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Slash_Thompson
QUOTE (DireRadiant)
Darn it, I have enough trouble just getting the guys to enjoy the game!

ironically,

I have an easier time getting girls into this game than guys. (both of my most successful groups have been half or more female, often including myself in the 'male' tally)

I think what appeals to most of the girls I play with is an opportunity to interact with a world that *isn't* all about demons and angels and anthropomorphized morality.

they really enjoy the people aspects of the game, that you have an opportunity to interact with a world that doesn't see you as 'the hero'. An opportunity to explore characters who -aren't- nice, who -aren't- heroes.

I knew a girl who, left to herself, would almost without fail play an ex-vory hitwoman on the run from the mob.

and another who would play a drug-addicted mage halfway to burnout.

most guys I know who play shadowrun, on the other hand, tend to play misunderstood badasses who feel and act like James Bond or Indiana Jones (heroes, if not the shining knight types).

I think the real key to getting females to enjoy a game of shadowrun is to focus on the immersive aspects of the world, rather than the disconnected technical play aspects of isolated individual runs.

this doesn't mean you need an ongoing super-plot, per se: just that you need to make sure the world feels consistent and non-static.


draglikepull
QUOTE (knasser)
Seriously, there are socially constructed psychological differences between the genders which differ depending on the time and place in which those people are found

Fixed.

None of the females in my group have ever complained about things like fashion or being mercenaries. They've generally enjoyed the same style of games that the males in the group have, though of course everyone has differences of opinion here and there. I've never seen anything to suggest that those differences have anything to do with the genitals any individual player has.

As for the dwarfs, trolls, orks not being good-looking or whatnot, I don't want to come across as harsh, but that's really more of a problem of lack of imagination than anything. Aren't orks and trolls just as attractive to each other as humans are to other humans? Why can't you play a gorgeous troll? They might not be attractive to humans, but within their own species they could be very desired.
mfb
i don't think it's accurate to say that the differences between male and female thought are all socially-constructed, when something as gender-specific as estrogen and testosterone levels can have such a profound effect on the mind.
Talia Invierno
Actually, both genders have both hormones.
Kagetenshi
Note the use of the word "levels".

~J
mfb
indeed. both genders have both hormones in different amounts; altering those levels can have profound mental effects.
draglikepull
I don't want to get into an involved political discussion here, but the vast majority of differences between men and women are socially constructed, and this is easily demonstrable by looking at the different roles men and women have taken on in different societies in different time periods. Hormones like testosterone don't play nearly as large a role as many people believe they do. For example, there have been studies showing that increased testosterone does not, contrary to popular belief, lead to increased aggression.

At any rate, whatever differences do exist, they aren't relevant to a game like Shadowrun. I think the fact that several people in this thread have female game players in their groups and have never encountered supposed "female" problems speaks to this.
hyzmarca
Studies have sown consistent, though minor, structural differences between the male and female brains. Further studies on the brains of transgendered individuals have shown that they have brains more similar to their assumed gender than to their birth gender.


http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm


While gender roles are socially construed, the fundamental biological differences, including differences in brain structure, most certainly or not.


In the game world, this doesn't matter technology exists that makes a complete sex change possible, though expensive, down to surgically altering the BST and changing swapping out one sex chromosome for another.

While playing the game, they aren't relevant because the small size of a game group would make it impossible to apply generalizations with any accuracy; the application of statistical generalizations only works when dealing with a very large group. But, if or Catalyst or Wizkids wanted a larger female audience, then there are changes that could be made based on statistical trends.
mfb
moreover, it doesn't actually matter in this instance whether gender differences are purely social constructs or not. normatively, they exist. deciding that they're purely social constructs doesn't make them go away.

the fact that several people in the thread have gamed with women and not encountered female-related game issues only means that all generalizations are false. you can't make a game that appeals to all men or all women (or even no men or no women). as a general trend, most gamers tend to be male--this certainly indicates that it's possible to make games that appeal mostly to men and mostly not to women. one assume that if you can create games that attract different genders, you can probably run games in such a way as to alter their appeal to different genders.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (mfb)
the fact that several people in the thread have gamed with women and not encountered female-related game issues only means that all generalizations are false.

A favorite expression of one of my co-workers is: "The singular of data is not anecdote."
smile.gif
Kagetenshi
I think it flows better the other way around ("the plural of anecdote is not data").

~J
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I think it flows better the other way around ("the plural of anecdote is not data").

~J

Sig!
Hocus Pocus
wait, wait, wait. Jump back a sec...

girl gamers? females? women playing a rpg? never heard of such a thing! girl gamers...oxymoron!

why would they wanna hang out with us pimply faced virgins who never take baths and who stutter and clam up the first thing when they actually notice and talk to us?
Sedna
[blank]
Talia Invierno
(Impressive computer crash just now, even by my standards.)

