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mmu1
Mhmm... "Liberation of Poland" - I knew if I looked long enough, I'd find the one thing I liked among the changes they were making to the world. wink.gif
Synner
QUOTE (Ellery @ Sep 1 2005, 07:22 PM)
QUOTE (Synner)
Keep in mind who says those things in context.

*cough*

Those are all in the Game Information. It's OOC. Page 29, last paragraph, left column.


What I meant was that the authors were different. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

QUOTE
It's nice that the magical part of the weapons didn't do much, apparently.  If the magical part was irrelevant, though, why advertise the magical nature on the introductory page?

For the record the magical "component" partially transforms/converts destructive radiation and explosive power to enhance the otherwise limited EMP effect of the tactical nukes (so as to allow them to overcome the Sixth World's hardened electronics) with the very specific goal of knocking out critical Matrix global traffic hubs and neutering the Dissonance worm and AIs (what Winternight is trying to accomplish when they helped plant the worm in the first place is explained in Fall of Night).

If you read his post hahnsoo was specifically comparing the damage of these strikes with the overall global damage caused by the worm that proceeded them. The nine cities hit are severely damaged by the EMPs. And then there's the matter of the 3 fault line nukes that can't be reached in time...

For those of you having difficulty swallowing the fact that Winternight possesses this many nuclear devices consider that they have been collecting nuclear devices since the EuroWars and their network has infiltrated governments and megacorps. Go back over Secrets of Power, Threats, Target: Smuggler Havens, Cyberpirates, Wake of the Comet, Target: Wastelands, SOTA:64 and even Shadows of Asia and add up the times you've been told there are unaccounted warheads out there. Some of the sources are listed in System Failure others like many elements of Winternight's plan have seeded through out recent books.
SL James
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (Jürgen Hubert @ Sep 1 2005, 06:47 AM)
[ Spoiler ]

[ Spoiler ]


[ Spoiler ]
Ellery
QUOTE (Synner)
For the record the magical "component" partially transforms/converts destructive radiation and explosive power to enhance the otherwise limited EMP effect of the tactical nukes (so as to allow them to overcome the Sixth World's hardened electronics) with the very specific goal of knocking out critical Matrix global traffic hubs and neutering the Dissonance worm and AIs (what Winternight is trying to accomplish when they helped plant the worm in the first place is explained in Fall of Night).

. . .

And then there's the matter of the 3 fault line nukes that can't be reached in time...

Being smashed to bits is a pretty good way to destroy a Matrix global traffic hub. It's pretty odd that magic would be particularly effective at converting that much energy into an EM pulse, but even if one could accept that, it's hard to understand why they need that to accomplish their objective--or even why they need nuclear weapons at all. How big are these hubs supposed to be?

Also, despite Hollywood imaginings to the contrary, nuclear weapons don't do too terribly much to fault lines. How do we know, given that we haven't blown up a lot of nuclear weapons in fault lines? Well, earthquakes happen on fault lines, and somehow they manage not to trigger more earthquakes nearby on the fault, despite having much more energy than a nuclear weapon and being right there.

If the earthquake was about to happen anyway, then maybe it'd be triggered a little early, but even a nuclear explosion doesn't do much to reduce the friction between square miles of pressed-together rock.

Anyway, you'd do a lot more damage just setting off the nuke aboveground in the most sensitive location in the area. Most buildings are pretty earthquake-resistant, but not nuclear-bomb-resistant.
Sabosect
So, in essense, my earlier speculations about exploding magic were close to the truth?
Synner
QUOTE (Ellery @ Sep 1 2005, 09:25 PM)
QUOTE (Synner @ Sep 1 2005, 04:08 PM)
For the record the magical "component" partially transforms/converts destructive radiation and explosive power to enhance the otherwise limited EMP effect of the tactical nukes (so as to allow them to overcome the Sixth World's hardened electronics) with the very specific goal of knocking out critical Matrix global traffic hubs and neutering the Dissonance worm and AIs (what Winternight is trying to accomplish when they helped plant the worm in the first place is explained in Fall of Night).

