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Raygun
QUOTE (Musashi Forever)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Nov 2 2005, 08:12 PM)
That isn't saying much.  The Mac 10/11 is one of the most notoriously unergonomic firearms ever designed.

Of course, the MAC does not have a built-in foregrip or collapsible stock.

I wonder how they compare recoil-wise.

About like this...

MAC10 (@ 6.25 lbs, .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ @ 900 fps, 5.5 gr): 2.4 fpe @ 4.9 fps, 1.02 lbs/s
MAC10 (@ 6.25 lbs, 9x19mm 124 gr FMJ @ 1200 fps, 5.5 gr): 1.3 fpe @ 3.7 fps, 0.76 lbs/s
MP7A1 (@ 3.53 lbs, 25 grain Solid AP @ 2380 fps, 6 gr): 0.6 fpe @ 3.4 fps, 0.37 lbs/s

So as far as recoil energy goes, the MP7 puts out a quarter as much as the .45 ACP MAC10, and less than half as much as a 9mm MAC10. As far as accuracy and handling go, the MP7 would win hands down. The MAC10 fires from an open bolt @ 1200 rpm (MV of @ 900 fps), whereas the MP7 fires from a closed bolt @ 950 rpm (MV of 2380 fps; wayyyy flatter shooting), with a decent stock and a forward grip.

That pretty much makes the MAC10 just slightly more useful than a sack full of rocks beyond 25 meters (you'll be spraying bullets all over everywhere), whereas you'll get bored pegging targets at 200 meters with the MP7A1 (not to mention penetrating body armor as well).

QUOTE (ed_209a)
Has anyone laid hand on the MP7? The grip looks a little bulky.

FrostyNSO has. IIRC, he liked it. But then, he likes the P90 too, so... grain of salt and all. smile.gif
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (Raygun @ Nov 3 2005, 02:00 AM)
FrostyNSO has. IIRC, he liked it. But then, he likes the P90 too, so... grain of salt and all. smile.gif

I like those tight package firearms smile.gif Too much FAMAS I guess.

MP7 handles like a big pistol, but to me the Mk.23 was a frigging club too...

If you use the foregrip and stock, it's no problem that I noticed (i.e. bulk-wise)
Slump
I built a couple of guns with the cannon companion. Adding in all the bells and whistles, You can end up with some rather expensive guns. I think the best one I made was a full-auto shotgun with a high power and high concealability. Somehow I don't think they intended "sawn off" to be taken with "shortened barrel," but I didn't see anything disallowing it.
Arethusa
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
I like those tight package firearms smile.gif Too much FAMAS I guess.

You ever use a G36C, by any chance? It is my very favorite gun, but that doesn't mean much coming from me. Just wondering if it's as unreasonably awesome in reality.
Raygun
It is a cool little fucker, isn't it?
FrostyNSO
I never got to use the C, just the full-size version. It's a good weapon, I just wish it had a magazine release like the AR15's. Really not that important a gripe wink.gif
Musashi Forever
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
I never got to use the C, just the full-size version. It's a good weapon, I just wish it had a magazine release like the AR15's. Really not that important a gripe wink.gif

Excuse my ignorance, but how are they different?


By the way, I love the G36 movie on the HKPro website. It shows a guy firing the carbine full-auto with the stock folded and it hardly moves. Such a sweet weapon.

G36 Movie
Critias
I'm gonna jump out on a limb and assume the "C" stands for "Compact."
Oracle
Wasn't it "Commando"?`wink.gif
mmu1
QUOTE (Musashi Forever)
By the way, I love the G36 movie on the HKPro website. It shows a guy firing the carbine full-auto with the stock folded and it hardly moves. Such a sweet weapon.

Generally, in those full-auto demonstrations, it's like 90% shooter, 10% gun... And while he's firing without a stock, he's using the sling to help stabilize it.

