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wind_in_the_stones
So how do you keep your cyberware offline? If you have it shut down to wireless, how do you access it? You've got to have it hooked up to a datajack. Or maybe a jackport in an eyeball. Just keep that in mind. It's really only a role-playing thing - if they don't have 'ware that's wireless-active, ask them where their jacks are.
Lord Ben
It's hooked up to your spinal cord!
Lord Ben
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
I suppose I'll find out tomorrow where my GM stands on this, but I'm definately thinking he's going to fall on the side of allowing hackers to do more than they should be able to do. That's the game's stance on hackers in general because without it, they're not really very useful.

I've always felt the DM should let the hackers do a lot, but not mroe than is reasonable. Spoof a command to the gun to eject a clip, have the car being chased turn on the airbags, whatever.

But cyberware hooked up to my legs IMHO is offlimits.

If you allow that stuff it leads to people turning off wireless on lots of devices and using other solutions. Then pretty soon none of the runners equipment is wireless and people claim to keep everything off because their paranoid.

I find it's better to embrace the gameworld and have cheeseburger wrappers that submit an RFID tag and wear clothes-in-a-can from the vending machine next to my apartment than to be super paranoid. Then again the DM and hacker in the game stick to reasonable hacks when attacking the party.
wind_in_the_stones
I say let 'em mess with your leg. You can have it rebooted in a turn. And while he's going through the effort of locating and hacking your leg, there are far more dangerous things he could be doing to you, but isn't.
jervinator
Makes me want to get a cyber penis so hackers can play with that while I shoot up the place. "Hey, that's not a leg!"
Charon
QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Dec 10 2006, 12:00 AM)
So how do you keep your cyberware offline? If you have it shut down to wireless, how do you access it?

The wireless connection of the cyberware isn't there to allow the user to control the cyber.

It's to allow the cyberware technician to access the cyberware when he wants to do maintenance or a diagnosis.

It's for the surgeon who needs to locate your implant before he operates.

It's for you to transfer information from your cyberwares into a commlink or other data storage (Say, a recording of what you are looking at through your cybereyes).

But controlling the cyberware is done through Direct Neural Input (DNI). Basically, it's your brain that's connected to the cyber.

So you can shut down the Wireless connection. And turn it up. At will through DNI. And indeed, the wireless function of any cyberware is never continually useful so security conscious people can't help but turning it off most of the time.
Kremlin KOA
QUOTE (jervinator)
Makes me want to get a cyber penis so hackers can play with that while I shoot up the place. "Hey, that's not a leg!"

Just for you, I shall code an impotence virus that overrides the DNI and wireless control systems... you may kill me, but you lose your GF, and your reputation
Faradon
So even if you shut your cyberware down to wireless... if they hack into your comlink, can they still spoof commands to turn off your cybereyes, change the IFF on your smartgun backwards? Tell you that your teammate just died by flatlining his vitals on your display?
Charon
QUOTE (Faradon @ Dec 11 2006, 02:07 PM)
So even if you shut your cyberware down to wireless... if they hack into your comlink, can they still spoof commands to turn off your cybereyes, change the IFF on your smartgun backwards? Tell you that your teammate just died by flatlining his vitals on your display?

No.

The implant's connection is shut down. It is not emitting wireless signal, it is not connected to your commlink, it is just shut down.

Right now, as of this moment, you can hack my computer by connecting to my Internet service provider and then to my computer. I'm obviously connected.

In a few minutes you won't be able to because I will shut down my internet connection. My computer will still be open and allowing me to calculate stuff at superhuman speed. But it will be hacker proof because they can't connect to my computer if I shut down my internet connection.

I don't understand the confusion.

---

Actually, the flatlining of your teammate's vitals on your display can always be hacked. Obviously this is info that comes from your team mate and is received probably by your commlink or any other device. That device wireless capabilities have to be on, the range has to long enough to reach your teammate. For sure, it can be hacked.

The cyber eyes don't have to be. Shut down any connection. There's not much point. If you need your team mate to see what you are doing because you are in commando mode, bring a gun camera or any other camera you carry on you. That camera will be hackable but at least you won't go blind. And losing such a camera is a small price to learning there is a hacker overseeing the battlefield. Send your own hacker in a serach and destroy mission. If he's running hot you might even be able to kill him.

Faradon
I'm not an expert in the rules and I think that my confusion comes in where your comlink (especially if cyberware) is almost always in use... you and your team use it for targetting purposes, overlays, imaging, etc.

