Why would you pay a rigger hazard pay? Even when he's working his tail off he's "just sitting at his desk." Most of the time he could even operate through AR and never be at risk of taking damage no matter what happens to his drones.

well, one reason you'd pay a rigger more than you might pay other types is his level of ability. a web designer just sits at his desk all day doing nothing, too, yet even the mid-range ones can charge $100/hr and up. a good rigger is going to be skilled, and is going to expect compensation that reflects that.

I don't have a problem with paying him more. The larger and more approriate a person's skillset is, the more they should earn because of it. And because you're paying them more, you'd want them doing work more often instead of just sitting at their desk. Low level techs and/or automated systems reading sensor signals from tons of drones, with the riggers being alerted when something is out of the ordinary makes sense to me (at least on cursory inspection).

But they definitely shouldn't get hazard pay when they're not even at risk. If they do go hot sim, they'd get the hazard pay, but they'd better be able to prove (in triplicate) that the situation required it. There are regs for almost every situation where a cop may find himself needing to get in the way of a bullet, riggers included.

I haven't really thought overly much about it beyond what I've said here though. In game, I'll bring in a rigger if the situation calls for it. If it doesn't, I won't. Hazard pay doesn't even cross my mind because all my NPCs work for free.

you know, i just thought of a very good reason why security riggers should get hazard pay. they should get it for the same reason that troops in a combat zone get it, even when the troops are sleeping or digging foxholes or writing letters or what have you: they could be thrust into combat at any time. moreover, a security rigger is an obstacle to anyone trying to oppose that security. defeating the rigger's drones is one way to overcome that obstacle. sneaking in and shooting the rigger in the back of the head, or kidnapping him as he drives to the office in the morning, or slipping poison into his beer after work--these are all other ways of overcoming that obstacle.

Kidnapping the dispatcher is a good way to screw up communications. Kidnapping the CEO is a good way to waltz right past most security. Do they get hazard pay?

Do soldiers who are sitting on their asses 100 miles away from the front lines, with no chance of coming under attack get hazard pay?

A rigger, during the course of his normal work day, is nowhere near the firing line. When he is operating almost at peak efficiency running his squadron of drones, he is nowhere near the firing line. Paying someone hazard pay for not being in danger is bad for the books.

You want hazard pay? Find a bullet and be near it. Don't sit behind your desk with nothing more at risk than a few company drones.

mfb: The rigger isn't in Iraq. He's effectively doing his job from another country altogether he's so far removed from the danger.

Yes, drones are much more effective, but a squad of 15 drones is only marginally more effective when the rigger is jumped into one of them than it is when he isn't jumped into any at all. Whether the situation needs that small bonus would depend on what the regs say.

Kage: Unless your rigger is sitting on top of the drone with a skinlink a jammer can shut it down. If you tie your riggers to the drones, then by all means they should get hazard pay, probably more than the average joe cop gets.

Pilot is where the good programmer aspect comes in. Tactical analysis, intuitive knowhow, and knowledge of drone warfare is what makes the rigger better for the job of actually running the drones once they've been programmed. His knowledge will also help the programmer determine what constitutes "good preprogrammed responses." That he can jump in and lay waste to the countryside is definitely a benefit, but not something that would be used every time someone gets seen jaywalking.

Obviously things may differ in your campaigns, and that's cool. I just don't see constant hazard pay for people who aren't in danger as being a sound business idea.

Kage: one drone becoming a major badass is an improvement over a bunch of normal drones, but not enough to (IMO) warrant the dangers involved. You can get an assload of control without risking physical damage, especially in SR4.

Putting your riggers out in the field? Sure, give them hazard pay. That's not what the discussion was about.

Perprogrammed instructions are part of pilot. Pilot is how the system reacts to stimuli. That includes heuristic general algorithms and preprogrammed specific responses. Or are you trying to say that you need a VCR rig to give preprogrammed instructions? If not, then you don't need a rigger.

Yes, none of that is augmented by a VCR, but I don't view the difference between a programmer and a rigger as being just a VCR. The rigger has dedicated his career and technical focus towards vehicles, vehicular combat, chases, etc. A programmer is a more general animal.

Obviously we disagree. That's cool.

hyzmarca: The rigger is completely immune to damage unless he chooses to be. Whether that choice is viewed as sound or not would be handled by regulations, the same as handling normal police moving into risk, firing weapons, etc. The moment he has to put himself at risk from Black Hammer is the moment he starts earning hazard pay. But I already said that.

Burn the heretic. Kill the mutant. Purge the unclean.

What about the mutant unclean heretics? Do we get extra special treatment?

They get burned, killed, and purged.

Well, I could go for a good purging every now and then (probably due to a lack of fiber). Can I somehow get a "I'm unclean" bumper sticker and a couple of "I'm not a mutant heretic" badges?

No, those are for the kiddies. What you want is a tattoo etched into your skin. With acid. The Imperium demands nothing less than your hide.

Can do!

But you know what's really freaky? It took 6 pages for this thread to derail instead of the usual 6 posts.

People really feel strongly about dragons, what can I say.

Because you cannot hurt a rigger that doesn'tw ant to be hurt any more than you can hurt a hacker that doesn't want to get hurt. Yes, as soon as he jumps in he's in danger. At that point he gets hazard pay. But I've said that at least three times now, so obviously I'm phrasing it poorly. I have no idea how else to phrase it though.

