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Glayvin34
I'm new to SR with the fourth edition, were there any rules for being affected by the SURGE associated with Halley's Comet from the third edition? Were there any other metatypes available?
A "SURGEr" Quality would make sense if you're not already a metatype other than human. You would get a diminished metatype-like set of effects, like +1 to an atrribute or two but you run at half speed because your hooves are cumbersome, or you take a -1 on most social interactions because of your third eye, something like that.
Has this ground been covered already?
mdynna
I was surprised that SR4 didn't have any of the "Changling" (that's what they call those affected by SURGE) traits. What you'll probably have to do is pick up Year of the Comet. That lists all of the SURGE traits. From there they should translate almost directly into Positive and Negative Qualities in SR4.
Kanada Ten
Take the BP cost of buying equvilant cyberware/bioware to gain the effect and then a little more BP for cosmetic surgery, then call it SURGE. Then maybe charge a BP or 2 to round it off. The advantage of not losing the essence is traded for being a freak.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (mdynna)
What you'll probably have to do is pick up Year of the Comet. That lists all of the SURGE traits. From there they should translate almost directly into Positive and Negative Qualities in SR4.

Ah-so. I just downloaded Year of the Comet but I had only gotten a few chapters into it when I posted. There's that whole chapter at the end dealing with Changling traits. Neat-o. Maybe we'll see some 4th ed info on this next year.
The rules are cool, 5 BP to be a "changling", then they have corresponding Negative and Positive SURGE effects. You're supposed to roll 1d6+modifiers to determine how much of each you get. Looks like my GM is about to get the crap bugged out of him.
Shrike30
I'll be honest... I Highlander 2'ed SURGE after I'd read through it (that is, I pretended it didn't happen). I get the impression from talking around here that there's a significant percentage of GMs that basically went "Heh, uh.. right. No."
Kanada Ten
But oh how it is lovely for critters. Immunity to Normal Weapons on a Barghest...
hobgoblin
from what i recall, most people freaked at the cat girl stuff in the fluff. to much anime for their tastes...
stevebugge
The mechanics made it reasonably unlikely to happen, we checked in our group and only one character was hit. Because the effects were not listed in SR4 we just decided that they faded over time because they required the added mana level associated with the Comet, of course that leaves the door open for them to come back if an upcoming book includes them again.
Shrike30
I really don't have a problem with people getting cosmetic surgery, balance tails, or whatever they want to be all anime-ed out in game. The Johnson might think less of them, but if they've got a solid street rep, that's more important.

But when it feels like a game like has basically said "Hey, let's pay fanservice to anime and X-Men fans by having characters randomly mutate into those genres," it doesn't sit well with me.
mdynna
What was so wrong about SURGE? It was totally up to the GM whether it actually happened to PC's or not. Sure there were rules for the "SURGE test" but it didn't have to happen.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Shrike30)
But when it feels like a game like has basically said "Hey, let's pay fanservice to anime and X-Men fans by having characters randomly mutate into those genres," it doesn't sit well with me.

You mean like paying homage to fantasy by having people randomly Goblinize into Orks and Trolls?
Dissonance
Man, fuck you, hyzmarca. I wanted to say that.
Teulisch
its easiest to treat SURGE as a second wave of goblinization, which included the change of existing metas into sub-types. so an elf could goblinize into an elf sub-type, and so on. I expect teh sub-types will show up in one of the books soon, but until then its just a funny-lookin meta with extra racism problems.

TBRMInsanity
I think a source book with SURGE is still to come. They main thing to point out about SURGE is it only effected a small portion of the population and it is not an ongoing metamorphosis. Those that were unlucky to SURGE did and any that did not is safe. I do expect simmilar events to occur in the future though.
The ubbergeek
SURGE was not so bad.

It was chaotic magic at it's finest.... Something wildly unpredictable, who could screw you bad.

And the catgirl interview... From what I know, is nothing cute, no furry or anime fanboyism... I mean what, the girl got used as a toygirl for derenged man as a sick fetish... And the interviewer don't fall into an Interview with a vampire-like fascination... If I remember well wheat I know, he get disturbed/disgusted at the GIRL, and all. In his mind, SHE is the freak.