Being smashed to bits is a pretty good way to destroy a Matrix global traffic hub. It's pretty odd that magic would be particularly effective at converting that much energy into an EM pulse, but even if one could accept that, it's hard to understand why they need that to accomplish their objective--or even why they need nuclear weapons at all. How big are these hubs supposed to be?

The problem seems to be that you are thinking in terms of strategic nuclear weapon power whereas the stuff Winternight is using for the EMP bombs are small tactical warheads and suitcase nukes in the very low kiloton range.

[ Spoiler ]

QUOTE
Also, despite Hollywood imaginings to the contrary, nuclear weapons don't do too terribly much to fault lines.  How do we know, given that we haven't blown up a lot of nuclear weapons in fault lines?  Well, earthquakes happen on fault lines, and somehow they manage not to trigger more earthquakes nearby on the fault, despite having much more energy than a nuclear weapon and being right there.
If the earthquake was about to happen anyway, then maybe it'd be triggered a little early, but even a nuclear explosion doesn't do much to reduce the friction between square miles of pressed-together rock.
Anyway, you'd do a lot more damage just setting off the nuke aboveground in the most sensitive location in the area.  Most buildings are pretty earthquake-resistant, but not nuclear-bomb-resistant.

There have been serious studies into "nuclear resonance triggers for tectonic shifts" (ie. earthquake bombs) in both the US and Russia since the 1960's. Moscow actually carried out controlled detonations with measurable results in the Far Eastern provinces (causing much tension with the Chinese). The technology was actually studied as a last ditch defensive measure in case of mass invasion only (the problem being delivery in almost any other circumstances renders it useless). Obviously such devices require pinpoint placement in tectonic stress points and particular bedrock compositions for the shockwave to carry and echo and obviously it's never been field tested - but that doesn't mean its not out there for a crazy doomsday cult to hear about and decided it would work... especially if it fits prophecy.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Sabosect)
So, in essense, my earlier speculations about exploding magic were close to the truth?

Nah.
Shadow
I just finished skimming it and I have to say I think I got my moneys worth. $18US for 130 pages of fiction. A lot of it very good, some very interesting stories and reveals. There are even several adventure outlines that span a few days of the events.

Poor poor Dankwalther eek.gif

It doesn't span the time till 2070, just till the middle of 2066. A lot of it is from NT's perspective which is cool cause they are my fav Mega (I was a little worried in the beginning). It has a MASSIVE conspiracy which has spanned 10 or so books come to a close, not without igniting new ones though.

Unfortunately I don't see how much of this is going to be relevant in 2070? I mean I don't have links in my games back to Bug City or anything like that. Playing retro games during the crash could be cool, but everyone knows how they pan out.

There are some familiar faces in the shadow community in there (AH, Clock, and Synner to name a few) and overall I really like the book. A little bummed that I am not in it biggrin.gif

The PDF itself is well done (kudos Adam) and is easily searchable, quotable etc. Skimming it was easier than if I had the book with me and it prints out real clean. Again, overall I am very happy with the book. Now if I could just get my hardcopy of the SR4 rules (hopefully after they fix the horrendous editing problem spotted int eh LE and PDF) I could start looking at it.
Ellery
Tactical nukes are going to do about as much to a fault as a toothpick will do to a marble statue.

I still don't see the point of using magic, but if it makes them happy, that's fine. The precedent that magic can do a lot with even kilotons of explosive power is a little peculiar, given how many orders of magnitude lower than that is the maximum for even skilled practitioners of normal magic.

As far as resonance this-and-that goes, Tesla was fond of such things, and he was a bright guy, but he didn't always pay enough attention to damping, and you don't get much "resonance" out of a single nuclear explosion. You get an impulse function, not a periodic function at a frequency matching the intrinsic frequency of the bedrock.
Sabosect
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Sep 1 2005, 04:43 PM)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 1 2005, 09:29 PM)
So, in essense, my earlier speculations about exploding magic were close to the truth?

Nah.

