The very next sentence.

"Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."

Also note on P. 24 SM
"She must be able to see
the target with her own eyes (as well as visual enhancements
paid with Essence), not the artificial surrogate of sensors."

How is anything in the last two pages new?



I keep clicking on this thread hoping to read something interesting, not the same thing I read last week.

As much as it's probably futile at this point, the phrase 'functions like an ultrasound system' is being taken way out of context. It should be fairly obvious to any experienced user of english that the sentence is there to explain the basic rules function of the bioware combination without going into massive depth repeating rules that have already been written. Since it is fairly obvious that the bioware does not magically conjure an AR display in front of your face with a visual representation of the sonar input, it should be similarly obvious that, while both systems allow you to percieve the same things (thus the cross-reference), they do not allow you to percieve them in the same way.

The ultrasound system pings the area around you with sonar, the system's cpu and software reprocess the resulting input data into a manner of digital elevation model (or possibly a hillshade) that allows you to visually interpret the information.

The echolocation bioware suite allows you to, with training, interpret the signals your ears are recieving natively, allowing your mind to intuitively create a model of your surroundings on the fly.

The reason the ultrasound system won't allow you to target things with magic is the same reason a photograph or a camera won't: there is a disconnect between the source of the data and the mage's (visual) perceptions. This is made fairly obvious from a reading of the targetting rules for magic, and is reiterated under the ultrasound system simply for completeness.

The reason echolocation will not allow you to target spells is the same reason a bat cannot. Unlike an ultrasound system, echolocation has no processor turning the auditory information into a visual overlay - you simply learn to percieve the complex audio your ears are recieving and translate it into an intuitive map of your surroundings. As this is not 'seeing' in the classical sense (though it is similar) you cannot target spells using it.

I've no doubt, Tarantula, that you will quote those last two paragraphs and refer me to the phrases 'funtions like an ultrasound system' and 'visual overlay,' with an optional side of 'cyber/bio-ware you have paid essence for.' In this case, I refer you to my first paragraph and primary argument: you are deliberately misconstruing the intent of the text.

Let me state it another way, just in case it hasn't sunk in yet: this is not Magic: the Gathering - a strict literal interpretation of every individual sentence in a paragraph (or even a chapter) strips the sentence of its meaning and misrepresents the intent of the sentence itself. Sentences in english do not function in a void; context is everything. Approaching something as complex, fluff-driven and fast-&-loose as a roleplaying game system as though it were an ironclad legal document will only lead you to false conclusions that sway the intent of the authors and leave the bounds of common sense.

The proof is in the Dragon Disciple.

It's unclear exactly what is correct, otherwise we wouldn't be having this thread.

The scenario to think about is the following.

Person does not go on Dumpshock, does not know the devs, does not know previous editions.
Person buys SR4
Person decides to play a mage
Person wants to replace eyes, reads book, and notes that cyber and bio vision enhancements that cost essence can be used for LOS targeting spells.
Person looks at vision enhancements, see ultrasound as a cyber enhancement in SR4
Person decides to get Augmentation to see what other cool new toys are available
Person finds echolocation bioware and a couple other options
(Person checks SM)
Person checks errata.

At this point is it unreasonable for this person to think Echolocation(with the specified options) could be used for targeting LOS spells?

No not really.

At the same time there is a clear explanation that regardless of paid with essence we have the problem with "Aid by technological means" and that

Any kind of vision enhancement can be used - anything that is installed in cybereyes

Nor the ultrasound sensor and the radar sensor are eyeware, they are headware.

Since neither of those lets you see with your natural vision and they are instead a type of sensor - an external device not part of your natural vision that paints an image in your field of view. In the case of echolocation as a more natural sense it doesnt even give you a painted image in your POV.

Cool, that's an awesome explanation and perfectly reasonable. Now, could you magically appear next to the book every time it gets opened to those pages so you can explain that please. For each and every copy, physical and electronic as well. And you won't get paid. And you won't get any excuses for your unexplained work absences either, nor any other form of compensation.

*Grin*

Only as long as they post their question on the forum.

No, seriously.

Regarding all the new implants and suchlike a clearer description of spell targeting would be useful so one didnt have to re-read the rules for each piece of tech.

Which is really what I'd like to get.

As far as a new player, I can easily see someone who has never heard of shadowrun before casting via radar/ultrasound cyberware, because it replaces/overlays vision, has been paid for with essence, and is not similar to the "electronic" examples given in spell targeting (all the examples are external pieces of equipment, not 'ware).

Failed in both regards here. The complete sentence is as follows. Hooray for selective reading again.

"Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used." --SR4 p. 173

Technological != Cyberware Only. If it substitutes (related synonyms including "replaces" and "overlays"... both of which are used in the description for Ultrasound) your vision, it's a no-go. So even if Ultrasound Vision was a cybereye modification it wouldn't work -- cyberware or bioware. Either way it'd be a technological visual aid that substitutes itself for the character's own visual sense. By the rules, by the descriptions, by common sense, and by pretty much everything other than a completely dense reader.

And when one's best argument is "it has VISION in its name!"... well, let's just say that in those situations I strongly stand by the "completely dense reader" bit.

Or are we going to continue to blatantly ignore the rules and say that an Image Link -- a cybereye modification paid for with Essence -- totally allows you to use Matrix feeds, cameras, etc. to cast spells? It's exactly the same thing.

Overlay doesn't replace your vision. Since it says replace OR overlay, I could easily see a new player thinking its totally fine to do so.

I think it's fair to say that english is an imprecise language that often leaves things open to interpretation. It's heavily reliant of contextual references, which themselves are often open to varying interpretations depending on the background, experiences, and expectations of the reader. The actual text involved contains enough leeway that it's possible to interpret either way, depending on which words and phrases the reader puts the heavier emphasis on. Neither side in this argument is either stupid or willfully ignorant, and the fact that we can go on for over 150 posts without changing anyone from their original positions is a good indication that it wouldn't hurt to put a clarification in the FAQ.

That said, I don't really care much either way, myself. Neither interpretation significantly changes game balance or the power of mages, and it's a niche issue. I doubt it will ever actually come up in my games.

Does not this entire thread boil down to the definition of vision (for magical targeting purposes) actually being: You can target anything you see with your eyes, including any modifications internal to those eyes (cyber modification or replacement).

As for "Ultrasound Vision", I am sure that in the Sixth World it is marketed that way, and for mundane purposes it is close enough to make all the street sams very happy, but it is still not good enough for magic. I always assumed that was why it was defined as headware rather than eyewear. Now if there was a new peice of ware that was an eye mod, I would just assume that it could be used for magical targeting.

back in SR3, Ultrasound WAS Eye-Ware . . and it still did not allow mages to target spells with it . .
neither did that thermosense bioware, which is pretty close to this thing . .

By the arguments presented by some on this thread, an Image Link and an Occular Drone can both be used to target spells.

as long as the drone stays in the socket, it is useable as per the rules.
but as soon as it leaves your skull open to any mindfucking, it's a drone and as such never was useable for casting . . if it's not carrying the fibreoptic cable used in your magesight goggles and the sensors are purely optical . .

Seeing sound is not seeing. It isn't important HOW you are interpreting input (ie, intrepeting sound as sight), what is important is WHAT you are interpreting.

The way I see it, is you need to see with your "astral eyes", even if not astrally active. The reason may be something due to the anatomy of your astral self or simply a limitation due to the general perception that you need sight to target. Perhaps with a shift in popular perception, other senses could be used to target spells.

I won't try too hard to convince you. If Synner saying it doesn't work, I certainly won't be able to convince you. I hope at least you can see the logic of both sides.

I'm well aware how imprecise english is, and yet, from the relevant text, I honestly don't think anyone would come to the conclusion that you could target with the echolocation bioware unless one was attempting (wether willfully or subconciously) to rules-lawyer the book, rather than looking at the way it works in the simulated world the rules represent.

I do think a new player could make the mistake, because the book's layout leaves a little to be desired, and unless you read it from cover to cover it's easy to miss important nuances of the rules (such at spell targetting being based on sight), but most RPG's have this problem - I can't think of a single system that I or my gaming groups have gotten right on the first run through.

I agree with Tarantula the the spell rules could be explained more clearly, and more succinctly, but I disagree that the echolocation bioware or the ultrasound vision headware need to be re-written - if one understands the spell rules sifficiently, there can be no doubt that the echolocation bioware will not allow spell targetting. The true stumbling block to understanding this argument is the spellcasting rules.

The combination to look at is a Cybereye with the Ultrasound Vision Enhancement option. If you are claiming the Cybereye with Thermo or Lowlight option also does not work for spell targeting, then that's a consistent argument, but then how does the normal visual range work for cybereyes?

I do agree the headware Ultrasound Sensor should not work for spell targeting since that's headware, and a different sense.

And feel free to keep calling me dense. It helps your arguments immensely.

