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DireRadiant
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Dec 14 2006, 01:16 PM)
My truck has a CB. Lots of trucks have a CB. Lots of truckers can talk to each other.

Now if only controlling that CB allowed me to drive the truck.

Except that, within the boundries of Shadowrun 4e, the CB can control the truck. You're trying to overlay actual reality over a roleplaying game that has dragons, cyborgs and elves. The only way to do that is to work within the rules provided, which say that most cyberware can be hacked unless you actively take the precautions to prevent it and thus suffer the consequences of those precautions.

So you are implying my cybernetic arm replacement cannot turn off the wireless because it's required to drive my cybernetic arm?

If I can turn off the wireless capability of my cybernetic arm and still use the cybernetic arm, then it is true that wireless is not required to operate my cybernetic arm. How does it get hacked then?
Konsaki
Magic! silly.gif
Ryu
We are at the core of many security issues here - all nodes seem to provide full function. If you give them standard device ratings, but limited functionality (as in a coffe e maker not being able to function as a relay station), many of those problems will go away.

In the comlink example the activation of DNI would be controlled by DNI only. No active-on-demand for the comlink. Same for any simlink.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
QUOTE (Lovesmasher @ Dec 14 2006, 02:29 PM)
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Dec 14 2006, 01:16 PM)
My truck has a CB. Lots of trucks have a CB. Lots of truckers can talk to each other.

Now if only controlling that CB allowed me to drive the truck.

Except that, within the boundries of Shadowrun 4e, the CB can control the truck. You're trying to overlay actual reality over a roleplaying game that has dragons, cyborgs and elves. The only way to do that is to work within the rules provided, which say that most cyberware can be hacked unless you actively take the precautions to prevent it and thus suffer the consequences of those precautions.

So you are implying my cybernetic arm replacement cannot turn off the wireless because it's required to drive my cybernetic arm?

If I can turn off the wireless capability of my cybernetic arm and still use the cybernetic arm, then it is true that wireless is not required to operate my cybernetic arm. How does it get hacked then?

That comes under 'taking precautions'. The FAQ tells GMs to have consequences for people who deactivate their wireless access. Example: If your cyberarm has a malfunction while your wireless access is off, your diagnostic program might not be able to give you an AR heads up (for example) and could rip itself off of your torso when you try to use it, causing serious physical harm and possibly death.
djinni
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
That comes under 'taking precautions'. The FAQ tells GMs to have consequences for people who deactivate their wireless access. Example: If your cyberarm has a malfunction while your wireless access is off, your diagnostic program might not be able to give you an AR heads up (for example) and could rip itself off of your torso when you try to use it, causing serious physical harm and possibly death.

we generally use the bad luck dice roll for each situation
roll 1d6 for each wirelles disconnected item on a 1 there is a minor malfunction that might go unoticed...multiple 1's increase the malfunctions.

example our "the face" character decided his smartlinks were "oldschool" and not wireless he had his smartlink aiming misaligned at one point and couldn't understand why he couldn't hit anything, until he went in for his monthly checkup.
Lovesmasher
People seem to think that wireless command without wireless control is impossible. No, you don't push buttons on your commlink to control your cyberarm, but you probably do use your commlink to run diagnostic programs. Diagnostic programs more than likely are the route through which hackers will shut down your cyberware. It doesn't say that in the book or in the FAQ, but it does say, more broadly, that hacking your cyberware through your commlink is possible in most circumstances.

Shutting things down is the most immediate and easy thing to do when you're hacking cyberware. Spoof a single command 'shut down' and it's done. Of course, then they'll probably just turn it back on, so you'll need to do something more complicated like spoof 'shut down for 10 minutes' which would probably give you a higher threshold. More than likely you can manipulate that threshold a little by adding justifications to your commands like 'shut down functioning for 10 minutes to run full system diagnostic'.

A command that most certainly exists in the diagnostic programs (for the safety of the cyberdoc working on you) and is probably the most cruel one to use while hacking would be 'disable DNI access'. Good luck turning that arm back on without help.
Lantzer
Um, your arm still has direct DNI links. Let the diagnostic program notify you directly. It's hardwired to you. Got a datajack? My characters use their datajack as a PAN hub. As alphaware, its a rating 4 device.