SURGE, used properly, can add a 'we're fucked' element to the game. Another thing the terrians have no control on it, and a social harrowing stigmata. Imagine, by example, one that gre horns, tail, etc... In one of those muslim countries.

Beside, it's canon, like it or not. It happened. All too easy to fan-recon something that you don't like; but how about trying to use it, to make it work even more?
juggertroll
the SURGE idea is very good, adding even more flavor in the shadow run world, but the anime angle of SURGE is very opitional i think.

QUOTE

You mean like paying homage to fantasy by having people randomly Goblinize into Orks and Trolls?



Nice way to see this subject, i like it
Dashifen
SURGE is still around in SR4, just not in the rulebooks. A character in On the Run is described as having SURGED bone spurs (probably chronic osteocuspus) and astral perception.
Muskie
Actually, I'm a furry, myself. I love SR, no doubts there, but I always had to go "Night One with Cyber and Cosmeticware" to get anywhere with my Feline Hacker Gumshoe. Thanks to SURGE, He's no longer such an oddity (not to mention such a pain to Chargen..).
TBRMInsanity
Wow where do these people come from. I like my anime on the tv screen not in my SR game.
mdynna
Here here, TB. smile.gif

PS You sure we can't play tomorrow?
The ubbergeek
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ Apr 27 2006, 11:10 AM)
Wow where do these people come from.  I like my anime on the tv screen not in my SR game.

I fail to see WHERE anime is in Shadowrun, except perhaps as a stereotypical term for bad cartoony things from a guy who know jack. And that was NOT the premise fo SURGE, except a natural magic event, rather chaotic. Also, NOTHING cute in it. Naught.

And if good inspiration for a shadowrun game/campaign can be found in an anime out of all place, well...
TBRMInsanity
sorry mdynna got to see my grandfather.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (The ubbergeek)
I fail to see WHERE anime is in Shadowrun, except perhaps as a stereotypical term for bad cartoony things from a guy who know jack. And that was NOT the premise fo SURGE, except a natural magic event, rather chaotic. Also, NOTHING cute in it. Naught.

And if good inspiration for a shadowrun game/campaign can be found in an anime out of all place, well...

Too right, UG. Just because SR is using aspects of fantasy/sci-fi that have been used before doesn't mean they're paying homage to anything. Marvel Universe mutations are fairly ridiculous, they say the same gene that gives you the healing factor could give you superintellect, the ability to turn into metal, or what ever other random-ass thing. At least they gave an obscure if logical Genetic reason for SURGE, it's not inconceivable for hidden genes to express under certain circumstances giving moderate physiological changes. Simpler organisms do it all the time, and without mana.
And while Tolkien was arguably the originator of Orks, the other metatypes like trolls, goblins, elves and dwarves were in literature WAY before ol' J.R.R., and it would be a stretch to say that he is paying homage to previous works.

What's wrong with SURGE? Nothin'!
Shrike30
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
You mean like paying homage to fantasy by having people randomly Goblinize into Orks and Trolls?

Sorry, I must have missed out on the part where they added Orks and Trolls and, oh, magic and other fantasy elements into the game in the middle of the Third Edition.

I looked at SURGE, thought about it for a while, decided I wasn't interested in having it in the game, and ignored it. Considering the number of other meta-plot items that people freely discard left and right in their individual games, I don't see what the problem is with doing it with SURGE.
hobgoblin
its not that they discard it thats the problem, its that they come onto this forum and keep talking about themselfs doing so and why its so "bad" (mostly its boils down to some kind of anime-fobia) whenever the topic comes up...
Shrike30
Sorry. Tell you what, next time I don't like something in a game, I won't talk about why. I think this is a policy everyone should follow, really... we'd get an awful lot done around here if people only talked about what they liked in Shadowrun. Negative feedback is overrated, really.
Geekkake
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Apr 27 2006, 03:30 PM)
Sorry.  Tell you what, next time I don't like something in a game, I won't talk about why.  I think this is a policy everyone should follow, really... we'd get an awful lot done around here if people only talked about what they liked in Shadowrun.  Negative feedback is overrated, really.

