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Akimbo
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 14 2005, 12:11 PM)
QUOTE (Akimbo @ Oct 15 2005, 02:44 AM)
Although I do recall one of the books mentioning the inability to cast spells when bound and gagged....

Definitely need a page reference for that.

Page 162 in the SR3 main book explains how hard it is to notice. I can't find specifically the bound page, but I think that was in the SR3 Companion.
Fortune
I know how hard it is to notice. I was asking for a specific page reference to back up your claim that mages could not cast while bound and/or gagged. The only time they are restricted in this manner is if they have the Incantation and/or Gesture Geasa.
Akimbo
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 14 2005, 12:28 PM)
I know how hard it is to notice. I was asking for a specific page reference to back up your claim that mages could not cast while bound and/or gagged. The only time they are restricted in this manner is if they have the Incantation and/or Gesture Geasa.

It's assumed that all normal casters use gestures to cast. Give me reference otherwise where casters DON'T gesture straight out of the box.

Also, the higher level force requires more gestures. It states that a higher force subtracts from dicculty to perceive a spell being cast.
Nikoli
of if they are in a mage-mask, which physically blocks line of sight.
Jaid
QUOTE (Akimbo)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 14 2005, 12:28 PM)
I know how hard it is to notice. I was asking for a specific page reference to back up your claim that mages could not cast while bound and/or gagged. The only time they are restricted in this manner is if they have the Incantation and/or Gesture Geasa.

It's assumed that all normal casters use gestures to cast. Give me reference otherwise where casters DON'T gesture straight out of the box.

Also, the higher level force requires more gestures. It states that a higher force subtracts from dicculty to perceive a spell being cast.

if it's assumed they must gesture and chant, then the geasa that require them to do that aren't exactly limiting them in any way now, are they?
Akimbo
In other words, all casters must use gestures and incantations to cast. And as far as SR4 goes, there's not much for specifics with magic as if they were using the Magic in the Shadows book. So no, you cannot cast a spell when bound or gagged because such a thing prevents you from making gestures or talking.
blakkie
QUOTE (Akimbo @ Oct 14 2005, 11:32 AM)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 14 2005, 12:28 PM)
I know how hard it is to notice. I was asking for a specific page reference to back up your claim that mages could not cast while bound and/or gagged. The only time they are restricted in this manner is if they have the Incantation and/or Gesture Geasa.

It's assumed that all normal casters use gestures to cast. Give me reference otherwise where casters DON'T gesture straight out of the box.

You can gesture while bound. *wink, wink*

QUOTE
Also, the higher level force requires more gestures. It states that a higher force subtracts from dicculty to perceive a spell being cast.


It becomes easier to notice, unfortunately it doesn't explain why, so it is merely a guess that it is due to more gesturing, or more pronounced gestures.
Nikoli
Or maybe some wierd glow of energy as depicted in the artwork.
Akimbo
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Or maybe some wierd glow of energy as depicted in the artwork.

That could be the case. If that IS the case, then magic is very easy to detect. Who runs around with auras in teh physical plane? Not I.
Azralon
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Oct 14 2005, 11:35 AM)
In Shadowrun, magic is inherently not overt.

Well, except that a Force 6 or higher spell has a threshold of zero to notice.

Hence my use of the word "inherently."

To clarify: Just because you're using magic at all doesn't mean there are automatically showy effects. As we've already stated, the more potent magics are more obvious.

And I remind that if you bring someone's dice pool down to zero then they're considered to have automatically failed the roll. So it's possible to conceal even big stuff in the dark, through fog, and/or at range.
Akimbo
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 14 2005, 12:44 PM)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Oct 14 2005, 11:35 AM)
In Shadowrun, magic is inherently not overt.

Well, except that a Force 6 or higher spell has a threshold of zero to notice.

Hence my use of the word "inherently."

To clarify: Just because you're using magic at all doesn't mean there are automatically showy effects. As we've already stated, the more potent magics are more obvious.

And I remind that if you bring someone's dice pool down to zero then they're considered to have automatically failed the roll. So it's possible to conceal even big stuff in the dark, through fog, and/or at range.

