That is only part of it. The Texans had more of a valid complaint against Mexico City than The Confederates had with Washington. True they were msotly proslavers and Catholic Mexico was turning anti-slavery but the spark that set off the war was the fact that the legitimacy of Santa Anna's Government was highly questionable. It was seen that he had siezed power, had chucked the constitution and would then stomp on the upstart province, which had been obnoxiously loud, to rally the people behind him to get them to forget how he'd come into power.

Similar the the Argentine Junta that attacked the Falklands in 1982 to try and distract the people at home from the failing economy in a wave of patriotism.

remember Mexico has never really forgiven the USA for taking Texas and California from them. Look at those states and think how much wealth modern Mexico would have it it included those as provinces.

Good summation sir.

So this thread was started by a texan looking for an exscuse to cheer for the home team? Why not write up a divergent timeline then? One where the Texans come out on top, and present it here as a sort of case study. Then we can see your logic, or at worst your story telling ability/creativity.

brennanhawkwood missed one fairly major point--at about the same time Texas was looking for help against Aztlan, Aztlan was looking for help against Texas. one of the reasons Aztlan only took half of Texas is that the NAN refused assistance to Aztlan's armed forces.

I find this thread moderately amusing. Especialy the Texans atleast at first defending it saying it would have never happened.

But seriously, with everything going on at the time, I'm prety sure Texas didn't know what hit them, till they hit just about Austin...which became a virtual Stalingrad of sorts. Azzies tried to take it but weren't completely successfull and Texas managed to stop them there. But instead of Texas pushing them back out, its become a cold to moderately hot war.

In all honesty I'd be more happy that no one likes the Azzies and tries to twart their grabs for more power and teritory at every turn. Otherwise there probably would be no texas, only Aztlan...

brennan, check Aztlan page 40. it's where i'm getting the NAN thing from. in the Aztlaner's version of history, at least, the NAN refused to aid them when asked.

i must say, i'm suprised this thread has been kept alive for this long.

runefire32 - based on the little bit of "research" i did and what little i know about the shadowrun world/metaplot/whatever. i just couldn't see it happening. Now that i am more informed, it's a little more beliveable...

Paul - As far as a divergent timeline, i thought about it, but i don't GM so i didn't see the point.

Although I did brainstorm on it i for a bit. The only things i came up with were that the azzies were stopped in San Antonio, Alamo repeat (sorta) and the I-35 corridor, between Laredo and San Antonio, being a constant give and take situation. Also my story telling abilities would definitely be 'at worst', yikes! Oh, and Laredo was pretty much in ruins due to the constant fighting going on there.

/casts a resurrection spell

One thing to add to the timeline, remember Mexico breaks up in the fictional timeline and before 2012 tons of Mexicans (even more than now) flood north into the states that border Mexico, almost certainly many of those arrived in Texas and were part of the local populace when Aztlan came rollling across the border with military assets and magic.

So, we don't doubt that Aztlan was able to carve the new border it carved in the SR4 universe... "We don't have to explain it, it's magic" works so well in Marvel after all ... *cough* spiderman *cough*....

In our game (about to start) we're playing with some concepts. The first is that, well, for 20 years, south Tejas was doing better under Aztlan than it was under the Gabachos (Anglos). Then... things change.

This was the writeup:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20826

Actually the main game credits are to Bob Charrette and Paul Hume. They did Aftermath (thank god there is no combat flowchart in SR), Bushido and Space Opera before SR. They may have been geeks, but they weren't young geek. The insane worldbuilding was just typical crappy FASA "Sell the Sizzle" work.

write it down to self irony (or whatever the term is). yes, that very chapter of shadows of europe was written by locals.
hell, i was even in on the brainstorm until the idea of getting fasa to print the book took of (then NDA's started show up and people walked their separate ways).

So I just looked at the map in the back of the BBB. To me "THEY got half of TX" isn't quit right - 1/3 at most. Also looking at the contour of the new border it seems like they really just pushed it back across 200 miles of nothing. Let's break down what's in that 200 mile buffer. Demographically, you have El Paso and Brownsville. In those towns today the boarder really a made up line that people exploit for cheep liquor and labor. I could easily seem the population not giving a hoot about whose face was on the paper currency they use to wipe there ass. Geographically, you don't really have any geography to speak of until you hit the Balcones Escarpment (Austin) and if you look at the map that's what was reclaimed. Any mobile military that could take the NE face of the Rio Grande would basically instantly roll up to, well, where they line in the BBB is drawn. Historically speaking I forget exactly where the old line was drawn, but I know that there was a lot of hanky panky around there the actually Mexico-Texas/USA boarder would be. IIRC claims about the Rio Grande we're use as part of the justification for the Mexican-American war. I could easily imagine the Azzies thinking they we're just trimming the fat and not even invading the the old province proper.