I'd regard the issue as more along the lines of flat condemnations == bad and counterproductive. Not liking something is fine. For instance, I don't really like most anime, and I fucking hate that furry shit, but I fail to see how it's relevant when discussing Shadowrun.

If someone has an anime-style idea and posts a thread about it, check it, and ignore the goddamned thread if you don't like anime in your Shadowrun. Let the people interested in the subject develop the idea further through discussion. Go start a thread about an idea you do like. If you don't have an idea, and you can't find a way to address what you perceive as flaws or undesirable elements in someone else's idea other than saying, "it's bad and I'll never use it", the best solution, as always, is to shut the Hell up and let the grown-ups talk.
Shrike30
So, I assume you completely missed the part where I said
QUOTE
I really don't have a problem with people getting cosmetic surgery, balance tails, or whatever they want to be all anime-ed out in game.

and the part where I explained that my reason for pulling it out of the game was that it was
QUOTE
having characters randomly mutate into those genres

when you decided that I've apparently got a problem with anime elements in Shadowrun, and it was time to go all Avenging Otaku on my ass?

Informing one of my players that, based on a random die roll, his character was now a catgirl/bone-ridged-mutant/freaky-SURGE-effect-of-not-your-choice was canned because it sounded like about as much fun as informing him that, based on a random die roll, he had just been hit by a car during downtime and needed massive surgery, so he was now part cyborg. The kind of thing that fucks with character concept a little bit, you know?
hobgoblin
the anime comment was not aimed squarely at your shrike30, but generaly thats the argument thats used when the surge effect is dismissed.
Shrike30
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
the anime comment was not aimed squarely at your shrike30, but generaly thats the argument thats used when the surge effect is dismissed.

It was actually your objection to talking about removing elements of the game that kicked me over into sarcasm mode nyahnyah.gif
hobgoblin
and what comment would that be? ah, my reply to you?

QUOTE
its not that they discard it thats the problem, its that they come onto this forum and keep talking about themselfs doing so and why its so "bad" (mostly its boils down to some kind of anime-fobia) whenever the topic comes up...


that one?

its a reply to this bit from you:

QUOTE
Considering the number of other meta-plot items that people freely discard left and right in their individual games, I don't see what the problem is with doing it with SURGE.


and there you use generic terms (people, their) so therefor i do the same (them). your reason for doing it is infact a fresh breath in the saturation of nati-anime comments that used to follow any refrence to SURGE.

still; yes we are aware that people dont like SURGE for various reasons. but when people start to talk about it, its because they want to use it. so coming into the thread talking about a person wish for it to "never show up on radar ever again", is not productive to the thread in any way what so ever.

we have heard it, and frankly we dont care. its kinda like the debate about how much SR4 "stinks". sorry but given that we sit here and post about ways to use it, we dont think so. and no repetition of the message will change that...
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Shrike30)
Informing one of my players that, based on a random die roll, his character was now a catgirl/bone-ridged-mutant/freaky-SURGE-effect-of-not-your-choice was canned because it sounded like about as much fun as informing him that, based on a random die roll, he had just been hit by a car during downtime and needed massive surgery, so he was now part cyborg. The kind of thing that fucks with character concept a little bit, you know?

If you have a problem with random dice rolls then you don't have to use them. You could still lets PCs be Surged by using SURGE traits as Edges/Flaws and having them pay karma/BP.
mdynna
True enough. If you don't like the random-ness, then present it to the characters as say, "Does anyone want this to happen?" If you don't like/want it to happen to PCs then don't, but I don't see a big deal with it happening "in general" in the world.

Keep in mind that the rules say that the SURGE traits must be (mostly) in balance. So, you get free Positive Qualities as well as some Negative ones. I suppose it depends on how much "G" exists in your "RPGs." I know some people are heavy on the "Game" and other are heavy on the "Role Playing." So, whatever. (shrug)
Shrike30
It was the randomness that really bugged me in terms of "having it happen in game..." I don't like having things that are a theoretically world-spanning random event but the players happen to be immune to.

After the fact, though (in, say, 2070 nyahnyah.gif ), having had SURGE happen seems a little more feasible. After all, it's not like people get to choose at birth that they happen to be albino gnome spellcasters, but the characters we see are people who exist in the SR world, and that happen to be player-controlled. Figuring out some sort of BP cost for various SURGE abilities in SR4 would be a decent way of adding some variety.
mdynna
The "value" listed beside each of the SURGE affects in Year of the Comet should be easy to transfer to a BP cost for SR4.

