The untrained are the entire reason firearms were invented.

~J

Ya, well that celebrating Afgan wedding party was apparently shooting at those USAF fighter jets too before they were bombed to hell and back.

Sometimes observation mistakes are made, and when you hear/see gunshots is it damn unnerving. *shrug*

EDIT: This of course does not preclude the very real possibility of truth of any given report of a chopper being shot, for whatever reason. Attention, anger, sun boiled brain, just general dumbass, etc.

I would like to think that the governor's comments were a result of extreme stress and righteous indignation at an untennable situation. The lawlesness is not appropriate and should be dealt with, but I hope the troops have a great deal of restraint if attacked.

That being said, if they are attacked they should use any means appropriate and necessary to respond and subdue the attackers.

Really, who in their right mind is going to try and take pot shots at a squad of combat vets?

Uh...Somalis, Talibanis, Baathists, terrorists...the list goes on. Granted, I think these folks probably value their lives less (or value American deaths more) than the shooters in NO, but the chance of retaliation in NO is so much less. No UAVs, no air support, no armor, no intel, all in a purely defensive position. Are troops going to wade into the waters to flush out a den of shooters? Are troops going to call in an airstrike in a US city to take out a sniper? Would you say the risk of collateral (and political) damage is higher conducting combat operations off the French Quarter versus say Mosul?

People will either look at anarchy as an opportunity or as a menace.

Reminds me of a question posed by my brother after Hurricane Andrew: "If you knew for certain that you would never be punished or caught, would you loot?"

Without hesitation, I said no, but before people start going "I would never steal anything because I can", just think of the justifications given for music/software piracy (e.g. not enough money, just want to try it out, the companies are rich anyway). And these justifications are much weaker than the ones that can be claimed in NO (survival). Even though there is a definite demarcation between people's moralities in the physical world vs. the online world, the online world is effectively anarchy.

In some instances, some folks pirate just because they can--just like those folks in NO who are looting big screen TVs (what are you gonna do with that without electricity?).

Likely the feelings most of us have against these gangs/anarchists reflect the feelings most people in the SR world have against runners. Perhaps people can take their rage against the looters in NO and better roleplay Lone Star or corporate security or corporate hackers. Because as runners, you're taking shots at the equivalent of hospitals or law-abiding people or stealing private property.

That assumes all people having a right mind under very stressful situations. Same can be said about looting for food & water. As the precieved chance of living or dieing rises you are going to see the levels of value people put on the morales of theft. Especially when you start getting "i'm just borrowing, i intend to pay back" or "this stuff is gonna go to waste anyway" or the highly dubious but always popular "he's doing it, if i don't get me some it's all gone anyway".

TheOneRonin's quote of the Govennor mentions that too.

I don't know, i'm thinking i'd rather have experience than green in there and trust that the extra little bit of caution that they'll have knowing it is a fellow countryman at the end of the barrel will be enough.

It has always been, over the long run, a high probability senario for a huge hurricane to landfall there. A bit weaker one and the leeves might have been able to hold, but cat 5 hurricanes do happen in the Gulf with a scary regularity.

I landfell at Cat 4 though, right? I thought it had slowed up a few hours before the core of it hit? It's hard for a hurricane to maintain top form when it starts passing over land of any significant size (as opposed to some poor little island).

So they are coming in without any downtime? Er, if so ya that could be a bad scene. Especially with the folks that had their time overseas greatly extended. Have supplies started coming into your area? Or are their road problems yet?

Yeah, Katrina was a Cat 4 when it hit, but that's still over what the levees have been rated for. And it wasn't long on lad before it dropped to a Cat 3, but it was just long enough.

From what I have heard, yeah, these guys are being pulled straight from Iraq. No downtime whatsoever.

I can't comment on supplies, but the roads here (Baton Rouge) are beyond capacity. Since we are the nearest functional metropolitan area to New Orleans, we are playing host to most of the refugees...and not only people from New Orleans, but the surrounding areas like Mandeville and Slidell. In fact, many of those people are coming into Baton Rouge for gasoline, food, and supplies, then heading out back to their homes. I haven't gotten any word of any shortages yet, but we are just about the only place you can find gasoline within 60 miles west of New Orleans.

Kent State anyone? I believe that anyone who attacks armed troops deserves what they get, but the governor’s quotes are worrisome.

While I am all for stopping the anarchy and getting the refugees out, I think we should all watch this very carefully. This has the possibility of setting some bad precedents when it comes to using the US military in times of crisis.

Let me get this straight, you'd rather there be rapists and looters than people stopping rapists and looters? Just checking.

...Wow, you entirely missed what I said, didn't you?

I said that I would rather there be dead rapists and looters than rape victims and burned-out/emptied stores.

Such short memories. Such gunho reactions ended up getting a [increasingly innocent looking] Brazilian shot on the London Underground what, a month ago?

Completely 100% innocent, actually. Work visa in order, travel papers up to date, no criminal record, sent money home to support aging parents. Absolutely zero links to anything more serious than a parking ticket. Jean Charles de Menezes was totally innocent.

Amen.

The problem is when they come upon the grey between. Grey like a latino that one glance at his photo, even by a pasty white boy like me, is entirely distiquishable from being from anywhere in Asia. Someone who's actions can be mistaken if you assume some key facts that are untrue.

Hey, send in the military. Damn straight. But revving up the gungho rhetoric like is not only is possibily going to over hype the Marines. These guys are pros, or at least semi-pros that have been doing a pro's job, and i'd hope that their CO's are going to be able to amplify any orders from above to motivate them. But it will also do severe damage to any attempt at public relations if someone that likely shouldn't get shot does.