Why would Huitzilopochtli "answer prayers far more often Jesus and Jehova ever did"? After the Awakening, magic was real for everybody... including Christians. Also Christianity is doing quite well thank you.

----------------------------------------------------------

*OOC* We have to take the whole fluff setup of Shadowrun with a oil tanker size chunks of salt. Below are the reasons that the fluff of Shadowrun is... unlikely

-- NO nation is going to allow corporations to have their own armed forces. Government people are the ultimate "small penis dude" They have the power to blow the crap out of anybody that ticks them off. Also most corporations would NOT want a military as it's DAMN expensive.

-- People would revolt if a company did 1% of what they did in Shadowrun. And don't give me that "People are sheep." line. That only works if people think that they are being taken care of. You have corps in Shadowrun that kill people for the giggles of it.

-- The native American indian population in the US as of 2005 was only 1% of the total population (about 3 million people). The idea that they would be able to take over as much of the US as they did... poppy cock! Sure they would have initial success... until the Great Ghost Dance ran out of power... then the nukes would remove them from the face of the planet.

-- Does ANYONE here think that the people of Mexico would allow a religion that revels in ripping the hearts of HEALTHY people? People like to go to church, worship, AND GET HOME ALIVE!

Shadowrun is based on stereotypes taken to an obscene level. You couldn't have a game where Runners could do 1% of the shit they do in the game if there was a strong central government to stomp on them. Don't get me wrong, the cyber/biotech of shadowrun is one of the best I've ever seen... the fluff... well I mash the "I believe" button a whole hell of a lot when I read it.

Two interesting thoughts I had:

One: Current RW events that might suggest why the entire state didn't rise up en masse is the current (and by SR canon, presumptively continuing) 'Anyone from Mexico bring Mexico with them' deal that was 'revealed' during the immigration debates of last year. In short: Vincente Fox (and presumably others, but frankly I could care less) has said, in America no less, several times that immigrants, the sons and daughters, the grandchildren of immigrants from Mexico should consider themselves loyal to Mexico over, say, the United States (or wherever they consider 'home')... which smacks of deliberate tribalism. Presumably, he's planning to start taxing them or something Certainly that could be used for justification of many tejanos supporting the Aztlaners over the 'Texans'.


Second: And far less controversial/speculative: Texas is big, wide and mostly empty. Its population density is not all that high, despite the apparent fanaticism of the natives (and the would be natives... texas wannabes... yes, virginia, they exist...), for the most part the Aztlan Army (and I hate to say it, but saying 'megacorp' as if that is somehow a magic "i win" button, particularly early in setting canon, doesn't replace logic... Mega's have power from economics more than military might. Its hard to buy off fanatic Texans, and 'every citizen' is a pretty damn big militia...) could just speed across more or less 'no mans land' until they hit towns, cities and whatnot... towns might not put up that much of a fight, but as the Texans got organized, the invasion bogs down until it grinds to a halt in Austin. The Texans are now organized and defending turf, but find it hard to push back the entreched Aztlan interests and the stalemate comes into play. Neither side has the resources to budge the other, the Texans have their pride and plenty of motivated citizens with guns, the Aztlaners have the backing of all of Mexico and teh wealth/power of being a Mega, not to mention a maturing military. However, I imagine that a posting to South Texas is only slightly better than a posting to the Yucatan, with the exception of Austin (as diplomats from both sides probably keep the guerilla hell to a minimum inside the city... and the VIPs obviously gravitate there, leading to higher security, leading to less guerilla risk (while simultaniously raising the prize for an Texan who pulls off a run in South Austin...)

See?

But I'm not texan, I only have six guns...

there was a skill "flowchart" in SR2 (and most likely SR1) for use when defaulting.

One thing I want to take issue with there... the GGD proved that magic was a real, powerful and unpredictable opponent in the modern age. The USA/UCAS didn't have any clue what they were dealing with. They had no way to know if the GGD was over, or just on the back burner at that point. They were facing a foe they *could not* fight reliably. When you fight an opponent where Nature Herself fights against you, how do you win?