All making your arm wireless does for you (barring certain specialized components) is make it so your cybertech doesnt have to plug into it when you go in for a checkup. And it might not automatically notify you when software patches and upgrades are available.

To be honest, I see no driving need to make my toaster wireless either. It doesn't get bread slotted via the airwaves.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (djinni)
QUOTE (Lovesmasher @ Dec 14 2006, 02:48 PM)
That comes under 'taking precautions'. The FAQ tells GMs to have consequences for people who deactivate their wireless access. Example: If your cyberarm has a malfunction while your wireless access is off, your diagnostic program might not be able to give you an AR heads up (for example) and could rip itself off of your torso when you try to use it, causing serious physical harm and possibly death.

we generally use the bad luck dice roll for each situation
roll 1d6 for each wirelles disconnected item on a 1 there is a minor malfunction that might go unoticed...multiple 1's increase the malfunctions.

example our "the face" character decided his smartlinks were "oldschool" and not wireless he had his smartlink aiming misaligned at one point and couldn't understand why he couldn't hit anything, until he went in for his monthly checkup.

Perfect! A miscalibrated Smartlink is worse than no Smartlink at all. A miscalibrated cyberarm makes daily activities frustrating and combat... well, more frustrating.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (Lantzer)
Um, your arm still has direct DNI links. Let the diagnostic program notify you directly. It's hardwired to you. Got a datajack? My characters use their datajack as a PAN hub. As alphaware, its a rating 4 device.

All making your arm wireless does for you (barring certain specialized components) is make it so your cybertech doesnt have to plug into it when you go in for a checkup. And it might not automatically notify you when software patches and upgrades are available.

To be honest, I see no driving need to make my toaster wireless either. It doesn't get bread slotted via the airwaves.

How does your cyberarm's DNI access your visual hardware? Does the signal go into your brain and then out to the eye and back to the brain? Or are you implying that all DNI cyberware can communicate complex information to the brain directly?

With the other technology so easily accessable and inexpensive, I think it's unlikely that your leg would have complicated enough tech to be able to bypass all of this other tech that could more easily convert info into a brain signal just to send diagnostic info.

If you're using a datajack as your PAN hub, you're opening your datajack (and everything hooked to it) to hacking or rather, if you're using it to make everything on you hackerproof, cutting yourself off from the matrix completely.
Mikado
QUOTE
That comes under 'taking precautions'. The FAQ tells GMs to have consequences for people who deactivate their wireless access. Example: If your cyberarm has a malfunction while your wireless access is off, your diagnostic program might not be able to give you an AR heads up (for example) and could rip itself off of your torso when you try to use it, causing serious physical harm and possibly death.

But if you have additional cyberware (say an internal comm and cybereyes) you could have them hooked up together (using internal wires) and that would allow your arms diagnostics computer to tell your eyes there is a problem.

Like I said before:
QUOTE
I'll stick by with what I have said all along. Anyone STUPID enough to leave WiFi enabled on their cyber (especially runners) deserves what they get. If I run a cyber character in the future all cyber will be slaved to an internal commlink that will have its antenna removed, it will be slaved to a data jack (that will have its wireless removed) with a skinlink. Paranoid, absolutely! Smart, yes! The only time someone other than yourself having access to your innards is at the doctors (which is made available by the datajack) But what if your to injured you say, link the commlink to a biomonitor (non-wireless) and have the biomonitor disable the commlink security if you go critical. After you go critical (read overflow) your pretty much dead anyway so what does it matter if the comm gives anyone access. And if the enemy hacker manages to connect to your data jack, it should mean that your team is dead as well so it really does not matter after that.

If for some reason you need to have wireless functionality just have an external commlink with a skinlink. (with a hardwired skinlink shut-off, read a switch)

If, as a GM, you don't like the hackable cyberware rule just house rule it.
If, as a player, you don't like the hackable cyberware rule just let your GM know why your cyber is set up different then standard (a good back story will help) and then you don't need to worry about NPC's controlling your cyber.

