I want to make firearms that are very common today availalble in my SR game. I have stats already, but how much should they cost?

These older weapons will come from two sources. One, actual 50-year old weapons. I bet SR3 already has rules for used stuff... Two, I imagine there will be people with "shadow factories" making lower tech firearms with automated factories.

So, my question is, what kind of price cut should I use for a 2001 Glock, or 1911, or Beretta that is made with 2050s production machinery?

The actual vintage weapons would be antiques, and thus highly priced (dependant on condition). More than likely the manufactured knockoffs will be sold as genuine by unscrupulous individuals. I don't really see the point to buying knockoffs of old weapons when you can get newer ones for as cheap as they are (or take them off of corpses if all else fails).

If memory serves, SR4 lists the L36 as being about 150 nuyen. Fabbing your own firearm, if you had access to CAD/CAM and the raw materials needed, really shouldn't be hard.

100-150 nuyen for 100-150 year old handgun design sounds reasonable. Hell, the most expensive part will be getting the old ammo needed for it.

Well cared for weapons can last much longer than 50 years. One of the pieces in the family arsenal is an M1911 (not A1, note... original 1911, made sometime between 1911 and 1920). Asides from some minor rust damage on the exterior, the piece still functions reliably, and is fairly accurate.

I wouldn't call a circa 2000 weapon an "antique," in Shadowrun's time. I'll grant there's roughly a ten-year difference here, but there are a ton of old SKS's and whatnot you can grab for plenty cheap, IRL, that are from the 1950's-1960's.

I have trouble picturing all the AK-47's in the world suddenly becoming valued collectable antiques.

Meh...maybe. Let's pause and consider. AK-47s are the the third most common commodity in the universe (Hydrogen and Stupidity being 1 and 2 respectively). They're cheaply mass produced and sold to everyone that wants them. Riddle me this, what's the most commonly captured and destroyed weapon taken from rebels and insurgents around the world? I think the AK-47 will go the way of Confederate money...so common it's destroyed without thought. By the time people want them again, there's not many left.

Regarding ammo, in my game, the standard ammo in 2050 is much the same as today. .380, 9mm, .40, 10mm, .45ACP are still the big names in handgun/SMG, 5.56mm, 7.62mm are still big in rifles.

I am still thinking about the 6mm-class hybrids that are the rage right now.

thats a really tricky subject because the way a gun is made can change without the actual model changing.

early SIGs had a stamped metal slide for inexpensive fabrication, with the introduction of .40S&W and less expensive machining processes you can get a .40 caliber 226 or 229 that uses a machined slide. I suspect Glock also did the same with their previously stampled metal slide pistols, at least with some models, the Glock 36 has a slide thinner than the Glock 21, Glock 30 and even the 17.

many people also find that metal injection molded parts and polymer parts have been introduced to weapons that didn't previously have them. you'll find 1911 people and Beretta people talk about this occasionally, in most cases it isn't noticable in some cases it is.

Some guns need to change processes because otherwise it would impossible to produce them at competitive prices, in some cases that means that you have to shift production of certain parts to another country. IMBEL of Brazil manufactures the Slides and Frames for all Springfield Armory 1911s, to my knowledge the only other quality 1911s made at that good of a price are made by Norinco of China and Armscor of the Phillipines.

now my 2 cents: with canon 2050 production technology logically everything should be made by nanites so all prices are about raw materials, transportation, r&d, operating nanite production facilities, marketing including media synergy of product placement with trid studios, lawsuits by anti-gun idiots, lobbyists in washington keeping the idiots at bay and defending 2nd amendment rights. then there's pricing by what the market will bear because you don't have to offer this product at the cheapest possible, just cheaper than someone using older non-nanite tech (such as slaves making knockoffs that try to ride on your coat-tails and undermine all that money you spent on branding like Taurus's PT-92). just like the proverb goes, you don't have to run faster than the zombies, just faster than the slowest guy running from the zombies.

of course all this is ridiculous because if things are made by nanites people should be using superstrong and lightweight superalloys and not Uberheavium. So I think you need to follow the proverb and price it whatever your players are willing to pay especially if it's superior in some aspects to it's 2050's counterpart, which is shouldn't. Spycraft went this route, if by stats it's inferior, even if it's fantastically obscure and a collectors item an agency has no problem procuring them at incredible prices (Steyr ACR is cheap), if it's a great weapon by stats even if it's ubiquituous and has a street price of less than a crackwhore handjob it's fanstically difficult for the agency to procure (AK-47 in spycraft again).