So the comlink is almost always on, and connected via wireless to the rest of your party. So even if you turn off some of your "wireless connection" from a cyber-device... how do you turn it back on? via your comlink right? If not, how do you turn off / on the "wireless capabilities" of your cybereyes / smartgun link?

So if someone hacks your comlink... they technically could be able to hack other things on you that don't have a physical on/off switch...

So unless you, and all of your team turn off your comlink... there's always an "internet connection" for a hacker to get in on.

RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Faradon @ Dec 11 2006, 04:37 PM)
So even if you turn off some of your "wireless connection" from a cyber-device... how do you turn it back on? via your comlink right? If not, how do you turn off / on the "wireless capabilities" of your cybereyes / smartgun link?

Direct Neural Interface. Those wires from the implant directly into your brain that let you do things like change a device's mode as a free action.

Alternately, if you have a datajack, you can plug a cable from your commlink into the datajack to be able to send a "Turn on Wireless" command from your commlink to your cyber (Unless you specifically request otherwise at the time of implant, any electronic cyber other than the data lock is assumed to have wired connections to all other cyber in your body.)
Charon
QUOTE (Faradon @ Dec 11 2006, 04:37 PM)
So unless you, and all of your team turn off your comlink... there's always an "internet connection" for a hacker to get in on.

No. As the previous poster said, the "cyber switch" is purely mental and can't be hacked.

Well, not unless the hacker is also a surgeon and a cybertechnician.

I guess it is confusing for people who never played previous editions of the game, but Street Samurais have been switching cyber on and off years before they carried a commlink.
Moon-Hawk
I agree with RunnerPaul (edit: and Charon). You either (de)activate the wireless with a DNI or (in the case of external hardware) a physical switch.
If the wireless is still on but you've told it not to talk to anything except a preapproved device giving it an "on" command, that's not deactivating the wireless, it's just a combination of hidden mode and a device subscription.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Charon)
Well, not unless the hacker is also a surgeon and a cybertechnician.

Or a hypnotist.
Charon
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Dec 11 2006, 04:47 PM)
QUOTE (Charon @ Dec 11 2006, 04:43 PM)
Well, not unless the hacker is also a surgeon and a cybertechnician.

Or a hypnotist.

Ooh, or a mage with mind control. Good point.

"Magic Joe, mind control that guy and force him to activate the wireless connections of all his cyberware!"
"I could do that. Or I could get him to shoot his friends instead."
"Okay, but after I shut down his wired reflex and smartlink!"

biggrin.gif
Faradon
So, assuming again that a character has only Cybereyes, a Smartgun link, and a Comlink...

(also I apologize if we are hijacking this thread with these questions)

and I want to turn off my cybereyes / smargun link's wireless because I'm a paranoid freak afraid of hackers at every turn...

what, if any, functionality do I lose?

Can I still share target information, gun camera info, etc. via the shadowrun team's "LAN" via comlink? or do you lose a bunch of "shared" functionality by turning off your devices wireless capabilities?
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Faradon)
So, assuming again that a character has only Cybereyes, a Smartgun link, and a Comlink...


Ok, by smartgun link I'm going to guess that you mean the smartlink cybereye accessory.

QUOTE
and I want to turn off my cybereyes  / smargun link's wireless because I'm a paranoid freak afraid of hackers at every turn...

what, if any, functionality do I lose?


Turning off wireless to your smartlink-adapted gun, your commlink, and your cybereyes w/smartlink accessory would make you lose all smartlink-functionality, unless you were to provide alternate means of transferring data from the gun to the cybereyes. It's quite easy to do so, though: add skinlinking to your gun and commlink, get a datajack, and run cable from the commlink to the datajack. (Note: if your GM allows cyberware to be skinlink-adapted, the datajack is not needed, just skinlink the cybereyes.)

QUOTE
Can I still share target information, gun camera info, etc. via the shadowrun team's "LAN" via comlink?  or do you lose a bunch of "shared" functionality by turning off your devices wireless capabilities?


If wireless is the only means of passing data from your devices to your teammate's devices, then turning that off will impact your functionality, yes. Note however, that in the setup described above, with datajack cable and skinlinking connecting the peripherals to the commlink, you may consider leaving the commlink's wireless on.