As to the masses, have you seen Americans of late? They (we) are able to be corralled into doing a LOT of things that are completely contrary to common sense, given the right circumstances. You simply need powerful events to get people to drop their guard long enough for new laws or rules to take place. In the SR world, that trigger was the Lone Eagle event, more than anything else. You have to look at the specific incidents along the way. I don't like the SR4 history because it skims too much. Go back through the original histories in the previous editions. The court rulings that started granting corporate power made a lot of sense in a lot of ways because of *how* they happened. It was sudden, unexpected events that resulted in necessary decisions, and those decisions could have gone either way. In the dystopian world of SR, they went in favor of the corps. In our world, it could go either way, depending on the levels of fear or logic ruling at the time of the incidents.

A few points:

Chuck, see the San Francisco thread. I also feel the pain of a fictional storyline in which my home has been invaded and occupied by imperialists.

Say that more or less every adult Texan, or at least most male and many female Texans, own and are proficient with a variety of small arms. Now, take that large number of individuals with small arms, and attack them with an integrated-forces army with light infantry, heavy infantry, armor, artillery, and air support. I think the army tends to win. Texans are fierce, no doubt, but how well do they cooperate with each other, beyond their neighbors? Well enough to coordinate flanking maneuvers, advance and fall back by leapfrog, all that good tactical stuff? And what use are any of those eight firearms against incoming mortar and howitzer shells, or tanks? German warriors in 200 BC were fierce and skilled; but the Roman legions tended to win. Yes, Texas also is the location of US military bases, but in the SR timeline, they lose some organization in the process of the CAS secession.

There might be some interesting smuggling, arms trading, extractions, and other shadowrun activites on the border.

As for religion and magic, that's worth its own thread, and has had one or two.

hell, i suspect that there are just as many armed citizens in iraq as there are in texas...

The one common thing I've seen with every person who calls themselves a Texan is pride for their state. I was born there, but I don't like the state, and consistently refer to myself as not being a Texan. But those who were born there and have that pride, or got it after moving there have that pride in spades you just really can't understand unless you feel it. It's nearly a fanaticism, really. If some group threatened their state as a whole, you can bet that true Texans would rise up all over the place to fight them. Coordinated? Not at first, no, but as soon as someone got up on a platform and started beltin' orders, they'd pay attention and start working together. Far too many are current or ex-military or paramilitary types and vs an enemy of Texas, they would fight and die together. I'd bet money on it.

I know a lot of Tejanos, I live in a semi-barrio, my family has lived on the same farm in north Texas since 1895 (the date on the deed) and both I and my wife have ancestors on the Texas Ranger rolls at the museum in Waco. I'm as proud of my state as anyone here, and I own more than 8 guns...

Even still, I actually have no problem believing that when Aztlan comes rolling across the border, the Spanish speakers of Texas (legal, illegal, new to Texas or been here a while) side with the Azzies. I can be brutally honest, we "gabos" treat Mexicans like dirt, they know it, we know it - regardless of how we try to spin it. The recent immigration debates allowed the rest of the country to see what's under the scabs here in Texas (and other border states). Yeah a lot of people were just angry at "illegals" and were able to argue intelligently staying focused on the real issue at hand...but a lot were just angry at Mexicans in general and that feeling is generations old. My wife's great grandfather was an educator, son of a German immigrant in Fredricksburg and was shot at because he dared to think that Mexicans deserved an education, just like white folks.

That said... if the Azzies came hard and fast, they'd have local support and secure interior lines without even trying hard as they roll through. An invading army, speaking Spanish, waving the tricolor of Mexico with the Aztec emblem on it.. supported by magic... and winning (even if only at first). Oh yeah, no problem. I can see them getting tons of local support and cholos signing up on the spot to fight.

But, it's 2070 and a 4th Edition. Aztechnology is bad news, the bloody spirits and gods of Tenochitlán are bad news.. after 20+ years... no way that initial amore with Aztlan can remain.

Going back to the Tejanos I personally know. Some are new Tejanos, first or second generation here in Texas. They're pretty enamored with chicano culture and are dialed in with what's going on in southern California or wherever/whatnot. They're proud to be Latino and to be part of "La Raza" (the race)... some just happen to be latinos in Texas. To them, Texas is cool, but it's just a place they live. Nothing more.