It's about the only way that we can get a reliable explosion of the size we're talking about with the amount of magic we're talking about. The other possibility is my speculation that the magically-enhanced conversion simply converted the matter into energy and used the energy to fuel itself. In the first case, we're talking massive radiation. In the second case, we're talking physics being anally raped by an elephant marching band.

Either way, alcohol logic works well.
Ancient History
You're working under a few miconceptions here, methinks.
JongWK
QUOTE (SL James)
So SR4 is completely effed up in its description? I'm shocked.

No, there's a mistake in the timeline. The fiction story puts Pro-Term President Gene Simone in charge. Daviar is MIA.

Dammit, I should have caught that one. sleepy.gif
Sabosect
Magically-enhanced EMP bombs, which send out an electromagnetic pulse intended to fry hardware (that, in the established history, is protected against such an event). In order for that to work as intended, you need to seriously overpower the bombs until they are capable of creating an EMP capable ov overriding the protection against EMPs. Unfortunately, in normal physics, you end up creating a regular multi-kiloton nuke, or if the protection is powerful enough you end up having to create a cold fusion device in order to generate the necessary EMP (these devices are also known as thermonuclear bombs).

The problem I see is that, if I'm interpreting the history and accounting for technology advancements right, you need an EMP power equivolent to that of a thermonuke in order to match the amount of damage done. The amount of magic involved, even if you account for magic enhancing it, is not enough to account for the total damage done. In order words, somewhere along the line something's providing excess power. An explosion, matter converting to energy, or a simple antimatter reactor like the one we currently have in the real world would suffice nicely.
Ellery
Thermonuclear bombs are hot fusion.

I don't see why you need a large explosion at all. The Matrix is distributed in thousands of cities. Hitting a few isn't going to matter, unless they're hubs.

If they are hubs, you hit the hub itself, not the city. You need much less destructive power there to take it out. A few dozen hand grenades (or a few kilos of C12) in the right spots should do the trick, much less a nuclear weapon.
hahnsoo
They do take out the Hubs. There is mention in System Failure on p78. Here's a Spoiler quote:
[ Spoiler ]
hahnsoo
EDIT: Whoops, wrong thread.
Synner
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 1 2005, 10:10 PM)
Magically-enhanced EMP bombs, which send out an electromagnetic pulse intended to fry hardware (that, in the established history, is protected against such an event). In order for that to work as intended, you need to seriously overpower the bombs until they are capable of creating an EMP capable ov overriding the protection against EMPs.


Misunderstanding here, what is established is that high-end electronics such as cyber, computers and secure networks are hardened. This is not what Winternight is targeting with the EMP strikes. The strikes target the power generators, relays and power infrastructure all these systems require causing a cascading surge effect which burns out the power supply of said hardened electronics and possibly damages the system if the surge is powerful enough. The concentrated and magically-enhanced EMP is intended to turn these things off, not necessarily destroy them (though if they're vulnerable enough, that's a fortuitous side-effect).

In many cases the systems themselves, or more importantly their firmware and software, have already been damaged beyond recovery at that point by Jormungand...

For the record these critical hubs (inspired by an 2002 NSA study which postulated 15 such critical hubs in the contemporary Internet) are hardened targets and their exact location is not only a jealously guarded secret but one the Corp Court and the CCMA defends with all its resources. Winternight does not have the numbers or firepower to pull a frontal assault off and a thermonuclear explosion of the kilotonnage they possess doesn't guarantee success. It uses what it has.
Sabosect
The explosion itself is actually to power the EMP.

While grenades would work, part of the problem is getting a nuke to the location. It's easier to have it go off in a remote place outside the city than to get it to the hub itself. Right now, it may be improbable to be able to stop a nuke that's launched, but considering SR canon fiction I doubt it will be in 2064.