Makarovs don't go for less than 200 dollars, really I haven't seen any decent surplus gun for less than 200. so I think 200-300 is a realistic baseline for a old used surplus weapon still functional and somewhat competitive with current day models. Now you need to do something to increase the price from there to what your players are willing to pay because what if it's better than shadowrun's guns?

useful ways to extort money from the PCs

polymer naturally degrades over the decades, the frame has cracked, all models will have a similar problem with cracked frames because it's no longer in production you must have a new frame custom made.

this weapon wasn't made with smartlink compatability in mind, you're going to have to take it to a gunsmith to make some modifications (alternatively, they take it to a smith and only an exterior smartlink that reduces concealability or something else that degrades the stats is possible or it's entirely impossible)

basic things like extra magazines and ammo cost a lot because it's no longer in production. gunsmith/reloader must find exotic dies and charge you a boatload for ammo and certain types of ammo won't be available ("you want APDS for 8mm Nambu, yeah right chummer )

Thank you all for your input.

"Shadowrun has waffled on this a couple of times, but the current drive seems to be towards most of the ammunition you can get being caseless."

I wouldn't say anything bad about a GM who decided otherwise, but I feel the downsides of caseless ammo outweigh the benefits, particularly when polymer cased ammo becomes practical. Thus, all guns are still cased in my little corner of the multiverse.

"Remember that SR cannon's AK-97 is supposed to be from 1997"

Likewise, my personal take on this is that the AK-97 is little more than a AK101 or AK103 that is modified for smartgun compatibility. YMMV

To me, the biggest functional difference between modern(2060) and modern(2005) weapons is that the 2060s weapons will be smartgun-ready, ie microservos in the magazine release, safety lever, maybe even a mechanism to charge the weapon.
Weapons from now would not have any of that functionality. If you attached a smartgun to a mount like a modern tactical light, all it would do is put a reticle in your view.

So, do I expect all my players to shelve their Manhunters and Predators for USPs and Glocks? No. But I like giving them the option.

And a gun-fu adept with a pair of chrome 1911s just has so many inherent style points to me.

It is like comparing a 60s muscle car to a modern import tuner. Both are cool, but different.

"All it would do is put a reticle in your view."

I can change my freaking mags and charge the weapon manually. PLEASE give me that reticle!

Heh. I'll dual-wield. One is for when the other runs out. My right hand is holding a Predator. 10mm Caseless, limited production run, solid chrome and stamped from a die signed by Damian Knight himself. And I had it Dikoted.

The other is a Colt M1911A1 so old it was carried through the gates of Auschwitz when the GIs showed up. And yes, I have documentation to prove it. The internal workings have been expertly reproduced by master gunsmiths, and it's been made to accept a Smartgunlink unit. The exteroir is old and pitted and has that "I've been through every war in the last century and a half" look

Both of them are quite, quite deadly.

BTW, I was in an argument with a friend of mine. I have trouble believing that .45 ACP will have any good performance against 2060s low-profile armor, because it's a subsonic round. Raygun, a little help here? I think the .45 would be good if you bypassed armor or shot someone who was unarmored, but I'm not seeing it doing much against an armored target.

Of course, there's also the reasons my street sam uses caseless rounds in his sniper rifle:
1. No ballistic evidence left behind. Well, I suppose that there's the fragments from the EX explosive round he uses left in the corpses of the people he shoots, but they wouldn't be able to identify anything other than the use of EX explosive rounds from that, would they?
2. No sound of cases hitting the ground after the shot. Sure, there's still the loud ripping noise of the supersonic bullets, but that tends to be difficult to locate, according to Raygun's site.

Doesn't your street sam use caseless rounds in his sniper rifle because caseless rounds are the SR default?

I think they would be able to. The reason i say that is because the manufactuer of the Ex-Ex knows the thing is supposed to explode. and the powers that be will still want the ability to trace what's left of it.

Some kind of material specific to the round/manufacturer maybe?

I can see the market for caseless ammo going a long way due to the simple fact that you don't want to leave forensics.

That seems to be the advantage of caseless to me.

Also, with the ability to use advanced chemicals and compounds, as well as nanotech produced materials I would not be surprised in the slightest to see caseless ammo being normal by 2060s.

