Full Version: Wireless and Magical Networks
Yeah, this stuff is strictly for those who love reading too much into the undefined nature of Magical anomalies
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| Maybe the Idols are influencial Tibetan monks or those who have passed on while trying to unlock the secrets of the Great Mandala. The Idols most likely have SOMETHING to do with the Resonance. I'm really curious as to what they are and how they're involved. |
Perhaps (and if you happen to be one of my players this will constitute a spoiler so please don't read further):
Big D was playing around with the newborn Matrix and introducing elements from the old one, e.g. JackBNimble (fragment of Lochost?), and the code that created the Crash Virus (fragment of Dis? or Vestrial?) and Mirage (fragment of Mynbruje). While we're at it, let's not forget 'the optical chip labeled "BK-924"'. Maybe these were fragments that had survived in draconic memory crystals. Perhaps he knew what they were, and perhaps not.
Roxy had broken into / hacked into the research company that Dunk had been using to conduct these experiments (Gossamer Threads) and was responsible for 'freeing' the code that became the Crash Virus (and perhaps other code as well). The Horrors may have been manipulating Roxy from 'beyond the bridge', because they want into the Matrix just like they were formerly trying to 'hack into' the Great Pattern.
Later Leonardo came along and was doing similar things. Renraku get hold of his stuff and along comes Deus. And now, remember, Leo's apparently working for Lofwyr, who might be continuing the Big D's work now that he's Loremaster and all.
The Matrix 1.0 AIs formed out of the collective unconscious of Matrix users (like the Passions had previously formed out of the the collective unconscious of the Great Pattern), but they were forming around those fragments of Fourth World code like raindrops form around seeds of dust. They had only partial knowledge or memory of their ED Passion origins.
Meanwhile, out in the astral there remained other fragments of Fourth World Passions (Totems might be an example). A lot of these may have been milling around in the Great Mandala and similar magical networks.
Anyway along comes the new Matrix (weave your own conspiracy about why- I've already mentioned my version) and the gates are opened: the various fragments of consciousness surviving the Crash (in Lofwyr's Matrix systems, for example, or in JackBNimble and Jormungand?) have partially 'crossed over' and have started to meet up with the corresponding fragments of Passion consciousness that have survived in the Astral. These fragments are coalescing into new beings that span both realms: the Idols / Sublime Complexes.
That's my take.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) | ||
No, because the downloadable version didn't include the chapter on Dvilgaynon that was added to the later version. |
So. Can anyone with the relevant version of the Dragons book (and the Cara Fahd book) fill us in about Dvilgaynon (who may or may not be Dorje Drakden) and any potential connections to Tibet?
The idea to do with draconic memory crystals being used to make chips is interesting.
Dragon inof will appear when I have a day off to write it.
Dragon inof will appear when I have a day off to write it.
What does this have to do with the technomancers who can upload their own memories and experiences onto (protected) exteral file storage? It seems dragons are no longer alone in being able to create and manipulate memory crystals.
Indeed.
Actually I'm not clear on this (is anybody?): technomancers can mentally transfer a file to a physical storage device, but in the RAR can they store their own memories? And if so, is it as a Simsense recording that anybody can subsequently access? Or would it be some strange format that only other technomancers can read (assuming it hasn't been encrypted by a Hash sprite)? Or would it strictly be only accessible by the TM who created it?
If it's either of the first two options then we also face the strange prospect of TMs being able to send their experiences to each other through the Matrix. You could end up with a clan of TMs that share so much of their experiences that they're pretty much a Borg-like collective mind.
Actually I'm not clear on this (is anybody?): technomancers can mentally transfer a file to a physical storage device, but in the RAR can they store their own memories? And if so, is it as a Simsense recording that anybody can subsequently access? Or would it be some strange format that only other technomancers can read (assuming it hasn't been encrypted by a Hash sprite)? Or would it strictly be only accessible by the TM who created it?
If it's either of the first two options then we also face the strange prospect of TMs being able to send their experiences to each other through the Matrix. You could end up with a clan of TMs that share so much of their experiences that they're pretty much a Borg-like collective mind.
I'd say they can download memories as simple visual data(or whatever is appropiate sense) but not as a full simsense and record crren experiences as they have them as simsense. Thats just my ref rulings.
I'd say the existence of the 'Resonance Link' submersion echo (which does something similar to what I described but it's only the 'dominant mood and emotions' that are communicated) probably supports you there. But if you've got a Resonance Link going on, and you're transmitting what you see and hear, then you're moving in the direction I've described. Perhaps 'Collective Mind' or something like it will be an advanced echo in Unwired. I don't object to the idea provided that it's not something that every TM can do straight out of the box.