Also, while it certainly looks good, the fact you can clearly see the muzzle jump around means that in practice, this would not be particularly accurate fire against anything farther than 20' - 30'.
Critias
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All your "logic" and "reason" and "facts" don't change that it's a sexy-ass piece of hardware.
Musashi Forever
QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (Musashi Forever @ Nov 3 2005, 07:57 AM)
By the way, I love the G36 movie on the HKPro website.  It shows a guy firing the carbine full-auto with the stock folded and it hardly moves.  Such a sweet weapon.

Generally, in those full-auto demonstrations, it's like 90% shooter, 10% gun... And while he's firing without a stock, he's using the sling to help stabilize it.

Also, while it certainly looks good, the fact you can clearly see the muzzle jump around means that in practice, this would not be particularly accurate fire against anything farther than 20' - 30'.

Understood, thank you.
Raygun
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
I never got to use the C, just the full-size version. It's a good weapon, I just wish it had a magazine release like the AR15's. Really not that important a gripe

Really? I'd have thought with you being about as big a fan of the AK as I am, you wouldn't mind that paddle release so much. I dig it, but being a southpaw I'm little biased there.

QUOTE (Musashi Forever)
QUOTE (FrostyNSO @ Nov 3 2005, 03:52 AM)
I never got to use the C, just the full-size version.  It's a good weapon, I just wish it had a magazine release like the AR15's.  Really not that important a gripe wink.gif

Excuse my ignorance, but how are they different?

Like Critias said, it's a compact version of the G36. The standard G36 rifle has an 18.9" (480mm) barrel, the G36K (Kurz, or "Short" in German) has a 12.5" (317mm) barrel, and the G36C has a 9" (228mm) barrel.

QUOTE (Oracle)
Wasn't it "Commando"?

It was, but Colt (of course) has "Commando" trademarked. HK ran into the same problem with using "HKM4" (now HK416). Colt has "M4" trademarked as well.
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
I never got to use the C, just the full-size version. It's a good weapon, I just wish it had a magazine release like the AR15's. Really not that important a gripe

Really? I'd have thought with you being about as big a fan of the AK as I am, you wouldn't mind that paddle release so much. I dig it, but being a southpaw I'm little biased there.

Like I said, it's not a huge gripe. I've never really had a problem with it until I started using AR15's. It speeds up your emergency reloads quite a bit when you can be pulling a fresh mag from your pouch and drop the empty mag at the same time.
Musashi Forever
Sorry, I meant how are the magazine releases different?

From the last post I take it that the G36 requires two hands to pop out the empty clip?
Fix-it
I would venture to say that no, it only takes one hand,

there is a little tab to the rear of the clip in both the kalishnikov and the G36 that you would actuate with your thumb, while grasping the magazine.

Never fired either, but I got to play with the H&K G3, which I believe has the same mechanism.
FrostyNSO
The AR15 has a mag release button you can easily use with your trigger finger to drop the mag. Trying to flip a paddle mechanism with your trigger finger is too unreliable (it's kindof difficult) to do reliably, and opens you up to possibly returning your finger somewhere you don't want to (like the trigger).

The upshot is, you have to use your support hand to pop the mag, while holding the rifle with the main hand, which slows you down a bit.
Raygun
You righties are lucky. I don't get a lot of choice in the matter (other than spending $85 for an AR15 Ambi-Catch). I do both pretty much the same way. I grab the mag with my support hand, thumb the release, rip the mag out, toss it and grab another one. No drop free for me.
Eddie Furious
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
The AR15 has a mag release button you can easily use with your trigger finger to drop the mag. Trying to flip a paddle mechanism with your trigger finger is too unreliable (it's kindof difficult) to do reliably, and opens you up to possibly returning your finger somewhere you don't want to (like the trigger).

The upshot is, you have to use your support hand to pop the mag, while holding the rifle with the main hand, which slows you down a bit.

On the plus side, the stock G36 mags come with mag clips molded right into them. This actually makes it easier to use them when clipped together than with the M16 series of weapons.