Comparing a soldier in the field vs. a rigger:

The soldier is always at risk of danger. Day or night, asleep or awake, on the job or off (technically he's always on the job). The rigger on the other hand is only at danger when he chooses to be, and if that danger gets too much he can just disconnect or power down. It might hurt a bit, but he has options that a soldier in the field does not when it comes to avoiding death, dismemberment, or worse.

except that, especially in SR4, the rigger is not only subject to damage when he's jumped into a drone. he's on the Matrix, whether he's jumped into a drone or not. in SR3, it's a bit harder; i'd have to check, but i think it's only possible in a CCSS (which is stupid).

Traveling the matrix in AR doesn't open you up to any danger at all, apart from the risk of getting your system fried.

Obviously you disagree with my view. That's cool. If you can provide info that convinces me otherwise I'll happily change, but I just can't see a corporation paying a rigger combat pay all day every day when he isn't in danger. YMMV, IMHO, and IYGDWYWTD.

Anybody a member of Something Awful? They've got a comedy Goldmine where they drew a bunch of retarded dragons.

James, you cant TRAVEL the matrix in AR, you are stuck at looking at web pages from the location of your meat body
to captain's chair dronnes from outside the vehicle requires at least cold VR

and even if it WAS possible in AR, anyone can now triangulate where yourlocation is and send a missile up the rigger's ass

[pathetic attempt to bring thread back on track]You'd DEFINITELY NEED VR TO HIT A DRAGON WITH ANYTHING! [/pathetic attempt to bring thread back on track]

And Kremlin, what's with the stuff on the bottom of your sig?

Dragons are neat and everything, but they're not as all-powerful as you would think in Shadowrun. I honestly fear an MBT more than a dragon, though the chances of encountering the former are higher you can usually negotiate with them.

emo: don't you recognize Geek Code when you see it? Guess Kremlin needs a block for his SRGC.

How do I decipher it?

And what do you think of the retarded dragons? Don't be intimidated by the hideous veneer of Lowtax; scroll down a little.

You decipher it by looking up the code, of course Either that or just knowing, but that method generally requires doing the former first.

As to the dragons: I find that the pictures say more about the artists than the subjects.

They ROCK!

Laser is a liar! There is no home page listed in his signature! Revoke his geek code license!

Learning the code is something that only a true geek woudl do. you're much better off just heading over to http://www.kluge.net/ungeek.html and copying the block into the translator.

That Hellhound missile is dual-natured, meaning it won't surpirse the dragon, can be possessed by astral spirits, and, since it's living material, controlled with spells. Actually, it's not a whole lot better off than a missile guided by spirits.

What if the dragon is retarded?

A retarded dragon probably still has above average human intelligence...

Tell me about the Oryctolagus cuniculus, George.

i just don't understand how you expect a rigger to do his job, McMurray. they're not allowed to jump into their drones unless they have sufficient cause--they're apparently not even allowed to operate in VR at all unless there's some sort of emeregency. they're apparently supposed to sit around in the break room and wait for their drones to discover something amiss before they're allowed to do anything useful--like, say, hopping from drone to drone and looking for trouble themselves. i think i'd probably fire any 'rigger' who treated his job that way.

Why would you have to hop from drone to drone looking for trouble? The thing's sensor data doesn't change a bit, and you can look at that on screen.

Why would you have to function in VR most of the time? You get the same info from AR, and switch to VR when necessary.

When something happens, then you switch over or jump in. I didn't say that it wasn't allowed, just that it isn't necessary to do it all the time.

I think yur method of handling riggers leaves a lot to be desired, especially from a fiscal standpoint. I'll tell you what, when 2070 rolls around, there's magic in the world, and people can control normally autonomous vehicles witht heir brains at the risk of getting thrown into a coma, we'll see which model corporations choose. Until then, you play your game, I'll play mine.

Sorry, Mario, but the topic is in another thread.

How do I emoticon Toad? I imagine you'd start with a left parenthesis.

They die to dragons easily, too.

Double posted for topicness.

You're still there interpreting the data, using your analytical skills. The data you see doesn't change at all, except that you lose access to smell, taste, and touch. You've still got sound and visual, which are the only really important senses the vast majority of the time. If the drone actually has touch, taste, and smell sensors and those sensors actually detect something useful, a little popup window saying "I smell something bad" appears and you then go VR to get a whiff yourself.

If a firefight starts, that becomes an instance where the rigger is expected to jump in. He'll start earning hazard pay at that point.

I never said riggers can't or won't jump in. I said they wouldn't spend all day putting themselves at risk without cause, and hence wouldn't get hazard pay every second they were sitting at their desk.

you're missing it, though. when you jump into a drone, you use your own stats and skills. for most riggers, those stats and skills are going to end up being more dice than the drone can throw at anything. that means that a perception check made by the rigger, jumped into one of his drones, is going to be a better perception check than the drone itself could make. in other words, the drone might not pop up an "i smell something funny" message, because it won't have sensed it. the rigger who spends his time hopping through all of his drones in sequence and making perception checks, though, might very well smell something funny.

Ummm... Okay. They're using the exact same sensors to perceive the world. The rigger is getting the exact same data the drone gets, whether he is jumped in or not. His perception test doesn't involve getting more information from the world around him. They can't, unless you assume that the mechanical devices on the drone somehow start functioning better because he's jumped in. The higher dice for the test involves better interpretation of that information, which can be done just as easily as him sitting at a screen.

the simsense data is the same, but it's processed differently. a rigger jumped into a drone processes the simsense himself, using his own attributes and skills. simsense fed to him from a drone in AR is processed by the drone. it's the difference between looking at a video of an area and actually going to the area and seeing it yourself.