numerous other reasons, but gun-checks are a good one.


Actually I have five "must-have" skills that always go into a character - Firearms (since SR3 that's usually Pistols), Unarmed Combat/Martial Arts, Stealth, Athletics (Stupid Shadowrunner Deaths: drowning and falling off walls), Etiquette (varies depending on character background, usually Street or Magic) - but that's a whole other discussion smile.gif
DrJest
QUOTE
sounds like Fields of Fire, although, like you said, not an exact quote. The gist of ...


I recall something about a street sammie with "Eat My Snake" tattooed on his head who spent the meet ostentatiously cleaning his spurs... tell you, without a really compelling reason to stay, most of my characters would walk away from working with idiots like that as well...
fistandantilus4.0
I remember something about Argent saying that he hates guys like that. THen some one else came on "but Argent, aren't you a street samurai" "exactly" it's like Head & Shoulders meets SR.

Funny thing is, I've seen a player ACTUALLY DO THAT in a meet once. Needless to say, he didn't survive the run. With a little help (well, lack of needed help) from the rest of the team.
Talia Invierno
I'm rather getting a kick out of how much focus there is on these boards on "professionalism": yet how threads like this one demonstrate that we can't even agree upon whether or not professionalism lets (or demands) you carry pistols to a meet ... let alone what else is inherent to this one, "simple" concept.
ShadowDragon8685
If everyone's idea of professionalism was identical, we'd have no fodder for the stupid character death threads, would we?
fistandantilus4.0
that's because a lot of it differs from how each player interprets the game world. Some people wouldn't blink an eye at walking the streets of downtown wit han assult rifle on thier shoulder, where some would say that's suicide, and other jsut say it's a very bad idea. It's all left to tone. Personally I'm of the opinion that Johnson's would be dissapointed if a runner didn't manage to get some kind of weapon into a meet, but upset if they breached etiquette by making it obvious. Just like they know that his name isn't Mr johnson, and he's probably lying about half the stuff he tells them (again depending on the tone of your game), but won't bat an eye until they follow up on him with leg work later.

Until Fanpro puts out "MJBB 2 - the Meet" with rules of etiquette for coming to a meet armed, it's going to be left up to each group exactly what flies at a meet and what doesn't (well, realistically, that wouldn't change anything anyways).

QUOTE
If everyone's idea of professionalism was identical, we'd have no fodder for the stupid character death threads, would we?


You can still be professional and die (although it's not as funny). For the really stupid, there's the C.L.U.E. Files.
Birdy
QUOTE (Adarael)
QUOTE
+ Form follows function. Showing up at the Ritz-Carlton in Battledress, with an assault rifle on your shoulder, enough ammo to win DienBienPhu and wearing a combat pot with "Born to kill" scrawled on the cover is not professional.


Now, is that a near-quote from Fields of Fire, or is it a quote from a Cyberpunk 2020 book? I'm getting the inkling it's from one of the Chromebooks.

QUOTE
+ There is such a thing as too much paranoia. That's the one that costs you the job.


Generally, that is a trade my PCs have been willing to make. Of course, there are always those times when I'm playing someone that really needs the money.

QUOTE
+ Sometimes it's okay to put plastic explosivs in your teammates headsets.


Remind me to tell all of yas sometime about a PC in a game I ran who implanted a tazer in a fellow PC, hooked up to his heart, so that she could taze him with intensities varying from 'extremely unpleasant' to 'lethal', based on how poorly that PC behaved in polite company.

The first quote his ripped from "Listen up you primitiv screwhead" (CP 2020 sourcebook, recommended for SR players)

The last is from one of the "Dark Conspiracy" novels

Birdy
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Birdy)
QUOTE (Adarael @ Aug 3 2005, 10:36 AM)
QUOTE
+ Form follows function. Showing up at the Ritz-Carlton in Battledress, with an assault rifle on your shoulder, enough ammo to win DienBienPhu and wearing a combat pot with "Born to kill" scrawled on the cover is not professional.


Now, is that a near-quote from Fields of Fire, or is it a quote from a Cyberpunk 2020 book? I'm getting the inkling it's from one of the Chromebooks.