I read this allot on these boards:
"But the book does not say you can do that"
And my answer is this: (because it works both ways)
"The book does not say you can't. And if your GM lets you its ok."
Kremlin KOA
QUOTE (Serbitar)
QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Dec 11 2006, 08:00 PM)
That would mean you can force the spinal cord, nerves, etc to send messages.  You might rule one way, but I think it defies the intent of the rules.

I would not go so far, but I would say that you can acces DNI devices like cybereys with other DNI devices, like an internal commlink or a datajack using DNI commands.

@Paul:

I know this, thats why I answered "yes" to

QUOTE (Fortune)

Cyber does not need to be connected to the Commlink to be DNI-enabled

Serbitar, if I have cybereyes and my Comlink gets bulet poisoning, do I go blind in your games? do my cyberlimbs stop working?

btw it the answer to either of these is yes then expect me to play mages exclusively
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (Mikado @ Dec 14 2006, 02:18 PM)
If, as a GM, you don't like the hackable cyberware rule just house rule it.
If, as a player, you don't like the hackable cyberware rule just let your GM know why your cyber is set up different then standard (a good back story will help) and then you don't need to worry about NPC's controlling your cyber.

I read this allot on these boards:
"But the book does not say you can do that"
And my answer is this: (because it works both ways)
"The book does not say you can't. And if your GM lets you its ok."

This is always true. It all comes down to the game you want to play.

The rules, as they stand though, favor hacker PCs over hacker NPCs. A PC hacker can and should be able to do things to an NPC that an NPC hacker can't and shouldn't be able to do to a PC. This is, in part, because a PC hacker that is limited by what an NPC hacker can do is going to be outnumbered 99.8% of the time. Fighting on equal ground isn't fair because every corp has a bank of hackers working against you. If they were all on equal footing with you, you would never accomplish anything.

In all my postings, I was, by no means, saying that NPCs should be able to do any of this stuff to the PCs unless it directly serves the plot.

Now PC vs PC on the other hand... that gets into grey areas because your hacker is going to be in a position to hack your systems anyway, if he really wants to, mostly because he's responsible for maintaining your security. It's really no more threatening though, than your Samurai carrying a sword around the group. Part of the arrangement is that he won't sword you.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
People seem to think that wireless command without wireless control is impossible. No, you don't push buttons on your commlink to control your cyberarm, but you probably do use your commlink to run diagnostic programs. Diagnostic programs more than likely are the route through which hackers will shut down your cyberware. It doesn't say that in the book or in the FAQ, but it does say, more broadly, that hacking your cyberware through your commlink is possible in most circumstances.

Shutting things down is the most immediate and easy thing to do when you're hacking cyberware. Spoof a single command 'shut down' and it's done. Of course, then they'll probably just turn it back on, so you'll need to do something more complicated like spoof 'shut down for 10 minutes' which would probably give you a higher threshold. More than likely you can manipulate that threshold a little by adding justifications to your commands like 'shut down functioning for 10 minutes to run full system diagnostic'.

A command that most certainly exists in the diagnostic programs (for the safety of the cyberdoc working on you) and is probably the most cruel one to use while hacking would be 'disable DNI access'. Good luck turning that arm back on without help.

Just because there are two modes of communicaton and control and one of them is considered universally available does not make it follow that it is the primary means of control.

Consider this troublesome cyberarm. It works without wireless. When working without Wireless it uses DNI. It hooked into you and seems to work just like a normal arm for most purposes.

Let's even concede the Cyberarm could be "driven" using the wireless communication to transmit what are nornmally the DNI type of control signals. No problem there. That's all good.

What I do question is the assumption the Wireless control > DNI control. To me, the situation where Wireless can be turned off and the arm still works leads me to think the Wireless is less critical to the operation of the cyberarm.

(I'll concede it's my assumption that) a cyberarm without DNI, but with wireless control, is not what I would expect to work well.

