Just read the 2 posts I quoted from Synner again...

I guess my last point is what does this break? The mage would be able to cast on people he could normally see anyway, possibly with lesser modifiers due to smoke or darkness. Of course, he could also just astrally perceive to avoid those modifiers also. So, is it really unreasonable, considering that it doesn't let him cast through walls or other sillyness?

Which is exactly what cybernetics that extend the EM spectrum outside the natural Metahuman range do. They process photons of different energies and provide a feed that can be interpreted by the visual cortex. While cyernetic echolocation doesn't use photons, the interface in metas is hooked into the visual cortex, not the auditory one.



So the question is, "What is it about stuff that's paid for with Essence that allows the Mage to form the Astral Connection to the target?" If whatever that is can be applied to "any cybernetic sensor device that maps its output onto the meta's visual cortex", then Mages can target using "echovision".



Evidently something about this statement is incorrect, since spectra outside the visible range can be used for targetting by mages who have cyber eyes. I think the sidebar on p167 in the BBB is relevant. IIRC in previous editions, this has been described as a sort of mana circuit, and the important thing about it is that the Mage be able to *perceive* with a high degree of *precision* their target with a sense that is *part* of themselves (i.e. paid for with Essence). The reason you can't target something with normal hearing or the pit viper sense is that it isn't precise enough. The only sense us dopey metas have that is accurate and precise enough for spell targetting is visual. And that's about the processing, i.e. which part of the brain deals with it.



This is an assumption on your part and one that's hard to accept. How does magic know what other metas can "see" so it can allow a human to use their lo-lite and thermo for targetting? You're also assuming that the physical medium of perception has anything to do with mana. I'm not sure that's a safe assumption to make.




What you're not understanding is that you're assuming the medium is even relevant.

Yes, it uses the medium of compressed and rarefied air (sound) but it presents it to the meta's consciousness as a visual sense. Your statement is largely irrelevant or supports the view that EL is a spell targetting sense if paid for with essence.



Again, your assumption. Again, I don't credit that. We're such visually-oriented creatures that I can't see us doing other than mapping the receicved sound reflections into a visual interpretation. It's certainly what happes with ultrasound vision goggles.

So. It's entirely possible to argue that echolocation is a visual sense, as far as magic is concerned, since magic interfaces with it using the Mage's brain (which is why it cost essence), and the brain thinks it's a visual sense.

Shooting spells through walls remains impossible, since the *mana* can't pass through walls, so you can't form the link to the target.

In the end it's a GM call. If it's the medium of transmission of the sensory perception that's important, you're right. If it's the Mage's cognition of their surroundings that's important, you're wrong. That's a piece of metaphysics that doesn't seem to be adequately defined, but I think the bit about visual enhancements (not *optical*, visual) tends more to support my contention. Also, consider touch spells. They make a positive and precise location of the target in a different way. No EM involved at all.

Edit: ArkonC, can you please excerpt what synner has to say? That's a long thread.

And again, I say biological echolocation states it works like ultrasound, which states it is visual.

Echolocation specifically states that it is an ACOUSTIC SENSE that gives you a SPATIAL PERCEPTION. It is a completely new sense. Not sight, not vision, not touch. Something new. With or without additional mods. You even have to take a crash-course to learn how to perceive it because it is so alien to a normal person's perspective of the world around them.

Ultrasound Vision is exactly the same sans the need for a crash-course because the hardware auto-translates it to a visual map and paints it over your line of vision. Ultrasound vision creates an illusion of a visual sense for you, but the sense itself is not visual in any way, shape, or form.

Neither are a form of sight. Technological or biological, it doesn't matter one iota. Stop clinging to descriptors used to explain the sense so you can understand it as a player as a definition of what the sense is. It just makes you look every bit as stupid as this argument is.

Well, if you don't even believe the people who wrote the book...

Except, that when combined with vocal range extender and enhanced hearing, it functions as true ultrasound.