Very true. However, actions are necessary to cast these spells. They may not be easily seen, but they are necessary. How detectable a spell is in combat is not really a factor in or games, but if someone is tied up with someone watching them, they will struggle trying to be covert about casting a spell to get them out of that situation.
Azralon
Because someone will eventually need to do it:

QUOTE (SR4 p168)
Just how obvious are magical skills? Not very, since most spells and spirits have little, if any, visible effect in the physical world (unless the magician prefers to have flashy effects, or her tradition calls for it). An observer has to notice the magician's intense look of concentration, whispered incantations, and small gestures.


So. You can have everything you cast eat into your special effects budget by choice, or you can not. Spells themselves can, per the text, have absolutely no visual effect -- the evidence is all about you wiggling your fingers and muttering. Some do get flashy, some don't; I'd say indirect combat spells definitely do but then they'd fall under the "little visible effect" category.

Of course, these are subjective terms. In objective terms:

QUOTE (same page @ second column)
Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic's Force -- more powerful magic is easier to spot. The gamemaster should apply additional modifiers as appropriate, or if the perceiver is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving (+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is evident (+2 dice).


And on Centering:

QUOTE (SR4 p189)
Centering requires a Free Action, which must be taken in the same Action Phase as the Drain Resistance Test. The character must be physically able to move and/or speak freely in order to center, and may attract attention to herself. Centering techniques include acts such as chanting in Latin, dancing, making arcane gestures, and so on.


So Centering, by definition, is not restricted to just running your mouth or shaking your booty. Apparently you can do one or the other.

That's the extent of the canonical rules that I've found. Anything else is left up to your imagination and interpretation.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Oct 14 2005, 11:35 AM)
In Shadowrun, magic is inherently not overt.

Well, except that a Force 6 or higher spell has a threshold of zero to notice. Which means that even blind and deaf people people automatically notice where it came from without rolling dice. Presumably, any manipulation of the astral plane that extreme simply resonates into the souls of everyone nearby. Everyone simply knows that a spell has been cast, and who did it.

You know, I've been thinking about 0 threshold (or below) tests, and while it doesn't explicitly state in the book "0 hits = failure", there are a few places where they either refer to this or infer that having 0 hits is an automatic failure, regardless of threshold. For the most part, Threshold tests were carefully constructed to avoid numbers below 1, but it can still happen, and I think that the intent of the Threshold test was to either have a minimum value of 1 or have a minimum value of 0, with 0 hits still meaning failure. *shrugs* It's just a thought, and a bit off-topic for the discussion.

As far as noticing spellcasting, I'd rule that the person who is trying to detect the spellcasting must have already Observed in Detail at the caster or spend a Free Action that turn to get a "Notice Spellcasting" roll. We added a new metamagic back in 3rd edition called "Somatic Masking" which had a pre-requisite of Masking and basically made spellcasting harder to detect. It translates over to 4th edition pretty well (simply add the Initiate grade to the threshold... alternatively, you can subtract from the observer's dice).
Nikoli
Adding to the threshhold and subtracting dice are very different. On average it takes roughly 3 dice being rolled to reliably get 1 Hit. requiring 3 more hits on top is like needing 9 more dice statistically. Removing 3 dice from the pool is like negating 1 hit. Huge variance there.
Xenith
Some players of mine did something interesting with the turn to goo spell recently. They used it on themselves. No I'm not kidding.

They were having some issues finding a way into a bio-research lab for a run. Someone got a bright idea to stowaway inside some containers in a supply van. Problem was there was a very heavy security check on the way in, all containers were visually searched on the way in. Magical security was there but was limited to mostly watcher spirits.

Well the face got a bright idea while going through the mage's repetoire of spells. He decided that, while risky, it was viable and could allow them to pull off a smooth run as long as they had a decent escape plan. He decided to put three of their melted forms into one of the long, flat pallette-like containers. Wait for the right moment and then once the mage receives a signal from a hidding air spirit, do their thing.

With a few more preporations they saw a rather smooth run as predicted (despite several wrenches thrown by me), aside from having to make one unfortunate guards body disappear with them.

At the very end, I couldn' help but break down into laughter.

rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Nikoli @ Oct 14 2005, 01:35 PM)
Adding to the threshhold and subtracting dice are very different.  On average it takes roughly 3 dice being rolled to reliably get 1 Hit.  requiring 3 more hits on top is like needing 9 more dice statistically.  Removing 3 dice from the pool is like negating 1 hit.  Huge variance there.

But you can't always add to the Threshold. In fact, you can only add to the Threshold on Threshold tests. Thus, adding to the threshold is meaningless for the majority of spellcasting (since you can't add a threshold to an Opposed Test). Subtracting dice as a modifier is the only way to apply a penalty across all aspects of an activity such as spellcasting (which may alternately be a Success Test, Threshold Test, or an Opposed Test).