Commlinks typically have high firewall ratings, and the computing horsepower to run the software that can detect and alert the user to hacking attempts. By using wired/skinlinked connections between the commlink and the other devices, you ensure that anyone who wants to hack those other devices has to go through the commlink first.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Charon @ Dec 11 2006, 04:43 PM)
QUOTE (Faradon @ Dec 11 2006, 04:37 PM)
So unless you, and all of your team turn off your comlink... there's always an "internet connection" for a hacker to get in on.

No. As the previous poster said, the "cyber switch" is purely mental and can't be hacked.

Well, not unless the hacker is also a surgeon and a cybertechnician.

I guess it is confusing for people who never played previous editions of the game, but Street Samurais have been switching cyber on and off years before they carried a commlink.

If your comlink is online, everything connected to the commlink can be hacked. That includes Cybereys that can recieve visual feed from the comlink.

Why? The commlink controls your DNI. You can emulate any DNI using the commlink.

See my SGP for details.
Charon
QUOTE (Faradon @ Dec 11 2006, 04:51 PM)
and I want to turn off my cybereyes  / smargun link's wireless because I'm a paranoid freak afraid of hackers at every turn...

You're not a freak if the danger is real. Which it is!

Concerning your question, obviously any sharing of info to team mates by a device whose wireless connection has been shut down is impossible.

So you decide which is more important for any given piece of tech (a lot of the things you named has nothing to do with cyberware, btw).

It is usually very obvious.

Wired reflex. What can you possibly gain by keeping these accessible through wireless? Nothing. Shut it down.

Your gun camera? What can you possibly gain by having a gun camera that isn't transmiting? Keep it on.

Cybereyes? Well if you are using a gun camera anyway, what could you possibly gain by also broadcasting what your eyes are seeing? And obviously if you're eyes are shut down, it's slightly more annoying than if your gun camera is hacked. But if it's essential to receiving info from the gun, you could lose that. But there are way to work around that...

See? It's all fairly obvious when you think about it. Standard cost (risk) /benefit analysis. Go with the opton that afford you the most advantage at the lesser cost.
djinni
QUOTE (Charon)
You're not a freak if the danger is real. Which it is!

um...yeah are you online when you made that post? cuz you know there is a very real danger you'll get hacked...
QUOTE
Concerning your question, obviously any sharing of info to team mates by a device whose wireless connection has been shut down is impossible.

right except I have all of my devices set to reboot at 0.05 second interval so you shut it off and 0.05 seconds later it's back on...fancy that...

QUOTE
Wired reflex.  What can you possibly gain by keeping these accessible through wireless?  Nothing.  Shut it down.

lesse it's malfunctioning, isn't working correctly due to the lastest patch not being automatically downloaded...sounds alot like windows doesn't it? if you call that nothing then I'm real curious about what something is.

QUOTE
Your gun camera?  What can you possibly gain by having a gun camera that isn't transmiting?  Keep it on. 

yep definately

QUOTE
See?  It's all fairly obvious when you think about it.  Standard cost (risk) /benefit analysis.  Go with the opton that afford you the most advantage at the lesser cost.

or you could just do what I do, keep everything in "hidden" mode. cuz you know I'd much rather a hacker spend three rounds hacking my cybereyes than anything else...seriously...
Fortune
QUOTE (Serbitar)
The commlink controls your DNI. You can emulate any DNI using the commlink.

Why would your Commlink control your DNI? People have been switching on and off their various 'wares for years without benefit of a Commlink.
Charon
QUOTE (Serbitar)
If your comlink is online, everything connected to the commlink can be hacked. That includes Cybereys that can recieve visual feed from the comlink.

Why? The commlink controls your DNI. You can emulate any DNI using the commlink.

See my SGP for details.

If you have turned off your cybereyes connection, the commlink isn't connected to the cybereyes. It can't send any signals to the eyes, they are not receiving.

It's as if you were trying to hack a PC with no connection whatsoever to the net.

djinni
QUOTE (Fortune)
Why would your Commlink control your DNI? People have been switching on and off their various 'wares for years without benefit of a Commlink.

that was pre crash 2.0 after the crrash all wires have been stolen by aliens and everything is wireless now...
Charon
QUOTE (djinni @ Dec 11 2006, 05:29 PM)
QUOTE (Charon @ Dec 11 2006, 05:17 PM)
You're not a freak if the danger is real.  Which it is! 

um...yeah are you online when you made that post? cuz you know there is a very real danger you'll get hacked...