P.S. The people that are vaguely smart [truely dangerous] have likely been watching getting ready to melt like butter into the background once a full fledged, mobile force shows up. You think they are going to try hold territory when platoons of AR toting soilders trained to work/fight in these kinds of conditions start rolling into town in force?

Semper Fi. Those people who prey on the weak and the helpless are exactly the kind of people who need to get a bullet to the brain pan. Defending the weak and the helpless is what this country is about. And if I need to buy a frickin SKS and stockpile 2000 rounds of ammo to do it I should be allowed to.

How long did it take civilization to break down? 1 day? 2 on the outside? It will be another two weeks before it is restored. I feel for the people who are trapped their with the lunatics. I only wish they ALL had guns to defend themselves.

Yeah, Lt. General Honore, who is in charge of the military effort, called the N.O. Chief of Police his "battle commander", so it sounds like the civilan police are ultimately in charge.

And the word from the reporters on site at the Convention Center has been clear that Lt. General Honore has been moving up and down the line of National Guard telling them to shoulder their weapons, that there will be no firing, and that it is a humanitarian relief effort, not Iraq.

Fuck public relations. People need to stop fucking shooting at support choppers, people need to not mob-hump trucks with supplies, people need to not shoot at National Guardsmen and cops and EMTs and firefighters. People need to not burn down their city, rape and murder young girls at knifepoint, and go apeshit fucking nuts because a nasty storm rolled through.

Send amphibious carriers through first. They'll be able to move however/wherever is needed. Keep 'em closed up tight, or let 'em stay open but be bristling with unshaven Marines carrying loaded weapons with orders only to shoot if fired upon. Have a psychological operations specialist (or just a gunny) aboard each one, with a megaphone (or just a gunny voice), stating loudly and clearly over and over again that in one hours' time they will come back, and anyone on the streets and impeding the progress of emergency vehicles through action, inaction, implied threat, gunfire, or even just screaming obscenities will get bloodied up by the Corp like Tina Turner by Ike.

One hour later, roll in with the supplies that need to get to wherever they need to get to, the choppers for airlifting those that need it, the water trucks, the empty trucks for carrying people out of their, and the boy scout troops to give people MREs, a bottle of gatorade, and help them pitch a fucking tent. If people -- people as warned an hour previously -- impede this progress, shoot them like you would any other terrorist.

Boom. Problem solved.

And, yes. The "truly dangerous" ones will melt away when the men in green show up. That's fine. I'd prefer they stick around and get their barbaric asses killed, but if they just leave -- fine. They won't hold the territory any more -- fine. They're not in the fucking way any more, are they? So the job still gets done. That's what counts.

Ya, i hope. I just find it disturbing that that is coming from a Gov...and people are supporting it. It was my -exact- first reaction when the fellow was shot in London, even though the first "eye witness" stuff coming out said it was righteous, and a mayor was spouting the similar gungho rhetoric.

Now where she'll sit in the effective chain of command is not apparent. But if something goes wrong there is what people will see, and it might not all be perception.

I mean watching in a somewhat passive sense, and i was under the impression that cell coverage is still operating. If you have a car charger for your phone, and there are still some cars that are electrically functioning, they will have communications.

I also assumed that the Marines aren't going to come in all sneaky like. If they are there to restore order (as opposed to trying to catch people in the act) they are going to come in with a flury. Making big noise to let people, good and bad, know that the big dog is back and order WILL be restored. Or is that a bad assumption on my part?

I makes me smile to see so many people so willing to help during this crisis. Plan B, the best thing you and your husband can do is contact the Red Cross. Honestly, the most needed donation right now is money. Sending supplies is a bad idea because they keep getting all different kinds of items that they have to sort, check, and stage. With cash, they can get supplies in bulk, which will arrive when and where they need them to be. If you want to give to any organization more specific, shoot me an e-mail and I will help you find what you are looking for.

Sorry bro, but it's worse than you think. Cell coverage is spotty at best, and only about 30% of calls are getting through, and that's here in Baton Rouge where we still have most of our towers. In and around NO, cell coverage is borderline non-existant...and even if you get a signal, you are not likely to be able to make any calls due to network congestion.

We (my company) are at the point where we have to use land lines for almost everything because of the unreliablity of cells.

Is territory what the bandits (let's stop using "looter") want? The "thunder run" concept worked initially in Somalia and Iraq, but ran into troubles later. Are we going to treat the bandits like an urban insurgency?

It might be hyperbole or the anger talking, but since we don't shoot people in Afghanistan or Iraq for screaming obscenities at troops (do we?), why would we treat US citizens worse? Or is that the psyops?

[smartass] So if I needed assistance, all I would need to do is shoot at a chopper, hide in my house, and wait one hour after the Bradleys roll to get food, water, shelter, and possible rescue?

Wouldn't alot of people in NO find that a fantastic deal? [/smartass]

That is a reasonable assumption, but that sort of show of force (emphasis on show) may also be unlikely due to pr concerns. It is notable that a large amount of Bush's constituencency is affected and a larger amount will be watching closely; he and his administration may step a bit lighter than they would otherwise.

Moreover, there may not be manpower left for that sort of thing; a very sizable portion of our military is currently sandier.

Back on 9/11, I had a heck of a time using my cell that day to contact my family/friends. I worked less than a mile from the Pentagon at the time, so I can only imagine the situation in NO. Even with all the cell towers in working order there was such a congestion.

I wonder how many towers are working in NO.

I guess I got my chance. Any of you that work for state or federal agencies may get something similar, I encourage you all to do what you can.