EDIT: Whoops, thought this was another thread. The above should apply for the Background Count discussion.
Azralon
Xenith, that's just wrong on so many levels. It's cute, but it's wrong. smile.gif
WhiteRabbit
QUOTE (Akimbo)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 14 2005, 12:28 PM)
I know how hard it is to notice. I was asking for a specific page reference to back up your claim that mages could not cast while bound and/or gagged. The only time they are restricted in this manner is if they have the Incantation and/or Gesture Geasa.

It's assumed that all normal casters use gestures to cast. Give me reference otherwise where casters DON'T gesture straight out of the box.

Also, the higher level force requires more gestures. It states that a higher force subtracts from dicculty to perceive a spell being cast.

Give me one where they do. I have never seen in SR where casters must use gestures to cast, unless they are gaesed in some way.
Xenith
Seems to be a bit different now. While not really a gaeus, centering seems to take the whole gesture/chant thing as it own.

Bound and gagging a mage might hurt his ability a bit, it by no means stops it. Blindfolding on the other hand...
Shemhazai
My old gamemaster got concerned when I did not want to wear a pointed hat with day-glo moons and stars all over it. He wanted me to do all kinds of hoodoo to cast spells. I wanted to be like Bewitched where people didn't know I was a mage. He wanted me to yell out "I PUT A SPELL ON YOUUUUU!!" He even created a house rule that made my eyes roll back into my head as I enter a very obvious trance every time I wanted to astrally perceive. He almost wanted my eyes to glow red and have a Gregorian chant-like harmony come out of my mouth.

It seems like there are two camps. There is one that thinks that doing all kinds of stuff adds color to the gameworld, is an important balancing factor for magicians, and can lead to all kinds of great dramatic scenes. Like when Billy Batson was gagged and couldn't say SHAZAM to turn into Captain Marvel. Or when you are tied to a chair like in some bad thriller. Then there are people like me who think that people should be able to be very discrete in their magic use. I'm even pissed off that Armor has a visual component. Why should that be? Try going into restaurant with some big glow around your body. Maybe I should try reading someone's mind while sparks fly around their head as a result. They should make an invisible armor spell, but the drain value is already (F 2) + 3.

The rules are somewhere in-between, but more on the side of stealth magicians.
blakkie
I'd like to welcome you to SR4, where Armor is not [mundanely] visible....until your GM freaks and makes a house rule that it is pulsating bright purple that people can spot around corners and at 400m through IR smoke. frown.gif
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Shemhazai)
The rules are somewhere in-between, but more on the side of stealth magicians.

Well, the flavor is on the side of stealthy magicians, but the actual mechanics are--as in SR3--all about making magic about as difficult to spot as a non-silenced gunshot to mundanes, and even more obvious to mages (against non-Masking mages) and initiates. Except of course for astral perception, which in both cases has no rules for spotting as a mundane, and has no Force associated with it so it's essentially undetectable.

Of all the silly things to keep from SR3 to SR4. They get rid of variable target numbers, extensive scalability of rules, skill as the far-and-away most important determination of ability, but they keep the unspoken rule of "Magic is extremely subtle... except when you actually do it." biggrin.gif

Hm, maybe that last part was thread-crapping, but I think it's still funny so I'm leaving it. smile.gif Ah well, at least it's not as bad as it was during SR3.
Eyeless Blond
Oh, wait, on second thought force 6 spells aren't really the norm anymore are they? It's more like force 4 now, isn't it? If that's so then magic really isn't as blindingly obvious as it used to be; it's only obvious if you cast over force 3-4.

Oh, and when you decide to have a shamanistic mask of some sort, though there are no real indicators for why you'd ever want or need to do such a thing.
blakkie
Depending on the type of spell, above Force 6 is closer to the norm. smile.gif I don't think you'll see a lot of Magic 6 starting characters, but a lot of characters will be there within 30 to 50 karma.

