Full Version: SURGErs
sounds... sticky.
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| sounds... sticky. |
And prone to infections. Maybe I will allow it.
"You know that sandwitch you stashed in your pouch in case the run ran late? Yeah, uh... roll Willpower to see if you still want to eat it."
just make sure to wrap it in plastic first...
I don't know if I should be amused or offended if you think I'd eat something from what's basically a giant, easily accessable orifice on my body without wrapping it in plastic, first.
Besides, there's a similar thing in bioware in SR4 that I've considered. It sounds like a great place to put illegal things.
Besides, there's a similar thing in bioware in SR4 that I've considered. It sounds like a great place to put illegal things.
If you're talking about the skin pouch, I think the difference is that the skin pouch isn't a mucous membrane.
yeah. it's the difference between carrying something under your arm and carrying something in the gigantic nose that is on your belly.
so it will be a big soggy, big deal 
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| its not that they discard it thats the problem, its that they come onto this forum and keep talking about themselfs doing so and why its so "bad" (mostly its boils down to some kind of anime-fobia) whenever the topic comes up... |
I totally agree. That entire YotC bulldrek was just too much for me. Catgirls? Furries? Dragons taking over cities? Zombie invasion? Seaquest? Space race?
It's like someone let the writers of "The Legend of Zu" write a Shadowrun sourcebook. The writers jerked off with that book just a little too much for my tastes, taking the shadowrun world from kitschy cyberfantasy to "BEAR IS DRIVING HOW CAN THAT BE?!?" anime-wannabe roleplaying.
Then again, in my world, Chicago is still Bug City, hands down the most s=awesome sourcebook evarrrr.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| i saw one guy create Big Bird. |
You have completely changed my mind in favor of Surge, using only seven words.
| QUOTE (phasmaphobic) |
| That entire YotC bulldrek was just too much for me. Catgirls? Furries? Dragons taking over cities? Zombie invasion? Seaquest? Space race? |
What, did you miss the rest of the history? Ya know, dragons taking over cities, shapeshifter furries, insect spirit invasion, arcologies, and toxic races?
Seriously, how is the probe race not totally logical? It kinda happened when Mars was closest. Earth sent like 4 probes to the fucking rock. I mean, I get the arguments against the rest, really I do. But the probe race? Come on!
i have to disagree, on the shapeshifter-furry thing. they have animal forms, and they have human forms with occasional features that are vaguely reminiscent of their animal forms. they're not furries.
i don't even have a problem with cyberhorns, cybertails, and the like. technofetishistic imitation of trends is cool. magical transformations into catgirls is where i draw the line.
i don't even have a problem with cyberhorns, cybertails, and the like. technofetishistic imitation of trends is cool. magical transformations into catgirls is where i draw the line.
Meh, with SR4 cosmetic rules, the transformation isn't all that magical.
no, i mean literally magical. caused by mana thingies. replacing your hair with optical fibers that give you glowy purple manga hair is okay. getting hit with a mana spike that gives you violet hair is right out.
Well, ok then, what about using blood magic to alter one's form? Or corrupt adepts? Dragons used blood magic to create drakes, neh? Couldn't one create a catgirl from blood magic and genetech? It seriously didn't bother me, but I came up with other SURGE effects, too. I think YotC should have focused more on the... mistakes, but who really wants their characters inflicted with melt-face or one-ear?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| i have to disagree, on the shapeshifter-furry thing. they have animal forms, and they have human forms with occasional features that are vaguely reminiscent of their animal forms. they're not furries. i don't even have a problem with cyberhorns, cybertails, and the like. technofetishistic imitation of trends is cool. magical transformations into catgirls is where i draw the line. |
SR Shadowrun Game, FASA authorised
Kitsune
Nuff said
I see shapeshifters as being more like old school werewolves. In that they're animals first, that just happen to be a little smarter than the average bear. They're not really suitable for PCs, in that you might as well try to play an insect spirit of a hellhound.