Which arm are you going to buy from your local arms merchant? The one which any hacker with a kiddie script and turn on and off for laughs and you need to have a WIreless to control, or the one that just hooks up to your torso and brain, just like your original arm?
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
QUOTE (Lovesmasher @ Dec 14 2006, 03:01 PM)
People seem to think that wireless command without wireless control is impossible. No, you don't push buttons on your commlink to control your cyberarm, but you probably do use your commlink to run diagnostic programs. Diagnostic programs more than likely are the route through which hackers will shut down your cyberware. It doesn't say that in the book or in the FAQ, but it does say, more broadly, that hacking your cyberware through your commlink is possible in most circumstances.

Shutting things down is the most immediate and easy thing to do when you're hacking cyberware. Spoof a single command 'shut down' and it's done. Of course, then they'll probably just turn it back on, so you'll need to do something more complicated like spoof 'shut down for 10 minutes' which would probably give you a higher threshold. More than likely you can manipulate that threshold a little by adding justifications to your commands like 'shut down functioning for 10 minutes to run full system diagnostic'.

A command that most certainly exists in the diagnostic programs (for the safety of the cyberdoc working on you) and is probably the most cruel one to use while hacking would be 'disable DNI access'. Good luck turning that arm back on without help.

Just because there are two modes of communicaton and control and one of them is considered universally available does not make it follow that it is the primary means of control.

Consider this troublesome cyberarm. It works without wireless. When working without Wireless it uses DNI. It hooked into you and seems to work just like a normal arm for most purposes.

Let's even concede the Cyberarm could be "driven" using the wireless communication to transmit what are nornmally the DNI type of control signals. No problem there. That's all good.

What I do question is the assumption the Wireless control > DNI control. To me, the situation where Wireless can be turned off and the arm still works leads me to think the Wireless is less critical to the operation of the cyberarm.

(I'll concede it's my assumption that) a cyberarm without DNI, but with wireless control, is not what I would expect to work well.

Which arm are you going to buy from your local arms merchant? The one which any hacker with a kiddie script and turn on and off for laughs and you need to have a WIreless to control, or the one that just hooks up to your torso and brain, just like your original arm?

Certainly a cyberlimb without DNI would be nearly worthless. My position is that both DNI and wireless are needed for optimal operation. Shutting off wireless functionality is going to limit some of the less essential functions. Automatic diagnostic alerts are a good example of what you lose when you disconnect unless you compensate otherwise.

In a previous example Mikado said that you could hardwire everything internally. That's certainly a possible compensation, but your GM could start permanently (until repaired) limiting functions when you had received a certain amount of physical damage to simulate damage to those internal wires. They would also be remiss if they didn't take essence loss into account for the cables installed in your body.

Unless your GM is using hacker NPCs to take over your cyberlimbs, you don't need to worry about it, and if he is, he's the GM and can do it anyway. If you're hiding that much from your team hacker, then you've got other problems that need addressing.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
Automatic diagnostic alerts are a good example of what you lose when you disconnect unless you compensate otherwise.

So where does it say DNI can't do this? I think DNI can do this just as well, if not better then wireless.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
QUOTE (Lovesmasher @ Dec 14 2006, 04:25 PM)
Automatic diagnostic alerts are a good example of what you lose when you disconnect unless you compensate otherwise.

So where does it say DNI can't do this? I think DNI can do this just as well, if not better then wireless.

Where does it say it can?
Crusufix
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
QUOTE (Lovesmasher @ Dec 14 2006, 04:25 PM)
Automatic diagnostic alerts are a good example of what you lose when you disconnect unless you compensate otherwise.

So where does it say DNI can't do this? I think DNI can do this just as well, if not better then wireless.

