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fistandantilus4.0
well.... at least it would be a suprise. "Happy Gencon day!"
.... maybe not...
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
You would think, with approaching six years of release schedules that in no way reflect reality, and lots of hand-waving and sheepish grins when products are released several months after their intended launch date, that a company would develop the ability to predict what they can and cannot accomplish in a set period of time. I've never been terribly forgiving of this practice, but it keeps getting worse. I know it isn't exactly lying, but it's still deceptive.


Well, one thing to remember is that release dates are not really intended for the general public. They are intended for the book trade. The public gets them mostly as a side effect. And the book trade doesn't get terribly upset about missed release dates, so the general standard (at least as far as I'm aware) is "I know you can't really judge if this date will be accurate this far in advance, but gimme something we can work with." The fans just tend to take the dates as gospel far more than anyone else does.

And then, of course, there are all the inevitable speedbumps during development. Of which there were many. Sometimes when I get the projected release dates, I see them as realistic, sometimes I don't. I know that when I first saw the projected release dates for SoA, SoLA, and System Failure, I didn't think it'd be a problem at all. Of course, I didn't know about SR4 at that time. As well as other problems that would crop up.

QUOTE
They'll release it, like, an hour or two before SR:4. That's a real gap-bridger. Brilliant. That'll be great. These guys are real pros.


Welcome to the way the print RPG industry works, especially with the smaller studios. I don't like it, I never have, and I often ask myself if it can be done better. But it's worked that way as long as I've been a part of it. At least so far I've managed to get paid for everything (though sometimes absurdly late). I think I'm the only person I know who has worked in the industry for awhile who can say that.

Also, remember to consider that even if both are at GenCon, doesn't mean both will hit the local stores at the same time.
blakkie
An industry example, Pinnacle made an announcement on their website 4 weeks before they planned to release the new edition of Deadlands, their "flagship" product. The document will be done and on hand to be read, they just won't have the retail copies back from the printers in time to sell.

07.26.05
Deadlands Delay
Regrettably, my first big announcement is a disappointing one. We hoped
to get Deadlands to you by GenCon. It isn't going to happen. As our flagship brand, Deadlands means a lot to us and everyone's expectations are high, so we have to make it as good as it can be. The product is superb, but it is a big book and there is a lot to get right before we release it.

Unfortunately, this means there is no way we can have it back in time to show it at Gen Con. We will have display copies for those who want to get a sneak preview of the book, and a special taster scenario to whet your appetites for the main course, so drop by and check out what the wait has been all about.
Grinder
Do you have a link for that?
Demonseed Elite
Yep, that sort of thing is normal in the industry. Another example being the upcoming release of White Wolf's "Mage: the Awakening" (and WW is a larger studio than FanPro, with actual in-house staff).

QUOTE
Said Philippe Boulle, Director of Marketing for White Wolf, We worked hard to get this book out for August 17th, but it was just too big and too important to rush. The added two weeks (and 80 extra pages) allowed us to make this the best game we knew how to make. We think fans and retailers will consider that a legitimate tradeoff.

Despite this minor delay, a limited number of copies of Mage: The Awakening will be available for purchase early at Gen Con Indy, the premier hobby-gaming convention in the United States. Gen Con will be held in Indianapolis, IN from August 18 to the 21st, and White Wolf will be selling 75 copies of Mage each day of the show and awarding a few additional copies as event prizes.
Eldritch
Well if that sort of thing is 'normal' for the industry - How come fanpro didn't take that route?

The whole release schedule + Sr4 seems very rushed - to us and to some of the playtesters that have posted these last few months.

Sounds to me like these decsions are being made because of $$. I mean if these books are done, then Fanpro just needs to pay to have them printed. They probably only have X dollars to play with and decided that Sr4 would generate more $$ quicker than any source books would. Thus enabling them to turn around and get those other books published.

Now, I'm not berating them for making printing descisions becuase of $$, but come on man - they had to have seen the writing on the wall when they first put pen to paper for SR4. Especially taking their track record into account.