Completely alien thought process, compared to humans. As for freaking yourself out through cyber? I had a shaman do that in order to get closer to his totem. He used Physical Mask near-religiously when on the job.
Then again, I'm hardly a bastion of sanity. I tried to figure out how to make Ruth Skin a viable runner concept. I couldn't explain it beyond Gangers Somehow Highjack Milspec Cyber Shipment, and one of the things in the truck was that. Nobody else wanted it, so she took it.
Getting naked anywhere outside of the sprawl is, amusingly, suicide.
Completely alien thought process, compared to humans. As for freaking yourself out through cyber? I had a shaman do that in order to get closer to his totem. He used Physical Mask near-religiously when on the job.
Then again, I'm hardly a bastion of sanity. I tried to figure out how to make Ruth Skin a viable runner concept. I couldn't explain it beyond Gangers Somehow Highjack Milspec Cyber Shipment, and one of the things in the truck was that. Nobody else wanted it, so she took it.
Getting naked anywhere outside of the sprawl is, amusingly, suicide.
SURGE = Cat girls anime phobia paranoia extreme!!!!!
Go to the center of the question: use SURGE or not, thats the final point. If you like anime style, go for it. If you like x-men, go for it. If you like random magic mutations and the social racist problems, go for it. And If you dont like SURGE, terminate from your SR game.
I like the SURGE using the ramdom magic approach, but i like a little anime too. That how i will use SURGE im my games.
Go to the center of the question: use SURGE or not, thats the final point. If you like anime style, go for it. If you like x-men, go for it. If you like random magic mutations and the social racist problems, go for it. And If you dont like SURGE, terminate from your SR game.
I like the SURGE using the ramdom magic approach, but i like a little anime too. That how i will use SURGE im my games.
A bit hypocritical; tech-based comsetic changes are ok, but not magical ones if random, in a way it use noneless the game's 'You are NOT in control, not even of yourself' side. Meh. *rolling eyes*
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Well, ok then, what about using blood magic to alter one's form? Or corrupt adepts? Dragons used blood magic to create drakes, neh? Couldn't one create a catgirl from blood magic and genetech? It seriously didn't bother me, but I came up with other SURGE effects, too. I think YotC should have focused more on the... mistakes, but who really wants their characters inflicted with melt-face or one-ear? |
That'd be me. But I'm weird like that. I like gimping my characters.
It probably comes from constantly watching PCs cripple and murder my NPCs.
It is easy to take SURGE in an anime catgirl direction but it is just as easy to take it in a downtroden Martian mutants from Total Recall direction. Like everything about Shadowrun it can be both seriously depressing and lightheartedly absurd, often simultaneously.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Well, ok then, what about using blood magic to alter one's form? Or corrupt adepts? Dragons used blood magic to create drakes, neh? Couldn't one create a catgirl from blood magic and genetech? |
you'll have to point me to where blood magic allows you to alter your form. corrupt adepts turn into monsters, generally speaking, not BESM rejects. drakes aren't furries. as for genetech, like i said, technofetishism is cool.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| Kitsune |
you could call that furry, or you could call that homage to the actual myths about kitsune.
i fail to see how my stance is "hypocritical". i don't like magical anime-esque transformations in my SR. that's a pretty clear stance; i'm not going back on it by disincluding technofetishism from it, because technofetishism is not, by definition, included. as for being "not in control, even of yourself", maybe you missed the section in YotC where it says you can choose SURGE traits as edges and flaws. with a new character, you have direct control of what SURGE effects you take.
i probably wouldn't dislike SURGE so much if it hadn't been presented the way they presented it. if they'd have kept the whole anime thing in the background, let players come up with their own ideas about how SURGE affects people? that would have made things much better. but instead, they splash a freakin' catgirl right up there in everyone's face. moreover, rather than actually playing up the negative social side effects of SURGE, they carefully boxed up all the prejudice and hatred towards changelings inside 'straight' society, and basically said that counterculture elements (like, say, shadowrunners!) all think SURGE is the hottest thing since fission. in other words, the only people who are likely to hate your newly-SURGEd character are people who would have already hated him anyway. goodbye gritty social disorder, hello cardboard cutout good guys and bad guys.