Just because you have the ultrasound sensor in you metallic eyeballs rather than your metallic skull, doesn't mean you're seeing light. It's still sonar that is being interpreted, modelled and displayed in realtime, much the same as broadcast data from a remote camera. Cybereyes work because the data from the camera is fed directly into your nervous system, which the ultrasound data is not - it is (would have to be) processed in an internal cpu in the cybereye before being sent to the brain as 'visuals.'

Ultrasound / sonar / echolocation is not natively visual data. It never can be by its very nature. You need to see a target to cast at it, not see a graphical representation of it that has been translated from some other source of information, be that broadcast radio waves carrying a video feed, reflected ultrasound or anything else you care to imagine.

Platinum, if that were correct, Radar would work, as it is the same kind of energy that light is (electro magnetic) and would be similar to seeing infrared. Since radar doesn't work, obviously its not simply because its part of the electromagnetic spectrum, and was picked up via implant.

What your describing here is also the process for out of normal visual spectrum that occurs with thermographic or UV, and also with Low Light cybereye mods. Ultimately the receptor and processor is the visual cortex of the brain, where in the stream of conversion processes do we suddenly say you can't use sight to target LOS spells?

EM spectrum --> Cyber Eye (Cyber eye converts out of spectrum, and amplifies low light)--> Brain
Ultrasound --> Cyber Eye --> Brain
Ultrasound --> Cybereye --> Visual Representation --> Brain

Do we not allow targeting because the source information happens to be not in the electromagnetic spectrum?
Do we not allow targeting because there is technological processing? (But this occurs even with normal visual range sight...)

I don't have an answer, and I've seen a lot of good ones here, but the vast majority of them are just pretty good opinions on how it should work.

*headache*

Ok, talking about having radar vision as a vision sense is THEORETICALLY possible, especially if we add it as a vision mod.

There are however problems.

The normal metahuman/human brain of today (and tomorrow) is not naturally designed to interpret such extreme wavelengths of the visual spectrum.

http://www.marietta.edu/~mcshaffd/aquatic/...ant/senspec.gif

See - no sound in there

But there is a shitload of other things would interfere with vision and having radar vision would still require some kind of computer that interprets the data for you - raw data would be incomprehensible.

Yes, seeing X-Rays would be possible.

I would allow mystic adepts and changelings to have extreme senses but they would still not target with spells, its not a natural born sense.

It is either magical, augmented or natural - and no born metatype has radar vision...

End result - If it aint natural it won't work.

If this was the real world there would probably be a nice clean scientific explanation such as:

• EM spectrun —> eye/cybereye —> brain = magic targeting. Nothing else short of astral perception or touch works.

But this is a game and games also need game balance, so for SR4 it works like this:

• Eyeware —> eye/cybereye/eyeband —> brain = magic targeting

So since Ultrasound, Echolocation, and Radar are not allowed for game balance reasons they are not eyeware, they are headware or something else.

As for the image link, that option is clearly showing data external to the eye as an overlay, and is considered covered under the rules already as not allowing targeting.

So if a new book adds a new eyeware mod, and does not specifically forbid it, than the new mod could be used for targeting. non-eyeware on the other hand (no matter what its flavour text implies) cannot be used for magical targeting unless it is specifically allowed under the new rules for the mod in question.

Unfortunately that isn't the only possible conclusion. Yes, radio waves are the same 'type' of energy as visible light / infra-red /etc. but that doesn't mean it works the same way - visible light and radio are no more 'the same thing' as blue and yellow are. It's believable enough that magic only works along one small subset of the EM spectrum, the same way the receptors in our eyes do, or a radio antenna.

Of course, the real reason you can't use radio waves for spell LOS is game balance, but occasionally the rules inform the fluff (rather than the other way around). And since that's how the fluff works now, further rules emerge from it. It's a vicious cycle. =P



Several things led me to my conclusion.

We know that mages cannot target with cameras and other remote observation devices, even if they're looking through the camera at something in front of them.
We know that mages can target using cybereyes.

This leads me to the conclusion that the cybereyes system doesn't work in the conventional way a digital camera does. I would expect, rather than having small digital cameras in them that then sent information to the brain, that they probably simply have a technological replacement for the eye's natural receptors that wire directly into the same nerves. Low-light might simply be an enhancement to the sensitivity of the receptors, thermo-imaging an expansion to their sensitive range.

Ultrasound, on the other hand, if wired directly into the nervous system, wouldn't make sense to your optical nerves - it would just be 'neural noise.' In order to present ultrasound in a manner understandable to the human eye, there has to be a significant amount of post-processing done to take the data, translate it into a 3d model, and then 'colour' the model so that the eye can make out significant features. Thus would mean not just replacing the receptors in your eye - as with standard cybervision - but also having an internal CPU, RAM and hard storage for the post-processing software, at which point you're 'seeing' the ultrasound as though through a digital camera, wich doesn't work for spell targetting.