I realize that all of this is moot at this point - the decisions made, and the trigger pulled. But Shadowrun cannot survive if it is continually run like this.
Jrayjoker
Shadowrun will survive this and any other glitch that occurs as long as it is not beyond what is considered "normal" in the industry. The hype is tied into the GenCon release, but the sales will be measured over the years, not one week (a glorious week though it may be).
Demonseed Elite
It isn't quite that simple as just paying to have them printed. The writing may be finished, but there's more to do between writing and printing. There's editing and layout. But keep in mind that many of the same freelancers who usually do the editing and layout for the normal product releases (Elissa, Adam, Michelle, etc.) were on the dev team for SR4, doing tons of writing. Not to mention most (if not all of them) don't work for FanPro exclusively. Note the delay with SoA because Adam was swamped with GenCon deadline releases for other companies. Add into that the fact that Shadowrun lost a lot of freelancers in the FASA-->FanPro changeover (including me, I only recently came back after a couple years away) and added a lot of new freelancers that you can't easily put into higher-responsibility roles because they are still relatively unproven.

I absolutely think some better choices could have been made in the management along the way, but there are some very messy realities that can't be avoided easily.
SL James
QUOTE (JongWK)
QUOTE (Eldritch @ Aug 9 2005, 04:00 PM)
Are you implying that Fanpro's only market are those that buy everything with Shadowrun printerd on it??

No, I'm saying that it is possible that FanPro chose to release SoA over SF because it could sell better.

That's not what you said. You said

QUOTE
QUOTE
At least I'd buy System Failure. I have no intention of purchasing Shadows of Asia even if I did have the luxury of being able to continue buying books just because they were Shadowrun.
Then you're not the market FanPro aims for. Simple as that.


You're a published freelancer. You should know better, and the fact that what you wrote and what you meant were about a thousand miles apart from each other makes it so much worse for so many reasons.
JongWK
Let me see...

You said you had no intention of buying SoA. I said that in that case you were not the market FanPro's aiming at with that book. When someone asked if I was implying that FanPro's only aiming at those who buy all the books, I said no, that it might be that SoA was released before SF because it could sell better.



I don't see what you're talking about.



By the way, be civil. I don't know you, and I don't know if I want to know you, but I know that going around insulting people is a sure way to be ignored by others. sarcastic.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Grinder)
Do you have a link for that?

http://www.peginc.com/

Scroll down to the forth news entry.
Eldritch
QUOTE (JongWK)
Let me see...

You said you had no intention of buying SoA. I said that in that case you were not the market FanPro's aiming at with that book. When someone asked if I was implying that FanPro's only aiming at those who buy all the books, I said no, that it might be that SoA was released before SF because it could sell better.



I don't see what you're talking about.



By the way, be civil. I don't know you, and I don't know if I want to know you, but I know that going around insulting people is a sure way to be ignored by others. sarcastic.gif

I translated it the same way Jong; that since he was not buying all the books he was not - in your opinion - Fanpros target.

Thats how it came across, thats why a few of us got upset. If that's not what you meant, then thats cool.

Point is, we are still Fanpros audience - wether we can afford all the books, or if we have to pick and choose.
mfb
i am a fan of FanPro's SR3 work.
blakkie
edit: No, it appears that i am the one lost. indifferent.gif
hermit
Personally, as I don't GM a lot in my current group, I'm wondering whether I will buy SF. I am CERTAIN I will buy SoA, though.

Adventure modules are for one member/gaming group, the GM, and him only, in case the group wants to actually use the book, that is. However, background books are for everyone (like rule books). Hence, bigger potential market share. Bigger seller. Will get FanPro the money it needs to produce SF and other low-selling products.

Can't see what's inherently wrong with that, other than if you plan to switch to SR4 the second it is shown at GenCon booths, that is.
Slacker
I don't plan to switch the second it hits the GenCon booths, but I do plan to switch as soon as I have learned the new system.
Without any idea of when System Failure will be out, my guess is that I will have learned the new system before SF is released. Therefore, I will most likely not be buying it.

So back to my original point, by releasing System Failure, which is designed to end the SR3 system, after the SR4 system is out will reduce the already small market for the product. Hence, this decision will almost certainly mean FanPro will either be at a loss on the product, or at most get some miniscule amount of profit.

People will buy the Shadows of series books after SR4 is out because they are content books. System Failure's sales were already going to be small, but with it being released after SR4, they will be even smaller and that doesn't leave much of a chance for profit on it.

Priority should have been set on System Failure over Shadows of Asia to be release prior to SR4 for the simple fact that there will be less effect on the sale of Shadows of Asia due to the release of SR4.
Jrayjoker
<Shrug> I guess I want to own them all...kinda like Pokemon.
JongWK
QUOTE
I translated it the same way Jong; that since he was not buying all the books he was not - in your opinion - Fanpros target. 