QUOTE
+ There is such a thing as too much paranoia. That's the one that costs you the job.


Generally, that is a trade my PCs have been willing to make. Of course, there are always those times when I'm playing someone that really needs the money.

QUOTE
+ Sometimes it's okay to put plastic explosivs in your teammates headsets.


Remind me to tell all of yas sometime about a PC in a game I ran who implanted a tazer in a fellow PC, hooked up to his heart, so that she could taze him with intensities varying from 'extremely unpleasant' to 'lethal', based on how poorly that PC behaved in polite company.

The first quote his ripped from "Listen up you primitiv screwhead" (CP 2020 sourcebook, recommended for SR players)

The last is from one of the "Dark Conspiracy" novels

Birdy

I've already exhausted the C.L.U.E. files. I need more! More stupidity, more deaths! smile.gif
mmu1
QUOTE (Mr. Man)
After this the knowledge should dawn on your players that if Mr. J wants their characters dead no amount of artillery will save them.

Really? For me, this would be a point at which it'd dawn on me to go looking for a new GM and see how much of the group I could convince to go with me, because I don't put up with people wasting my time.
Ryu
In our group, we usually carry pistols to a meet. Any request to disarm is followed unless the weapon in question is undetectable by the means present / supposed to be present. What problem to I really need a pistol for that the mage can´t solve on his own? We tend to meet in places that provide their own security, and depend on guranteeing said security for all parties involved.

If that last condition is not met, everything goes. The choosen frontman will go in nearly unarmed, as a sign of trust, two others will provide armored and well armed protection, anyone left is part of Runner-FRT-alpha. The goal here is making safe elemination of our team in short order VERY hard.

It is only professional to carry a gun if you might be going to need it. Then it becomes unprofessional not to do so.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
I've already exhausted the C.L.U.E. files. I need more! More stupidity, more deaths! smile.gif

Yes, such is always needed. A while back, there was even an attempt at satisfying that need. Unfortunately, what little content it had is now gone. It had been here. Maybe you can find a working page archived somewhere.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Mr. Man)
to a certain extent you have to trust the Johnson.

If anyone says this to you in-game, put a bullet in their head and walk away. Clearest sign of unprofessionalism there is.
QUOTE
You are worthless! If Mr. J wants you dead, he gives a gang a dozend Predators, a few hundret NuYen and points them in your general direction. He won't arrange a fake meeting

Might as well shoot yourself, then. If you can't take everything the J can reasonably afford to throw at you, you shouldn't be running.
QUOTE
Mr. J is god! The Zeus/Odin/Ivanova type of GOD! So it's best not to  piss him of.

Mr. J is mortal, and very squishy. Remind him of it if he thinks he's god.
QUOTE
Threatening Mr. J during the initial meet is pissing him of

Always know what your positions are and try not to bluff. If you've got an advantage and will keep that advantage, feel free to let him know.
QUOTE
There is such a thing as too much paranoia. That's the one that costs you the job

You can get all the jobs in the world and it doesn't do you a bit of good if you get pasted. Walking away from a good job is nigh-infinitely better than sticking out a bad job.
QUOTE
Huge Mowhawks, visible tatoos and other easily recognised characteristics are unprofessional unless produced for the run and discarded immediatly afterwards

I agree from a practicality standpoint, but that goes against the SR feel so I'm going to have to reject it. Others may disagree.
QUOTE
Trolls with their unique arrangement of Horns and Plates are unprofessional

Trolls are an excellent way of bringing weapons where no weapons are allowed. Proper use of them is consummately professional.
QUOTE
If you are a team, send one to negotiate. If you are not, don't negotiate as a team.

Send in a few people—one might pick up on something the others' don't, or might convince the Johnson that trying something funny isn't a good idea.
QUOTE
Etiquette isn't nice to have, it's a must.

No more (or less) so than Computers skill.
QUOTE
If in Japan, do as the Japanese! Adressing the Oyabun the same way you adress the Pizzaboy hurts

It sends a message. Just be sure you can back up that message.
QUOTE
Sometimes it's okay to put plastic explosivs in your teammates headsets.