Of course, again, I think the real reason mages can target with cybereyes is also game-balance, but hey, what are you gonna do?

So, using your symbology:

Subset of the EM spectrum (visible light with leeway to either side for IR or UV, possibly with a toggle for hypersensitivity / low-light) -> eye/cybereye -> optic nerves = LOS
Ultrasound -> cybereye -> internal CPU -> optic nerves != LOS

And note that for ultrasound there is no way to arrive at:

Cybereye -> optic nerves

...because your optic nerves can't process sound.

Of course, this is all arguing off the idea that spell targetting uses sight because of some facet of the 'visible light' portion of the EM spectrum, and not 'a wizard did it,' but the latter interpretation... inhibits discussion, to say the least.

Please keep in mind there are two Ultrasound pieces of ware that are of interest in this discussion.

Headware, Ultrasound sensor, which is not referenced by the the Echolocation description, and does not work with eyes. I believe the consensus is that this does not work for LOS spell targeting. It's not vision, but added sensor gear.

The Vision Enhancement, Ultrasound. This breaks down into possible pieces of gear.
1. Goggles/Glasses/Monocle/Camera Upgrade, with Ultrasound, which we explicitly know cannot be used for LOS Spell Targeting since these are technological enahncements that do not cost essense.
2. Cybereyes, which are automatically cameras BTW, which can be used for LOS Spell targeting. But what happen here if we take Ultrasound? What about the other vision Enhancements, such as Thermographic, or Low Light?

Now here is where a proper look at how you get Ultrasound into cybereyes reveals that there is no Cybereye option for ultrasound.

So Low Light and Thermographic work in cyerbeyes for Spell Targeting because they are listed options in the Eyeware, and would cost essence if taken independently. But Ultrasound is not a cybereye option, see p. 332 in the SR4 book. (And no option in Augmentation either)

The reason you can't use Ultrasound for spell targeting is because the Ultrasound option is not available for Cybereyes.

That answers the question to my satisfaction.

Just as a fun aside, we have—in real life—already used natural eyes as cameras. There have been successful experiments where a data tap on the optic nerve of a subject animal was converted into a watchable picture on a computer monitor. I.E. whatever the animal looks at with its natural eyes is also visible on the computer screen.

The experiments are being done because understanding the signal sent to the brain is an important step to building better cybereyes. And yes we have done very crude artificial vision for a handful of human subjects.

There are basically three methods in real life:

• The first involves a device attached to the retina that stimulates it based on what a small camera sees. This method works the best so far because it turns out that even the retina itself does some small amount of image processing.
• The second involves an electrical cuff around the optic nerve, that would send data down the nerve to the brain. This method is how full replacement cyber eyes are most likely to work, but is currently the least developed, due to the complexity.
• The third skips the nerve and sends camera data directly to the brain itself. The brain needs significant time to learn how to interpret the strange data, but subjects can after headache inducing training see grades of shadow, indicating general size of objects in front of them. By the way this third method is considered unethical in the U.S. because it alters an otherwise healthy brain in tying to solve a problem that is external to the brain.

SR4, 173, "Step 3: Choose the Target(s)
The next thing a magician must do when casting a spell is
choose her target(s). A spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."


Then why does biological echolocation state that it works as ultrasound cyberware, which is vision. If it is not vision, it should state that it works as the cyberware, but is not vision. It needs to state that, because the ultrasound vision section it references says that it overlays/replaces vision.


I got tired of reading the thread so someone may have pointed this out already.
but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses
references says that it overlays/replaces vision

These two sentences answer the question. The bioware and cyberware are technological means that replaces vision. That means that the new echolocation "vision" is a substitution for vision and therefore cannot be used for spell targeting.

The arguement is that because it is bioware, and done via living tissue, it is not "technological" but "biological".

And for-better-or-worse the RAW SR4 answer is that since Ultrasound & Echolocation are not eye modifications, they are not vision (for magical targeting), only like vision for ease of explanation (and non magical use).

The 'ware ultrasound is not a vision mod, correct.

The 'ware echolocation references the ultrasound GEAR which is a vision enhancement modification that is put on glasses and the like and IS a vision mod.

The headware references the exact same thing. Your point?

Echolocation isn't a technological visual aid, its a biological one.

Really, I like for the spellcasting rules to use ultrasound as an example of something you can't cast with.