I understand where you're coming from. A lot of players do not like anything (of significance) to happen to their characters without prior knowledge and their consent. This leads to some really "gamey" decisions by the player ("I'm not going to get that cyberware now because I'm going to buy a SURGE affect that does it for me...") that are not particularily reaslistic. "Real" is sometimes having life-changing events thrust upon you without warning (like SURGE). Some players see this as a fun RP challenge, others will just get resentful.

For example, I had an event in one of my player's lives once where I had him "die." He had been going along and had made some rivals that were (unknown to him) quite well connected. But he was your typical cocky Troll ganger. So, one time I had solo session with him where he was ambushed. The Star gunned him down in spectacular fashion (with a Citymaster-mounted LMG) and left him for dead. I had an NPC he had previously befriended take him in and pay for his treatment. The fallout was he lost an arm and a leg (literally), but I gave him Alphaware cyberlimbs for free. As a story side-effect, all his enemies assumed him "dead." I told him to pick a new street name (which he did), and then he began plotting his revenge. It turned into a great side plot that "hooked" him further into the game/universe. However, some players would resent this "death" being thrust upon them. It's up to the GM to judge.
Dranem
I converted SURGE for 4th Edition much the same way as I SR converted Edges and Flaws into Qualities. As the events of the comet happened in the past, my characters have the choice of whether they're character underwent transformation or not, after creation there are no other chances for it to happen. SURGE is a 5 bp subrace cost plus the cost of positive/negative SURGE qualities to a max of 35 bp each.

Before the player goes all anime-craze on me, I have them read the mechanics, implications, and social implications of what SURGE will have done, and will do to their character in game play. If they expect they'll be treated like a cute cuddly furry, I have them re-read the social implications. I haven't changed the SR world to be anime friendly, if anything, it's just gotten a heck of a lot harder on the character, cause they will stick out in a crowd. It's like giving yourself the distinctive style flaw - and can have some interesting role-play side effects.

I had one player, mind you, who tried to take it too far... wanted to be a humanoid cat, complete with rear-bending knees and ears on the top of his head. I reminded him that while changed, he's still metahuman, and his form isn't that much different than anyone elses.. and besides, there's no allowances in the SURGE rules for such drastic changes to exist. I suggested he may want to be a shapeshifter rather than a changeling and in the end went for that variant instead after reading the rules. (In the end he never did make it to game due to scheduling conflicts, but oh well, his loss)

In the end it all boils down to character preference, whether the GM will allow it, and whether the player can realistically stay in character along the SR theme. In a world where toxic insect shamans exist, I don't see any problems with someone suddenly growing a tail, fur over their bodies, becoming a cyclops or having gills. Half of which you can get with cosmetic or cyberware modification by 2070 anyway.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Dranem)
I had one player, mind you, who tried to take it too far... wanted to be a humanoid cat, complete with rear-bending knees and ears on the top of his head. I reminded him that while changed, he's still metahuman, and his form isn't that much different than anyone elses.. and besides, there's no allowances in the SURGE rules for such drastic changes to exist.

SURGE allowed Satyr legs.
Tattered~Seraphim
I won't repeat at length again what others have already said before me, but I consider that SURGE is one of those aspects in the game that can be used or discarded as one pleases, depending on what style of game one is after. When used right, it can add an interesting spin to a game. SURGE arose due to *chaotic* magic, and there isn't really anything anime-ish about it unless a player or GM wants it, and even then it's the GM's decision on whether to allow it to get that way if they want to include it. It also depends on what year the game is being set in.
One of my SR characters was initially inspired by a VG character to an extent, and after chatting with the GM we decided to go with SURGE as the way to give the character the unusual twist that I was after. Then I realised that my character bore a few physical similarities to a different, anime character at times. Despite the source of the inspiration, I don't want to play the character in an anime style; if I wanted to do that, I'd go play BESM. SR is a *fantasy* game as much as it's a cyberpunk game, and that means accepting that there are going to be strange magical creatures wandering around. Magic needs an amount of chaos to its order to balance out.
Thanee
There might be people out there who use cosmetic surgery to look like their anime heroes/heroines (or like cute furry things). eek.gif

Bye
Thanee
The ubbergeek
I can see some sick and rich pimps hunting for... Interesting-looking SURGED women and men to cather some perverted and depravated rich ones. (or using magic and tecnology to 'modify' a 'normal' guy/girl... Against their wishes, probably).