Well, sometimes it´s a matter of taste. Me and my players juts LOVE anime, but we never RPG´ed it. Well, there was that supers campaign, but was only one time. And it wasn´t silly, I must assure you.
The main consense among us seems to be that while anime (and catgirls, and whatever anime throws in your way) can be fun indeed, role-playing it is another thing entirely.
The main consense among us seems to be that while anime (and catgirls, and whatever anime throws in your way) can be fun indeed, role-playing it is another thing entirely.
Mfb Furry is a devolved form of the very legends you reference
Although IMHO Anime + Shadowrun should reference Akira, not Nuku Nuku
after all Kenada = gang leader type runner
Tetsuo = twisted mage who getsfucked up by an Aztechnology Bioexperiment designed to make UBER mages
Although IMHO Anime + Shadowrun should reference Akira, not Nuku Nuku
after all Kenada = gang leader type runner
Tetsuo = twisted mage who getsfucked up by an Aztechnology Bioexperiment designed to make UBER mages
| QUOTE (mfb @ May 2 2006, 12:56 PM) | ||
you'll have to point me to where blood magic allows you to alter your form. corrupt adepts turn into monsters, generally speaking, not BESM rejects. drakes aren't furries. as for genetech, like i said, technofetishism is cool. |
Drakes are scallies; ithe difference is academic considering the voluminous collections of dragon porn to be found on Fchan.
In some ways, Shadowrun is decidedly similar to Tank Police. You've got the megaplexes and the sprawl, you've got hardcore police SWAT teams with excessive firepower, you've got genetic engineering, biological implants, and cyberware. The catgirls just round it out.
"If you want less crime then give us more tanks." - anonymous Lonestar officer
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Drakes are scallies... |
whoah, when did we start delving into hentai? sure, there's anime involving people who turn into dragons, but that hardly makes people who turn into dragons (and vice-versa) an anime thing. D&D has dragons who take human form, and so do a lot of other western fantasy stories. anime also features beings with five fingers. that hardly makes hands an icon of anime.
furries are a fairly specific and fairly evolved derivation of those myths, Kremlin KOA. the kitsune is taken from the myth itself.
"I'm a Shapeshifter, silly. What? Never seen a 'fox' before?"
She says, while wearing a LEATHER THONG BIKINI
Tell me the character had no Furry connotations.
She says, while wearing a LEATHER THONG BIKINI
Tell me the character had no Furry connotations.
wait, you're talking about the SNES video game!? sweet christ, that game had nothing to do with SR. FASA authorized it, yes, but you might have noticed that the game breaks canon with the same frequency that most people breathe.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| you might have noticed that the game breaks canon with the same frequency that most people breathe. |
Unless you've got a lot of people in your area dead from asphyxiation you may want to reconsider that remark. Sure, it wasn't always canon (no video games I've seen ever are), but a lot of it was ok.
Really? going back over it...
Misnames Renraku as Aneki Corp
Main Char ends half way to burnout but has so many initiations it doesn't matter
uses a different stat mechanic
mechanically not too similar
Setting:
2050s Check
magic came back: Check
You == Sinless Loser: Check
Stuff gone to Shit before game starts: Check
Spells and fetishes: Check
Shamans have Totems: Check
Shaman Mage difference shown through RP: Check
Cortex Bomb left by evil Johnson: Check
Lesser Dragon has enough clout to get Lesser Megacorp: Check
Ghouls are nasty: Check (back in 1st ed and early 2nd ed the social implications were les looked into)
Renraku tinkering with AIs and need to be bitch slapped: Check
In the end it was a bastardized version of the Secrets of Power books.
