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ChicagosFinest
NO OFFENSE TO THE WRITERS AND ADMINS!

This is meant to be a tongue and cheek bitchfest for all thos parties interested. NOT an attack on the writers and admins (I love you guys like my imaginary frat boy brother. As Chris Farley said "Brothers don't shake hands. brothers HUG!")

So lets bitch, whine and moan about everything and have a good time ok?

For me (I'm reading Runner Havens) my #1 gripe is the Crimson Crush. BBBBOOOOO!!! What a knock of of the Black panthers and BTL dealing on the side? Why doesn't the new govenor (or the old one) flood redmond with cheep BTL's! That will teach those radical ork visionaries a thing or two about doing positive things for the people in there community while being radical and revolutionary enough to stand up against their oppressors. BBBBOOOOOO!!!!!

AGAIN I MUST STRESS THAT THIS IS NOT TO BE OFFENSIVE TO THE WRITERS OR ADMINS. IM HOPING FOR GOOD CLEAN FUN WITH NO PERSONAL SHOTS BELOW THE BELT. biggrin.gif
ChicagosFinest
You know what bad Idea...... Can an admin take this down or delete it. I only see evil comming from this post and not good.
hobgoblin
hmm, i expected mfb to have already asked "what isn't?!" or something similar...
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (ChicagosFinest)
You know what bad Idea...... Can an admin take this down or delete it. I only see evil comming from this post and not good.

There's nothing wrong with folks having a chat about things they don't like as long as they do it without it degernating into a flaming mess. That being said, please don't let it degenerate into a flaming mess. smile.gif

Butterblume
To my knowledge it was never exactly explained how fake sins work. BOOO!
fistandantilus4.0
Matrix book has some. Essentially data planning, ghacking in to various systems, leaving data behind to 'validate' a SIN. Creating a credit history, school records, birth certificate, etc.

Crimson Crush: They've been around for a few editions. And the mayor can't do that 'cause BTL's are really expensive.Plus, corps would lose their cheap cheap manual labor force. Besides that, you gotta have some "fight the powa'" folks. Other wise, all you've got is "the powa", and that's boring without fighting.
Butterblume
I was thinking more of a backtrack search, where someone has your biometric data or dna or whatever, and tries to find all SINs linked to that.

I have some vague ideas about preventing something like that, but they are not very satisfying, and won't work with a central SIN database.

This is the one background issue I never understood, so again: BOOO!
fistandantilus4.0
Well, a lot of ID types, like high end credsticks, require ID types like eye scans, DNA for platinum sticks, that sort of thing. So it would stand to reason that there would be databases storing this information. Search the systems, and see what matches.

What bothers me is lack of follow up on Hatcherman. BOOO!!
knasser

I see no reason why we can't keep this thread civilised - if someone really dislikes Shadowrun, then they're probably not hanging around Dumpshock. All criticism can probably be taken as "I really like SR, but this bit bugs me."

Me? I can't stand Technomancers. Magic taking over the matrix - do not like. It's the only thing in Shadowrun that bothers me, I think. Sadly I think with the next product release I'm finally going to have to start houseruling. Fuck and double fuck. frown.gif

Dragon worshippers. Okay, not Fanpro's fault at all. I just get annoyed by people who go "Ooo Wonderful Lofwyr has initiate grade 86 he's sooo invinicible and green is such an attractive colour, I always thought." etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Yep, that's it. I think I'm done in this thread. biggrin.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
I was thinking more of a backtrack search, where someone has your biometric data or dna or whatever, and tries to find all SINs linked to that.


Well, DNA tests are accurate to about 1 in 1 billion. You can do a more in depth test that is more discriminatory, but I can't imagine that the hand held models have ever been made much better. That means that in the whole world, any strip of DNA you put into the machine is going to turn up like 6 or 7 individuals (many of whom may be SINless).

So if you happen to be lucky enough to have all your genetic duplicates living in the Central African Empire or something where none of them appear on official databases. you could plausibly carry up to 6 fake SINs and have that be backtraced without even raising eyebrows.

DNA scans can rule someone out withincredible accuracy and power. And as sch they make great scans for credstick or entrance verification (if someone isn't an authorized person, they have a better chance of winning the lottery than they do of being able to pass a DNA scan). But they won't make a 100% positive match ever. They'll always bring up a small list of potential people from around the world, and the computer will then check their last financial, travel, employment, and medical records to determine the most likely candidate to put on top. And if your Fake SIN is good enough, it will have enough Google Bombing going on that your fake SIN will come up as the first name and it will have your face on it and everything. That will be the end of that most of the time.