Then it Really comes down to your GMs call. I would argue against it working for spellcasting because it takes a technological means to give the mages body that biological advantage. It's something along the same lines as the question "Why does Bioware reduce essence it's biological isn't it?"

Echolocation is not a visual aid because it is not in the eyes. It is describe as like vision, and uses the Ultrasound rules for simplicity. If Ultrasound was eyeware as opposed to headware, than there would be an issue.

Neither is the Ultrasound Sensor headware. Which, again, points to the same exact set of rules that Echolocation does. According to your argument, that means the headware implant is just as viable as Echolocation is for spellcasting. Which it isn't. Neither is Echolocation.

Ultrasound cyberware is not biological, but technological. Which gets it barred due to the technological enhancements sentence.

Amazing how you guys change your arguments on a whim.

According to you, because they reference the Ultrasound Sensor available to glasses and whatnot, that makes it a "vision mod." The Ultrasound Sensor headware implant is paid for with Essence and, again according solely to you, is also a vision mod because it references said set of rules just like Echolocation does. Thus, again according to you, that makes it a "vision mod" paid for with Essence and thus available for use with LOS spellcasting.

Sorry, but you can't selectively ignore things. Even though you have from the start of this silly discussion.

Yes, except for the fact that it is a TECHNOLOGICAL vision mod, which are not viable for casting.

Bioware is technologigal too, it's not a natural part of you.

no, it'S not, it's biological, not technological . . it's just CALLED Biotech, because there are medical technologies that allow to change biological tissue to do things it usually could/should/would not do . . it's still UNNATURAL mind you, but not technological . . and still not useable as LOS for Spell-Targetting

Oh! In that case your NEW argument is that Low-Light Vision, Thermographic Vision, and hell, CYBEREYES aren't viable for spellcasting! My bad. What was I thinking?

I know Dr. F just said the same thing, but I'm gonna drive this point home: by that definition, so are cybereyes.

Hrm, I've been arguing off the cuff too much lately, and thrown myself in a corner. Oops.

All this back and forth is why something needs an errata.

Echolocation text indicates it's a vision mod.

Vision mods paid for with Essence are viable for use in spell targeting.

External vision mods that don't apply technological processing are also viable for use in spell targeting. (unless that changed in SR4. Thus Optical binoculars were okay, but electronic ones weren't.)

We have competing statements that state Ultrasound and Radar can't be used. This is true due to them being headware, not eyeware.

So it leaves us in a situation where we have a vision modification paid for with Essence that can't be used in spell targeting. That violates a long standing rule. Thus an errata should be issued that corrects this descrepancy. If Echolocation cannot be used as sight (ie: it works like Ultrasound), then it needs to lose the vision mod descriptor.

The rest of the bickering is nothing more than a huge circle jerk with everyone saying they are right.

No it definedly doesn't, it just refenences the rules for ultrasound vision.
The text for echolocation meke it quite clear that it's not a vision mod and so do all texts for all the other parts necesary to make it work as a true ultrasound system.

What vision mod?

None of these (Radar, Ultrasound, and Echolocation) are vision mods.

Echolocation states it functions like the ultrasound vision enhancement.
Ultrasound ware says it is an implanted version of the ultrasound vision enhancement.

Radar uses the same verbage as the ultrasound vision enhancement, and says it is similar. It doesn't say it is a vision enhancement.

That doesn't make it a vision mod.
Since we're both humans i could say i funktion like you, but that doesn't mean i'm you.

In SR3 there was a distinction between electronic cybereyes and purely optic cybereyes, i.e. in which the received electromagnetic waves would only be reflected and magnified through lenses. This second type of cybereye was required by mages in order to cast spells. Anything like mirros or glasses did not hamper spellcasting. Images reproduced by electronic devices however could not be used for spell targetting, be it a camera video feed or an electronic cybereye - in the end they are the same.

In SR4 this has been "simplified". The cybereye now only needs to have been paid for with essence (except for the errata about eyeball drones). By which means the "vision" is generated doesn't matter anymore. Therefore, based only on what is written in the book, I agree with Tarantula: in SR4, ultrasound vision should work for spell targetting.

I know that Synner wrote this wouldn't work. If a developer says so, then so be it. However, I do not agree with his explanation about it.

You might want to take a look at how you can make cybereyes with Ultrasound built in. I'm interested in how that is done. From what I can see, you can make lots of devices with ultrasound, but you can't actually construct the cybereyes themselves with Ultrasound. There's no capacity or essence cost nor the option in the eyeware tables.

You can get Ultrasound Sense, but that is headware, not an eyeware mod.

If you could get cybereyes with ultrasound, then this would be an interesting question then.