Grab mag with hand, work release with thumb, pull it out of the well, shift it a bit over and put in the fresh mag. Of course with the beta mag, its a moot point, what with 100rds of bad news waiting for someone to tell. smile.gif
Arethusa
I have honestly never heard of anyone actually using mag clips/clamps outside of some pictures of SWAT/HRT units, and even those were quite rare. If you're in an actual battle, open mags are a great way to jam.
Raygun
On a totally unrelated note...

OICW-1 was officially cancelled 10/31/05. XM8 is no longer.
Kagetenshi
frown.gif

~J
mmu1
QUOTE (Raygun @ Nov 3 2005, 10:38 PM)
On a totally unrelated note...

OICW-1 was officially cancelled 10/31/05. XM8 is no longer.

I won't celebrate until there's reason to believe they'll replace this silly-ass program with an actual competition aimed at selecting a good family of rifles...

The XM-8 was (practically speaking) nothing but a G-36 vismod with a much too short barrel.
Arethusa
HK416 ftw!

At least, that is the rumor I've been hearing.
Kagetenshi
But it looked cool, which is all I ever really cared about with regard to it.


~J
mmu1
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
But it looked cool, which is all I ever really cared about with regard to it.


~J

I never really liked the way it looked - I think the HK G-36 looks much better, without all the unnecessary plastic bits. nyahnyah.gif
Arethusa
The full size G36 is hideous, solid rifle though it may be.

Maybe they'll just go crazy and give everyone SCARs.
Austere Emancipator
Nice to see how the G36K has become the leading Hollywood prop gun. Too bad they put a P90 on the poster of Doom instead of the guns they carry in the movie. Not going to happen with the SCAR unless it becomes more or less standard with a branch of the US military -- that thing is damn ugly.
Critias
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Nice to see how the G36K has become the leading Hollywood prop gun.

Well, they're kind of the "blocky SUV" of the modern AR family. It's the same reason people like Humvees, Jeeps, etc. Sometimes something that's all angular and chunky is cool looking.
Raygun
Aside from smaller orders from SOCOM (for the FN SCAR or possibly HK416/417), I think we're pretty much stuck with the Colt M4 and the FNMI M16A2/A4 until we decide to move away from the 5.56x45mm.
Critias
QUOTE (Raygun)
Aside from smaller orders from SOCOM (for the FN SCAR or possibly HK416/417), I think we're pretty much stuck with the Colt M4 and the FNMI M16A2/A4 until we decide to move away from the 5.56x45mm.

Ghost Recon notwithstanding.
otomik
QUOTE (Raygun)
On a totally unrelated note...

OICW-1 was officially cancelled 10/31/05. XM8 is no longer.

QUOTE
This action has been taken in order for the Army to reevaluate its priorites for small caliber weapons, and to incorporate emerging requirements identified during Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom. The Government will also incorporate studies looking into current capability gaps during said reevaluation.
interesting, this could be very good.

capability gaps I'd like them to explore:
1. a more sustained fire capable LMG version with quick change barrel (like Beretta 70/84 or Steyr AUG) and firing from a open bolt (cools faster, not as accurate but neither is a warped barrel, the DMR version can pick up the slack).
2. a more versatile cartridge, perhaps one with a general purpose loading and a long range loading (like the new Chinese 5.8mm has).
3. use of new materials like carbon fiber stocks and polymer cased ammunition
4. screw the oicw thing, I bet we could get airbursting munitions working if we didn't mandate it be fired from huge mag-fed automatic canon, how about a simpler single shot modular underbarrel 25mm canon?


In other news, I bought a new gun, Beretta 92SB Compact born in 1984. wood grips, blued finish, rounded trigger guard, very classy. smokin.gif

my favorite SMG: the Thompson
Oracle
QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE (Oracle)
Wasn't it "Commando"?

It was, but Colt (of course) has "Commando" trademarked. HK ran into the same problem with using "HKM4" (now HK416). Colt has "M4" trademarked as well.

