Yup. You just made my sig.

Your players can't identify with 'selfish' characters, and yet, if they're not the center of the damned universe they'll start harrassing you into running another game?

That makes me smile.

because it captures the first part of an answer beautifully. Your first post, treehugger, suggests that you see SR as anything but flexible -- or, at least, flexible only within the specific frame of what you have decided SR should be. You've decided SR can only ever be a series of isolated, unconnected, gritty runs, with any structural connection (such as recurring NPCs) the exception rather than the rule. Adamu accurately identifies that your interpretations about the nature of SR are just that: interpretations, not inherent within the nature of the game.

My overall interpretation of game environment happens to be almost exactly opposite: that runs are only the spikes in a fabric that cannot but be connected and integrated, both with backstory and with what's happening here and now. In short, even if the PCs never happen to meet a specific NPC ever again, both continue to influence their environments differently than if the meeting had never happened: and so the effects of that meeting continue to reverberate through the game world. (This is probably the major reason my single biggest SR resource is my NPC-dex, cross-referenced within an inch of its life.) It could be something as simple as one NPC mentioning to another (yet to be met by the PCs) something that had stood out about one of the PCs. (If you want to play with this, at the least it creates preconception [perhaps mistakened!] about the PCs; while at the most it could be something highly relevant to both the second NPC and the PC, perhaps even something from backstory that's about to come back and bite the PC.) It could be something as major as a world-shaking NPC decision that ends up being made differently because of the actions of the PCs. (Note that the change in decision could well be the key point that brings the decision within canon -- ie, without the PCs' involvement, a key plot point might never have gone the way it did.)

Looked at a different way: small or large, people don't just forget about memorable others they have met, and consequences don't just go away.

And yes, it is much more work than just running a series of disconnected runs: but the resulting world jumps sharply in richness and a depth of interwoven PC and NPC motivation that goes deeper than "because the Johnson said so". And who knows? Maybe all your players might also find that they prefer this.

You mentioned three key points.

Looks I'll gloss over quickly, except to say that the most looks-oriented player I've ever had was very much male and straight, to the point where he took a custom Edge of "Perfect Hair". (If you've ever seen Angel, you might remember Spike's rooftop commentary on this.) Personally, I like knowing what a PC looks like because so much of our RL interaction with others is based on our looks -- I'm always the weird one out here, because I can be talking with a person for hours and later have no idea what they looked like. (I'll remember them by what they said, and how they said it.) I'm just not RL visually oriented, and thus I've had to learn from scratch the role of looks in how people -- and (N)PCs -- interact. But we generally aren't neutral toward how another person looks. Ugliness brings out either cruelty or pity in us. Beauty can tinge every encounter with sexual overtones -- and that can be one heck of a complication when you're trying to keep a relationship professional (or even on a friendship level). Austin Powers alone should have taught us that no matter anything else, the mole can dominate everything.

I resonate most with the "epic story" and "colourful NPCs" points (though I don't see the second quite the way it's been presented), so I'll expand a little on those two.

Colourful NPCs is the shorter one to explain. I'll start from this quote:

because I see almost the opposite: that it's hard not to give them that aspect. In RL you don't just wipe from your memory the important-to-you people you've met, so why should that be the case in any game world? And we have the other side of exceptions -- that some might not want to ever be found again --which can create significant gaming opportunities on its own.

As to epic story:

So was Conan the Barbarian. So was Indiana Jones: who works for an academic ideal which pays him. So is every single PC ever hired by a king to slay orks. Heroism is not synonymous with either ethics or who happens to pay you -- although extremes may lead to the anti-hero instead: Firefly's Malcolm Reynolds constantly teases along this tightrope -- and he's absolutely a mercenary as well, aiming always to earn at least enough to stay free. (A ship needs money to run, after all.) You don't need lofty morals to be the key mover within an epic story. In fact, you don't even have to be the key mover yourself at all. (Although that's very much one of the harder lessons to learn: more on that later.)

Epic story is something really effortless for me, but for most others it seems to run very much against the grain. So many players of both genders have commented positively on what I do, here, that I've analysed it to a point where it might be generally translatable.

First of all, by "epic" I don't mean that you're a major mover and shaker in the world right from the beginning, or perhaps ever. One of the major games I've picked up again involved a street-level campaign which never had ambitions beyond street and is just about as gritty realistic as it gets ... but which is starting to be influenced more immediately by powers beyond the street. The PCs are responding: and the response itself will draw them into a greater world, and eventually into an earth-shaking one. Epic, here, begins with a slow character realisation that the gritty realism is not the be all and end all. Epic is a gradual thing, a storyline which can pick up an average character and draw them into the great conflicts of their time. Growth is crucial: in PC power but also in what PC experience actually means -- that the character has learned a bit more about the nature of the world.