Thats how it came across, thats why a few of us got upset.  If that's not what you meant, then thats cool.


Ok, I see it now. I didn't mean that, but this what happens when you try short answers. while at work. talker.gif

QUOTE
Point is, we are still Fanpros audience - wether we can afford all the books, or if we have to pick and choose.


Of course you are. My point, obscure as it might have been, is that SoA has a broader appeal than SF (and some here have already backed this). James said he had no intention at all to buy it, even if he had the money. Thus, he's not what FanPro's looking for when it releases it, right?
hermit
QUOTE
I don't plan to switch the second it hits the GenCon booths, but I do plan to switch as soon as I have learned the new system.
Without any idea of when System Failure will be out, my guess is that I will have learned the new system before SF is released. Therefore, I will most likely not be buying it.

I cannot quite follow that logic. Do you mean you will enforce a switch (out of the blue, mainly) as soon as you have learned the new rules? So your campaign isn't too much into consistency and compliance with the official timeline, I guess? Well, then of course SF isn't for you anyway.

I see no reason why you have to switch systems so soon. If SF is out only one month or two after GenCon, who gives? I guess you have your own plotlines to wrap up before switching too (and, I guess, redo all characters or make brand-new ones). *shrug*

I for one am certain we will play SF, if only because it is pretty much a follow-up on Brainscan, where we right now are in the finals. Then again, I also know for a fact my group will not switch to SR4 for the forseeable future, not until we have wrapped up the other three major story arcs besides Brainscan, everyone has read into the rules and everyone agrees they are likeable (I think they will be, but I am not the only one whose opinion matters). Hell, we switched from SR2 to SR3 only as late as in 2003!

QUOTE
So back to my original point, by releasing System Failure, which is designed to end the SR3 system, after the SR4 system is out will reduce the already small market for the product. Hence, this decision will almost certainly mean FanPro will either be at a loss on the product, or at most get some miniscule amount of profit.

Sure, it might well sell even worse then. But that doesn't change the bare numbers that SoA would sell better.
Demonseed Elite
There's something else important to keep in mind. System Failure's format isn't rules-heavy. It's not like, say, Brainscan. There's really no reason a group that has picked up SR4 couldn't also pick up System Failure in the same day and use it.

I mean, sure, the SR4 core book's setting takes place after the events in System Failure. But groups hop around all the time. We've got people here still running RA:S events, hell, people still like to play with Bug City stuff. Even with the Matrix changes, the rules in SR4 support the use of old-style decking, so it's still entirely feasible.

Totally honestly here, and I'm not trying to sell the book or anything, if I were a new SR player starting with SR4, I'd pick up System Failure as a starting point for ideas for characters. The events in SF are perfect for explaining why some characters might have been forced into the shadows, where they start their new lives in 2070.
Birdy
QUOTE (Slacker)
I don't plan to switch the second it hits the GenCon booths, but I do plan to switch as soon as I have learned the new system.
Without any idea of when System Failure will be out, my guess is that I will have learned the new system before SF is released. Therefore, I will most likely not be buying it.

So back to my original point, by releasing System Failure, which is designed to end the SR3 system, after the SR4 system is out will reduce the already small market for the product. Hence, this decision will almost certainly mean FanPro will either be at a loss on the product, or at most get some miniscule amount of profit.

People will buy the Shadows of series books after SR4 is out because they are content books. System Failure's sales were already going to be small, but with it being released after SR4, they will be even smaller and that doesn't leave much of a chance for profit on it.

Priority should have been set on System Failure over Shadows of Asia to be release prior to SR4 for the simple fact that there will be less effect on the sale of Shadows of Asia due to the release of SR4.

I disagree here. Quite a few gamers won't switch within the next 12-18 month since they'll wait for the necessary sourcebooks to come out.

Add in that more than a few groups follow a campaign and need time to work up to 2070 as well as the fact that one of the major markets (Germany) won't get their version of SR4 for another 3-4 month.

So I doubt SystemFailure would suffer as much.

Birdy
Slacker
QUOTE
Sure, it might well sell even worse then. But that doesn't change the bare numbers that SoA would sell better.


I am not arguing with that. All i am saying is that SoA's sales won't be all that much affected by the release of SR4, while System Failure's sales will be adversely affected, so why not put priority on System Failure being released prior to SR4 instead of SoA?

As far as my campaign goes, I have pretty much timed it so that its end would coincide with GenCon to make the switch to SR4 smoothly. If System Failure was out I would be able to run the group through that now and while I am learning SR4.