You do realize that I'm not an hardened criminal trying to infiltrate high security compound, do you?

No one has a vested interest in hacking me or otherwise cause me harm.

If you are runner, it's a different story.
Fortune
QUOTE (djinni @ Dec 12 2006, 09:29 AM)
right except I have all of my devices set to reboot at 0.05 second interval so you shut it off and 0.05 seconds later it's back on...fancy that...

Doesn't rebooting take a certain amount of time?

QUOTE
QUOTE
Wired reflex.  What can you possibly gain by keeping these accessible through wireless?  Nothing.  Shut it down.

lesse it's malfunctioning, isn't working correctly due to the lastest patch not being automatically downloaded...sounds alot like windows doesn't it? if you call that nothing then I'm real curious about what something is.


If it's malfunctioning, then you can turn wireless on in order to access the diagnostics (only) program, tuning it off again when the malfunction is corrected.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Dec 12 2006, 09:14 AM)
The commlink controls your DNI. You can emulate any DNI using the commlink.

Why would your Commlink control your DNI? People have been switching on and off their various 'wares for years without benefit of a Commlink.

Because Internal Commlink or Datajack or Trodes provide DNI. If one of them is hacked, you can hack DNI controlled devices.
Charon
QUOTE (djinni)
QUOTE
See?  It's all fairly obvious when you think about it.  Standard cost (risk) /benefit analysis.  Go with the opton that afford you the most advantage at the lesser cost.

or you could just do what I do, keep everything in "hidden" mode. cuz you know I'd much rather a hacker spend three rounds hacking my cybereyes than anything else...seriously...

Unless we are dealing with a combat hacker, no, I'd rather he didn't hack my wares.

If you are dealing with a typical security hacker (which is far more likely than dealing with an opposing runner team) who realizes there is a physical breach, hacking you if you made yourself open to that is one of the efficient use of his time.

What else is he gonna do? Shoot at you? There are guards and FRT team doing that and far better than he could. Control drone and security measures? There's a security rigger doing that.

Hacking you is as good as it gets for him. And I don't want him doing that. Seriously.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Dec 11 2006, 05:14 PM)
If your comlink is online, everything connected to the commlink can be hacked. That includes Cybereys that can recieve visual feed from the comlink.

Why? The commlink controls your DNI. You can emulate any DNI using the commlink.

See my SGP for details.

If you have turned off your cybereyes connection, the commlink isn't connected to the cybereyes. It can't send any signals to the eyes, they are not receiving.

It's as if you were trying to hack a PC with no connection whatsoever to the net.

You can not turn of the connection between your DNI providing device and your cybereys. You would not be able to turn it on again, as you would have just severed the connection of this device to your brain.

If you hack the device that is providing you with DNI, you can turn on/off every DNI device. Thats unavoidable.

If your eyes are not recieving DNI, then they can no longer recieve DNI commands to turn DNI on again. Its as easy as that.
Charon
QUOTE (Serbitar)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 11 2006, 05:33 PM)
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Dec 12 2006, 09:14 AM)
The commlink controls your DNI. You can emulate any DNI using the commlink.

Why would your Commlink control your DNI? People have been switching on and off their various 'wares for years without benefit of a Commlink.

Because Internal Commlink or Datajack or Trodes provide DNI. If one of them is hacked, you can hack DNI controlled devices.

But they can't be hacked if the connections are down. And if they are not down they can be hacked wether it's DNI or not.

I don't get the point.
Butterblume
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Because Internal Commlink or Datajack or Trodes provide DNI. If one of them is hacked, you can hack DNI controlled devices.

I don't think so.

Every DNI Device is connected to the brain, not to other DNI Devices.

Why would your cybereyes need wireless to your datajack to transmit data, if they could do it through DNI?
Charon
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Dec 11 2006, 05:44 PM)
You can not turn of the connection between your DNI providing device and your cybereys. You would not be able to turn it on again, as you would have just severed the connection of this device to your brain.

If you hack the device that is providing you with DNI, you can turn on/off every DNI device. Thats unavoidable.

You can't hack the device sending the DNI if it's not receiving outside input.

It's as simple as that.

DNI is basically electric signal from your brain. The Commlink ain't connecting to that.
Fortune
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Dec 12 2006, 09:39 AM)
Because Internal Commlink or Datajack or Trodes provide DNI. If one of them is hacked, you can hack DNI controlled devices.