I, on the other, hand think the opposite. DNI can't take feedback from one system and then translate and use that information to affect another system. I believe our brains don't effectively work as a conduit like that. Heck most people end up thinking they are hungry when they are only thirsty. I think the only type of diagnostic feedback from the DNI system would be akin to a tingling sensation or pain if it's a high alert. I don't think our nervous system could transmit that information to another device reliably.
DireRadiant
Just add a sim module. No need for any wireless if you want pretty diagnostics other then "My arm hurts".
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Dec 14 2006, 04:05 PM)
QUOTE (Lovesmasher @ Dec 14 2006, 04:25 PM)
Automatic diagnostic alerts are a good example of what you lose when you disconnect unless you compensate otherwise.

So where does it say DNI can't do this? I think DNI can do this just as well, if not better then wireless.

Where does it say it can?

So how do we choose if neither is in the RAW?

Your guess is as good as mine.
BlueRondo
Can a person switch a cyberarm's wireless mode on and off directly through DNI? I mean, if a you can activate an implanted weapon directly through your brain, couldn't the DNI also be used to simply switch the wireless button on and off?

If so, then little jolts of pain may be all you need for DNI diagnostics feedback. When the arm starts sending your brain vague signals that "something is wrong," then you can simply activate the wireless switch via DNI and check out what the problem is (or wait until there's a cyberdoc nearby.) Once you see what's wrong, you simply switch wireless back off.
Butterblume
QUOTE (BlueRondo)
Can a person switch a cyberarm's wireless mode on and off directly through DNI?  I mean, if a you can activate an implanted weapon directly through your brain, couldn't the DNI also be used to simply switch the wireless button on and off?

Of course.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (Butterblume)
QUOTE (BlueRondo)
Can a person switch a cyberarm's wireless mode on and off directly through DNI?  I mean, if a you can activate an implanted weapon directly through your brain, couldn't the DNI also be used to simply switch the wireless button on and off?

Of course.

You act like it's common sense when it's not. There's no basis for assuming that the DNI can do anything other than work the base functions of the cyberware.
BlueRondo
Don't you retract a handblade, or activate a shock hand through DNI? Those certainly aren't base functions since they are additions to the original cyberware.

The wifi switch, however, is a default part of the cyberlimb, so why should it be considered anything but a base function?

EDIT: Ah, I see that this discussion was already carried out a couple of pages earlier.
kigmatzomat
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
QUOTE (Butterblume @ Dec 14 2006, 05:30 PM)
QUOTE (BlueRondo)
Can a person switch a cyberarm's wireless mode on and off directly through DNI?  I mean, if a you can activate an implanted weapon directly through your brain, couldn't the DNI also be used to simply switch the wireless button on and off?

Of course.

You act like it's common sense when it's not. There's no basis for assuming that the DNI can do anything other than work the base functions of the cyberware.

It's not common sense, it's logic.

1. A comm is not necessary for any piece of cyber.
2. It's a free action to issue a mental command to cyber devices
3. The only ways to issue a mental command are using either DNI or a trodenet & Comm with wifi or skinlink.

So for 1, 2, and 3 to be true, DNI must be able to process any commands the device will handle.

Now A back-room hackjob may add a new component to a cyberlimb that does not link to the arm's control system but everything installed by a real cyberdoc into a "slot" will be operable over the base device's DNI (lowlight, vision mag, shockhand, spurs, magnetic grapples, inspector gadget screwdriver fingers, etc).

The arguement keeps getting tossed around that not all devices have DNI. The obvious exception are the devices not intended to be under the owner's control (cranial bombs). This could be the extend of the exception but I would expect it to be extended to cyber that is either completely passive (bonelacing, dermal armor, etc.) or always on (muscle aug).

Remember that a Comm is an indirect neural interface. You go from trodes to the comm over wifi/skinlink/cable to the device. Other than the processing power of the Comm, how would this ever be a better control schema than directly linking the neural pathways to the device?

Throwing out the sim module on a Comm is a red herring; cyberlimbs provide the sense of touch which means it must include at least a limited function sim module to translate that data from machine code to neural input. Cybereyes do the same thing but they tie to the optic nerve instead of feeding into the frontal cortex.

DireRadiant
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
QUOTE (Butterblume @ Dec 14 2006, 05:30 PM)
QUOTE (BlueRondo)
Can a person switch a cyberarm's wireless mode on and off directly through DNI?  I mean, if a you can activate an implanted weapon directly through your brain, couldn't the DNI also be used to simply switch the wireless button on and off?