Fortunately for the relationship of data and anecdote, two players matching those criteria did once play with the earlier group I mentioned. At least one of them was not young either: think Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons.
knasser
QUOTE (Hocus Pocus @ Jul 14 2007, 02:33 AM)
wait, wait, wait. Jump back a sec...

girl gamers? females? women playing a rpg? never heard of such a thing! girl gamers...oxymoron!

why would they wanna hang out with us pimply faced virgins who never take baths and who stutter and clam up the first thing when they actually notice and talk to us?


Welcome to the 21st century. Era of gender-balanced gaming and socially popular role-players. If the culture shock is too much, I'm sure there are support groups somewhere. wink.gif biggrin.gif

EDIT: Two girl gamers in group, three males. Age ranges 21 to 36.
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE
why would they wanna hang out with us pimply faced virgins who never take baths and who stutter and clam up the first thing when they actually notice and talk to us?


rotfl.gif

Only knew one gamer like that, he ended up marrying my roommate. Hm. That may have been his reason for inviting me into the game. Sneaky little 'pimply faced virgin'. Athough, to be fair, age cured him of the first and marriage of the second. wink.gif

Just to give hope to all the gamers out there that fit said criteria... wink.gif
Hocus Pocus
support groups for ones with too much culture shock eh? hmmmm is it an all female group dressed up as shadowrun babes? (ie scantily clad hot chicks) then sign me up sir! i'm sure my "re-education" would be most "enlightening" *wink,wink*


when i was in my group last century, only 1 time we had a female. When she was introduced, the guy next to me leaned over to me out of earshot and said "there are actually GIRLS that play this game?" we had a good chuckle, and she brought tasty cookies too yummy! but i found myself having to rein in our witty banter and frivolous character tratis that fleshed them out. for instance Hocus Pocus on his down time would visit hookers, fun and such a potential for new plots to spring up, but through her mannerisms i took it she didn't like it so i stopped that. When we were gaming I'd often point out the hot college babes walking by the game shop downtown. Nope not that anymore. She lasted all of a month not without us guys bending over backward to make her feel welcome.

so you see, girls and games are just like oil and water, hot and cold, wife and sex. they just don't go together peeps, at least not in shadowrun i suppose.

this has been a message brought to you by your friendly neighborhood Hocus Pocus. For more info in the topic of girls and gamers please refrence "how to pick up that hot 18 year old catholic schoolgirl" by Amanda Hugenkiss.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (knasser)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jul 9 2007, 10:43 PM)
As Hyzmarca pointed out they instead want to hear about sexually ambiguous elves getting sexually harassed.


"They?"

It's nice to have some guidelines that enable me to gear a game towards 3+ billion people accurately.

Seriously, there are general psychological differences between the genders, but unless you're dealing with a sample size of several thousand, it's probably best to avoid any preconceptions and pay attention to what's in front of you.This thread is very useful to me as I've recently started a game and am facing the same difficulty. In this case however, one of those who need a heroic slant to the Shadowrun game, is me (a male and actually the GM). I'm very likely to swap over to an Eberron - Iron Heroes mix instead. I too am having a lot of trouble getting the feel that the group needs from Shadowrun. Right down to the aforementioned "looks" issue. It's not about perfect cheek bones... it's about... elves in pale chitin armour and celestials with wings, etc. Hard to describe, but I know what the original poster is talking about. It's an archetype thing.

Aha, but the vast majority of females burst into flame if they come within 20 feet of a gaming table. I'm talking about the extreme statistical minority of females who play and enjoy it. Perhaps they're not human females but rather vampires. HSSSS!
Vegas
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Aha, but the vast majority of females burst into flame if they come within 20 feet of a gaming table. I'm talking about the extreme statistical minority of females who play and enjoy it. Perhaps they're not human females but rather vampires. HSSSS!

Or we're zombies.

Mmmm Chips n' braaaaaaiiiiiins!
mfb
like salsa, only with rigor mortis!
DuckEggBlue Omega
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jul 14 2007, 02:52 AM)
But, if or Catalyst or Wizkids wanted a larger female audience, then there are changes that could be made based on statistical trends.

When I read this my immediate reaction was "Introduce Vampires as PC's.", but wanted to avoid the dreaded 'generalisation'. WR's recent post makes me think I shouldn't have worried.
fistandantilus4.0
He has that effect on people.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Vegas)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jul 14 2007, 09:32 PM)
Aha, but the vast majority of females burst into flame if they come within 20 feet of a gaming table.  I'm talking about the extreme statistical minority of females who play and enjoy it.  Perhaps they're not human females but rather vampires.  HSSSS!

Or we're zombies.

Mmmm Chips n' braaaaaaiiiiiins!