Devices ... maybe. Cyber ... no! Cyber does not need to be connected to the Commlink to be DNI-enabled, nor does it automatically connect by default to the Commlink if you stick in a datajack.
Serbitar
@butterblume:
DNI is only for mental commands, not a traffic highway.

@Charon:
Please review the devices in SR4 RAW that provide you with DNI. DNI is not just a direct interface between e.g. brain and cybereys, its brain - DNI device - cybereys.
If the DNI device is hacked it can emulate mental commands.

QUOTE ("SR4 p. 318")

A sim module must be accessed
via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted
commlink, etc.).



Serbitar
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 11 2006, 05:56 PM)
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Dec 12 2006, 09:39 AM)
Because Internal Commlink or Datajack or Trodes provide DNI. If one of them is hacked, you can hack DNI controlled devices.

Devices ... maybe. Cyber ... no! Cyber does not need to be connected to the Commlink to be DNI-enabled, nor does it automatically connect by default to the Commlink if you stick in a datajack.

Yes to the former , no to the latter, which is your interpretation.
Which, of course, makes my opinion also an interpretation.
Charon
QUOTE (Serbitar)
@Charon:
Please review the devices in SR4 RAW that provide you with DNI. DNI is not just a direct interface between e.g. brain and cybereys, its brain - DNI device - cybereys.
If the DNI device is hacked it can emulate mental commands.

Yes, and that's where I say no : I don't accept that the DNI device can be hacked by a commlink.

Commlink would try to connect to the DNI device by using a wireless signal. No matter which programmation language the commlink would try, it wouldn't work because the DNI device isn't (shouldn't) be able to receive the info.

Exactly like a computer that has no connection to internet.

It's brain - DNI device.

The commlink doesn't fit in there.

If it's brain - DNI device - Cybereyes, then the hacker can connect to the eyes. But if they have been shut down he can't and see no reason to believe he can hack the DNI interface if it has no wireless interface functionality (and its need none).
Charon
As an aside, I would point out that the FAQ does rule that turning off your cyberware's wireless functionality essentially shields them from the hacker.

Serbitar
I see your reasoning, but I would say that the cybereys can be hacked by exactly that route which is used to turn the cybereys on again, the DNI. If you can somehow gain axxess to a DNI, like an internal commlink, datajack and so on, you could do the trick. Of course you can turn their wireless off also. But then you have zero interaction with wifi.

Edit: BTW, the commlink does not hack the DNI with the Commlink, the internal Commlink IS a DNI, as is a Datajack, as are Trodes. My point is that you can hack these and issue DNI commands using their DNI capability.
Lord Ben
That would mean you can force the spinal cord, nerves, etc to send messages. You might rule one way, but I think it defies the intent of the rules.
jervinator
I just had a mental image - Robocop becoming the puppet of a bored 12-year-old in Latvia.....
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Please review the devices in SR4 RAW that provide you with DNI. DNI is not just a direct interface between e.g. brain and cybereys, its brain - DNI device - cybereys.

"In addition to wireless functionality, most cyberware devices are equipped with a direct neural interface (DNI) that allows the user to mentally activate and control their functions." -p.330, SR4

So yes, actually it is just brain->cybereyes.
Ryu
I think that DNI is now only an interface technology, not a device. The notion of one connected DNI is an interpretation from the SR3-continuum (still a possible interpretation. Ponder the consequences before you decide)
Kesslan
QUOTE (jervinator)
I just had a mental image - Robocop becoming the puppet of a bored 12-year-old in Latvia.....

Yeah, which is why for the most part so many people are arguing that you couldnt really hack the functionality of cyberware. Personally I agree with this stance for the most part. And let me explain what I mean by saying 'for the most part'.

Cyberlimbs, internal airtanks etc. Direct physical connection to nerve endings. Somewhere along the line you have this. This is basically an end all, be all hardwiring to the physical flesh and blood body. There is absolutely no sane reason why you would ever make this something that can be totally and techncially thus permanelty overridden by wireless commands. It's insanity. I mean if your going to go get the limb checked out etc, I could see some sort of physical switch, some actual physical hardware interaction in the form of a datajack jumper or what ever that migth lock out the nerve impulses. And maybe purely for convinence you make it work under wireless.