It is never ok to do this, as it offers a chance for the teammate to discover what you've done when you aren't around to off them. The worst-case scenario is that a teammate discovers that you're prepared to off them and you aren't there to immediately follow through.

~J
nezumi
I'm surprised these self-respecting gun bunnies don't have anything small enough that they can smuggle it in. There's a reason long coats and hold-outs are listed in the equipment section. I'm even more surprised that someone decided to leave the site altogether when he couldn't get in.

But the question is what was done (or not done) that was unprofessional.

The entire team loses points for not scoping out the place beforehand. They also lose points for not arriving early enough that they could have made other arrangements to get weapons in. Then they lose points for trying to get EVERYONE in (but not so many on that one.)

The gunbunny in question loses points for not being prepared. No hold-out? No melee skills? Not enough time to sneak something in? No etiquette skill or fake registration papers? Who's fault is that? Not the Johnson's.

Then he tries to intimidate the bouncer? Now he's crossing from unprofessional to just straight out stupid. Bribe, sure. But intimidation gets the cops called, and NO ONE wants that.

Going outside and hanging around was probably the smartest thing he did at that point. What was he trying to contribute by being in on the meet? What could be contribute by being outside of the building? Not taking the job was his call, but probably a silly one. The Johnson picking a place where no weapons are allowed is a GOOD thing. That means he's limited in what he can pack too, and a gunfight with holdouts leaves a whole lot more survivors than one with LMGs.

*sigh*
Talia Invierno
QUOTE
to a certain extent you have to trust the Johnson. 
- Mr. Man

If anyone says this to you in-game, put a bullet in their head and walk away. Clearest sign of unprofessionalism there is.
- Kagetenshi

If there were in fact absolute mistrust, the role of independent shadowrunner wouldn't exist, because no deal/contract/agreement could ever be made.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (American Heritage Dictionary)
Trust

v.tr.

To have or place confidence in; depend on.

This one must absolutely never be given to the Johnson.
QUOTE
To expect with assurance; assume: I trust that you will be on time.

Within reason, this one is acceptable.
QUOTE
To believe: I trust what you say.

This one should be given very sparingly.
QUOTE
To place in the care of another; entrust.
To grant discretion to confidently: Can I trust them with the boat?
To extend credit to.

Inapplicable.

~J
Edge2054
IMO a fixer worth his salt should have some idea of who he's setting the team up with, his reputation lives and dies by drek like that. If he starts to garner a rep for having his runners capped by organ leggers his career, not to mention life, is probably going to end up very short. Of course if the team in question screwed him at some point in the past then it's a whole other ball game.

In Mr. Man's scenerio, I'd look for another GM as well, unless of course the situation was warranted some how. We'd fragged someone over, or our fixer told us, "Hey chums, I don't know about this one, but the fragger's offering a lot of yen so I figured I'd give ya the opprutinity if ya wanted it," etc. *edit* Some sort of either flag that should set off alarms or damn good in-game reason for the set up to be so sound. Granted meeting in a place that's so open is risky to begin with, but a certain level of implied trust is inherent in the fixer/runner relationship. If these things are present, then it's our own damn fault. If not, the GMs just trashing our character sheets. *end edit*

Point being, the idea that a fixer won't put at least a little work into his work is just innane to me. At least any decent fixer. I figure that should be the exception, rather then the rule. I'm not saying take your fixer's word for it, do your own legwork and check these fraggers out, show up at the meet early and prepared, scope the place out long before hand if at all possible, and if you're not comfortable with the locale, set up the meet in a different one. But your fixer should at least have some idea who he's dealing with and be 90% sure he's not getting the team fragged... unless of course he's doing it on purpose. The same blood runs the opposite way as well, if the team goes to a meet and frags up a decent J contact, I would black ball them if I was their fixer.
arcady
Another phrasing for professionalims is 'gamer geek with an attitude about their PC's -kewl- factor' - at least, as it was described in the first post of this thread.

It's the sort of player who always needs shades and trenchcoat with his back to the wall and an image of 'The Matrix' running in his mind in order to play...
Birdy
Guess what, I disagree with most of Kagetenshis opinions biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Mr. Man @ Aug 3 2005, 02:55 AM)
to a certain extent you have to trust the Johnson.