Ultrasound vision, as you said, is a vision enhancement. With the information from the sound laid over your vision.


How is having the information from the ultrasound emitter/detector zapped to your visual cortex any different than having the information from the camera in your cybereye zapped to your visual cortex?

The only reason ultrasound doesn't work for casting, is it is technologically based. Echolocation ultrasound is not, as its biology based. If you want, the echolocation bioware itself hooks up into the visual cortex (similar to how a cats eye bioware would) and does the translation from sound to visual signals to the brain. Why does it not work? You see it as an overlay (the same as ultrasound, as it says) and it is not technological.

Again, I said it might need errata. If thats the intention. They way the books are worded right now, there is no reason a mage could not cast spells with echolocation, vocal range extender, and enhanced hearing.

No, I mean, seriously, read it:

By Synner, you know, the guy who wrote the book...
If that doesn't work for you, nothing will...

Thanks for actually quoting it, I was skimming that thread, but, didn't feel like reading a novel to get your point.

Synner said, "even simple touch do not work. " and yet, SR4, 173, "Some spells can only be cast on targets that the caster touches—these targets do not need to be seen, but the caster must succeed in an unarmed attack to touch an unwilling target of such a spell."

Does that now mean that touch only spells can only be cast if you can also see the guy?

Everyone can make mistakes, in this case either Synner is wrong about biological echolocation ultrasound, or the book is wrong and needs errata. I don't really care which it is, but it needs to be clarified and done.

Touch spells != LOS spells. They're too completely different things. Synner was talking about LOS spells. So no, you can't rely solely on touch to cast a Stunbolt at someone. Knockout, yes. Stunbolt, no. And vice-versa.

Having read the arguments for and against, I have to agree with Tarantula. It seems to me that the aspect of the overlay means you could discern and select a target via magic.

Plus, it's not inherently game-breaking. It doesn't let you see through walls, it has penalties inherent in the system, and that suggests to me that it would qualify.

Obviously people have different opinions, and as always, you're free to run your games as you see fit. But I agree with Tarantula on this one, by its nature (translating sound to vision) it seems no different than any cybernetic vision enhancement (i.e. translating heat to vision).

I also concur that errata might be needed, since as it's written, there's two interpretations easily drawn about it.

I believe Synner but only because he's a developer not because of what's been said on this thread. The book needs errata. Seriously. The sense of sight isn't just linked to eyes. It also involves the brain and its interpretation of signals/stimulus. If Echolocation isn't permitted to replace natural and traditional cyber-sight it shouldn't require a posting on a message board and a bunch of huffy defending to figure out.

Some things shouldn't need to be argued, but that never stops it from happening. Common sense died the day the Internet was born.

The chain of reasoning, from the text, which is all most people will have access to, is that augmentation p.63, and the following part on p. 64, lead from bioware echolocation to being as ultrasound, which overlays or replaces sight. Sight is used for targeting LOS spells.

Citing one part of the text to the exclusion of other parts just to support your opinion isn't going to change what's written in the text. The text has contradictory elements, even within in it's own descriptions, and unfortunately there's nothing in the specific text that states that it cannot be used for spell targeting, whereas the general rule that essence costing cyber/bioware can be used for LOS spell targeting apparently applies.

When I'm playing this game, I don't have the luxury of poking around in a developers head, I just have the rules written in the books.

My opinion on whether or not it should work is a separate and distinct thing from the validity of the chain of reasoning that can be derived from the body of text. From everything I've read so far it is does seem that the rules as written do allow for echolocation, in conjunction with the other enhancements, would allow a mage to use it for targeting LOS spells.

My opinion on whether or not this fits with the game universe I will keep to myself, but whether or not I agree with your opinion, I don't think your rude obnoxious offensive abrasive behavior and responses would be effective in changing it much. Common sense might lead you to understand that there is the possibility that I actually agree with your opinion of how it should work. But that's just a persons opinion.