But unless there was some half way point and the doc totally screws you there is no reason to allow actual CONTROL of that cyber via anything else than DNI, which inturn is directly controled by your nervous system, and that by your brain. Reading diagnostics off it is one thing (And really what I see as the usual application of wireless enabled cyber). It's a whole other ballgame to have it actually setup to do anything but transmit that data, and that given that it's a signal 0 system is limited to a maximum of 3 meters by game system.

Cybereyes and somewhat similar devices are -slightly- different. For the most part control is again DNI. HOWEVER they can (and do) infact ultimately interact with a wireless device even if it's just your comlink and everything (Smartguns included) is hardwired/skinlinked etc. So assuming you use the usual wireless enabled smartgun, wirelessly it's taking in data from that source. YOu could technically hack it, but again your dealing with that 3m radius. Thats not an easy thing to get into or maintain techncially speaking at least. And certainly not doable by any means that cant be discovered and dealt with.

I mean ultimately your cybereyes show you what your perceptions are in your AR etc. I could easily see a hacker messing with that under any circumstances, since the AR feed is comming through the comlink itself, and the commlink is ultimately wirelessly connected to said matrix. So maybe if you were unawares a decker could start messing with your eyes, but then you just need to switch off the comlink, or at worst switch off the wireless interface of the cybereyes and bingo! THeir fully under your control again in a matter of seconds.

Otherwise, as Jervinator suggests, you wind up with robocop being controled by a pimply 12 year old in Latvia and goes on a killing rampage.
Garrowolf
I think you need to step back and think in terms of where is actual decision makin occuring on the chain of devices. You could have a wire that goes out to all parts of your body but the actual control device would be in one or two places. Think of it like a light and a light switch. It doesn't matter how far out the wires go, you only have to think about the switch.

I think of the DNI as a set of wires and the connectors to the nerves on site. The decision is occuring closer to the brain. You could have all the processors along the way that you want but that doesn't mean actual control is occuring there. It would be like transformers or noise filters or such. Now if the DNI connects a human reaction (move the arm) with a cyberware version of exactly the same then there is no reason for any kind of computer in the route.

Now things might be different if you are talking about smartlinks and such. Some things would have no interface (all DNI), some things would have split interface (some DNI and some computer controls, and some things would have just computer controls.

If you have a way of hacking in to a person's cyberware then you should be limited to only computer controlled systems.

HAving a wireless signal coming from an object doesn't mean that it is controlled by it. I have a radio antenna on my truck but it's not radio controlled. Wireless is just a type of radio.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
That would mean you can force the spinal cord, nerves, etc to send messages. You might rule one way, but I think it defies the intent of the rules.

I would not go so far, but I would say that you can acces DNI devices like cybereys with other DNI devices, like an internal commlink or a datajack using DNI commands.

@Paul:

I know this, thats why I answered "yes" to

QUOTE (Fortune)

Cyber does not need to be connected to the Commlink to be DNI-enabled
Garrowolf
I would like to restate that I think that allowing the hacking of cyberware is very bad for game play. It takes a central character type to cyberpunk and makes them even more difficult to play. I think that it makes it much more frustrating for those players without adding anything useful to the game.

They have simultaniously made it so that everyone can be a hacker of high level of ability by buying hacking programs AND made it where only one character type is really disadvantaged by it. Being able to hack into each others commlinks is one thing because it effects everyone. Being able to take away even partial control over cybered characters and just cybered characters is cruel game design.

Cybered characters have already been limited in various ways in this edition. They are realistically more noticable to scanners. They are already limited by essence and no magic. I have no problems with this because it is based on balence. Allowing cybered characters be hacked by so many does not improve balence. It gimps them.

I know that people keep on saying that it is not really a problem becase the signal rating is 0 but I can think of several easy ways to defeat this.

Stand behind someone in line.
Put a microdrone that is acting as a signal relay on them.
Have your agent hack them while you talk to them.
Have a mage use magic fingers to put a drone or relay on them when they are not looking.
Wait till they are standing under neath the wifi transmitter at a traffic light.
Hack their commlink from a distance and then use IT to hack into your unconnected cyberware.

Then you have them pull out a gun and shoot a cop in the middle of downtown, after you have changed their car access codes so it wont pick him up. Or you have it pick him up and take him to the police locked inside.

Or you simply have all of their cyberware broadcast it's diagnotics and turn off YOUR ability to turn it back off. Do this while passing close to a cop or a police drone and they are on the run.