EDIT: of course any TM could burn a bit of Resonance and have themselves a Simrig implanted. Hmm...
EDIT: of course any TM could burn a bit of Resonance and have themselves a Simrig implanted. Hmm...
For that matter technos can just use an external simrig. That's not as harmful as implantation.
I imagine lots of people using full-ASIST backups of their memories. Could that be what JackBNimble is? A memory recording spliced with an SK to produce a program with complex personality? An attempt to make an AI? Or perhaps a prgram capable of isolating and giving cognitive abilities to such recordings. Think about Captian Chaos's last moments. He was backed up as data. How? A quick full-ASIST scan of his brain combined with agent-like programming to emulate consciousness. Ghosts in the Machine could be nothing more than Agents running memory recordings. An Agent already has self-replicating abilities, right?
A sufficiently advanced autonomous program like an agent that is desgined to find full-ASIST recordings, back itself up/copy itself, then assimilate the recording in order to spontaneously create sentience and maybe an AI. Such a program could spread indefinetely until the desired result accidently happens. Ghosts in the machine may just be by products of an advanced version that seeks out unconscious users and backs up their personalities in order to perserve them or obtain full unconscious memories as well. After all, what a person decides to record and store may be edited, which would be useless for emulation.
Wasn't there a story about self-replicating SK's in Target:Matrix or somewhere? It was rumored that the programs were desgined by students and were even evolving. Something along those lines. Could the Sublime Complexes be these SK's? Could the Ghost in the Machine be related to the Sublime Complex? Are these the Idols?
I imagine lots of people using full-ASIST backups of their memories. Could that be what JackBNimble is? A memory recording spliced with an SK to produce a program with complex personality? An attempt to make an AI? Or perhaps a prgram capable of isolating and giving cognitive abilities to such recordings. Think about Captian Chaos's last moments. He was backed up as data. How? A quick full-ASIST scan of his brain combined with agent-like programming to emulate consciousness. Ghosts in the Machine could be nothing more than Agents running memory recordings. An Agent already has self-replicating abilities, right?
A sufficiently advanced autonomous program like an agent that is desgined to find full-ASIST recordings, back itself up/copy itself, then assimilate the recording in order to spontaneously create sentience and maybe an AI. Such a program could spread indefinetely until the desired result accidently happens. Ghosts in the machine may just be by products of an advanced version that seeks out unconscious users and backs up their personalities in order to perserve them or obtain full unconscious memories as well. After all, what a person decides to record and store may be edited, which would be useless for emulation.
Wasn't there a story about self-replicating SK's in Target:Matrix or somewhere? It was rumored that the programs were desgined by students and were even evolving. Something along those lines. Could the Sublime Complexes be these SK's? Could the Ghost in the Machine be related to the Sublime Complex? Are these the Idols?
Meh. It's not exactly novel. I never believed for a second that Alice, for example, was anything more than the collection of memories and the psych profile Pychotrope/Mirage had saved before they somehow got loose. As far as I'm concerned, AIs are about as self-aware as a ham sandwich.
But I do find the whole thing amusing because from the way it's framed in RH, technomancers don't need anything to upload them except their magic radio brains.
But I do find the whole thing amusing because from the way it's framed in RH, technomancers don't need anything to upload them except their magic radio brains.
Self-aware in a functional capacity, but not anything too deep, no.
System Failure seems pretty clear that PCs can end up as true sentient Ghosts in the Machine, but that doesn't mean that the Ghost can't be a copy rather than a continuation. This is like the Star Trek Transporter thought experiment. Suppose the transporter scans my body and produces a duplicate of me out of different matter. Clearly that is a copy, even if it doesn't know it. What if the original is destroyed? Well then it's still a copy (but doesn't know it). But what if my body is dismantled, and the actual building blocks moved from A to B and reconstituted? Is the new body still a copy or do I (the original) experience continuity. Does it even matter? Or is our conception of self actually something of an illusion?