Then there are the Tejanos that I know that come from OLD families, that come from McAllen and areas in "The Valley" (Rio Grand Valley), that have sisters, wives, and daughters that are for real Debutanés and have first names like Jennifer, Michelle, Kirsten, etc. - who have parents, aunts, uncles, and siblings that graduate from schools like Harvard, Yale, UT Austin (law), SMU (business), and are doctors, lawyers, and business executives....they're the rich, the "fresas" and the hidalgos, the Dons and Doñas of their communities. I also know Tejanos that are farmers and ranchers and charro cowpunchers (and their families have always been so). They're the salt of the earth and listen to Tejano and Conjunto music and speak English very poorly... poor as dirt but Tejano to the bone... and all of those... they're just as proud of Texas as any anglo Texan.

There's just no way I can imagine these people sitting back and letting the bloodthirsty bums in Tenochitlán dictate to them forever... there's just no way. They're Texans first, same as any other, and moreso than many.

So, that's why to me.. the story isn't whether or not Aztlan takes south Texas. I have no problem believing that they do (within the framework established by FASA such as it is)... The story of taking Texas back is the real tale worth telling.

Just my thoughts anyway.

ps - I really enjoy this thread, it's givin' me lots of ideas for my campaign.

see, see!
this is why I demand a book about Austin, or somewhere else here in Texas. I live in southeast Houston so I need to know what's gonna be happening in my own backyard


I also would love to run something here for our group.

Except the United States. Great Britain. Russia.

Don't kid yourself. Paramilitary corporate security has existed for decades. Wackenhut isn't a government agency, but their personnel can still kill you on DoE property.


Healthy criminals.

You should read Aztlan before saying stupid things. Even now Catholicism is on the downturn in Mexico, which used to be one of the largest nations with a comfortably large Roman Catholic population. For what happened in SR, anything is possible.

It's easy to add some bit to your campaign where the CAS, backed up by Ares and any other Megacorp hostile to Aztechnology and with weapons to sell, kicked Aztlan (which was occupied with the Yucatan uprising at the moment) back to the Rio Grande. One of my current players' character is a vet from that campaign in the 2050s, and the group in an earlier campaign helped set the whole war off (their Johnson was working for the CAS).

It doesn't even change canon much. Aztlan and the CAS still have their cold war, instead of Austin there's another bordertown, smuggling and small insurgency actions are still happening in the area, all that changed is that the borders moved a bit.

Martindv... there is a big difference between corporate security firms having MP5's and shotguns, to them having M1 Abrams and F-16! True military firepower is expensive and does nothing for the bottom line... which is what corporations love and worship as their God. For example: the Ford Pinto Memo which calculated it was better to pay for people KILLED in a Pinto than to fix a faulty gas tank (links below):

http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/art...1657866,00.html
http://www.calbaptist.edu/dskubik/pinto.htm



Criminals... right... anyways, due to the "disclaimer" given in the front of every SR2 book about Sourcebooks being an electronic book published on Shadowland, and that they may have "errors" in them, I will believe any culture based on a bloody, barbaric culture like the Aztecs to be totally corrupt and in the need of a good nuking.

As for Mexicans turning away from Catholicism... link please. Until I have a good idea of where you get your information about something in real life, I'll be a little skeptical.

w/regard to Private Military Corporations . . .

they make bank. 1/3 to 1/2 of the armed personnel fighting for the corporate interests of America in Iraq are employed by PMC's. Do a tour of duty in standard military making dirt pay, then hire on with Blackwater, Wackenhut or any of a dozen other multinats that specialize in conflict zone commerce/support/control and make four to ten times what you make in a governmental military. There are parts of PMC's that specialize in almost everything the US military does and more--from mortars to combat jets to helicopters to drones (i mean UAV's ;-P) to howitzers. Many of the PMC's are true multinationals--sometimes by necessity--and they are employed by governments, narcotraffico cartels, the UN, and even other corps who don't have whoopass militaries. Look at the resource extraction corporations in Africa. They heavily utilize PMC's to maintain security on pipelines (and sometimes to keep favorable governments in power or topple them when they get "uppity.")

The reservation of the use of armed force by nation-states is a relatively recent trend that has declined in the last thirty years. The UN went from hating on "mercenaries" to needing Private Military Corporations to protect their aid operations in Africa and Eastern Europe. The UN just doesn't have enough Blue Helmets to cover it and PMC's offer training, skills and hardware that are hot commodities.