Misnames Renraku as Aneki Corp
Main Char ends half way to burnout but has so many initiations it doesn't matter
uses a different stat mechanic
mechanically not too similar
Setting:
2050s Check
magic came back: Check
You == Sinless Loser: Check
Stuff gone to Shit before game starts: Check
Spells and fetishes: Check
Shamans have Totems: Check
Shaman Mage difference shown through RP: Check
Cortex Bomb left by evil Johnson: Check
Lesser Dragon has enough clout to get Lesser Megacorp: Check
Ghouls are nasty: Check (back in 1st ed and early 2nd ed the social implications were les looked into)
Renraku tinkering with AIs and need to be bitch slapped: Check
In the end it was a bastardized version of the Secrets of Power books.
it was okay. it was a fun game. but lord a'mighty, it wasn't canon, and trying to argue a canon point with the SNES game (or the Sega game, for that matter) as your basis is like building your house on empty, open air. it doesn't even have the stability one
normally associates with quicksand.
normally associates with quicksand.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| Main Char ends half way to burnout but has so many initiations it doesn't matter |
That can be done in canon, it just requires a lot of karma.
wow. okay, Kremlin. if you want to view the SNES game as canon, have fun.
Fine ya want Canon
Striper
Used her frigging tiger form with a squeeze once
Then he betrayed her, and she had to kill him
Striper
Used her frigging tiger form with a squeeze once
Then he betrayed her, and she had to kill him
It has 80s flavor. That excuses everything. SURGE can have 80s flavor if inflimented correctly. It can also have wierd internet porn flavor. The same can be said for may shadowrun concepts.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| It can also have wierd internet porn flavor. The same can be said for may shadowrun concepts. |
Like miniguns (don't ask).
bestiality != furry. kinda related, but different species of ew, gross. besides, again, to call the novels canon is to stretch the point.
i would argue that SURGE has weird internet porn flavor by default, given the fact that one of the articles was an interview with a catgirl porn star. like i said, a big part of the reason i dislike SURGE is the presentation.
i would argue that SURGE has weird internet porn flavor by default, given the fact that one of the articles was an interview with a catgirl porn star. like i said, a big part of the reason i dislike SURGE is the presentation.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| to call the novels canon is to stretch the point. |
Then what is canon if it isn't the narratives approved by FASA to explain, describe, explore, and give history to its game world? Why does being in a 4" x 6" paperback format make them less viable than the narratives in the 8" x 11.5" paperbacks?
mainly because the things that come up in the 4" by 6" paperbacks are batshit insane, and often directly contravene what's presented in the 8" by 11.5" books. Terminus Experiment, anyone? how about the two instances in novels where someone regrew their Essence? how about Worlds Without End, where it basically stated that shamans are just self-deluded hermetic mages?
There are lots of batshit insane things in the core books as well. Are those not canon?
Terminus Experiment: I vaguely remember this one but don't recal anything being horribly wrong with it that couldn't be explained.
Regrowing essence: don't recall this, nor the mechanism behind it.
Shamen vs. Hermetics: did it state this as a fact or as an opinion of a character in the book? I'm guessing the latter, in which case the only thing that tells you is what that particular character thinks about shamen.
Terminus Experiment: I vaguely remember this one but don't recal anything being horribly wrong with it that couldn't be explained.
Regrowing essence: don't recall this, nor the mechanism behind it.
Shamen vs. Hermetics: did it state this as a fact or as an opinion of a character in the book? I'm guessing the latter, in which case the only thing that tells you is what that particular character thinks about shamen.
MFB fine canon == 8 x 11.5
Then Shadowrun has had a dodgy internet porn flavour since 1st ed
Or have people forgotten the child prostitute trying to turn tricks on the PCs in Sprawl Sites?