Sorry I'm wandering off on one. More relevant to Shadowrun is this question: are Spirits of Man really the dearly departed, or just an emulation? [Forked to here for further consideration]
Sorry I'm wandering off on one. More relevant to Shadowrun is this question: are Spirits of Man really the dearly departed, or just an emulation? [Forked to here for further consideration]
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| technomancers don't need anything to upload them except their magic radio brains. |
I've seen quite a few objections to this magic radio brain idea. I agree it does seem a bit weird, unless technomancer brains are indeed magical in some sense (which we can't really scoff at, since this is Shadowrun and all). If they are magical, they can be connecting to the Matrix through its resonance with the astral / omathani / dragon network, and I'm ok with that. I wonder what kind of experiments the Hermetics are doing on TMs.
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| Could that be what JackBNimble is? |
The fact that Dunk (allegedly) never cracked the encryption on JBN suggests that whatever it is, it isn't a product of the Sixth World.
Or a product he created, maybe he stoleit from someone else. I prefer the idea that it is communication from the other world of the matrix. Aliens in Shadowrun seems to weird for me. Though then again I think horrors come from mars...
Yes aliens I don't care for, unless Dragons didn't evolve on Earth, which I can live with.
As for JBN, well we're back full circle to the comment that triggered this thread. For my money 'communication from another world' meaning Fourth or Second World is just too neat to dismiss.
As for JBN, well we're back full circle to the comment that triggered this thread. For my money 'communication from another world' meaning Fourth or Second World is just too neat to dismiss.
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| Wasn't there a story about self-replicating SK's in Target:Matrix or somewhere? It was rumored that the programs were desgined by students and were even evolving. |
Yes, the Code Clan. Target: Matrix p113
Damn, how did I miss this thread. Apparently I've just been gone to long or something. Hope no one gets to upset about my ressurecting it.
Just a few of my thoughts laying things out so they're nice and pretty for the parallels between magic/matrix, old dragons, and old networks and such:
According to Puck in RH, the Otaku can back up their experiences (call it SIMsense if you like) onto hard copy - optical discs
Dragons to the same thing with memory crystals/dragon speech
Dunk was a master of dragon speech. If he's so fascinated by the matrix, which, since it uses fiberoptics and optic discs for memory, is optic based. Dunkie often enjoyed hitching a ride on deckers like Jane-in-the-Box to experience the matrix.
Leonardo made a deck that worked with advanced optics, which is what Lowfy wanted him so badly for (and later on in SoE it's hinted taht the SK grids are able to monitor other data traffic because they're so advanced, like Renraku used to be. hints of Leo reappearing).
Dunkie left a will bequest to look in to (punny) advnced optics.
Leonardo's little androgynous buddy is rumored to be both an otaku and magically active
The little buddy is also the guy behind the corp in India that has access to all the Orisha network stuff (for lack of spelling, I'm sorry)
It's hinted that the orisha network holds what is basically an akashic vault. Akashic records basically being the records of people s lives and thoughts
The indrisians believed that no thouhgt was unique, that it was all thought out before. probably because ofo their nifty little metaphysical vault of akashic records.
The little buddy is trying to access those records because he longer has access to Leo to carry out the "Great Work"
It's never really clear exactly what the Great WOrk is, but it could very well be some sort of large pattern since Leo was around in Thera (in a house of crystal and light or somesuch no less).
Other great networks include the Dragon Lines taht Ryumyo and Lung are fighting over that used to be part of a network of magic of eastern dragons.
Oh hey, Dviglynon (how the hell do you spell that again) is an eastern dragon. Maybe SHE's interested in that.
Those same lines also go through Tibet and Hong Kong
Hong Kong got the Dragon of Wind and Fire from Dunkie, who I'm sure knew where it was going. Tibet got the seal and Aneki who got Deus from Leo (more or less).
Hong Kong is also starting to have astral shallows where spirits are starting to bleed through (ddo the Yama Kings sound like horrors to anyone else BTW?)
And as another fun little aside, the corp that's trying to dig under Mt Everest to get to Tibet is partly owned by Rhonabwy. Rhonabwy who lives in the UK where fun little Leylines (also sometimes called dragon lines) are appearing fresh, and islands are popping out of the sea. And he's mentiond at looking into underwater research in RH.
Do I have any conclusions at this point? well no, btu it's a hell of a lot of fun tying all the strings of patterns together. Besides, Dvilg isn't the only Great Dragon that hasn't been "rediscovered" yet. Moleskin anyone?
Just a few of my thoughts laying things out so they're nice and pretty for the parallels between magic/matrix, old dragons, and old networks and such:
According to Puck in RH, the Otaku can back up their experiences (call it SIMsense if you like) onto hard copy - optical discs
Dragons to the same thing with memory crystals/dragon speech
Dunk was a master of dragon speech. If he's so fascinated by the matrix, which, since it uses fiberoptics and optic discs for memory, is optic based. Dunkie often enjoyed hitching a ride on deckers like Jane-in-the-Box to experience the matrix.