QUOTE
What bothers me is lack of follow up on Hatcherman.


He was the recipient of early Cybermancy over a decade ago. He's dead now, one way or another. With modern, advanced cybermantic techniques he could probablyy persist for that amount of time, but before the sacrifice of people like Hatchetman the cybermancy we have today just wouldn't be possible. The stable cyberzombies of the 2070s are a direct result of hands on research with people like Hatchetman. We salute these brave (and dead) guin... test subjects.

-Frank
fistandantilus4.0
That was beautiful man. *sniffle*

Thanks for the closure.
Draconis
Yes hooray for cyberzomb..... hey wait a sec. Screw those bastards.
ChicagosFinest
Not hearing more about cyber zombies in Street magic BBBBOOOOO!!!! biggrin.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (ChicagosFinest)
Not hearing more about cyber zombies in Street magic BBBBOOOOO!!!! biggrin.gif

Cyberzombies were never in the magic book, you'll have to wait for augmentation. Booo!

-Frank
ChicagosFinest
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (ChicagosFinest @ Nov 4 2006, 03:16 PM)
Not hearing more about cyber zombies in Street magic BBBBOOOOO!!!!  biggrin.gif

Cyberzombies were never in the magic book, you'll have to wait for augmentation. Booo!

-Frank

LOL I stand corrected! Thanks Frank your a loveable guy now get writing on my cyberzombies! Alpha and Omega have a lot of splaining to do!

OH, and BBBBBOOOO about not hearing about Harlequin, His aprentise (I forget her name), or excalibur. BBBBOOOO!!!

FINALLY.. Whats up with no Stuffer shack run at the end of 4th edition BBBBOOOOO!!!!
Dale
SURGE : BOO!

And other than Hatchetman, what's happened to all the major signature Shadowrun characters since the last decade? There really needs to be some sort of headcount or something to see who's still alive and in the biz.
Sally? Ghost? Sam? Kham? Wolfgang?
Butterblume
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
That means that in the whole world, any strip of DNA you put into the machine is going to turn up like 6 or 7 individuals (many of whom may be SINless).

I guess you were distracted when you implied that a search in the SIN database would turn up SINless grinbig.gif.

QUOTE
So if you happen to be lucky enough to have all your genetic duplicates living in the Central African Empire or something where none of them appear on official databases. you could plausibly carry up to 6 fake SINs and have that be backtraced without even raising eyebrows.

Would it raise eyebrows if 6 of those DNA matches live in your hometown, and the biometric data (or even an attached photograph) is practically identical?

QUOTE
But they won't make a 100% positive match ever. They'll always bring up a small list of potential people from around the world, and the computer will then check their last financial, travel, employment, and medical records to determine the most likely candidate to put on top. And if your Fake SIN is good enough, it will have enough Google Bombing going on that your fake SIN will come up as the first name and it will have your face on it and everything. That will be the end of that most of the time.

Security isn't dumb, if they got your data from a crime scene, they won't stop looking at the first SIN the computers provide, they know it will be most likely a fake, and take a look at all of them.
Just to be clear: I'm not talking about a SIN check per se, but about trying to find all matching SINs connected to data someone somewhere found somehow for some reason biggrin.gif.
kzt
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 4 2006, 02:51 PM)
DNA scans can rule someone out withincredible accuracy and power. And as sch they make great scans for credstick or entrance verification (if someone isn't an authorized person, they have a better chance of winning the lottery than they do of being able to pass a DNA scan). But they won't make a 100% positive match ever.

This is why DNA is considered is not useful as a part of biometric verification system, which is the application here. It doesn't distinguish between identical twins, clones etc. Plus the sequencing process to get high resolution takes too long to be useful in making go-no go decisions. Its still very useful in other ways, such as biometric identification, but not for verification.

An effective biometric verifier has to have "chaotic morphogenesis of its minutiae". Which means that you don't have duplicates at all because minor initial factors in fetal development change the outcome greatly.

Fingerprints are one. While fingerprint patterns are inherited, the actual fingerprints are unique even between identical twins. As are irises, with a likelihood of a match between two people of 1 in 10^78. And retinal patterns. And blood vessels in you finger. There are lots of useful biometrics useful as verifiers, that will reliably discriminate between a given individual and someone posing as him and are very fast. DNA just isn't one of them.