"Mister Keitaro? I think that we found one that may interest you..."

See how SURGE could end up something fitting, dark and ugly-faced?

And of course, since it,s random, some poor sod may end up looking or being something that is an horror to some groups, like a devilish-like one in a fiundamentalist region as the example I used.
Metatron
QUOTE (Shrike30)
Informing one of my players that, based on a random die roll, his character was now a catgirl/bone-ridged-mutant/freaky-SURGE-effect-of-not-your-choice was canned because it sounded like about as much fun as informing him that, based on a random die roll, he had just been hit by a car during downtime and needed massive surgery, so he was now part cyborg. The kind of thing that fucks with character concept a little bit, you know?

My character that has SURGEd was done by the ref via a secret dice roll. He rolled for each of the players in turn, and it was my characters unlucky day...(He was sub one essence)

The role-play aspect was wonderful. He knew enough about paranormal animals to know that only a few critters were 'blind' and could see astral, so he thought he was turning into a ghoul - when the pain from his skin flaking off was light so he was conscious. He also ended up sitting in the bath full of water to try and allieviate the itchy flaky skin too. And all this started with a guy with a cold brushing past him in the street, and my character thought it might be a cold coming on...

When he woke up from having finished the transformation, it turned out that he was dual natured, with altered skin colour (blue)(I was soo cheesed off at the ref, as I had only just finished drawing him...), retractable claws and a couple of other bits that I can't remember without the sheet in frount of me.

He has been given some stick about it from various corners, but he just shrugs it off.

I think SURGE is a nice effect, and it would have been nice to see some sort of rules for it in the main book, as it had already happened, but I can see why they didn't put it in, as then people would have wanted all the other meta-types put in as well, and that leads to an enormous book that costs a fortune...

The way my ref has dealt with it, as he has converted the character over from SR3 to SR4 is that as it was sheer dumb luck and not character choice is he just gave the character the 'freebie' that is being a changeling, and all that comes with it...
mfb
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
You mean like paying homage to fantasy by having people randomly Goblinize into Orks and Trolls?

that would be a valid point if Shadowrun were an anime game. it's not--or at least, it wasn't, until SURGE.

moreover, the whole SURGE thing was supposed to jack up metahuman tensions and bigotry. the books say it did that, but other than saying "oh noes teh rasism!!1!11!!", nothing ever really came out of it. so, instead of making the setting grittier and dirtier, it gave us catgirls. yay.
Voran
Heh, yeah I guess when you literally could become a gun-bunny, it got a little off smile.gif
mfb
i saw one guy create Big Bird.
Kanada Ten
You're telling me that Big Bird resorting to running the shadows in order to make a decent wage isn't gritty?
fool
One of my players, a troll, wound up through random rolling with pink skin and purple fur and red eyes.... boy did he stand out. He got in return a few abilities the only one I remember off hand was the scent ability. I don't really see what the problem with surge is and would like new rules for it. He was the only on of all the characters who wound up surging.
As far as anime, I haven't watched much of it (just the mainstream stuff.. akira, princess monanoke, etc.) and I son't really see how the surge makes sr into an anime game.
I definitely thought of the cat girl as having an erect feline body (ears at top of head etc.
mdynna
The other option would be to just remove the particular SURGE effects that you don't like. It was also my understanding from reading YotC that drastic effects like the "complete cat" transformation were rare among the "changlings."
mfb
*shrug* watch more anime. or don't. either way, a lot of people view SURGE as an incursion of catgirls with pastel hair and cute little tails. if you don't, sweet--have fun with it. but SURGE irks the hell out of me. i mean, come on. a marsupial pouch!?
Dissonance
It's the perfect place to put your Puzzler. Or possibly a club sandwich.
mfb
mar. supial. pouch.
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