SR4 did make the shamanic mask optional where the Eagle shaman looks more and more like the totem as the Force of what they are doing increases, not only broadcasting that you are a mage but also what bonus totem dice you have and your totem weaknesses.
Thorncrow
You know Turn to Goo and Transform have some useful applications for home defense. Have the resident spellcaster Anchor the spell to doors and windows of the team's safehouse. So when the low-life guttertrash try and break into the place the get turned into a nice puddle of slop. Imagine the runners coming back from a run and as the sammie steps through the door, "AWE DREK!! I just stepped in another burglar, it's all over my new real leather boots!". Or link it to a Transform spell that turns said offender into a pomeranian. So when the team walks in the burglar turned yappy-furry-rat-dog gets punted across the room, generally messed up, and cutsified with bows and ribbons, then finally gets released with a whole mess of emotional scarring and newborn neuroses.
blakkie
The magician would become painfully aware of anyone triggering the spell due to Drain. EDIT: Of course assuming Anchoring will work the same way in SR4.
Thorncrow
True, but even so it would be hilarious.
Thorncrow
You know, I tend to think too much sometimes, lol. If the koala Awakened into the Drop Bear, and the armadillo into the Great Armadillo AND the Juggernaut, what the hell would a pomeranian Awaken into? Terrified...
blakkie
QUOTE (Thorncrow)
True, but even so it would be hilarious.

... which i guess means i could see the mage "forgeting" to mention it to the sammie.

mage: "Oh wait, i forgot my Anchoring focus in the car. You guys go ahead i'll be right in."
Dim Sum
QUOTE (Xenith)
Some players of mine did something interesting with the turn to goo spell recently. They used it on themselves. No I'm not kidding.

They were having some issues finding a way into a bio-research lab for a run. Someone got a bright idea to stowaway inside some containers in a supply van. Problem was there was a very heavy security check on the way in, all containers were visually searched on the way in. Magical security was there but was limited to mostly watcher spirits.

Well the face got a bright idea while going through the mage's repetoire of spells. He decided that, while risky, it was viable and could allow them to pull off a smooth run as long as they had a decent escape plan. He decided to put three of their melted forms into one of the long, flat pallette-like containers. Wait for the right moment and then once the mage receives a signal from a hidding air spirit, do their thing.

With a few more preporations they saw a rather smooth run as predicted (despite several wrenches thrown by me), aside from having to make one unfortunate guards body disappear with them.

At the very end, I couldn' help but break down into laughter.

rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif

Er, Xenith, how was that possible?

If the mage cast TtG on his three teammates and their gooey bodies were placed into containers of some kind, the spell could not have been sustained if the mage didn't have LOS to his teammates.

If the mage used TtG on himself, he would have fallen unconscious and the spell again could not have been sustained.

Where was the air elemental hiding that the watcher spirit couldn't see it? If the elemental was there to observe and give the all-clear, that means it had to have a LOS to the supply van carrying the containers.

Just curious. grinbig.gif
hyzmarca
You don't need LOS to sustain a spell. You only need LOS to cast. After the spel has been cast you just have to concentrate to sustain it no matter where it does unless it hits a ward or is dispelled.
Dim Sum
eek.gif Ach, neh! Wirklich?!! So, Mr. Mage could cast Improved Invisibility on his buddy, Sir Sammy, so that Sammy can stow aboard an aircraft to go visit his razorgirlfriend on another continent 'cos Sammy is too cheap to pay for a ticket?

Crap, okay, time to revise THAT misconception in our group! biggrin.gif
NightRain
Unless the sammy walks through a ward or something (which I imagine most air ports would have), in which case the ward could break the spell
hyzmarca
Unless the spell is powerful enough to break the Ward, in which case Sir Sammy will have so many security mages on him so fast that one would think he was the world's last doughnut.
Xenith
QUOTE (Dim Sum)

Er, Xenith, how was that possible?

If the mage cast TtG on his three teammates and their gooey bodies were placed into containers of some kind, the spell could not have been sustained if the mage didn't have LOS to his teammates.

If the mage used TtG on himself, he would have fallen unconscious and the spell again could not have been sustained.

Where was the air elemental hiding that the watcher spirit couldn't see it? If the elemental was there to observe and give the all-clear, that means it had to have a LOS to the supply van carrying the containers.

Just curious.  grinbig.gif


Well, as above LOS isn't necessary. The mage was just on standby til he got the signal from the spirit over their mental link (since it does say they have one in the corebook... they got me on that one smile.gif )and then was simply astrally projecting help for the remainder (since it took several hours for the truck ride and he was sustaining several spells so he was a bit too distracted to be sneaky.)