Also, the last time I checked, thermonuclear devices are considered cold fusion, since they instigate fusion at several thousand degrees less than the only comparable natural cases of it.
Ancient History
Ellery has the right idea; Winternight was looking at hitting critical points with a certain amount of power, not destroy entire cities. If you use the Cermak Blast as an example, under certain conditions magical barriers can reduce the size of a blast and increase the relative potency in that area - in short, the bombs were tailored to take out the targets.
Sabosect
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 1 2005, 10:10 PM)
Magically-enhanced EMP bombs, which send out an electromagnetic pulse intended to fry hardware (that, in the established history, is protected against such an event). In order for that to work as intended, you need to seriously overpower the bombs until they are capable of creating an EMP capable ov overriding the protection against EMPs.


Misunderstanding here, what is established is that high-end electronics such as cyber, computers and secure networks are hardened. This is not what Winternight is targeting with the EMP strikes. The strikes target the power generators, relays and power infrastructure all these systems require causing a cascading surge effect which burns out the power supply of said hardened electronics and possibly damages the system if the surge is powerful enough. The concentrated and magically enhanced EMP is intended to turn these things off not necessarily destroy them (though if they're vulnerable enough that's a nice side-effect.

In many cases the systems themselves, or more importantly their firmware and software, have already been damaged beyond recovery by Jormungand.

Which makes me question: Why are they not considered high-end electronics? You would think something that provides your power is the first thing you would shield against EMP. And, really, a lot of the regulation networks for power distribution strike me as something that would use high-end electronics just because of how protected they are.

Once again, drunk logic must be used.
Ellery
Sabosect, please check again. You don't know what the heck you're talking about with regard to thermonuclear weapons. There are at least three major mistakes in that one sentence. Try Wikipedia or something.

For what it's worth, I don't see that targeting power plants makes any more sense. Why would matrix hubs be well guarded but power plants not be? Why would you want an EMP instead of just blowing up the power plant (no power--no Matrix!) or altering its voltage output to cause damage (no EMP needed). And have people forgotten how to make surge suppressors and uninterruptable power supplies in 2064?

The advantage of hitting electronics directly with an EMP is that every loop of wire picks up inductive current from the flux of magnetic field. You can buypass all the nifty surge suppression and capacitance and so on, and fry any loop anywhere, especially ones with a large cross-section and low resistance. You lose that advantage if you don't hit the electronics directly.
Synner
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 1 2005, 10:28 PM)
Which makes me question: Why are they not considered high-end electronics? You would think something that provides your power is the first thing you would shield against EMP.

Military grids and highly secure grids are those would be the minority. The hubs for instance would probably have hardened relays, backup power systems and knowbot firmware controls in the event of emergencies - which unfortunately have been corrupted by the Dissonance worm which homes in and nests in hubs so potentially a surge could even get in.

QUOTE
And, really, a lot of the regulation networks for power distribution strike me as something that would use high-end electronics just because of how protected they are.

They don't use them today and there's no real reason why they should in the future. It isn't cost effective for power companies or even megacorps to harden all their power infrastructure to milspec levels and use high-end electronics for basic power distribution (its not like the expect an EMP nuke) unless they're specifically aiming at a self-contained environment such as an arc. As the East Coast blackout a couple of years back revealed all a surge needs to cascade is a weak link. This doesn't mean they're not hardened just that they're not hardened against a nuke-fueled EMP.

In fact, it's been postulated that you could knock out satellites (which have hardened electronics) with a similar cascading surge from an EMP detonation in LEO - closer to Earth other factors interfere though.

Ellery - please note I didn't say the EMPs were targeting power stations. They target the areas around the suspected location of the hub. Their purpose is to unplug and fry everything they can connected to the hub and hopefully cause the cascading surge in as many secure systems as possible. The objective of the EMPs is primarily to shut down the Matrix, isolate the hubs and seed further chaos
[ Spoiler ]
. Everything else is fortuitous collateral damage.
Sabosect
Ellery, last I checked, my information was correct. I'll check again, but not wikipedia. I prefer a source that I can say actually is credible for such things as nukes.

As for the rest: Meh. I'll just say I'm wrong and back off. I'd rather be wrong and the answer easily corrected.
mmu1
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Sep 1 2005, 07:04 PM)
Ellery, last I checked, my information was correct. I'll check again, but not wikipedia. I prefer a source that I can say actually is credible for such things as nukes.