Well I guess that's just the rub isn't it? Common sense would say that the plural form of nexus would be nexuses but Shadowrun says it's nexi. Common sense would say a skill is always linked to its parent attribute but it's discarded in Matrix rolls and replaced by a program attribute. Who knows why? Anyone who has ever watched a science program, listened to NPR or taken high school level biology knows that the sense of sight is controlled just as much by neurology as the biological operations of the eye. Shadowrun has aspects about it that make no sense without the developer's notes accompanying them and there's nothing wrong with pointing them out or discussing them when they haven't been made unarguably clear in the text.

Exactly, even if someone stubbornly refuses to read and acknowledge what the rules for Echolocation says, the bolded part above completely and irrevocably makes it useless for targeting spells. It doesn't augment your sight. It overlays (nope, can't overlay natural vision such as with modded contacts for spellcasting) or replaces (nope, can't use a replacement like a camera either) it.

Which is exactly why Ultrasound Vision -- even when implanted in a cybereye -- doesn't work. Despite cybereyes allowing you to cast spells, even with augmentations like Low-Light Vision and Thermographic Vision.

Yet when that's pointed out, you start getting stupid arguments like "well that's because it's technological and Echolocation isn't!" That certainly doesn't stop Thermographic or Low-Light Vision mods from working, but to Hell with common sense.


Exactly. Yet that's what everyone keeps doing. They ignore the part where the rules specifically state exactly what Echolocation is and instead cling to a descriptor that merely explains the effect. The description for Echolocation even puts the word "sight" in quotations becuase it's not sight. With or without additional modifications. It even tells you in no uncertain terms that it's an acoustic sense that creates a spatial perception. And yet people keep ignoring all of that and clinging to the "oh, it references the rules for ultrasound vision." Of course, then they ignore everything about ultrasound vision as mentioned above and just cling to the word "sight."

So, yeah. Don't try to pull the "you're only reading part of the rules and ignoring everything else" trump card. I'm not the one doing that.

As for my perceived attitudes; feel free to ignore me if you so like. I believe it's a function in these new forums. I couldn't care less. If people continue to say stupid things, I'll continue to call them on it.

The echolocation part you keep referencing is discussion ONLY the echolocation modification on its own. Once you combine it with the vocal range extender and the hearing amplification modifications, it functions as ultrasound instead. Why? Because thats what the book says.


No. Echolocations states how it is, and then says that if you happen to have vocal range extender and hearing amp, it works like ultrasound. And then gives a page reference to boot. You choose to think that echolocation, and echolocation + vocal range extender + hearing amp work the same, which is incorrect.

^

Case in point.

OK, here's some nuclear fireball grade fuel for this fire... SURGE with Biosonar!



Now as all Dumpshocker's know, Dolphins in the Sixth World CAN be mages. They have to have a way to target spells and I think that they can target with their sonar. If a Dolphin can then a Changeling with a VERY weird family tree can target as well. This also has the advantage that it is NOT 'ware. This is as natural as your own eyes.

Except then it isn't ultrasound, and doesn't reference the ultrasound ware, and thusly, is not vision.

Can you produce a cite that SR's dolphins can target with sonar?

It's not like they don't have functioning eyes. (Just like bats - poor eyesight for sonar-using animals is a myth.)

You chose to ignore that it says that it functions as a true ultrasound system, and don't care about the text that explains how a true ultrasound system works.

I choose to ignore the description of how echolocation works when it is only echolocation, not combined with other implants and not a true ultrasound system.

How is your view more correct? When the point is that echolocation when used as a true ultrasound system should be able to target spells?



Please, explain why you think the description for echolocation ON ITS OWN is relevant to the discussion at all?

Take, for example, the astral perception ability.

It's described almost entirely as what the mage can see. Except astral perception isn't a visual sense - it's a sense that noone actually has, that the writers needed to write about in a way that players could visualize it.