"Private military companies supply bodyguards for the Afghan president and pilot armed reconnaissance planes and helicopter gunships to destroy coca crops in Colombia. They operate the intelligence and communications systems at the United States Northern Command in Colorado, which is responsible for coordinating a response to any attack on the United States.[citation needed] And licensed by the State Department, they are contracting with foreign governments, training soldiers and reorganizing militaries in Nigeria, Bulgaria, Taiwan, and Equatorial Guinea. The PMC industry is now worth over $100 billion a year." (Taken from the wikipedia article on Private Military Corporations)

Much of the "anti-coca" operations in Colombia are facilitated by PMC's paid for with American money. This includes raids, assassinations and surveillance operations. Many "pro-coca" operations (ie. cartels) also utilize the services of PMC's, for training and counter-intelligence. IIRC, Aztechnology grew, at least in part, from some of those cartels. Given the land-grabbing involved in the rise of Aztechnology, it seems that they would have quite the sizable corp military, specializing in quick land grabs and holding onto turf, as they've nationalized corp holdings all over Aztlan (provoking the one Omega Order the Corp Court approved,) fought frequent battles with Amazonia, seized the southern third of Texas, part of Denver (which they later lost), the southern chunk of California and a massive amount of Central America. Sooooo, the assertion that Aztlan/Aztechnology (or any other corp) wouldn't maintain a military is, frankly, not even true today, much less so in a world in which AAA corps have extra-territoriality. It's much cheaper to send your own military in to kick ass and pillage (particularly with most training costs still resting on nation-states) than it is to set up a media campaign to demonize another nation-state and then bribe (i mean "contribute to") politicians to engage in the process of declaring national war.

And then you'll go on being skeptical until Synner tells you the same thing.

OK Critias... that's was just plain dumb. Synner is an authority about the game Shadowrun. In the previous threads I asked for Synner's opinion because he writes the damn game.

I was asking for a link about something in real life... big difference! Please grow up.

Texas broke away from the new remains of the US because it had united with Canada's remains and Texas felt the new nation not bible-belt-y enough, it summatrily was without any notable army, got it's ass kicked because a bunch of civilians with guns make no army, and what remained of it crawled back and promised to be a good state again if the Confeds protected it from Mexico.

As for company armies and mercenary companies - they have been around since the late middle ages. The East India Company had it's own standing army and battleship fleet (and fought it's own wars)! Actually, their absence in the modern era is the oddity, not their return.

That was when it was "cheap" to have a military. In today's battlefield, private corporations are going to be out spent by the big boys... and no matter how much a company military wants one, the governments of the world will NOT give them nuclear weapons and let's face it... without nuclear weapons you don't rate. It's the "I don't want to play anymore!" button.

The corps own their own fission reactors, so building nukes, combat satellites and other stuff is a small problem. In the 6. world, there aren't any national superpowers left anymore, the new nations of 2065+++ are only major powers comparable to the major powers of ancient europe during the colonization era. No strong U.S.A., China, Russia, or anything similar. Only CAS, UCAS, NAN, New Japanese Empire, Aztlan, and other small weirdo-nations fighting and other stuff.

Certainly not. Militaries always were expensive. Sure, technologically they were way behind what's possible today. But a decent ship of the line cost premium back then too. And under 100 ships, you had no fleet. This was before industrial manufacturing that caused the price of everything to drop enormously. Also, you had guild monopolies and whatnot to deal with.


Uhm, no. They are being PAID by the Big Boys (half the fighters and security personnel in Iraq, for instance, are mercenaries) - and smaller boys who need decent, competent troops in stead of their own ragtag armies.


Quasi-State companies (or rather, Corporate States) like GazProm/Russia HAVE nuclear weapons. Actually, Russia/GazProm is a decent idea of what Aztech must look like. Only that the company is much more present in daily life and produces a lot broader range of goods.

There's also a few less blood sacrifices right after big sporting events.

Granted (though russian hools are nasty customers).

didnt a carrier task force get "sunk" while doing some kind of test against a enemy using at best coastal fishing vessels and cessna's?

Some exercise in the persian gulf, 2002 iirc. But that was a lot of low-cost ships and planes, and using quite the amount of missiles, rockets and explosives after skirting the "past this point we shoot" bubble for a long time to make the enmey nervous, then striking first, and against targets that are rather vulnerable.

Stopping a field army is much more difficult.

Good point but this stuff was originally done in the 1980's, long before Gitmo. The writer recreated the oppression of the Japanese Americans in 1942.

It might be that just in southern/border states the hispanics were treated as NAN, but not in areas like the Bronx. also the VITAS might have had a major hit on poorer populations dropping their percentage of the general population. .

true, but the point still remains that low cost equipment can still hurt, and hurt bad.

hell, given how prices drops these days on tech all the time, building a short range cruise missile at home is starting to become workable...

ok, so it would more correctly be a kamikaze drone then a proper cruise missile but still...

hmm, about hitting where its most vulnerable. i recall reading that the finnish army targeted the soup kitchens of the russian army...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_hist...r_II#Winter_War

nothing about that there but its to illustrate what war im thinking of...