As for the rest: Meh. I'll just say I'm wrong and back off. I'd rather be wrong and the answer easily corrected.

It's not. Cold fusion is, by definition, fusion occurring at lower temperatures than those produced by a thermonuclear reaction.

Which currently is only possible in laboratory conditions, using processes that use more energy than they release.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Sep 1 2005, 04:23 AM)
[ Spoiler ]

The stupid! She spreads!

Edit: wait, this could still turn out sensible. Was he in a massively deep bunker at the time?

Edit2: JongWK, the tag for strikethrough is just s. Like so.
CODE
[s]Like so[/s]


Edit3: well, sensibly for anything that involves him at all.

~J
BookWyrm
I can only honestly say this; I want this book NOW.
SirFozzie
Damnit. I just read the section about Captain Chaos

DAMNIT. DAMNIT.. DAMNIT...

Not good.
Shadow
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Edit: wait, this could still turn out sensible. Was he in a massively deep bunker at the time?

[ Spoiler ]
Synner
I think the Captain goes out in style and gets some of my favorite lines in the book:
[ Spoiler ]
SirFozzie
[ Spoiler ]
Ellery
Okay, Synner's latest explanation sort of half-makes-sense--at least to the point where there are lots of stupider things to worry about. Thanks for the clarifications!

I still think the "magical" part is suspect, but one can always just decide that they got close enough to take out the hubs without needing magic.
Tzeentch
Wow. Sounds like they jacked the lame aspects of the Shadowrun background up to 11.
SirFozzie
No, not really.. it's a world changing event. Literally. I mean.. the SR world as we knew it.. blown to drek.

Really good reading.

(and no it's not effected to learn that the @*$)$&@) Yankees haven't won a World Series in 50+ years in SR timeline biggrin.gif)
SirBedevere
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Edit2: JongWK, the tag for strikethrough is just s. Like so.
CODE
[s]Like so[/s]



Ah! So that's how it's done. Thanks Kagetenshi biggrin.gif
SirBedevere
The ignition temperature for thermonuclear fusion is approx 100million degrees C.

Centre de Recherches en Physique des Plasmas
JongWK
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Edit2: JongWK, the tag for strikethrough is just s. Like so.
CODE
[s]Like so[/s]


testing, testing... 1, 2, 3, 4...

Thanks. smile.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Ellery @ Sep 1 2005, 06:21 PM)
Okay, Synner's latest explanation sort of half-makes-sense--at least to the point where there are lots of stupider things to worry about.  Thanks for the clarifications!

I still think the "magical" part is suspect, but one can always just decide that they got close enough to take out the hubs without needing magic.

Or that the magic was used for cloaking the nuke from detection before detonating it. Sure radiation detectors aren't given as common place security in SR, but canon suggests that those bad boys are going to be visible in some abnormal way on the astral. A chance astral passing by someone who is alert or curious and the gig could be up. You also wouldn't be able to clear the astral area of possible witnesses because that could attract attention too.

If even one of those nukes were found far enough ahead of time, especially if it was recognized as being designed for EMP, someone might piece together what turd was about to hit which fan and perhaps do something about it.
Finster
Quick question: System Failure is 100% SR4 compatible, right?
Shadow
QUOTE (Finster)
Quick question: System Failure is 100% SR4 compatible, right?

There arn't any rules in SF. You can play it with SR3 or 4. However, SF ends in 2066, not 2070 so it might make for some timeline screwiness. And when I say no rules in SF I mean no stats, no NPC samples, no vehicles, no rules, pure fiction.
hahnsoo
That's not entirely true... there are stats for the evil evil weapons unleashed by Winternight.
Finster
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
That's not entirely true... there are stats for the evil evil weapons unleashed by Winternight.

And these stats are SR4 compatible? If not... I'll need to wait for the Revised Edition (that FanPro LOVES publishing all the time)
Synner
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Sep 2 2005, 04:34 PM)
That's not entirely true... there are stats for the evil evil weapons unleashed by Winternight.