Thus, while it's not essential, I do encourage PCs to start relatively low-powered and to grow within the context of the game (rather than to begin high-powered or specialised high-powered right off). Immediately that gives a hunger within the PC, to become powerful enough not to be a constant pawn of others -- while at the same time the world widens, steadily and inexorably.

But if every game deals with so-called "epic" elements on a regular basis and then abandons them with each run: well, epic starts to become meaningless. The classic example here is Harlequin's Back. You could run it as just another run ... or you could build to it over the course of a year, elements which keep uneasily suggesting that there might be more out there than the PCs ever suspected. And then, in a planned, brilliant unveiling: you show them -- just that little. And snap the curtain shut again. If they want more, they'll have to work for it -- but too much knowledge, too, is also an uneasy thing. Quite independent of how the PCs feel within a suddenly vulnerable world, people have been killed for what they knew before now.

The model I've found most effective is one I first identified in Buffy the Vampire Slayer: the series of widening circles, so I'll use that as the example. In each case, all events happen within the confines of the current circle and can be solved there: but the net effect of all events is to draw the character into the next circle. One of the best ways of doing so is, at each circle, to pull in a single recurring threat or influence from the next step up.

In BtVS, the first circle of influence and familiarity is the high school and high school only, and introduces the outside element of a city-trapped power. The second circle is the city of Sunnydale/mayor; and introduces the outside element of a slayer from an entirely different culture. The third is the university, which (through Riley and the operatives) draws it out to a national stage. With the introduction of Glorificus, the fourth brings it to a true world-shaking level: but the outside element here is personal acceptance of death. (The fifth circle in BtVS, transcendence of death and acceptance of what it really means to be alive, may be beyond an SR scope in most games.) The sixth changes the very nature of that world, in such a way that character retirement for the first time becomes a real possibility. And the unifying elements throughout are companions and family.

Any campaign can be built in a similar series of widening circles -- but only if you don't treat each isolated run and all the elements thereof as, well, isolated.

I mentioned it earlier and I'll touch on it now: one of the trickiest campaigns to run -- but which can be one of the most satisfying -- is where the lives of the PCs are constantly intertwined with one or more of the world's great powers, until finally they come to be in a position where they can influence or otherwise cause that power to make one of the great decisions of canon. (Canon isn't just an isolated timeline of facts. NPCs chose. The interactions of their decisions created outcomes which we know as canon history.) I'll toss this one out, in case anyone is playing within that timeframe: what -- or who -- made Dunkelzahn choose to run for president: and then not survive that presidency by a day? Why this way, and no other? Even -- who, at Dunkelzahn's direction, planted the bomb (in the face of intense secret service scrutiny)?

Initially the PCs shouldn't know, of course: at the level of the first circle it's sheer coincidence (really!) that a fair number of their runs originate from the same or similar or directly opposing sources. Eventually, though, they might start suspecting a common theme -- and maybe, in the interests of remaining free, they might decide to preemptively start searching beyond the first circle. (A carefully-placed and well-crafted NPC can really make or break this part: possibly even by specifically not telling them things they've decided they need to know.) After that: well, you've shaped out your levels of circles. Let each run give bits and pieces of the greater whole of the next circle: until finally they're faced with a world-shaking decision they might not want to make -- but may have to, regardless.

There's gritty for you.

*laugh* I have the exact opposite problem: it's a couple of the guys that are -- less than committed -- to regular playing sessions, and are instantly distractable when they they do turn up. (You might remember this from one of my two-years-ago threads.) I venture out on a limb and suggest that this isn't a gender-related thing, per se.

Individuals have different foci, of course. I'll assume the active SR4 group interaction threads have had wide general reading, so I'll use those as a springboard without reiterating those points. Here, I'll suggest that how to do something is important and endlessly fascinating -- witness the long long long list of spoilers (and unseen e-mails) in a certain active post-by-post game -- but why is at least as important. (And no: the answer isn't always "for the nuyen".) Focus only on one or the other, and some players will lose interest.

Elephant, room, nice!

up to the players to solve this problem.

this one's up to you. colorfull characters are easy. just post a thread asking for some. i'm sure the forum members will throw you some wierd ones.

the colorfull recurring characters are usually arch-villians, competition, or more importantly Contacts.

this one's up to you.
just because there's no large scale battles doesn't mean it's not dramatic.

try doing something like the movies "the Usual Suspects" or "Oceans 11"

where the scenes aren't nessecarily in order, and the players need to figure out what's going on. mystery adds epic-ness-ness.

you can't MAKE them enjoy the game, and frankly, if they don't enjoy thier characters they need to make ones they do enjoy. you can't fix it for them.