The original makers of Shadowrun in the 80's didn't see wireless internet taking off either, and it did, far beyond peoples expectation.

The advances made in a matter of decades are extremely potent. It's half a century they have to develop things. Should be pretty easy to surpass our expectations.

As near as I have been able to tell, technology has advanced exponentially since the industrial age, not linearly.

People with more knowhow, what were the common use guns of 50 years ago like? Rate of fire and such, accuracy, bullet design, so forth?

This thread is like some sort of magic knowledge sifter, easily and efficiently seperating those who know what they're talking about and get it from those and who don't, with just a glance. Neat.

Compared to the original StG-44, assault rifles today are likely to be lighter (plastic parts over metal or wood), have better ergonomics (partly due to the ease of shaping plastic), and have better iron sights.

In addition, the assault rifles of today have a whole host of non-iron sighting devices that smply weren't available then.

An AK-47 that rolled of the assembly lines in 1948 will still compare favorably to any assualt rifle currently in use. (It will be heavy (no plastic parts), have so-so ergonomics (mostly a manufacturing cost issue, fine fidly bits cost more), and be somewhat inaccurate (once again, a manufacturing costs issue. The higher cost copies of the AK-47 are accurate enough)

A 1911, originally used to gun down my crazy, knife wielding ancestors more than 90 years ago, when compared to a modern pistol (Glock 21?, Sig 220) in .45 caliber will be heavy, not as ergonomic, not as drop-safe, and not as accurate, but will still fire the same size bullets at the same speeds the Glock will.

tell me more about your knifewielding ancestors. my great grandfather served in the phillipines as a quartermaster and someday I'll inherit his M1911.

Okay, fair enough. Then again, by the year 2064, do you expect anyone other than histry majors to give a good goddamn about some war that happened ~120 years ago? Anyway, I wasen't fact-checking; I could just as easily have said hit the beaches at Normandy. The point of Fluff isen't nessessarily to be correct as it is to be good, as long as it's consistant.

If you say so.

And yes, people are. Just ask my buddy, the Peloponnesian War freak.

I guess it is your assertion that no american soldier ever passed through the gates of Auschwitz? I find that hard to believe. I would assume they sent guys there to verify the atrocities.

Replace "Auschwitz" with some other notorious camp that the US Army _did_ liberate, and voila, your fluff works again.

Dumpshock: Everything from ballistics theory to history, in one neat package. Oh yeah, they do some of that Shadowrun stuff, too.


Raygun, my point was that given how prevalant low-profile (IE: Looks like clothes) body armor is in Shadowrun, would .45 ACP be a load worth carrying? I'm thinking it probably woulden't be.

The classic 9m damage code in my mind, before seeing the image of the predator, was that it was at least a .44 magnum. However, since it seems to be 10mm (and caseless,) which is roughly .39 caliber (assuming I've done my conversions right.)

However, what I'm thinking of is that the .45 ACP is a subsonic round, and as the box of truth has proven, performs very poorly against any sort of armor at all. I'm thinking it would have fallen out of favor, instead favor going to magnum rounds; IE, the 10mm Caseless rounds Ares makes for use in their Predators. Seems like it would be a magnum round by today's standard.

Wonder what's the real difference between 10mm Caseless, .357 Magnum, and .44 Magnum as we know them today? Obviously, the caseing, but performance wise? Would the difference be enough to give it any sort of game-wise differences? I'm thinking maybe that .50 AE, or something similar in size and power, would be the 10M Super Warhawk round.

Abraham Flatau's Killer Donut bullet

I think this would be a good replacement for APDS in pistol calibers, doesn't fit the same old description but it is armor piercing and uses a discarding sabot. APRO and AFKD both have been known to cause feeding problems because of their shape. Massad Ayoob in this book I'm reading, Gun Digest Book of Sig Sauer Pistols, cautions against using really high velocity exotic bullets for defense because they don't cycle at the same velocities and so have unsatisfactory accuracy and feeding.

what was the concentration camp in Band of Brothers?

Landsberg

Has anyone done gelatin (or perhaps anesthetized pig) testing with the round? I keep wondering if the tissue not displaced but simply moved through the hollow center, and the permanent wound that's probably smaller in diameter than the projectile itself, will lead to not a lot of bleeding?