And you should see some of the nastinesses besides Surtr and Ymir that didn't make the cut... devil.gif

QUOTE (Finster)
QUOTE (hahnsoo)

That's not entirely true... there are stats for the evil evil weapons unleashed by Winternight.

And these stats are SR4 compatible? If not... I'll need to wait for the Revised Edition (that FanPro LOVES publishing all the time)

System Failure was designed as the final SR3 release (well, not counting SoLA) and it was concieved to end the SR3 line with a bang. While official SR4 stats are not impossible I wouldn't count on them anytime soon. Some of the Winternight weapons are relatively easy conversions, but there are currently no rules to allow conversion of Pax/Winternight's primary attack vector (Jormungand) given SR4's Matrix is significantly different.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Finster)
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
That's not entirely true... there are stats for the evil evil weapons unleashed by Winternight.

And these stats are SR4 compatible? If not... I'll need to wait for the Revised Edition (that FanPro LOVES publishing all the time)

On the one hand: They are SR3 stats, and there are no official conversion rules for them.
On the other hand: They are so incomprehensibly evil that they almost equate to "instant death" anyway. It's not hard to create equivalents under SR4.
Synner
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Sep 2 2005, 04:40 PM)
They are so incomprehensibly evil that they almost equate to "instant death" anyway.

I didn't think it appropriate for Winternight to pull any punches during their end game - after all they are ending the world. Their tactics during System Failure reflect this and they've got some surprises for anyone thinking their biggest problem is the worm and the EMPs.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Synner)
I didn't think it appropriate for Winternight to pull any punches during their end game - afterall they are ending the world. Their tactics during System Failure reflect this and they've got some surprisesfor anyone thinking their biggest problem is the worm and the EMPs.

I don't think this is a bad thing, either. I'm just saying that the stats in the book are pretty evil, by SR3 standards (If you thought the Renraku Arcology/Brainscan stats were tough, think again. The Cutter nanites are pretty wimpy in comparison.).
ring3tones
The book sounds like it will be good. Has anyone read about what happens to the people who were caught on the matrix and what happened to them?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (ring3tones)
The book sounds like it will be good. Has anyone read about what happens to the people who were caught on the matrix and what happened to them?

There's information about that in the Aftermath chapters and in SR4. Some will die. Some will have their consciousness recorded in the Matrix before they die (like Alice Haeffner). Some will go insane. Some will come out of the experience no worse for the wear. Some will turn into the Technomancers in SR4.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Finster)
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
That's not entirely true... there are stats for the evil evil weapons unleashed by Winternight.

And these stats are SR4 compatible? If not... I'll need to wait for the Revised Edition (that FanPro LOVES publishing all the time)

What are you on? How many revised books do you think FanPro has published, much less how many have been published over the entire line? This isn't exactly a 3.0/3.5 situation, y'dig.
Dashifen
Simply put, this was masterful work. I applaud the authors (wish I could have been one!!) and truly enjoyed reading System Failure last night.

notworthy.gif notworthy.gif notworthy.gif

The fiction was great, the bookend passages between Villiers and Lanier were fantastic and wrapped everything up nice and neat. Plus, I love that not all the questions were answered and things were left unsaid. I like, too, that the end of the book is focused on snippets of the aftershocks of the crash around the world that didn't have focus in the earlier Singularity/Fall of Night chapters (i.e. Free Poland and the info on Ibn Eisa).

The tying up of loose ends strewn as far back as Threats, Renraku Arcology: Shutdown, and Brainscan is excellent.

Oh, and R.I.P. Capt. Chaos frown.gif
Demonseed Elite
Drew's Villiers/Lanier fiction is great. I like that SR4 is giving the writers more room for fiction in the sourcebooks, because I feel it is really helping to flesh out the world. Those stories made characters like Villiers feel real in the way a game material paragraph never would be able to do.

Afterall, who knew that Villiers was a Yankees fan? nyahnyah.gif
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