Mercurial has the runners bodyguarding a top rock star, and has a named dragon in it.

Dreamchipper is a favorite of mine and has a scene where the runners get to attend a swank party.

Harlequin's Back is epic and puts the PCs on historical type metaplanes. One is post apocalypse, another is the Wild West with dinosaurs instead of horses and a little steampunk, there is a metaplane in the Victorian era, I think there was a metaplane involving the Arthurian legends.

One Stage Before involves the rocker Jetblack, who has taken on Elvis status, or Eddie from Eddie and the Cruisers.

Divided Assets might bring out their maternal instincts.

"They?"

It's nice to have some guidelines that enable me to gear a game towards 3+ billion people accurately.

Seriously, there are general psychological differences between the genders, but unless you're dealing with a sample size of several thousand, it's probably best to avoid any preconceptions and pay attention to what's in front of you.This thread is very useful to me as I've recently started a game and am facing the same difficulty. In this case however, one of those who need a heroic slant to the Shadowrun game, is me (a male and actually the GM). I'm very likely to swap over to an Eberron - Iron Heroes mix instead. I too am having a lot of trouble getting the feel that the group needs from Shadowrun. Right down to the aforementioned "looks" issue. It's not about perfect cheek bones... it's about... elves in pale chitin armour and celestials with wings, etc. Hard to describe, but I know what the original poster is talking about. It's an archetype thing.

We are long over due for one of these anyhow.
Im also long over die for getting a copy of Harlequin's Back.

I sent this thread to my 2 most reliable players, whom are both female. Everything here is 100% right imo.

NOOOOO!!! Damn you Adarael! You beat me to the punch! Now the only hope I have is to sig that! But I can't because I'm stuck in 1999.



Kudos. <Grumbling.>

The sample size is quite large. Just type "yaoi" into google's searchbox and you'll find millions of such women, though this may be a slightly biased method.
But it isn't incorrect to state that the Yaoi genre is, with a few exceptions, almost exclusively written for women by women.

I think that it is much more fun to test their maternal instincts and introduce the Invae at the same time, with Missing Blood.

"You're the cutest little abomination, yes you are."

I know exactly what you're talking about!

And of course by "wiles" you simply mean b00bs right MFB?

Seriously though, sit down with the girls of your group before a session (hell have the rest of the guys sit in for idea bouncing) and hear what they'd specifically want to pull into the the "SR Universe" to make it more "fun" for them. You might get some overlapping ideas, or at least some give-and-take from both sides for a *gasp* compromise with out sacrificing the "SR Feel" or whatever that you have already.

We can spout out all the conjecture and pull random ideas out of our asses to appease you and your situation but unless you ask your players what THEY want, you'll be posting to this thread over and over again. Once you know what specific problems they have come back and address it with us again and I'm certain people will be more than willing to pipe in and give their opinions...

p.s. as a chick I like the backstories, the "downtime" of my characters as much (if not more so) than the actual runs themselves. I think Talia Invierno gave you a great example or at least a way to make it exciting in the previous posts for all players and more "appealing" to the women of your group. If nothing else, let the "epic" aspect of the stories build from there as opposed from the actual runs themselves.

When a man who looks like a lady loves another man who looks like a lady...

~J

there is nothing simple about the proper care and exercise of jubbly love bumbles!

<Sweating profusely Lazarus fights not to type a sexist comment. A little devil looking like Larry Flint pops up on his left shoulder.>

LFD: Come on do it! Type the Predator reference.

If it bleeds-

<A little angel looking like Tipper Gore pops up on his right shoulder.>

TGA: Shame on you Lazarus! Have you been listening to that awful Twisted Sister?

Lazarus: No Ma'am Cannibal Corpse.

LFD: Oh Stripped, Raped, and Strangled rules! Let's put on I Cum Blood.

Lazarus: Dude not now.

TGA: (Shocked Outrage) My word! No wonder you're having these nasty thoughts. You go and read Ariel Levy or Jessica Valenti right this minute!

LFD: They're both pretty hot! Hey so are you baby.

LFD saunters over to TGA and starts massaging her shoulders.

LFD: You seem tense baby. Why don't you let the Flint man stoke your love furnace.

Lazarus: (Sour Look) Dude that sucked.

LFD: F**k you punk! You can’t even type a slightly sexist joke on a blog where no one knows you in real f**king life without making some stupid ass skit about it. Which sucks a ** BTW! And stop using those stupid stars when type curse words. Have some balls man! Everyone knows what’re typing for f**k’s sake! See you did it again! God you suck!

TGA: Speaking of sucking.

LFD: Yeah baby.

LFD & TGA have a furious make session on top of Lazarus's computer desk. Disgusted and defeated Lazarus ends the post