Of course.

You act like it's common sense when it's not. There's no basis for assuming that the DNI can do anything other than work the base functions of the cyberware.

P. 215 "Direct Neural Interface (DNI)—A connection between
the brain’s neural impulses and a computer
system, allowing a user to mentally interact with
and control that system."

But for some reason we aren't allowed to turn off the wireless using DNI....
BlueRondo
Another question that I think was already brought up, but I'd just like some clarification. From the FAQ:

QUOTE
Most other implants will be wireless, but the Signal is likely to be 0, since there's no need to broadcast diagnostics any further.


The FAQ shows that cyberlimbs are equipped with a transmitter for broadcasting diagnostics information, but that doesn't mean that the cyberlimb is equipped with a wireless receiver. I don't know too much about wireless communications, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that a device can transmit wireless information without necessarily being able to receive it.

So if my cyberarm doesn't have a wireless receiver, doesn't that mean it can send information to my commlink, but the commlink can't send anything back to the cyberarm?

Now, Lovesmasher might argue that I'm assuming there's no wireless receiver in the arm because the rulebook doesn't explicitly say so. So I'll drop the assumption and ask another question: If I specified to my GM that my newly installed cyberarm doesn't have a wireless receiver (or had it removed), what justification would the GM have for saying, "No, you can't do that."

EDIT: Additionally, what would be the drawback of removing the wireless receiver? The arm can still broadcast diagnostics information. You just can't send messages back to the machine. But who would you want to send messages to your cyberware other than yourself or a cyberdoc, both of whom can be hardwired to your cyberware.
Lovesmasher
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
QUOTE (Butterblume @ Dec 14 2006, 05:30 PM)
QUOTE (BlueRondo)
Can a person switch a cyberarm's wireless mode on and off directly through DNI?  I mean, if a you can activate an implanted weapon directly through your brain, couldn't the DNI also be used to simply switch the wireless button on and off?

Of course.

You act like it's common sense when it's not. There's no basis for assuming that the DNI can do anything other than work the base functions of the cyberware.

P. 215 "Direct Neural Interface (DNI)—A connection between
the brain’s neural impulses and a computer
system, allowing a user to mentally interact with
and control that system."

But for some reason we aren't allowed to turn off the wireless using DNI....

Where did I say that you wern't allowed? Read what I said.
BlueRondo
If you weren't implying that the wireless switch can't be activated via DNI, then what were you trying to get at when you said,

QUOTE
There's no basis for assuming that the DNI can do anything other than work the base functions of the cyberware.


?
Lovesmasher
Yes, I didn't say it couldn't. I said that there was no reason to assume you could.
BlueRondo
But since the book doesn't give an official rule, you have to make as assumption about something.

EDIT: And there is reason to make such an assuption. If DNI can be used to retract a handblade, then it can also be used to throw a switch.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Lovesmasher)
Yes, I didn't say it couldn't. I said that there was no reason to assume you could.

So you are saying the ability of DNI to allow the user to "mentally interact and control that system" means I cannot assume that a specific feature of the system can be cotnrolled by DNI?
Lovesmasher
I didn't say you can't assume, I said you had no basis to assume, which, I admit, was incorrect, having read the following more carefully:

QUOTE
P. 215 Direct Neural Interface (DNI)—A connection between the brain’s neural impulses and a computer system, allowing a user to mentally interact with and control that system.
RunnerPaul
If I may add the following to the discussion:

QUOTE (SR4 @ p.135)
Change Linked Device Mode
A character may use a Free Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode on any device that he is linked to either by a direct neural interface or by wireless link. This includes activating cyberware, changing a smartgun’s firing mode, deactivating thermographic vision, switching a commlink to hidden mode, turning a device’s wireless functionality off, and so on. Note that some devices may require longer to interact act with, as noted in individual gear descriptions.


(Underlining added to call out the parts specifically relevant to this discussion.)
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