I really love the new magic system. I thought I had read it all carefully, but I seemed to have missed the part about no successes over the force of the spell part. Or I blocked it out with the player's side of my brain, rather than the GM. Seems I'm going to have to throw away that Force 1 Sustaining focus for my PC’s Increase Reflexes spell. And the Force 1 Sustaining focus for the Invisibility. At least now I'm not scaring myself as much as I was when I was thinking about my GM making my PC as an NPC to cause havoc and mayhem and all kinds of nasty things rather than the usual tricks and traps the GM can come up with.

Yep, that limit is a good thing. I bought a Force 1 Sustaining Focus solely for Shapechange. Though.... I haven't figured out how a bird would carry around a focus yet.

Calypso

"Grip it by the husk."

Where in the spell description does it say that it turns you into a puddle of goo?

That´s might just be the surface. I´m imagining a soft inside would make it even harder to penetrate.

I'd say the barrier rating simulates the substance being impervious to harm - attacks displace the goey material, but do not really damage it. And the substance is very tough , stretchy and sticky, so you can't just scoop up part of it

Ok, well lets say it does make them into a puddle of goo. What happens when the spell drops? Do they just die? If so, why would this spell have the bonus of an instant-kill when Petrify doesn't? (notice that word for word Petrify is almost identical to Turn to Goo) Furthermore, If you say that Turn to Goo is just supposed to work like this, then why isn't the drain value higher than Petrify since Petrify is not an instant-kill (with regards to the when the spell drops)?

When the spell drops the puddle reforms into a perfect whatever they were so long as all the material is in place. It isn't like each drop of goo is labeled and has to be put back into exactly the correct place. The goo finds its own way back to a usable living form by virtue of the magic. The only exception is goo that is physical seperated from the rest by overcomming the barrier rating. The character who looses goo by violence would have wounds equivilant to the DV the goo suffered when he reforms. Cyberware would be put back into place perfectly exacpt for cyberware that is cut out. Gear and clothing stuck in the goo would be worn in the exact same way that it was worn before the spell was cast.

The fun comes when the magic creation rules come out and someone decides to make a inorganic target version of TTG. Then you'd have magicians carrying their guns and other illegal equipment around in a reinforced plastic bag.

The the goo-shape spell...long live the blob!

-Siege

I wouldn´t say crunchy on the outside. But I would say tough, yet flexible. The interpretations of calypso and shadowraven seem about right to me. It does say sticky, gluelike substance, and the spell is named "Turn to Goo". Dictionary.com sais goo is "A sticky wet viscous substance" . I guess you could have it anyway you want, but I have a hard time imagining goo keeping it´s shape any good.

I keep picturing Airplane 2...

Additionally, the spell’s Force must equal or exceed the target’s Body.

So no, its totally useless at force 1. Hells its near useless at force 3.

Its not an insta-kill, not by a long shot. Its a sustainable deadly stunbolt at best. You want to harvest cyberware? Manabolt.

And its not like even if it was a puddle, you would still have a 150lb pile of slop to pour into a bucket.

Or wash it down a drain - but still easier than soaking the body in boiling water.

-Siege

But do YOU have a handy dandy high pressure hose to wash that barrier 5 mess down with?

I smell a new spell for the new Grimoire book...

-Siege

actually, i would think something like vinegar might be better. erm... uhh... soy vinegar... well, i can't say it sounds like it would be useful as much other than a solvent anyways, so it should be cheap.

or maybe synthahol... i mean, this is presumably some pretty viscous stuff... so yeah, i would personally want something a little stronger than water to try to dissolve it with.

besides, vinegar would clean the cyberware off even as you wash off the goo.

Install a Pilot on the Cyberarm... give it preset orders to shoot non-friendly targets when you release direct control (i.e. are unconcious)...

Hey fellas, this is my first post here, just though I'd toss in a few words.

By the way, please forgive me if this has been said before, didn't have the patience to read through all four pages.

What is this DnDish obsession with game balance in so many of posts here? What's the fun in an RPG if all races and types of characters are exactly equally strong in every situation?

In my view there should be differences, mages should be powerful, and their powers should freak most people out. Probably enough to make an obvious mage the target of first choice for any opposition with half a tactical brain.

Another point is that all this (the decrease in the force necessary, drain etc) may be done on purpose. Remember that the mana level in the Sixth World is steadily increasing, and that should, logically speaking make magic easier to manipulate and more powerful as time goes by.

I don't have the 4th ed book yet, but judging from many posts here this seems to be implied by the magic section.

GM: FRT troopers pour out of the Citymaster. *Rolls dice* Sammy, as you do a quick assessment of who's carrying what and where the biggest threat is going to come from, you spot one of them conspicously holding only a pistol and the trooper's body armour is covered with subtle but strange patterns.

Sammy: *sits bolt upright* It's a mage! I stick my SMG in my mouth and blow my brains out!

GM: ... Wha- ???!!!

Hacker, Adept, Shaman: ... What gives??!!!

Sammy: The mage is going to turn me to goo and steal my cyberware after I've been turned into a barrier 5 puddle! But - HAH!! - I have a CUNNING plan! The spell works only on LIVING TISSUE!!! If I'm dead, the spell won't work!!! Brilliant or what!!!

Hacker: *turns to Shaman* Does the spell work on STUPID people?

Shaman: Nah, stupidity doesn't grant immunity to the spell but it will make it less painful when it happens. Heck, if the FRT mage doesn't have the spell, I got a TtG handy right here *wiggles fingers* and I'd be happy to test out his theory.