Exactly what a "fake SIN" is depends on what you want. Do you want to pay for a drink at stuffershack using you online account, do you want to get on a suborbital , or do you want to avoid having the jail in-processing unit figure out that you are not who you say you are when they run everything? Each of these requires a lot more work than the one before. And duplicate biometrics will certainly raise a big flag at either the airport or the jail.
Draconis
QUOTE (Dale @ Nov 4 2006, 08:27 PM)
SURGE : BOO!

And other than Hatchetman, what's happened to all the major signature Shadowrun characters since the last decade? There really needs to be some sort of headcount or something to see who's still alive and in the biz.
Sally? Ghost? Sam? Kham? Wolfgang?

What you want a VH1 special, "where are they now"?
And I like SURGE damn it.
eidolon
SR's "rampant illiteracy": BOOOOO
Different life spans for races as silly ways of saying "look look they're different": BOOOO
Ork litters: BOOOO
IEs: BOOOOO
The presentation of certain entities as Invincible Plot Hammers™ and all-knowing all-powerful you can't beat them (Johnsons, dragons, etc): BOOOO
meta-human variants: BOOOOOO
several things about SR4: BOOOOOOO


gotta go back to titan quest now
smile.gif
fistandantilus4.0
Glad you got that off your chest finally? biggrin.gif
jklst14
QUOTE (Dale)

Sally? Ghost? Sam? Kham? Wolfgang?

There's a reference to Kham on Page 99 of Runner Havens in the shadowtalk by Fatima. Basically, Kham's retired and their is a group called the "Bot'Kham" (translates as Sons of Kham) who operate as a cell for the Creeps.
Grinder
QUOTE (eidolon)
Different life spans for races as silly ways of saying "look look they're different": BOOOO
The presentation of certain entities as Invincible Plot Hammers™ and all-knowing all-powerful you can't beat them (Johnsons, dragons, etc): BOOOO

What he said. And more:

AGS: BOOOO!!!!
Only one attribute to resist spells (honestly, who's using Countersopelling all the time): BOOO
Still no good ruling for cyber limbs: BOO!!

knasser
QUOTE (eidolon)

Different life spans for races as silly ways of saying "look look they're different": BOOOO


I don't get that. Why is it silly? You want elves to have normal human lifespans? I see the aging differences being interesting role-playing opportunities.
mfb
what isn't?!
Triggerz
In no particular order:

- BP vs Karma cost inconsistencies.

- The fact that you reach the skill cap way too soon™.

- The cost of attributes relative to skills and skill groups.

- The cost of Improved Physical Attribute relative to cyberware or bioware.

- The Essence cost of Wired Reflexes relative to Synaptic Booster.

- No rules for dual-wielding melee combat in the BBB even though it includes the "Ambidextrous" quality.

- Ammo rules in general...

- The cost of Ally spirits.

- The fact that the SR4 core mechanics were not openly discussed in the community before becoming set in stone. (Yeah, I know, that one is probably not too realistic, but I can dream, right?)


In general though, I think the SR4 mechanics are significantly better than the SR3 rules, and I like pretty much all of the new fluff.
ChicagosFinest
You forgot to blame Steve Kesson and add your BBBBOOOOO!!!!!
Steak and Spirits
The ability for Magic to duplicate nearly everything that Technology accomplishes! BOOOOOOOOO!
PirateChef
QUOTE (eidolon)

The presentation of certain entities as Invincible Plot Hammers™ and all-knowing all-powerful you can't beat them (Johnsons, dragons, etc): BOOOO

I've never seen any of those as invincible, just well protected. Though they do like to portray themselves as invincible, helps to keep yourself alive.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (mfb)
what isn't?!

you took your sweet sweet time with that one, didn't you? silly.gif
ChicagosFinest
Lack of a new shadowbeat book with new and interesting plot hooks including KSAF... BBBBOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

(Yeah I'ma media whore, it was my major in college)
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
OH, and BBBBBOOOO about not hearing about Harlequin, His aprentise (I forget her name), or excalibur. BBBBOOOO!!!


Frosty has a bit of dialogue in Street Magic, she's totally there on page 12.

QUOTE
IEs: BOOOOO


Uh... can't help you there. BOOOOO!

wink.gif

-Frank
underaneonhalo
Hurray for hate!

deckers. BOOOO!
Ancients nearly wiping out the Halloweeners. BOOOO!
SURGE. BOOOO!
The lack of anything about SURGE in 4th. BOOOO!
The lack of shadow talk in 3rd. BOOOO!
The art in 3rd. BOOOO!
3rd. BOOOO!
Never getting to play because I'm always the bloody GM. BOOOO!
The MIA skull logo. HELLA BOOOO!