Damned mage was just lucky enough to successfully cast the spell on his willing targets even after pool modifiers... though he did cast it on the toughest to wimpiest members... that might have been pushing it a bit... ah well. The team was normally five teammates but only three were able to go. The face/rigger opted to be support for the mage just in case.

Edit: Oh, the spirit was also high force and used concealment. Plus it defaulted to its agility for infiltration... which was a bloody 9. So it was rolling 8 dice, plus an edge of 6... with the rule of 6... it came out to alot of successes... about 7 I believe... that made me sad. frown.gif They're actually a crafty bunch with a surprising amount of luck. grinbig.gif
Dim Sum
QUOTE (Xenith)
Well, as above LOS isn't necessary. The mage was just on standby til he got the signal from the spirit over their mental link (since it does say they have one in the corebook... they got me on that one smile.gif )and then was simply astrally projecting help for the remainder (since it took several hours for the truck ride and he was sustaining several spells so he was a bit too distracted to be sneaky.)

Damned mage was just lucky enough to successfully cast the spell on his willing targets even after pool modifiers... though he did cast it on the toughest to wimpiest members... that might have been pushing it a bit... ah well. The team was normally five teammates but only three were able to go. The face/rigger opted to be support for the mage just in case.

Edit: Oh, the spirit was also high force and used concealment. Plus it defaulted to its agility for infiltration... which was a bloody 9. So it was rolling 8 dice, plus an edge of 6... with the rule of 6... it came out to alot of successes... about 7 I believe... that made me sad. frown.gif They're actually a crafty bunch with a surprising amount of luck. grinbig.gif

Hehehe, okay, pretty ballsy move, then - my hats off to them. How did the exfil go?
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (NightRain @ Oct 16 2005, 08:45 PM)
Unless the sammy walks through a ward or something (which I imagine most air ports would have), in which case the ward could break the spell

I'd say not, actually. Airports are high-traffic areas, so they do need to at least a semblence of being accessible to ticketed passengers. And sustainned/quickened spells aren't always evil, either, so forcing every spell to go through a ward wasld be a bad idea; what happens if you break poor Johnny's Alleviate Allergy(Asthma), he has an attack and you get sued?

Far more likely you'll have a few trainned Aura Readers standing near the metal detecters/cyberware scanners, checking spells and making sure people with high-Force magic sustainned on them or a high Magic Attribute have the proper permits.

Heh. we spend so much time thinking of crafty, bad things to do with magic around here that we forget that magic probably does a lot of good in the sixth world too. Not everyone is as crazy evil as us, yyou know. smile.gif
Nkari
They arent ? damn.. have to revice my view of the world then.. nyahnyah.gif
Xenith
Thats were they had to make a guard disappear. A critical part of the run was that the place wouldn't discover their tampering for at least a week. While the exit would in theory be easier (a waste dump shaft with astral wards and one way trap doors) a random guard blundered upon them just as they were exiting. They had to knock him out and drag him along with them. Rather than just kill him (and leave a problem that could be noticed sooner than a week and bring their tampering to light), they decided to have the mage use an Infuence spell to rearrange his memory to tell him that he had an accident and fell down the waste shaft (a happening the hacker supported with video tampering.)

Alternately, they could have used a custom persona chip (as this guard had a chipjack) to rearrange his memory, but they decided to go with the spell instead.

A few quick rolls and I decided they would indeed make it past the week mark. However, I have also decided that a security mage has the teams mage's signature. What I'll do with that... I'll decide that later. smile.gif

Edit: Oh! And someone has a bioengineered disease baking in their blood stream from the waste shaft. I haven't decided who or what but it should be fun. smile.gif
Fortune
How would the Sec Mage have the team mage's signature? It would only stay around for a matter of hours, and the subtefuge wasn't discovered for a week.

Not going to go into how the Influence spell doesn't actually change memories, because a little poetic license is cool for good ideas.

Is the random PC going to get a chance to resist this bio-engineered disease, or are you just going to arbitrarily give it to one of them?
Eyeless Blond
Make it something that slowly turns their bodies to stone. That's always fun, if only for the inevitable "hard-on" jokes that you know somebody's gonna make. nyahnyah.gif
Dim Sum
Heh, Fortune beat me to the question about the astral signature.