Same with echolocation. There isn't really an overlay. You just know where things are, because you can hear your ping bouncing off of them. Rather than waste a page or two going into detail about how that should work, they simply refer to rules that are already in the game.

If you think there is an overlay, I'd love to hear your reasoning on how a modification to your ears and your voice affects what you can see. If there was an eye-modification surgery required as well, you'd have a case.

P. 324 Ultrasound, in the Vision Enhancers section
"that is laid over (or replaces) the user’s normal
visual sensory input."

That is not my reasoning, just what's in the book.

Congrats - you've just proved my point.

Ultrasound is an eye-mod.
Echolocation isn't.

Except, that echolocation + vocal range extender + hearing amp functions as a true ultrasound system, and references that page he quoted. Guess what that means, it turns into visual, as soon as you get it with the other goodies. Why? Because the book says so. This is why it should get errataed to say "functions as a true ultrasound system, but is still not visual". or somesuch.

p. 64 Augmentation
"If combined with the vocal range enhancer (p. 67) and
hearing enhancement (p. 65) implants (or their cyberware equivalents),
with a little training this augmentation functions like a true
ultrasound system (p. 324, SR4)."

Just what's in the book.

And what eye-modification is included in "vocal range enhancer" and "hearing enhancement"?

No eye-mod, no real overlay - just an example of how-to-handle.

Is it really that hard to grasp?

Except that it says " functions like a true ultrasound system". Which means it IS either overlayed or replaces. This is why I say the book needs to correct that, to say that it is NOT visual based. Because the way it is worded now, it is.

Has anyone suggested that if it is connected/wired into the Visual Cortex of the brain in question it is visual aspect and can be used for spell targeting, it not then it can not be?

WMS

OK, I'm sorry but I could not find any links for Dolphins using Biosonar to target for spells, but I did find this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_echolocation#Bats



This to me means that a bat can use biosonar to see by using sound.

============================================================

Anyways, back on topic: I can see why bioware mods could not be used (I don't agree, but I won't argue with Synner), but with SURGE it's completely natural for the Changeling. It's biology gone a little screwy.

I tried. Synner says "no go." I won't argue with him as he's a dev though I do disagree with his reasoning.

No, that means that a bat can accurately perceive their environment by using sound. That doesn't make it "seeing". But whenever we encounter a sense we don't have we always describe it using a visual metaphor, because we're primarily visual animals. Have you seen (again with the visual metaphor) how much real estate our visual system uses in our brains?

Well since this is worse than a "Soup Sandwich".

I have no issue with arguing with him. But since they are way behind on the current list of errata, I do not hold much hope for a resolution to this issue or the many others.

Saying it has to be wired into the visual cortex reduces the number of loopholes etc.

WMS

It really depends on what part of the brain is doing the processing. If the processing of the Echolocation is being done by the optical center of the brain, then it should count as a form of vision.

If it's being processed elsewhere and then piped to the optical center, then no it should not work.

It's really a matter of whether or not a given frequency is perceivable by the optical center of the brain. All sounds, light, IR, UV, and RF are simply various forms of radiation that are transmitted on different frequencies. A certain range of which we call visible light.

As an aside, most people grasp the concept they can perceive UV under certain conditions. Namely, eliminate all visible light and turn on a UV light source. You'll still be able to see. What most people DON'T grasp is you can do the same with IR as well.

How I'd rule it?

Simple. If the Essence is paid for and the processing is done by the meat, then it counts. If the processing is done by the machine, it doesn't count.

Could you please explain how expanding the range of sounds you can hear and emit, turns an acoustig sense in to a visual sense?

Oh right nothing.

Well the biggest problem is at least IMO the fact that the writer desided to preference the Ultrasound vision, becouse even with those exra mods it can not work like the cyber version.
Considering that the character is emitting ultrasound from her mouth, it can't exacly be allways on like the the cyber ultrasound vision.