If anyone says this to you in-game, put a bullet in their head and walk away. Clearest sign of unprofessionalism there is.



Or a lousy GM. I hated the "...Johnson screws you twice" crap from day one and it didn't change. A (semi)professional criminal underground can't work without some thrust and Johnsons are not the "End-Level monster"

QUOTE


QUOTE
You are worthless! If Mr. J wants you dead, he gives a gang a dozend Predators, a few hundret NuYen and points them in your general direction. He won't arrange a fake meeting

Might as well shoot yourself, then. If you can't take everything the J can reasonably afford to throw at you, you shouldn't be running.



In the SR universe transforming a criminal into a dead criminal is extremly cheap. Even today people are killed for a few hundret bucks or a fancy car. In 2050+ there are many more, much more desperate people. So the runners can never take the quantity that Johnson throws at them


QUOTE


QUOTE
Mr. J is god! The Zeus/Odin/Ivanova type of GOD! So it's best not to  piss him of.

Mr. J is mortal, and very squishy. Remind him of it if he thinks he's god.



Great idea. If you walk away, okay that'll only hurt your reputation (maybe). If you kill Mr. J, you might just as well kill your fixer and than yourself. If J's Bosses won't hunt you down, your fixer will. He has a reputation (delivers professionals!) to defend.

QUOTE


QUOTE
Threatening Mr. J during the initial meet is pissing him of

Always know what your positions are and try not to bluff. If you've got an advantage and will keep that advantage, feel free to let him know.



Politely using an advantage is not pissing of the Johnson.

QUOTE


QUOTE
There is such a thing as too much paranoia. That's the one that costs you the job

You can get all the jobs in the world and it doesn't do you a bit of good if you get pasted. Walking away from a good job is nigh-infinitely better than sticking out a bad job.



You can only run away so many times. And jobs don't grow on trees. At least not the ones that pay better than "Go over to Mom and Pops Grosserie and show the Don's displeasure with them not paying insurance"

QUOTE


QUOTE
Huge Mowhawks, visible tatoos and other easily recognised characteristics are unprofessional unless produced for the run and discarded immediatly afterwards

I agree from a practicality standpoint, but that goes against the SR feel so I'm going to have to reject it. Others may disagree.



Some clichees should be burried! Deeply!

QUOTE



QUOTE
Trolls with their unique arrangement of Horns and Plates are unprofessional

Trolls are an excellent way of bringing weapons where no weapons are allowed. Proper use of them is consummately professional.



Not really. Most establishments will be very reluctant to allow a 2.8m / 300+ kg monstrosity to enter. And even if they do so, a Troll crawling on all fours or on his knees is ridiculous, not dangerous. Your universe may vary but in mine few buildings are Troll-height. Max ceiling heigt 2.2-2.3m is more realistic

QUOTE


QUOTE
If you are a team, send one to negotiate. If you are not, don't negotiate as a team.

Send in a few people—one might pick up on something the others' don't, or might convince the Johnson that trying something funny isn't a good idea.



Let's change that to: Pre-plan a negotiation strategy and have a negotiation leader

QUOTE



QUOTE
Etiquette isn't nice to have, it's a must.

No more (or less) so than Computers skill.



I get much further with Etiquette than with computers. SR computers are Mac++ for general use and not being able to do advanced research is a mere inconvenience. Not knowing how to deal with gangs/Oyabuns/Dons/Cops can get me hurt/killed/hunted

QUOTE



QUOTE
If in Japan, do as the Japanese! Adressing the Oyabun the same way you adress the Pizzaboy hurts

It sends a message. Just be sure you can back up that message.



You can't! That's why he is the Oyabun!

QUOTE



QUOTE
Sometimes it's okay to put plastic explosivs in your teammates headsets.

It is never ok to do this, as it offers a chance for the teammate to discover what you've done when you aren't around to off them. The worst-case scenario is that a teammate discovers that you're prepared to off them and you aren't there to immediately follow through.

~J


It's okay if you make sure they don't find out. biggrin.gif


Birdy
mmu1
Our team must have better fixers than average, then... Because they generally don't set up meets for us in places where we'll have to go through an embarassing (for everyone concerned) amount of scrutiny.