Then Shadowrun has had a dodgy internet porn flavour since 1st ed
Or have people forgotten the child prostitute trying to turn tricks on the PCs in Sprawl Sites?
the batshit insane things in the core books aren't in direct contravention with the core material. they are the core material.
in Terminus Experiment, you had hundreds of metahumans infected with HMHVV who all turned into human-style vampires. vampires were also 'evil', even the one who'd been modified so he didn't feed on the essence of others to live.
regrowing essence occured twice. i can't recall the first novel, but it happened to a cybered-up ganger who became a bear shaman. some all-powerful spirit possessed him and melted away his cyberware, regrowing his essence in the process. the second time, it happened in one of Kenson's novels. some chick SURGEd and regrew her cybereyes.
as for Worlds Without End, it was admittedly an opinion--the opinion of an immortal elf with enough magical power and knowledge that she was able to cast spells before the Awakening. in other words, a pretty credible witness as far as these things go.
let's see, what else... how about having a spirit of light possess a cyberdeck? i know i'd want that in my games.
in Terminus Experiment, you had hundreds of metahumans infected with HMHVV who all turned into human-style vampires. vampires were also 'evil', even the one who'd been modified so he didn't feed on the essence of others to live.
regrowing essence occured twice. i can't recall the first novel, but it happened to a cybered-up ganger who became a bear shaman. some all-powerful spirit possessed him and melted away his cyberware, regrowing his essence in the process. the second time, it happened in one of Kenson's novels. some chick SURGEd and regrew her cybereyes.
as for Worlds Without End, it was admittedly an opinion--the opinion of an immortal elf with enough magical power and knowledge that she was able to cast spells before the Awakening. in other words, a pretty credible witness as far as these things go.
let's see, what else... how about having a spirit of light possess a cyberdeck? i know i'd want that in my games.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| Then Shadowrun has had a dodgy internet porn flavour since 1st ed |
when did i say dodgy internet porn didn't belong in SR?
Haven't read Terminus but was it to do with that british org that was Bio engineering new strains of HMHVV?
The novel you are missing is Nosferatu, another evil Vampire in that one. and it was a Troll Street Samurai that awakened under bear.
Ah yes, remember it was an ED Crossover book, and in ED Shamans are just deluded mages. Also in the TT book, it hints that Totems are merely poor reflections of the Passions. SO, yes, that one IS canon by your definition.
and the Lucifer Deck Scenario? why not? Free spirit that can doo serious matrix harm as plot device, need to find neophyte shaman with true name on her arm and get her to banish the damn thing before work goes to shhit and matrix dies. Wouldn't let a PC summon one, ever.
and before people ask, yes I am trying for my next belt in AH-Fu the art of knowing more shadwrun backstory than is really good for me.
The novel you are missing is Nosferatu, another evil Vampire in that one. and it was a Troll Street Samurai that awakened under bear.
Ah yes, remember it was an ED Crossover book, and in ED Shamans are just deluded mages. Also in the TT book, it hints that Totems are merely poor reflections of the Passions. SO, yes, that one IS canon by your definition.
and the Lucifer Deck Scenario? why not? Free spirit that can doo serious matrix harm as plot device, need to find neophyte shaman with true name on her arm and get her to banish the damn thing before work goes to shhit and matrix dies. Wouldn't let a PC summon one, ever.
and before people ask, yes I am trying for my next belt in AH-Fu the art of knowing more shadwrun backstory than is really good for me.
The evil part is obvious for the ones that feed on humans. It could have been a choice on the part of the one that didn't need essence, or it could have been a side effect of the experimentation. In those days, HMHVV vampires were evil. If you want good vampires, play WoD.
Regrowing essence: The first example, how do we know he regrew essence? Did it use the word essence, or did he just regain lost magic, perhaps through an instant initiation.
The second: she regrew cyberware, not essence (at least according to your quote, I never read the book). That definitely sounds odd, but I don't know a lot about SURGE, so I don't know if that's something it could figuratively do.
WWE: Yeah, we should believe everything the Immortal Elves tell us.
Spirit possession: spirits have been possessing objects in myths and legends for a long time. Shadowrun, whose premise includes the idea that some myths and legends spring up because of mana spikes, already includes the possibility that some spirits can possess objects. They can possess corpses, which are just objects with a lower threshold.
Regrowing essence: The first example, how do we know he regrew essence? Did it use the word essence, or did he just regain lost magic, perhaps through an instant initiation.