Allowing hackers to hack into cyberware is mean.
Serbitar
True, I get your point. I also think that the reasoning from you, Kesslan, Charon and Paul is very good.

I think it is a good option to restrict cyberware hacking to devices that are recieving sensory input (like cybereys, ears) at the moment, because they will necessarily be connected to the wireless to get their input from there.

Tehn you would ahve the choice, as Charon put it, to get the benefits from the sensory input of AR and be hackable (concerning these input devices) or turn the connection of.

But an internal commlink, or anything that provides a simlink, is still extremely dangerous, because anyone that hacks in can controll all your senses at least as long as you turn the wirelss conection of the commlink of. (And of course a good hacker would not just turn you blind, but introduce subtely wrong information, like editing your friend with an enemy so you shoot him without knowing and so on).
kigmatzomat
QUOTE (Serbitar)
If your comlink is online, everything connected to the commlink can be hacked. That includes Cybereys that can recieve visual feed from the comlink.

Why? The commlink controls your DNI. You can emulate any DNI using the commlink.


Ummm, no.

DNI is Direct Neural Interface. If it requires a comm, it isn't Direct. Matter of fact, it wouldn't be Neural either. Cybereyes are directly interfaced to the optic nerves. Cyberlegs are tied to the sciatic nerve trunks in the lower back. Cybereyes and cyberlegs use different DNIs for obvious reasons.

Comms can talk to cyber with active wireless or skinlink. Comms can talk to cyber tied to a datajack (headware memory, image link, internal comm, etc) via a fiber optic cable.

Internal Comms have their own Direct Neural Interface to allow the brain to give it instructions. AFAIK, internal comms also require imagelink to provide text data and cyberears/earbuds to transmit audio data. An internal comm would be tied to cyberears, internal imagelink, memory, datajack, etc but through a direct point-to-point connection or through another hub (like a pre-existing datajack).
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Dec 14 2006, 11:10 AM)
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Dec 11 2006, 05:14 PM)
If your comlink is online, everything connected to the commlink can be hacked. That includes Cybereys that can recieve visual feed from the comlink.

Why? The commlink controls your DNI. You can emulate any DNI using the commlink.


Ummm, no.

DNI is Direct Neural Interface. If it requires a comm, it isn't Direct. Matter of fact, it wouldn't be Neural either. Cybereyes are directly interfaced to the optic nerves. Cyberlegs are tied to the sciatic nerve trunks in the lower back. Cybereyes and cyberlegs use different DNIs for obvious reasons.

Comms can talk to cyber with active wireless or skinlink. Comms can talk to cyber tied to a datajack (headware memory, image link, internal comm, etc) via a fiber optic cable.

Internal Comms have their own Direct Neural Interface to allow the brain to give it instructions. AFAIK, internal comms also require imagelink to provide text data and cyberears/earbuds to transmit audio data. An internal comm would be tied to cyberears, internal imagelink, memory, datajack, etc but through a direct point-to-point connection or through another hub (like a pre-existing datajack).

You're drawing false conclusions about what does what. The FAQ says that, unless you actively take steps to prevent it, most cyberware can be hacked through the commlink.

QUOTE (Matrix/Hacking FAQ)
Most cyberware has a direct neural interface, allowing the character to mentally access and control the implant, but wireless links are also included in case the character is unconscious or suffering from extreme trauma -- that way medtechs can easily detect implants and check them out. For example, you'd certainly want a medtech to know you have an internal air tank before they take a bone saw to your ribcage, so expect that implant to have a wireless link. Dermal plating, however, doesn't do much but sit there and make you tougher, and it's fairly obvious anyway, so it wouldn't be Someone who is extremely paranoid may insist on having any wireless links to their implants removed or turned off, but this will make care and maintenance more difficult, so the GM should apply appropriate consequences.


Bolding for emphasis
DireRadiant
My truck has a CB. Lots of trucks have a CB. Lots of truckers can talk to each other.

Now if only controlling that CB allowed me to drive the truck.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
My truck has a CB. Lots of trucks have a CB. Lots of truckers can talk to each other.

Now if only controlling that CB allowed me to drive the truck.

Except that, within the boundries of Shadowrun 4e, the CB can control the truck. You're trying to overlay actual reality over a roleplaying game that has dragons, cyborgs and elves. The only way to do that is to work within the rules provided, which say that most cyberware can be hacked unless you actively take the precautions to prevent it and thus suffer the consequences of those precautions.
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