Arghl. Stupid. The G36K has been specially developed for the needs of the German KSK ( Commando Special Forces, directly translated to english ). That was what the "K" stood for. Kommando. frown.gif
Fix-it
Bwahahaha

Tiger stripe desert eagle... rotfl.gif rotfl.gif

sorry to change the subject, but that was just too funny.
Lindt
For when your pimp needs someone splattered all over the sidewalk.
I suppose its the camo tank idea, "Where do you hide it? Anywhere you like"

Raygun
QUOTE (Critias)
Ghost Recon notwithstanding.

Or Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory (which actually has South Koreans running around with XM8s). Probably most of Clancy's recent games.

QUOTE (otomik)
capability gaps I'd like them to explore:
1. a more sustained fire capable LMG version with quick change barrel (like Beretta 70/84 or Steyr AUG) and firing from a open bolt (cools faster, not as accurate but neither is a warped barrel, the DMR version can pick up the slack).

I'd like them to figure out that a rifle and a machine gun are two different things, and that trying to make both out of one common platform, while a good idea from a logistical standpoint, is a bad idea from a practical standpoint. There's a reason why every attempt to do this with the M16/M4 platform has proven unsatisfactory. One is made for light weight, one is made to sustain fire. The two are not compatible.

QUOTE
2. a more versatile cartridge, perhaps one with a general purpose loading and a long range loading (like the new Chinese 5.8mm has).

I would like to see that as well, though I don't think it's likely to happen any time soon. So long as they're ordering 5.56x45mm by the boatload to sustain operations in Iraq and Afghanistan (and with the nutcase in Iran talking a bunch of shit, him next), I doubt we're going to try and pull the Big Switch in the middle of all that. We did it during Vietnam and ran into some pretty serious teething problems.

QUOTE
3. use of new materials like carbon fiber stocks and polymer cased ammunition

I haven't been keeping really close tabs on the progress of it, but I think PCA has a good chance of coming into play no matter what cartridge or rifle we're using. That stuff is pretty cool.

QUOTE
4. screw the oicw thing, I bet we could get airbursting munitions working if we didn't mandate it be fired from huge mag-fed automatic canon, how about a simpler single shot modular underbarrel 25mm canon?

An idea I have also advocated for a very long time.

QUOTE
In other news, I bought a new gun, Beretta 92SB Compact born in 1984. wood grips, blued finish, rounded trigger guard, very classy. smokin.gif

Sweet. Did you ever pick up one of those 951 copies from SOG? I saw one at a gun show and almost bought it. That particular one was a little too beat up, though.

QUOTE (Oracle)
Arghl. Stupid. The G36K has been specially developed for the needs of the German KSK ( Commando Special Forces, directly translated to english ). That was what the "K" stood for. Kommando. frown.gif

Well, that's certainly a logical inference to make, but it's an incorrect one. The K stands for the same thing it's stood for with preceeding HK rifles such as the G3KA4, HK33K, etc... Kurz; Short, as in the barrel is shorter than the standard model. I mentioned this earlier in the thread.
SMDVogrin
QUOTE (Oracle)
QUOTE (Raygun @ Nov 3 2005, 09:36 PM)
QUOTE (Oracle)
Wasn't it "Commando"?

It was, but Colt (of course) has "Commando" trademarked. HK ran into the same problem with using "HKM4" (now HK416). Colt has "M4" trademarked as well.

Arghl. Stupid. The G36K has been specially developed for the needs of the German KSK ( Commando Special Forces, directly translated to english ). That was what the "K" stood for. Kommando. frown.gif

Just a note: The G-36K (for Kurz) is NOT the same weapon as the G-36C (for Compact, not Commando).