As for the memory wipe, there is a spell like that but for the life of me, I cannot recall what it's called right now - I ran a campaign once where all 3 of the PCs started the game by regaining consciousness inside an upside-down car that was on fire and being held by some branches over the side of a high cliff. I created their characters and it was hilarious as they tried to find out who and what they were after they extricated themselves from the burning car. They eventually found out that of them, a magical adept, had cast the spell erasing all their memories.
Fortune
QUOTE (Dim Sum)
As for the memory wipe, there is a spell like that but for the life of me, I cannot recall what it's called right now ...

Alter Memory?!? wink.gif grinbig.gif
Xenith
There isn't a modify memory spell in the book, so I allowed a high success casting (threshold equal to guard willpower) to successfully, if temporarily overlay his original memories due to hypnotic suggestion. I also had the mage have to work the spell like a heal spell to make it "permanent". Which (since I also enjoy screwing with my PCs as much as I reward them) also made the signature last for (Force) days rather than hours. I got several successes from the sec mage on the sixth and last day, and a few more rolls decided that even with a scramble to detect whatever foul play took place, the worms and couple other tamperings went off anyway.

The character gets to resist it of course. Doesn't mean he won't go through a short period of heavy cold sweat and convulsions if resisted. On the bright side, either way if he survives he's effectively immune to it for future infections(much like chicken pox).
Dim Sum
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Dim Sum @ Oct 17 2005, 07:10 PM)
As for the memory wipe, there is a spell like that but for the life of me, I cannot recall what it's called right now ...

Alter Memory?!? wink.gif grinbig.gif

rotfl.gif Gee, okay, that could be it, I guess. rotfl.gif


Sorry, it's been quite a while since we played Shadowrun. We started a MechWarrior game which has since ended and we've decided to try out SR4, starting this weekend. nyahnyah.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
QUOTE (NightRain @ Oct 16 2005, 08:45 PM)
Unless the sammy walks through a ward or something (which I imagine most air ports would have), in which case the ward could break the spell

I'd say not, actually. Airports are high-traffic areas, so they do need to at least a semblence of being accessible to ticketed passengers. And sustainned/quickened spells aren't always evil, either, so forcing every spell to go through a ward wasld be a bad idea; what happens if you break poor Johnny's Alleviate Allergy(Asthma), he has an attack and you get sued?

Far more likely you'll have a few trainned Aura Readers standing near the metal detecters/cyberware scanners, checking spells and making sure people with high-Force magic sustainned on them or a high Magic Attribute have the proper permits.

Heh. we spend so much time thinking of crafty, bad things to do with magic around here that we forget that magic probably does a lot of good in the sixth world too. Not everyone is as crazy evil as us, yyou know. smile.gif

Remember, the magicians who own the ward can choose to let someone through.
There will be an astrally active magician at the entrance to the security area. This magician will have access to the Ward and will be able to let little Johnny through with this quickened Aleviate Alergy spell. However, It is necessary to ward the entire airfield, considering security concerns. It only takes one pissed off person to summon one spirit with the accident power and order it to go to the airport and accident a plane during takeoff or landing.
Rotbart van Dainig
Only the creator of a barrier can allow passage... of course, when a team creates a ward, there may be more than one creator.
blakkie
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Oct 17 2005, 06:58 AM)
Only the creator of a barrier can allow passage...

But there can be multiple co-creators, which they certainly should do to allow for shift work and days off.

EDIT: Though i suppose that the RAW is not explicit that permission given is an OR instead of an AND.
Eyeless Blond
That and you can ward a larger area with a team. Or did they change that?

Nonetheless, if you have a permit for whatever spell you've got sustainned on you they'd have to let you through. I could probably see them having a problem with using Turn to Goo as a way to avoid buying plane tickets for people, though.
Feshy
QUOTE
EDIT: Though i suppose that the RAW is not explicit that permission given is an OR instead of an AND.


I think it's implied in the general nature of SR. After all, if it was AND, the ward's co-creators couldn't stab the rest of the group in the back for money, or cave to blackmail pressure when shown the pics of him and that troll joygirl, or any of the other fun and exciting things that make SR so great.

(edit because we posted at the same time)
QUOTE
I could probably see them having a problem with using Turn to Goo as a way to avoid buying plane tickets for people, though.


It seems unlikely you would have a permit to be "goo" on an airplane. Unless, to paraphrase Douglass Adams, you where spending the year as a puddle of slime for tax reasons... Even then you'd have to buy a ticket.

I suppose in cases of extreme phobia of flying, it might be allowed -- but really, who is afraid to fly, but NOT afraid to be turned into goo?
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