My character always comes armed to meets - heavy pistol (with a decent concealability and in a concealable holster, to minimize potential problems), a very high concealability light pistol, and generally also shock gloves - worn or pocketed, depending on the type of place and type of client. If he's asked to turn in his weapons at the door, he does so - it helps that the doormen in our games generally tend to be polite when dealing withe professionally acting heavily wired runners. Of course, if he ever does get invited to a meet at a 4-star restaurant, he's just going to leave the guns in the car and wear a nice suit...

The team also has a pretty decent surveillance capacity, so most of our meetings are well checked-out, and are conducted with rigger overwatch...
Wiz In Red
Catch this, we had a meet with a J who called himself Niles something or other...our people looked at each other and kinda grinned and grimaced...new J = more expendable than usual...By the end of the evening, we witnessed his employer politely and calmly shoot him right between the eyes. He hadn't been authorized to hire anyone, and he strained his company's relationship with another company...It was a cherished moment, but I do so miss Niles now and again.

I should note it was the first job our group was "hired" for, so the GM was feeling benevolent in introducing us to the game system (most of us were first timers).
Clyde
Maybe these gun bunnies should get cyberguns. A cyber heavy pistol can't be taken away, after all.

And shouldn't this trust stuff go the other way, too? The Johnson has to trust the runners to do his job - and not to talk about it. He could be damaged in lots of ways - pissing off the violent criminals he's hiring through petty exercises of personal power that are purely temporary is an extra problem he doesn't need.

If the Johnson is cool about meeting, he's liable not to get shot at in the first place. After all, the runners don't get paid unless they play along. If they want to rob him, he can just hand over the money and then have the runners killed later. Maybe he only knows you through your fixer, but your fixer knows who you are. Think about this from the fixer's point of view - "The team I recommended for this job just went out and murdered their potential employer. Unfortunately, that guy worked for Ares and now my house is going to get hit with a Thor shot unless I make it VERY CLEAR that I had nothing to do with it. Thus, I will definitely be sending the home addresses of those runners to Ares right away."

Really, if the Johnson has all this power why the hell would he worry about a couple of pistols? He needs to unpucker and just get down to business if you ask me.
Birdy
QUOTE (Clyde)
Maybe these gun bunnies should get cyberguns. A cyber heavy pistol can't be taken away, after all.

And shouldn't this trust stuff go the other way, too? The Johnson has to trust the runners to do his job - and not to talk about it. He could be damaged in lots of ways - pissing off the violent criminals he's hiring through petty exercises of personal power that are purely temporary is an extra problem he doesn't need.

If the Johnson is cool about meeting, he's liable not to get shot at in the first place. After all, the runners don't get paid unless they play along. If they want to rob him, he can just hand over the money and then have the runners killed later. Maybe he only knows you through your fixer, but your fixer knows who you are. Think about this from the fixer's point of view - "The team I recommended for this job just went out and murdered their potential employer. Unfortunately, that guy worked for Ares and now my house is going to get hit with a Thor shot unless I make it VERY CLEAR that I had nothing to do with it. Thus, I will definitely be sending the home addresses of those runners to Ares right away."

Really, if the Johnson has all this power why the hell would he worry about a couple of pistols? He needs to unpucker and just get down to business if you ask me.

You forget the cute elfin secretary he has waiting back in his company appartment.

Getting killed by some streetscum really is bad for your "little Johnsons" performance. Even Viagra 2060 won't fix that problem... biggrin.gif
mmu1
QUOTE (Birdy)
In the SR universe transforming a criminal into a dead criminal is extremly cheap. Even today people are killed for a few hundret bucks or a fancy car. In 2050+ there are many more, much more desperate people. So the runners can never take the quantity that Johnson throws at them

(...)

Great idea. If you walk away, okay that'll only hurt your reputation (maybe). If you kill Mr. J, you might just as well kill your fixer and than yourself. If J's Bosses won't hunt you down, your fixer will. He has a reputation (delivers professionals!) to defend.

Johnsons are not omnipotent and don't have unlimited resources. Neither are the companies they work for.