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as14-e.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_G36

Different weight, size, and barrel lengths.
Raygun
It's a good thing people actually read these threads, otherwise we might get a bit redundant.
FrostyNSO
Getting a little cranky?

btw: gonna be Ivory Coast come Feb. Score!
Raygun
Maybe a little. smile.gif

Mo money! Good luck, man! Keep in touch if you can.
Fix-it
QUOTE (SMDVogrin)
[QUOTE=Oracle]
It was, but Colt (of course) has "Commando" trademarked. HK ran into the same problem with using "HKM4" (now HK416). Colt has "M4" trademarked as well. [/QUOTE]
Arghl. Stupid. The G36K has been specially developed for the needs of the German KSK ( Commando Special Forces, directly translated to english ). That was what the "K" stood for. Kommando. frown.gif[/QUOTE]
Just a note: The G-36K (for Kurz) is NOT the same weapon as the G-36C (for Compact, not Commando).

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as14-e.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_G36

Different weight, size, and barrel lengths.

This was covered already. You need to read the thread.


...


biggrin.gif

sorry ray. don't shoot me. *Dives behind cover*
Raygun
Nah. Just take this moment to thank the gods that you're not within wedgie range. rotate.gif
Kagetenshi
So what would you do if they ever invented a remote wedgie machine?

~J
Raygun
If by "they" you mean "you" (as in me), I would control governments through repeated wedgification of their leaders, in order to bring about the days of the Grand Kingdom of Raygunonia. Duh. Plans would commence shortly after trademarking the terms PowerWedge™ and TacticalModularVirtualAtomicWedgieGeneratorExtreme™, and of course, testing said machine on Fix-it. smile.gif
otomik
QUOTE
One is made for light weight, one is made to sustain fire. The two are not compatible.
a bold assertion. i think the m16 direct gas action is the problem there, if you mean that as the "made for ligth weight" reason then that observation wouldn't apply to other lmgs like the Steyr AUG or the HK-23E which has the same classic mg-42 action still in use today italy, austria, germany etc. the galil lmg had to be replaced by the negev, certainly the galil is a robust gun but it doesn't have a quick change barrel. lightweight machine guns like the M60e3 have failed, of course the M60 was always shaky and used the FG42 action. anyway you've given me something to think about.

QUOTE
Sweet. Did you ever pick up one of those 951 copies from SOG? I saw one at a gun show and almost bought it. That particular one was a little too beat up, though.
yeah the ones i see at gunshows are pretty beat up. i was looking for something to carry and i didn't really like the controls (not lefty friendly) but loved the look. you still packing the usp compact .40? a friend of mine got a p229 .40 and is now thinking of going for a USP Compact .40

my beretta has been flawless, my new fighting technique is unstoppable grinbig.gif
Oriondarkstar
I wonder whether the M4 carbine would be considered a SMG or a light assault rifle?If a Thompson"TommyGun" is an SMG then a M4 should be one as well....
Im an armorer in the Marine Corps...I know that means I should know.....well I don't I can fix it with my eyes closed but I never paid much attention to the designations and whatnot...
If It can be considered an SMG then it is by far my favorite due to its flexibility, reliability, repairability, and Accuracy(Match Rifle Variant).
If not then my vote goes to the P90. Its a nice piece of hardware but a pain to repair......"In my limited opinion and experience"....which is I have repaired maybe 10 of them compare to maybe several hundred M4's and several thousand M16's nyahnyah.gif.....And I admit half the pain was ordering the parts for the P90. I do like the operation of the P90. In my experience it has low Recoil, tight groups, lightweight, no instances of jamming.

Raygun
QUOTE (otomik)
a bold assertion. i think the m16 direct gas action is the problem there, if you mean that as the "made for ligth weight" reason then that observation wouldn't apply to other lmgs like the Steyr AUG or the HK-23E

The Steyr AUG HBAR "LMG" doesn't fire from an open bolt (but can be configured to do so at the armorer level by switching out the bolt and trigger group) and it's not belt-fed. Lacking those features, its really more what we would call an "automatic rifle" over here (or a "light support weapon" as the Brits say), thus it falls outside of my definition of a true Light Machine Gun (as well as the definition of the OICW-1 outline). It does have a quick-change barrel (though more for changing the length of the barrel to suit different environments than to support sustained fire; I suppose it could). At any rate, the AUG is a rifle. It makes for a very half-assed LMG that would not make par on this side of the pond.