Besides my players have already been talking about wanting to just create new characters for SR4 rather than hassling with converting them. I just would have like to have System Failure to finish out the SR3 campaign and explain the transition to SR4 as I believe it is designed to do.
Wireknight
Even if System Failure is in a format similar to Renraku Arcology: Shutdown, rather than Brainscan, the timeline is being warped. While a sourcebook describing the world (or a subsection thereof) might be revised slightly to account for a later place in the timeline than originally anticipated, a book that is built upon a single event can be less easily edited to keep the timeline moving in a consistently forward fashion.
Shadow
QUOTE (Birdy @ Aug 11 2005, 05:49 AM)
I disagree here. Quite a few gamers won't switch within the next 12-18 month since they'll wait for the necessary sourcebooks to come out.


Thats funny that you should say that. Since one of SR4's selling points is that you don't need any other books to play Shadowrun. But all of us hardcore 'Runners know that the SRcomp4, Magic, Cyber, and Guns books for 4 ed might as well be part of the core package.
Birdy
QUOTE (Shadow)
QUOTE (Birdy @ Aug 11 2005, 05:49 AM)
I disagree here. Quite a few gamers won't switch within the next 12-18 month since they'll wait for the necessary sourcebooks to come out.


Thats funny that you should say that. Since one of SR4's selling points is that you don't need any other books to play Shadowrun. But all of us hardcore 'Runners know that the SRcomp4, Magic, Cyber, and Guns books for 4 ed might as well be part of the core package.

So what is new. I can actually play CP 2020 or Twilight 2000 V2.2 (as opposed to SR3) with only the basic book and I won't lack any special rules. Same for quite a few other games. I still consider(ed) the add-ons usefull and needed for the additional wealth in information, equipment and ideas they gave me and the work they did for me. So much in fact that I went to great length to insure a steady flow of "CHALLENGE" magazins back when GDW still was alive. God, I miss that magazine.

So SR4 will work "barebones" if you are willing to do a LOT of work yourself and miss quite a few toys. Since the latter may hurt my preferred classes, I'll wait at least until the relevant books are out (Cyber, Guns, Matrix, Rigger) before even thinking about a switch.

There is no "foul play" in it, it's the exchange every game company offers: Money vs. Time. Since I can get money easier than time, I buy additional books and use the "canon" world.

Birdy

Sir Randel
Any news on System Failure and Shadows of Latin America ?
Even if, with the Beresina of the SR4 pdf release, i don't expect any.
Jürgen Hubert
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 9 2005, 07:11 PM)
FUCK FANPRO

Having been on this board for less than a month and a half, your position was becoming more and more clear as the opinion and perspective of Fanpro and the freelancer community, but I appreciate that you finally just admitted it.

I'm not a fanboy. I never will be.

If you truly were no fanboy, then you wouldn't get so obsessed over this.

Admit it to yourself. You are a fanboy.
SL James
I'm not obsessed. I saw an affront to my role as customer made by someone saying the seller wasn't interested in my business.

That's not about being a fanboy. That's about thinking that if a business thought like that, then they would and should deserve to lose customers.

But I already said on the SR4 forum that I am now glad this book hasn't been released after seeing what happened to California. I can live without that, thank you.
Critias
So, anyone at Gencon got a status update on this book?

Or, uhh, are they releasing an SR3 product after SR4?
blakkie
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 18 2005, 04:02 PM)
I'm not obsessed. I saw an affront to my role as customer made by someone saying the seller wasn't interested in my business.

That's not about being a fanboy. That's about thinking that if a business thought like that, then they would and should deserve to lose customers.

But I already said on the SR4 forum that I am now glad this book hasn't been released after seeing what happened to California. I can live without that, thank you.

Yet you just...can't....stop....posting on the SR4 board? rotfl.gif
SL James
I like to hold out some scintilla of hope.

May I also suggest a less eye-burning color next time you try to make a point?
Grinder
This red was really hurting...
blakkie
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 18 2005, 05:26 PM)
I like to hold out some scintilla of hope.

rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif

Oh ya, you are no fanboi at all. No, you are Angsty Stalker Fanboi.


QUOTE
May I also suggest a less eye-burning color next time you try to make a point?


You may.
Critias
Keep it up, Blakkie. Don't post on the topic at hand, don't argue anyone's points, don't comment on the subject anyone else is commenting on -- just call people names, but do it in defense, rather than criticism, of SR4 so that you don't get in trouble.