My grandfather fought in the winter war, but I never got to ask him much about it before he died.
That aside - would the Texans really have home made cruise missiles in their backyards?

because they can?

im getting the impression that if its legal to own a weapon, some texan will probably own one or more of it...
(and even if its illegal it may be someone that does)

The skill web was in SR1 too. I never got SR2.

But I Like the skill web. It's a cool idea executed well.

If you have never seen the aftermath combat skill flowcart or read the combat rules just believe they make the most unclear and complex rules in SR seem like brevity and excellence personified. So I was not so impressed with that.

Um, it's Mexico. It wouldn't help without changing the essentials of the government and how the people see the government. For example: They have something like 10% of the world reserves of oil and are going to be importing oil in a few years because of the corruption of PEMEX, the PRI and the oil unions has resulted in their infrastructure falling apart and their technology is ancient. This is typical of the nationalized oil companies in all the 3rd world, but particularly true in Mexico because PEMEX is the "national patrimony" and as such they won't allow those companies that understand how to apply modern technology to find and extract more difficult oilfields into Mexico.

If you think things are bad now, just wait a few years.

Ever seen the TOE of the Mexican army? It has NO tanks. It has something like 200 obsolete (like WW2) armored vehicles. The Texas National Guard has 5 times more AFVs and they were all made after 1980. The Mexican army has no ability to do anything above, possible, brigade scale. It hasn't fought a serious battle since 1848. The last time there was a serious rebellion the Army fell apart and 10% of Mexico died in the mad dog war that resulted.

Ever seen west Texas? You drive out of El Paso and you pass THREE towns across the desert in the next ~400 miles before you reach San Antonio. Consider trying to support large military units over that when you have a military that doesn't have any serious logistics capability.

It's just one of those insane things like the mysterious absence of the 300,000 Navajo from SR1 and the elevation of the 10,000 Utes to some sort of huge tribe.

But...but...MAGIC!

Is it possible the Mexicans charged over the border and most Texas civilians moved ahead of them? They were not conquored behind the lines but running ahead of the Mexican army. Then when peace settled, they find they cannot go home.

... edited 'cuz it didn't really add anything that wasn't in that hidden fourth page.

cue true texan to claim that no true texan would ever do that in 3... 2... 1...

All it takes is one Putin. Russia under Yeltzin was much like MExico. Modern Russia is improving in those points.


Aztlan is NOT Mexico. Aztlan is more like today's Russia.
You can buy tanks. You can even buy tanks - decent tanks - at affordable rates. Buy used western eqipment! Germany, for instance, has thousands of IFVs und MBTs for sale, at reasonable rates, considering what you'd get. Or they could be really cheap and buy a bunch of chinese or russian-made vehicles - those might not have all the fancy of american tanks, but they'd be usable all right. Same with an air force.

Also, Aztlan didn't attack Texas out of nowhere, they first subdued all those funny little central American states, and thus propably had some combat practice already. Maybe they also enlisted syndicate troops from Columbia - Aztlan developed out of drug cartels, supposedly something along the lines of Columbuan Paras rather than FARC, but then again, Aztlan IS a rather socialist state - maybe those even formed ACS's backbone. And those people surely don't lack in combat practice.

Again, Aztlan isn't today's Mexico, it's a much sharper, more agressive and better organised state.


A bunch of ragtag, uneducated farmer boys can build simple, unguided short-range artillery missiles (ask the Israelis, they tend to end up on the receiving end of those). So yeah, Texans surely could do that.


Usually, that's the sensible thing to do for civilians if you're invaded by a nasty army (like Aztlan's surely is, considering at that time it must still ahve contained many, many FARC and Para veterans).


No? Seeing what one terror attack could make Americans accept and support, I cannot agree with you when we're talking about IRA-style terror campaigns at home.


Well, for years, there was no outcry about Gitmo with the american public, shameful as that may be. And again, we're talking about a continued terrorist campaign.

Also, death camps tend not to be advertised, and the US surely isn't short of remote areas. The Nazis didn't tell the public what they did in their camps either. So long as there's a continued terror campaign giving the government enough to scare people with and justify drastic action, there'd be little outcry, if any. Not only in the US, in any country. Civilisation is but a thin layer.