And yeah, the Crimson Crush were around back in 2nd, probably 1st as well, check out the Seattle Sourcebook.
Konsaki
QUOTE (underaneonhalo)
SURGE. BOOOO!
The lack of anything about SURGE in 4th. BOOOO!

So you didnt like SURGE but are mad that they didnt put it in 4th?
It doesnt make sense! BOOO!
Steak and Spirits
Re: Surge in 4th Edition.

QUOTE
Page 13, SR4

...Copyright© 2005 WizKids Inc. All
Rights Reserved. Shadowrun, Matrix,
and WK Games are registered trademarks
and/or trademarks of WizKids,
Inc. in the United States and/or other
countries. Sorry about SURGE. 
That was some pretty stupid shit,
wasn't it?  We were really pretty
fucking high.  Seriously.  Our
Bad.  Won't happen again.
  No part of
this work may be reproduced, stored
in a retrieval system,or transmitted in
any form or by any means, without the
prior permission in writing of the
Copyright Owner, nor be otherwise
circulated in any form otherthan that
in which it is published.


They just tried to sneak it under the radar.
nezumi
Heh, that got a chuckle out of me, S&S.

4th edition -
Technomancers
The loss of the whole shaman/mage dichotomy
Skill caps
That funny dwarf on the cover
The SR4 dice mechanic (that's a big one, I know, but that's why I'm going to play SR3 with 4 for flavor).

3rd edition -
Most of ritual sorcery
Magic creating matter
The lack of balance between magic and cyber
The difficulty of integrating riggers and deckers into a team
The lack of full borg options/overpriced cyberlimbs/lack of obvious and non-combat cyber

I guess I really want CP2020 with SR's dice mechanics and about half of SR's magic (plus the cool background).
underaneonhalo
QUOTE (Konsaki)
QUOTE (underaneonhalo @ Nov 6 2006, 05:06 AM)
SURGE. BOOOO!
The lack of anything about SURGE in 4th. BOOOO!

So you didnt like SURGE but are mad that they didnt put it in 4th?
It doesnt make sense! BOOO!

SURGE was pretty silly but ignoring a piece of canon is just stupid. They only mention it twice in passing in the BBB.
Ben
what's the matter with SURGE? it's fun.
cool.gif
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Ben @ Nov 5 2006, 10:25 PM)
what's the matter with SURGE? it's fun.
cool.gif

people don't like it when fun intrudes on their grim and gritty cyberpunk...

that, and the kitty cat interview in the book screamed manga kitten to oh so many people on this forum. and at the time people was already afraid that shadowrun would turn into some kind of camp americanized manga bastard child...
Steak and Spirits
QUOTE (nezumi)
I guess I really want CP2020 with SR's dice mechanics and about half of SR's magic (plus the cool background).

Word.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
QUOTE (Ben @ Nov 5 2006, 10:25 PM)
what's the matter with SURGE? it's fun.
cool.gif

people don't like it when fun intrudes on their grim and gritty cyberpunk...

that, and the kitty cat interview in the book screamed manga kitten to oh so many people on this forum. and at the time people was already afraid that shadowrun would turn into some kind of camp americanized manga bastard child...

Oh, come on. Doesn't anyone remember the SR manga that was posted a while back with the creepy hermetic mage that looked sort of like a psychopathic yaoi villain? Mangaized SR can be good. (Also, see the Japanese Sega CD videogame.)

Nah, SURGE was fun.



As for wiping out Crimson Crush by flooding the Barrens with BTLs, that would be too close to the incident where the FBI hired the Columbian drug cartels to flood the ghettos with cheap cocaine in an attempt to neutralize the Black Panther Party for Self Defense.


No rules for triple-wilding by characters with prehensile tails. BOOOO
hyzmarca
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Nov 5 2006, 04:31 PM)
QUOTE (Ben @ Nov 5 2006, 10:25 PM)
what's the matter with SURGE? it's fun.
cool.gif

people don't like it when fun intrudes on their grim and gritty cyberpunk...

that, and the kitty cat interview in the book screamed manga kitten to oh so many people on this forum. and at the time people was already afraid that shadowrun would turn into some kind of camp americanized manga bastard child...

Oh, come on. Doesn't anyone remember the SR manga that was posted a while back with the creepy hermetic mage that looked sort of like a psychopathic yaoi villain? Mangaized SR can be good. (Also, see the Japanese Sega CD videogame.)