*big thumbs up* Way to be.
blakkie
QUOTE (Critias)
Keep it up, Blakkie. Don't post on the topic at hand, don't argue anyone's points, don't comment on the subject anyone else is commenting on -- just call people names, but do it in defense, rather than criticism, of SR4 so that you don't get in trouble.

*big thumbs up* Way to be.

The thread topic seems to have shifted there somehow, so i think you are talking to the wrong person. biggrin.gif
SFEley
Meanwhile, I'm starting my new Shadowrun campaign in a week. It'll be an SR3 campaign. Set in 2056.

Anyone care to guess how much stress I feel at FanPro's release schedule?

Not trying to balance myself on the bleeding, groaning edge of the game world was a conscious decision for me. System Failure or no, it'll be at least a year, maybe two, before SR4 is adequately supported with all the accessories for experienced GMs to make a smooth knowledge transition. Until then a lot of people trying to convert are going to be stressing out over 'ware or setting details that aren't in the core book, or else they'll simply split from the canon.

By setting my campaign retro, I have a huge wealth of material to pick and choose from, including old adventures and story arcs I've run for other groups. I'm sure I'll eventually pick up SR4 and look at it, but I feel no urge to jump into it; if I ever use it it'll be a methodical, comfortable transition into a supported and proven product.

And I'll be able to pretend that System Failure came out first. >8->
blakkie
QUOTE (SFEley @ Aug 19 2005, 10:53 AM)
Meanwhile, I'm starting my new Shadowrun campaign in a week.  It'll be an SR3 campaign.  Set in 2056.

Anyone care to guess how much stress I feel at FanPro's release schedule? 

Not trying to balance myself on the bleeding, groaning edge of the game world was a conscious decision for me.  System Failure or no, it'll be at least a year, maybe two, before SR4 is adequately supported with all the accessories for experienced GMs to make a smooth knowledge transition.  Until then a lot of people trying to convert are going to be stressing out over 'ware or setting details that aren't in the core book, or else they'll simply split from the canon. 

By setting my campaign retro, I have a huge wealth of material to pick and choose from, including old adventures and story arcs I've run for other groups.  I'm sure I'll eventually pick up SR4 and look at it, but I feel no urge to jump into it; if I ever use it it'll be a methodical, comfortable transition into a supported and proven product. 

And I'll be able to pretend that System Failure came out first.  >8->

Ya, even though the SR4 BBB has a lot more 'advanced' stuff in it than the SR3 BBB (like Initiation w/a few basic metamagics, bioware, Athletics rules, edges & flaws, some critters, etc.) if you try to bridge over an entire existing highlevel team with piece-by-piece accuracy you'll be home-rolling stats for a lot of equipment, metamagic, etc.

Starting a new campaign in SR4 though should work ok, as long as you aren't a group that advances PCs quickly IRL time.
Sir Randel
So any news from GENCON concerning SoLA & SF ?
the_dunner
SoLA will most likely see PDF release at some point in the next few months. Notice all the contingencies/vague statements there? They're there for a reason. There are no plans for a hardcopy release, just the PDF, and it's not a high priority.

I arrived at the seminar late, but was told second hand that there was POD order placed for System Failure to have it at GenCon. The printer fell through. (Apparently, FanPro US has gone through 5 printers in the past two years.) Based on that, I'd guess (this is me guessing from something I heard second hand) that it'll hit distribution in late September to early October.
Sir Randel
Ok, Thanks.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Sir Randel)
Any news on System Failure

The German SR homepage has a short preview-PDF online titled "Allgemeine Schutzverletzung" (in English "General Protection Fault"). It's an excerpt from the German add-on chapter to System Failure.
According to this the Crash 2.0 happened on November 2, 2064.
blakkie
QUOTE (M$T1C)
QUOTE (Sir Randel)
Any news on System Failure

The German SR homepage has a short preview-PDF online titled "Allgemeine Schutzverletzung" (in English "General Protection Fault"). It's an excerpt from the German add-on chapter to System Failure.
According to this the Crash 2.0 happened on November 2, 2064.

WTF? In SR the stock exchange is open on Sundays, and Novatech is choosing that day of the week to float their IPO?
Grinder
Bah, written by the stupid childish german anarchists. I'll buy the english version, hopefully it won't contain that childish stuff.
Penta
Ah, but remember. The German Anarchists' stuff is still canon, so you (probably) need to know it anyway.
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