I don't think this came across quite how you meant it. Visible light, IR, UV, and RF are different frequencies of the same thing. Sound is a fundamentally different thing from all those others.

edit: Not trying to be nitpicky, but it did seem like you were saying that sound was part of the electromagnetic spectrum. You can't say that, there are kids here, man.

Yeah, the book says it functions as a true ultrasound system, so that makes it work as a visual sense. This is why I say the book needs errata. It should not be visual, but the book says it is.


No, but by that line of reasoning, you should be able to use radar sensors instead then, as it is in the EM spectrum, and cybereyes work, why wouldn't radar?

*shrug* Maybe whatever carried the spell-targeting requirement only works over certain wavelengths. Maybe the "current"-gen radar system require too much processing and that destroys the component necessary for targeting. Maybe because having magicians able to target enemies through walls all the time would ruin the game, so all we need is a pseudo-plausible explanation so that we can have a reasonably consistent world in which to play a fun game.
I don't really care either way, I'm not part of the echolocation-as-spell-targeting argument. I was just saying that sound doesn't belong in the same family as EM radiation. You're talking spell targeting, I'm talking physics. I want no part of this mess.

But physically, theres on reason the radar system couldn't function as cybereyes that emit their own light (you know, like eye-light systems). Emit, receive, link established. Should work.

I do agree radar would be overpowerful. What would echolocation targetting do... let makes target things easier in smoke. And let them target invisible people without astrally perceiving. Neither of which I think is game breaking.

It would let you MANABOLT UNBORN BABIES!
And, realistically, with enough computer power behind it ultrasound should let you see through a lot of non-sound-proof walls. With distortion, of course, since the sound will change speed and refract (or is that diffract, I always confuse those two. Both, I think) as it passes through different materials. But I don't think the SR description of ultrasound includes anything about any of that.

KILLING BABIES!

Just so I have it correctly:

Tarantula noticed that three items of essence-paid 'ware works like another eye-mod in the RAW. None of the three items is itself an eye-mod. He wanted to know if a mage could cast with the combo.

I understand all the real world and logical explainations why it should not work, and personally I don't think it should.

But as a GM I might be willing to allow it without a rule or errata to the contrary. Why? Because you paid essence for three bits of 'ware, and the benefit is minimal.

As a parent, I'd give some of you a time out. No one is calling anyone's mother an ork. A little civility on everyone's part goes a long way.

No, it's not Eyeware anymore.

Both Ultrasound and Radar Sensor are Headware.

And that is the real reason that mages can't use Ultrasound/Radar to target spells.

That is why radar/ultrasound don't work.

Obviously bio ultrasound can't use a computer generated composite representation, as there is no computer. Which is why it should work with the way the books are worded now.

No, that is just the justification that Synner used on these boards.

Oh, and even the bit of Synner's post that you quoted still does not support the idea that echolocation can be used to target spells because it isn't the computer processing that frags spell targeting, it's the fact that they use a non-visual sense in the first place.

And kittens!

But but but it references the rules for ultrasound VISION. See, it has VISION in the word, so it must be eyesight. Nevermind that Echolocation starts and ends as an acoustic sense for spatial perception. Nevermind that it only uses those rules when you improve your voice and your hearing. It still auto-magically becomes SIGHT because it references the rules for ultrasound VISION! Which is an EYE mod (even though it's not, and simply housed in a cybereye to make projecting the acoustical data easier for you rather than completely rewiring your brain to accept the new spatial perception like Echolocation does)! So, you see, it's clearly a VISION enchancement in your EYES for improving your line of SIGHT. It's a flawless argument (if you ignore everything else, including common sense)!



It's like arguing with an ostrich.

I also love the new argument. "Well, it's not unbalanced to allow it, so I'm cool with it." It's not unbalanced to let hearing, taste or even smell to target spells either, yet those aren't valid methods for determining line of sight. Hell, it's not even unbalanced to let electronic magnification or goggles with low-light vision or thermographic vision from working either. But, shockingly enough, they're not valid forms of line of sight, too.