Nah, SURGE was fun.



As for wiping out Crimson Crush by flooding the Barrens with BTLs, that would be too close to the incident where the FBI hired the Columbian drug cartels to flood the ghettos with cheap cocaine in an attempt to neutralize the Black Panther Party for Self Defense.


No rules for triple-wilding by characters with prehensile tails or quadruple-wielding for characters who didn't get their meat-arms removed before their cyberarms were installed. BOOOO
Fortune
QUOTE (underaneonhalo)
Ancients nearly wiping out the Halloweeners ... again! Yaaaayyyyyyyy!

Fixed! wink.gif
Dissonance
All of this talk about SURGE reminds me of the Surge commercials in the, like, mid-90s. Man, but those were some stupid commercials.

Oh. What do I not like about SR4?

Well, if I had to pick something, I suppose it'd be cyberlimbs. I want my fullborg to be useful and actually obtainable.
eidolon
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Glad you got that off your chest finally?


Off my chest? Nah. I gripe about them all the time. smile.gif Actually, kidding aside, these are the ones that have come up in threads recently, so I thought it'd be funny to put them all in one place since there was a thread for it.

QUOTE (knasser)
I don't get that. Why is it silly? You want elves to have normal human lifespans? I see the aging differences being interesting role-playing opportunities.


1st question: Because in other canon, metahumans are shown to all be human beings at the core. While many people have pointed to "RL differences in age spans", nobody has ever shown any evidence that I found credible enough that these differences were products of genetics rather than circumstance and environment for me to buy it. If the differences were ten years for orks, which was linked to poverty, I might buy it. But "orks live shorter amounts of times..um..because they're ORKS!" has never cut it for me. I'm no expert, but that's how I see it. (And no, wikipedia and google don't make one an "expert".wink.gif)

2nd question: Yes. Because they're essentially human beings, and the difference in structure is, in my games (and in some canon references that I'm too lazy to go looking for atm), akin to the differences in RL ethnicities. Elven ears = african-american (or whatever the current "PC" term is) skin tone. Not "elves are happy magicky and live a hundred years cause Tolkien said so." (I'm aware he wasn't the originator.)

Where you see opportunity for role playing, I see silly hold-overs and throwbacks to too much cookie cutter fantasy fiction. Different takes, is all. smile.gif

And I said this in another recent thread, but I'll add it here:

The more I learn about how ED is the reason for so many things that I think are silly in SR:

Shadowrun connections to ED: BOOOOOOO!

(Besides, this thread is just for fun. I don't think anyone here is trying to say "you shouldn't like this either". smile.gif)

edit:
QUOTE (underaneonhalo)
SURGE was pretty silly but ignoring a piece of canon is just stupid. They only mention it twice in passing in the BBB.


Are you kidding? Man, never play in my games. You'd beat me with a BBB over how little I actually consider "canon" to matter in some areas. smile.gif
Steak and Spirits
QUOTE (eidolon)
Shadowrun connections to ED: BOOOOOOO!


!!!

How could I forget that!

Here here! BoOOoooOOOOOOO!
ChicagosFinest
QUOTE (Steak and Spirits @ Nov 5 2006, 03:49 PM)
Re: Surge in 4th Edition.

QUOTE
Page 13, SR4

...Copyright© 2005 WizKids Inc. All
Rights Reserved. Shadowrun, Matrix,
and WK Games are registered trademarks
and/or trademarks of WizKids,
Inc. in the United States and/or other
countries. Sorry about SURGE. 
That was some pretty stupid shit,
wasn't it?  We were really pretty
fucking high.  Seriously.  Our
Bad.  Won't happen again.
  No part of
this work may be reproduced, stored
in a retrieval system,or transmitted in
any form or by any means, without the
prior permission in writing of the
Copyright Owner, nor be otherwise
circulated in any form otherthan that
in which it is published.


They just tried to sneak it under the radar.

For trying to sneek it under the radar and for not having enough peer presure to take out a bad idea (which I love) out at the time BBBBBOOOOOOO!!!!!

BookWyrm
Steak & Spirits, that wasn't funny. SURGE wasn't all that bad.
Fortune
QUOTE (BookWyrm)
SURGE wasn't all that bad.

It just wasn't all that good either. wink.gif
maeel
4th Vehicle stats/rules, especially acceleration & speed: BOOOOO!

Still unrealistic weapon and physiological impact model: BOOOOO!

No weapon and vehicle design rules: boo.
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