A Johnson is just a corporate employee, and killing one - with good reason, such as self defense - is no different than the hundred kinds of hurt runners inflict on other corporations in the course of their work. In fact, your typical Johnson is a lot less valuable than - for example - a scientist the team might forcibly extract from somewhere, but snatch-and-grab jobs aren't widely considered to be a death sentence, are they?

Second, fixers work for the runners just as much - if not more so - than for the Johnsons, and if they're stupid enough to try to have runners killed, or routinely side with double-crossing Johnsons rather than runners - well, guess who probably has the best idea where the fixer lives?

Of course, you could have a strung-out-junkie campaign in which the characters say "how high" every time someoene with a few nuyen.gif says "jump", but I imagine that's hardly the dafault SR setting for most people...
Birdy
QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (Birdy @ Aug 3 2005, 11:05 AM)
In the SR universe transforming a criminal into a dead criminal is extremly cheap. Even today people are killed for a few hundret bucks or a fancy car. In 2050+ there are many more, much more desperate people. So the runners can never take the quantity that Johnson throws at them

(...)

Great idea. If you walk away, okay that'll only hurt your reputation (maybe). If you kill Mr. J, you might just as well kill your fixer and than yourself. If J's Bosses won't hunt you down, your fixer will. He has a reputation (delivers professionals!) to defend.

Johnsons are not omnipotent and don't have unlimited resources. Neither are the companies they work for.

A Johnson is just a corporate employee, and killing one - with good reason, such as self defense - is no different than the hundred kinds of hurt runners inflict on other corporations in the course of their work. In fact, your typical Johnson is a lot less valuable than - for example - a scientist the team might forcibly extract from somewhere, but snatch-and-grab jobs aren't widely considered to be a death sentence, are they?

Second, fixers work for the runners just as much - if not more so - than for the Johnsons, and if they're stupid enough to try to have runners killed, or routinely side with double-crossing Johnsons rather than runners - well, guess who probably has the best idea where the fixer lives?

Of course, you could have a strung-out-junkie campaign in which the characters say "how high" every time someoene with a few nuyen.gif says "jump", but I imagine that's hardly the dafault SR setting for most people...

"With good reason" is something I can agree on. If it's "You or Mr. J" it's okay for the runners to kill Mr. J. But not just because the feel like doing so!

As for the Fixer: I see Runners as "semi-professional scum" and the fixer has more than one team. He get's his money from Mr. J, not the runners and if runners kill Mr. J "just because they can" or "feel treated wrong", than he will side with the company. And while the runners might! know where he lives, so does Mr. Js boss.


As for the scientist: There is always another team to take the job unless the Mr. J is a total ideot (typically seen in the 24h rush job) That leads me to another rule:

+ If you get less than 72 hours to plan a job, walk away!

As said, walking away meight (not will) hurt your rep but is normally totally acceptable.

Birdy
Nikoli
Though this brings to mind something else.
Just how does a Johnson gain a rep?
The Name Mr. Johnson protects them, in theory, from being known. There is no mechanic in the game to tell one Johnson from another prior to a face to face meet (even that is unreliable with magic)
In fact there is no way to know that each and every Johnson you have ever worked with isn't the same guy with different, powerful disguises.

It's not like there is a Urban Resource Management Local 4122 that they have to become members in in Seattle that allows runner and fixers to know what each one is like and if they are worth the time time and risk to show up for.
Birdy
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Though this brings to mind something else.
Just how does a Johnson gain a rep?
The Name Mr. Johnson protects them, in theory, from being known. There is no mechanic in the game to tell one Johnson from another prior to a face to face meet (even that is unreliable with magic)
In fact there is no way to know that each and every Johnson you have ever worked with isn't the same guy with different, powerful disguises.

It's not like there is a Urban Resource Management Local 4122 that they have to become members in in Seattle that allows runner and fixers to know what each one is like and if they are worth the time time and risk to show up for.