*BUDDABUDDABUDDA*

GM: ... -facepalms-

just out of curiosity, that's one thing i never got...

ok, in SR, there really doesn't have to be anything that makes someone visibly a magician. i mean, sure, they might have a focus that's pretty obvious. on the other hand, a hermetic shaman could most certainly make a ring into a focus. or a weapon focus from a monowhip.

magicians are no more punished for wearing heavy armor than anyone else, and can buy the heavy weapons skill as easily as pistols (although that might be a little excessive =P )

and, if i am not mistaken, they don't actually have to speak, or move, in any particular way, to use magic.

so how come it's always supposed to be obvious who's a mage? considering how often you hear the phrase "geek the mage first" (and variations on it), i would personally thing magicians would go out of their way to avoid looking like a mage.

just my thoughts on the matter...

That's come up quite a bit.

And it depends on the GM - my last GM usually ruled that magic was relatively obvious in some fashion or form.

Usually taking on the shape of incantations and gestures, but it never became a disputed issue.

-Siege

There are canon rules regarding how obvious the act of spellcasting is.

And they are....

Jaid, other than the perception rules for noticing magic that Hahnsoo posted, you're right in that a mage could easily be indistinguishable from any mundane. After all, a mage has never had to incant a spell or make elaborate gestures or be restricted to certain forms of clothing in the SR universe unless he/she suffered a geas or geasa.

When I GM, the majority (but not the vast majority) of my NPC mages don't do anything to distinguish themselves from anyone else. They act and react just as any sane PC would to do to remain alive and that means not trying to advertise their special status within the team/organisation (whether a rival runner team or SWAT or FRT or terrorist cell, etc.). Having said that, though, I do throw in quite a number of magicians who do broadcast their Awakened status (such as wearing obvious charms associated with magic, painted faces, showy spellcasting, etc.) but it's a purely role-playing element when I happen to have NPCs who are proud of their magical powers or don't know better. For instance, my PCs were double-crossed by a local go-gang once and the one street shaman in the gang stood out because he did everything to flaunt his status within the gang because he had simply enjoyed the respect/fear accorded him in his years in the gang. The gang had never dealt with professional shadowrunners before and were used to other gangs (which didn't have magical power in their corners) being cowed by their superiority in that regard. They had a rude shock when the PCs not only stood their ground but took out their shaman in the blink of an eye. After that, the gang simply fell into line.

Anyway, as the rules stand, it's not very hard to notice magic being used unless the magician is casting a relatively low-powered spell or is summoning a low-Force spirit. I just liked having showy magicians every now and then to up the drama factor.

No, magic is not all that easy to spot with the naked eye, but the PC magicians are not the only one with access to the astral plane. A quick scan from the NPC magician (or the PC's for that matter) and any mages on the other side without serious masking are easily revealed.

In a combat situation, with bullets, sams and adepts flying in all directions and quite possibly multiple spell casters on either side. And possibly even more than one side! Nah! I'd say that's hard.

In a simple out of combat situation a spell may be easy to spot, but in the middle of a fight where you need all your wits about you? I'd say that's a different matter.

Considering the overwhelming oomph that magic can bring to bear, it seems reasonable that combatants on the field are going to be highly motivated to keep an eye out for magical sorts.

Surprise spirits can absolutely ruin your day.

-Siege

as per the rules when the mage casts the spell its relatively easy to spot them. Even with some distraction modifier of combat, basic visibility mods etc it wont be a difficult thing to spot. Still that gives the mage one free spell to cast before he/she is spotted.

When we played SR3, our hermetic mage always cast control thoughts and actions in front of guards and said that he never made any gestures to cast the spell. He would also always try to get the jump on everyone by preparing a spell with high force.

I think that spellcasting needs some form of task or action to perform. You can't just have fireballs flying out of your ass and not acting the wiser.

"Observe in Detail" is a Simple Action. The more Simples the opposition spends on me, the less killing of me they get to do.

In Shadowrun, magic is inherently not overt. It's not D&D where there are somatic, verbal, material, and otherwise inconvenient components.

Well, it can be, if you wave fetishes and foci around -- but they just need to be on your person, so keep them in your pocket. Centering, as mentioned, starts to make the mojo more obvious.

Overall it looks like the thematics required for spells don't go beyond that of Jedi powers in the movies. There might be a hard stare or a little hand twitch for the little stuff. Throwing megalightning around is going to be pretty blatant.

So speaketh the RAW.

Although I do recall one of the books mentioning the inability to cast spells when bound and gagged....

Edit: Looking in the SR3 main book, it does require small gestures and at least a whisper of an incantation. So it would be hard to notice, but still possible. Looking for details is necessary, but spell casting is not possible without gestures or incantations. So as I said before, fireballs can't just fly out of your ass.

i could've swore it said nothing was needed... you can do it while bound, tied up, etc.

else why would lone star have to be so paranoid about locking up mages? you wouldn't need any special gear, just cuff 'em and gag' em. no mage mask, no drugs to turn them into a drooling zombie required.

certainly before very long most mages will want to be centering, if possible. and it's probably not all that uncommon to have to take a geasa to negate magic loss (well... in SR3, anyways... SR4 so far is pretty safe, generally speaking). but barring those situations, i can't recall anywhere saying you do have to, and i seem to recall it explicitly stating that you don't have to make any sounds or motions.

Yeah I just checked my SR3 book. It does say you have to take action. Maybe they changed it with SR4? But then again with magic, you never can be too careful. If I snagged a mage, I would mage mask them too just to be safe.