Leonardo made a deck that worked with advanced optics, which is what Lowfy wanted him so badly for (and later on in SoE it's hinted taht the SK grids are able to monitor other data traffic because they're so advanced, like Renraku used to be. hints of Leo reappearing).
Dunkie left a will bequest to look in to (punny) advnced optics.
Leonardo's little androgynous buddy is rumored to be both an otaku and magically active
The little buddy is also the guy behind the corp in India that has access to all the Orisha network stuff (for lack of spelling, I'm sorry)
It's hinted that the orisha network holds what is basically an akashic vault. Akashic records basically being the records of people s lives and thoughts
The indrisians believed that no thouhgt was unique, that it was all thought out before. probably because ofo their nifty little metaphysical vault of akashic records.
The little buddy is trying to access those records because he longer has access to Leo to carry out the "Great Work"
It's never really clear exactly what the Great WOrk is, but it could very well be some sort of large pattern since Leo was around in Thera (in a house of crystal and light or somesuch no less).
Other great networks include the Dragon Lines taht Ryumyo and Lung are fighting over that used to be part of a network of magic of eastern dragons.
Oh hey, Dviglynon (how the hell do you spell that again) is an eastern dragon. Maybe SHE's interested in that.
Those same lines also go through Tibet and Hong Kong
Hong Kong got the Dragon of Wind and Fire from Dunkie, who I'm sure knew where it was going. Tibet got the seal and Aneki who got Deus from Leo (more or less).
Hong Kong is also starting to have astral shallows where spirits are starting to bleed through (ddo the Yama Kings sound like horrors to anyone else BTW?)
And as another fun little aside, the corp that's trying to dig under Mt Everest to get to Tibet is partly owned by Rhonabwy. Rhonabwy who lives in the UK where fun little Leylines (also sometimes called dragon lines) are appearing fresh, and islands are popping out of the sea. And he's mentiond at looking into underwater research in RH.
Do I have any conclusions at this point? well no, btu it's a hell of a lot of fun tying all the strings of patterns together. Besides, Dvilg isn't the only Great Dragon that hasn't been "rediscovered" yet. Moleskin anyone?
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| Hong Kong is also starting to have astral shallows where spirits are starting to bleed through (ddo the Yama Kings sound like horrors to anyone else BTW?) |
Not in the context of the shadow spirits in SM.
| QUOTE |
| And as another fun little aside, the corp that's trying to dig under Mt Everest to get to Tibet is partly owned by Rhonabwy. Rhonabwy who lives in the UK where fun little Leylines (also sometimes called dragon lines) are appearing fresh, and islands are popping out of the sea. And he's mentiond at looking into underwater research in RH. |
Say what?
yeah, the new take on Shadow Spirits does kind of change things. That's why it just seems a hint of maybes.
As for the second part, there's a corp that is based at the base of Everest, that Rhonabwy has ties to, check I think in SoE.
I forget the corps name, but I think it starts w/ an 'R', which of course means it starts with an "L" or something. I'd look up a Pg ref for you to make sure I'm not talking out my ass, which has happened before, but one of my players has had my SoE for like 2 months. I hate when that happens.
I hope that was the "Say what?" you were referring to. In any case, feel free to ignore me until I can find that reference if you like. Which could be a while if I can't get that damn book back some time soon.
As for the second part, there's a corp that is based at the base of Everest, that Rhonabwy has ties to, check I think in SoE.
I forget the corps name, but I think it starts w/ an 'R', which of course means it starts with an "L" or something. I'd look up a Pg ref for you to make sure I'm not talking out my ass, which has happened before, but one of my players has had my SoE for like 2 months. I hate when that happens.
I hope that was the "Say what?" you were referring to. In any case, feel free to ignore me until I can find that reference if you like. Which could be a while if I can't get that damn book back some time soon.
You mean the "Saeder-Krupp/Regulus joint deep mining operation in Okhaldhunga, under the shadow of Mt. Everest"? [SoA p67]
Rhonabwy and Lofwyr working together? The mind boggles...
Is Rhonabwy involved in Regulus? Can't find anything in the various on-line resources to support that.
that's the one I was referring to, and I recall him being connected in there. I believe it was in the corp section of SoE, but I still ahven't got that book back yet. Once again, I could be wrong. someone check SoE for me?
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