I actually never played it that way. It simply won't work. There are three variants I used:

a) You never see Mr. J [Borrowed from Walter Jon Williams "Hardwired"]

All things are handled through your Fixer who in turn knows a Fixer that... until some low level corp guy is involved. Payment is often in equipment (Drugs are well-liked) or in various corp-script, valuabels (Gold) or classic paper money (Still in use IMU), bearer bonds etc.

b) Virtual Meeting place

Again, this involves a fixer handling the money (and taking a cut) and the meeting is "in the Matrix", typically in a Fixer-supplied system or something like the Nexus

c) Mr. J has a name [Think Oceans 11]

You know the guy you'll be working for by name. He might be a company man, he might be another fixer but he has a face and a name


Now granted, my runners never have a SIN, can't use DocWagon and exist outside the system since my cons are not exterritorial. Cons get political power the old fashioned way: They buy some politicians

Birdy
Velocity
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Just how does a Johnson gain a rep?
The Name Mr. Johnson protects them, in theory, from being known. There is no mechanic in the game to tell one Johnson from another prior to a face to face meet (even that is unreliable with magic)

To a large extent what you're saying is true, but there are exceptions. In the campaign I GM for instance, there's a few Johnsons who go by an actual name, eschewing the whole "Johnson" slang altogether. Now, the name they go by is an alias as well, but it's a steady alias connected to a steady face. Some of them are clearly known to the shadow community as being affiliated with a particular company, while others have more obfuscated connections.

Regardless, these Johnsons (who are a minority, admittedly) have established themselves as reliable 'anonymizers' for employers in need of covert operatives. Word on the street is that their jobs are on the up-and-up, the pay scale is equitable and they don't brook any shit. Sounds like someone I'd work for.

This works to their advantage as well: they've built up a network of fixers who respect the fact that they're dealing with relatively honest businesspeople who can be relied on to honour contracts. In exchange, when a "shadow RFP" is sent out, the fixers don't hesitate to call up runners in their stables and pass along the job.

Everyone wins.
Nikoli
that is much better than the traditional Mr. johnson idea set in the first three editions. Though they could have just said that they are referred to as Mr. Johnson outside of the meet and in the text but the actual alias changes form Johnson to Johnson.
Birdy
QUOTE (Velocity)
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Just how does a Johnson gain a rep?
The Name Mr. Johnson protects them, in theory, from being known. There is no mechanic in the game to tell one Johnson from another prior to a face to face meet (even that is unreliable with magic)

To a large extent what you're saying is true, but there are exceptions. In the campaign I GM for instance, there's a few Johnsons who go by an actual name, eschewing the whole "Johnson" slang altogether. Now, the name they go by is an alias as well, but it's a steady alias connected to a steady face. Some of them are clearly known to the shadow community as being affiliated with a particular company, while others have more obfuscated connections.

Regardless, these Johnsons (who are a minority, admittedly) have established themselves as reliable 'anonymizers' for employers in need of covert operatives. Word on the street is that their jobs are on the up-and-up, the pay scale is equitable and they don't brook any shit. Sounds like someone I'd work for.

This works to their advantage as well: they've built up a network of fixers who respect the fact that they're dealing with relatively honest businesspeople who can be relied on to honour contracts. In exchange, when a "shadow RFP" is sent out, the fixers don't hesitate to call up runners in their stables and pass along the job.

Everyone wins.

Might also be a retirement position for a former PC Fixer and some other characters (as his bodyguards/drivers/researchers)

Sound interesting...


Birdy
Velocity
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Though they could have just said that they are referred to as Mr. Johnson outside of the meet and in the text but the actual alias changes form Johnson to Johnson.

That's pretty much how I handle it: no-one calls a Johnson "Johnson" to their face; it's a slang term used in conversation, but not something you actually say to the person you're dealing with. Most "Johnsons" are anonymous or use some other alias if they really need to.

The "chain of fixers" idea that birdy mentioned is also one I use in my game. It works like any subcontracting arrangement, with progressively smaller fish taking their bites out of the payoff until finally some arrives in the runners' pockets.
mmu1
QUOTE (Birdy)
As for the scientist: There is always another team to take the job unless the Mr. J is a total ideot (typically seen in the 24h rush job)

That's not really what I meant - I was still talking about the risks involved in killing a Johnson.