The HK23E, however, does fall more in line. Though it really isn't quite as flexible as the OICW-1 outline demands, it's probably the best example of a rifle + LMG system, being that it can be either belt or magazine-fed, has a quick-change barrel, and fires from an open bolt in automatic modes only. (Incidentally, I'd totally forgotten about it. These days I tend to think MG4, which has replaced the HK23E in German service, IIRC. The HK23E also lost to the FN Minimi in the SAW trials for some reason.)

I suppose it could be done, I just don't see it turning out very well. It's been attempted several times in the past, apparently without much satisfaction. Machine guns tend to be beefy for a good reason. Anyway, if we really are serious about this kind of thing, why haven't we given the Shrike a shot?

QUOTE
yeah the ones i see at gunshows are pretty beat up. i was looking for something to carry and i didn't really like the controls (not lefty friendly)

I hear you on that one. Stupid crossbolt safety and mag release... Gah!

QUOTE
But loved the look. you still packing the usp compact .40? a friend of mine got a p229 .40 and is now thinking of going for a USP Compact .40

No, there's someone else around here with that particular piece, not me (BitBasher, I think?). I did have a full size USP40 many a moon ago, so I understand the confusion.

QUOTE
my beretta has been flawless, my new fighting technique is unstoppable biggrin.gif

Is your defense impenetrable? smile.gif

QUOTE (Oriondarkstar)
I wonder whether the M4 carbine would be considered a SMG or a light assault rifle?If a Thompson"TommyGun" is an SMG then a M4 should be one as well....

No. The M4 fires a rifle cartridge (and being shorter than the M16 rifle is thus a carbine) and the Thompson fires a pistol cartridge (thus submachine gun, and in fact, it's the origin of the term).

QUOTE
Im an armorer in the Marine Corps...I know that means I should know.....well I don't I can fix it with my eyes closed but I never paid much attention to the designations and whatnot...

They certainly can be used in the same role, so there's really not a lot of difference from a practical application point of view.
Siege
Oh, mommy...

Hey Ray - when can we expect to see numbers for the Shrike on your website?

I want a new toy! grinbig.gif

-Siege
Musashi Forever
QUOTE (Siege @ Nov 5 2005, 08:03 AM)
Oh, mommy...

Hey Ray - when can we expect to see numbers for the Shrike on your website?

I want a new toy! grinbig.gif

-Siege

Yes, please work it up for us! biggrin.gif


And if I could ask a personal favor...might you work up some rules for the Mateba Unica 6 Auto-Revolver. That's something that just seems at home in shadowrun.
otomik
QUOTE (Raygun)
[QUOTE=otomik]Anyway, if we really are serious about this kind of thing, why haven't we given the Shrike a shot?

[QUOTE]yeah the ones i see at gunshows are pretty beat up. i was looking for something to carry and i didn't really like the controls (not lefty friendly)[/QUOTE]
I hear you on that one. Stupid crossbolt safety and mag release... Gah!

[QUOTE]But loved the look. you still packing the usp compact .40? a friend of mine got a p229 .40 and is now thinking of going for a USP Compact .40[/QUOTE]
No, there's someone else around here with that particular piece, not me (BitBasher, I think?). I did have a full size USP40 many a moon ago, so I understand the confusion.

[QUOTE]my beretta has been flawless, my new fighting technique is unstoppable biggrin.gif[/QUOTE]
Is your defense impenetrable? smile.gif

hmm shrike has:
1. quick change barrel
2. belt feed system (with magazine feed)
3. cleaner gas-piston action
does it fire open bolt?

i think the problem why we don't have a m16 lmg might have something to do with colt, they don't seem like a competently run company. they had lots of great ideas like the Colt Scamp and the Colt SSP. maybe they just haven't been able to put in as much resources into R&D with their union troubles, UAW is killing Colt.
http://www.nrtw.org/b/nr_283.php

if you're taking requests, an STI LS40/LS9 would be really cool, a 1911 with a conceal of 8 probably.
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