The second: she regrew cyberware, not essence (at least according to your quote, I never read the book). That definitely sounds odd, but I don't know a lot about SURGE, so I don't know if that's something it could figuratively do.
WWE: Yeah, we should believe everything the Immortal Elves tell us.
Spirit possession: spirits have been possessing objects in myths and legends for a long time. Shadowrun, whose premise includes the idea that some myths and legends spring up because of mana spikes, already includes the possibility that some spirits can possess objects. They can possess corpses, which are just objects with a lower threshold.
vampires were no more evil in those days than they are now, in SR. so vampires kill people to survive. so what? so do shadowrunners.
in the first example, the cyberware was "getting in the way", so the spirit removed it. once removed, the spirit was more able to use the shaman's magic. sounds like regrowing essence to me. in the second example, i believe it worked pretty much the same way. i haven't read the book, though, so i could be wrong.
i'm not talking about just possessing objects. i'm talking about a spirt of light (which, okay, what the hell is that in the first place?) possessing a cyberdeck, and making it uberbadass crazy. no thanks.
i'd be able to come up with more examples if i hadn't systematically attempted to remove the parts of my brain in which memories of the novels are stored. i mostly just remember me screaming "NOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" while stabbing my own skull frantically with a fork.
in the first example, the cyberware was "getting in the way", so the spirit removed it. once removed, the spirit was more able to use the shaman's magic. sounds like regrowing essence to me. in the second example, i believe it worked pretty much the same way. i haven't read the book, though, so i could be wrong.
i'm not talking about just possessing objects. i'm talking about a spirt of light (which, okay, what the hell is that in the first place?) possessing a cyberdeck, and making it uberbadass crazy. no thanks.
i'd be able to come up with more examples if i hadn't systematically attempted to remove the parts of my brain in which memories of the novels are stored. i mostly just remember me screaming "NOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" while stabbing my own skull frantically with a fork.
One slightly off-topic aside: neither vampires nor shadowrunners kill to survive. They can both live without ever having someone die because of their actions.
Back on topic: So basically what you're saying is that if you can't personally explain it using the rules presented in the core books it can't possibly be right? Interesting, albeit flawed, line of reasoning.
What if a rule comes out in a future book that explains it? Does it suddenly become canon?
Back on topic: So basically what you're saying is that if you can't personally explain it using the rules presented in the core books it can't possibly be right? Interesting, albeit flawed, line of reasoning.
What if a rule comes out in a future book that explains it? Does it suddenly become canon?
i'm saying that if i have to choose between what it says in the sourcebooks and what it says in a novel, the novel's going to lose every time. and because of that, i'm going to take a dim view of attempts to use novels as arguments that such-and-such is canon.
The Spirit of light never made a deck crazy, it merely caused serious damage to the matrix
Mitsuhama tried, and failed, to teach it to copy the patterns of light it found in computers and bring them back for mitsuhama to read
They figured they could make an unstoppable hacking tool with it
It never possessed a deck
Oh and MFB, how man times were things add/altered in the sourcebooks to fit in with a novel
THe wolf and raven stuff
Professor S confirming that Elven Nosferatu could exist, under rare circumstances
The HKB Transys stinkup
the list is far longer than that
Mitsuhama tried, and failed, to teach it to copy the patterns of light it found in computers and bring them back for mitsuhama to read
They figured they could make an unstoppable hacking tool with it
It never possessed a deck
Oh and MFB, how man times were things add/altered in the sourcebooks to fit in with a novel
THe wolf and raven stuff
Professor S confirming that Elven Nosferatu could exist, under rare circumstances
The HKB Transys stinkup
the list is far longer than that
You wanting it to not be canon doesn't change the fact that it is. Closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't change the world, it just makes you look silly.
then there are a hell of a lot of SR players who look silly. i'm not saying that if it's in a novel, it can't be canon. i'm saying that the fact that it's in a novel doesn't make it canon.
regardless, none of this has much to to with the fact that SURGE sucks.
regardless, none of this has much to to with the fact that SURGE sucks.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.