A highly competent corporate scientist is a very valuable employee - much more so than a typical Johnson. It's not unheard of for runners to get a job involving the kidnapping or killing of such a valuable asset, and such a job is not a death sentence, despite the amount of damage being done to a corportation. Why then, would killing a Johnson - who might be important but is actually more likely to simply be a low-level employee tasked with this sort of dirty work, or a prefessional face - pose such a huge threat to the runners? Sure, if they make a habit of killing Johnsons it'll make it rather hard to get work and eventually someone might take notice and react in a very negative way, but it's not a big deal in and of itself.

Once you get involved in the shadows, you're fair game, just like everyone else - that suit is not a magical cloak of invincibility.
Talia Invierno
Maybe make a distinction between the corporation being out to get you, and never working for that corporation (and possibly others, word-of-mouth) again?
Velocity
QUOTE (birdy)
Might also be a retirement position for a former PC Fixer and some other characters

Actually, one of the recurring NPCs in my campaign is a well-connected Johnson who used to run the shadows out east. She came to Seattle to "retire" to the relatively safe occupation of talent fixing: she's a link between corporate Johnsons and the streets. She's got a good rep: she's known to be professional, discrete and (as a former runner herself) not likely to intentionally knife the team she's working with. She's also a stickler for details and has a "my way or the highway" attitude which turns some runners off, but hey--perfection is as perfection does, right?
nezumi
Seems like J anonymity could go either way.

If the Johnson is purely anonymous, working through a series of fixers and virtual meeting places, he and his corp are safer. But the price is going to go way up (it's far pricier for a virtual meeting place, much less a chain of fixers, than the back room of your local drinking establishment.) The quality of runners will go down (sounds like a perfect backstab situation for me) and loyalty will diminish (how can you be loyal to someone you don't know?)

The guys who are willing to put themselves out on the street will get rep. Even if his pay is worse, it's safer and that alone means less work on the runner's side. I'd prefer to work for a Johnson who has a reputation on the line for $20k than for one who doesn't for $30k, everything else being equal.

Generally, the fixers in my game try to smooth things out on all sides. He tells as much as he can tell, even if it's that he can't tell anything. If the Johnson knows what the runners are like and what they're good at, he'll feel more confident that he's getting a good deal. If the runners know the guy has a reputation the fixer can back up (or the fixer has never seen him before, or even that the guy has a rep for betrayal) the runners will trust that fixer twice over. They'll refer more people to him and they're more likely to buy his stuff and follow his advice, maybe even put their own necks out for him once or twice. And if any side finds out the fixer knew an important detail he intentionally left out that cost the job or lives, he loses that business permanently.

Trust is someting earned, not freely given, and its worth more than gold. A fixer no one trusts is out of the job. A runner no one trusts is relegated to distractions and knee breakings. A Johnson no one trusts gets the desperate and insane. Doesn't work well for anyone.
Yoan
I don't know. I usually play low-key SR campaigns-- where the PCs begin as little above petty gangers in the food chain. Mohawks, tattoos and tattered armour jackets are in abundance. I find it incredibly boring, to begin as 'professional', high runners with Wired Reflexes 3 and a strong, strict set of rules/morales/guidelines. It all depends on the campaign. If the Jonhson is a top of the line Ares exec then ('Gunderson' VS. 'Vigore', for Genesis players), yeah, he won't be hiring low-class 'runners with no reputations or, uh, decent hair cuts.
Kagetenshi
I'm working on a longer, more in-depth reply, but I wanted to say a few things right quick:

Nezumi: loyalty is a non-starter. Corps have in-house teams and company men. The only reason the job will hit the street in the first place is if anonymity is more important than loyalty. The Johnsons aren't looking for it, the runners aren't giving it.

Talia: that's not a good distinction. I see no reason a corp that could even vaguely be described as "professional" would refuse to work with runners that offed one of their Johnsons, or for anyone else to. If they betrayed the Johnson they'll probably still work with them—they'll just get the Ares guy from Corporate Download's replacement. Only if they get a reputation for killing Johnsons at the meet for no particular reason will they be flat-out not dealt with, IMO. There's nothing to be gained and quite a bit to be lost any other way.

~J
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