See, I knew there was a good reason for gamers to be terrified of females.
Bastlynn
O....kay, I'm not sure what some of you berk's are on about but... when I've run - it's been as simple as just running a *good game*.... it's the same rules as I would use for guys.
Fortune
Same with me. I've never really adapted my GMing (or gaming) style specifically to suit or accommodate females. I guess I could probably say the same thing in regards to younger players as well.
adamu
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
But, if or Catalyst or Wizkids wanted a larger female audience, then there are changes that could be made based on statistical trends.

Or, they could just make an annoyingly PC gesture such as constantly using female pronouns in the rule books.
Talia Invierno
Actually the writers mix, seems more or less 50:50. How dare they?
knasser
QUOTE (Fortune)
Same with me. I've never really adapted my GMing (or gaming) style specifically to suit or accommodate females. I guess I could probably say the same thing in regards to younger players as well.


Ultimately, a GM has to run a game in a way that would entertain him (or her) -self. It's the only thing that really makes a great game.
Slash_Thompson
QUOTE (Talia Invierno @ Jul 18 2007, 11:13 PM)
Actually the writers mix, seems more or less 50:50.  How dare they?

I believe adamu was referring to Wizards of the Coast, who uses exclusively female pronouns, except when talking about specific male character rules-examples. Even then, it's more common for the rules example to use a female character than a male character (since their character genders are slightly biased toward female characters having the rules intensive (rogue, wizard, paladin, etc) roles.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Bastlynn)
O....kay, I'm not sure what some of you berk's are on about but... when I've run - it's been as simple as just running a *good game*.... it's the same rules as I would use for guys.

You're lying to me. Why are you lying to me?

~J
adamu
QUOTE (Slash_Thompson)
QUOTE (Talia Invierno @ Jul 18 2007, 11:13 PM)
Actually the writers mix, seems more or less 50:50.  How dare they?

I believe adamu was referring to Wizards of the Coast, who uses exclusively female pronouns, except when talking about specific male character rules-examples. Even then, it's more common for the rules example to use a female character than a male character (since their character genders are slightly biased toward female characters having the rules intensive (rogue, wizard, paladin, etc) roles.

Hey, appreciate the generous defense, but to be fair I was indeed referring to the SR4 BBB and SM.

My personal impression has always been that female pronouns far outweigh their male counterparts in those books. But I'll be the first to admit that I've often wondered whether I don't simply notice the shes and hers while passing over the hes and his without them even registering (which is how it is supposed to work - see below).

If anyone has those books on PDF and could do a word count or something, I would be very interested in the results.

Personally, however, I think the gratuitous gender-leveling is a corruption of English, whatever the ratio. He is a masculine pronoun and, in English, it is also a neuter pronoun used for referring to people, animals, and anything else anthropomorphized. Tossing in a bunch of random shes is a distraction - the reader momentarily expects to be referred to a specific female individual, since however evil our patriarchal acculturation, we are not linguistically trained to recognize she as gender-neutral.

But my real problem with the pronoun thing is that it reeks of desperation. Sure, we all know a few women that play SR (and of those, some actually do it because they enjoy it, and don't quit as soon as they marry one of the male players), and five people will now post to remind us how many women are in their group. But the undeniable fact is that the substantial majority of players are guys, and for the books to imply that this is not so screams wishful thinking.

If the goal is to make female players feel "welcome" or "comfortable," no need to do it by pandering to them with a token linguistic conceit. They are strong enough they don't need it, and smart enough to know that such artificial coddling does nothing but reverse gains towards equality.

pbangarth
There have been lots of arguments made over the last few decades that language has enough power to direct thinking. So, the argument goes, if the language makes females invisible, females become invisible.

Whether one buys into this argument or not, SR is not alone in introducing the feminine into common usage, perhaps to countereffect past influences. Even if the effect is small, why not do it, for men as well as women? If a reader catches momentarily on the feminine pronouns, maybe continued exposure will inure him to that 'hardship'.
adamu
Point well made.

I tend to be pretty conservative in my views about artificially imposed linguistic drift, but I readily concede that if this effort makes the world a better place it is certainly worth a minor distraction when reading the rules of my favorite RPG.

However, as stated in my conclusion above, I am personally in the camp that feels accommodation does more to marginalize than equalize. Others feel different, and they have good arguments to make.

If the devs really are trying to do a good thing, power to them whether I agree or not.

Part of me suspects it's just a flaccid marketing gimmick, but I honestly don't know one way or the other.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (adamu @ Jul 19 2007, 09:35 AM)
If the goal is to make female players feel "welcome" or "comfortable," no need to do it by pandering to them with a token linguistic conceit.  They are strong enough they don't need it, and smart enough to know that such artificial coddling does nothing but reverse gains towards equality.

It isn't. WotC's target audience is 12-year-old boys who relieve their sexual frustrations by roleplaying slutty lesbians with other 12-year-old boys and pretending that the fact that they are all pretending to be girls somehow makes it not gay.
adamu
Sadly, that is just true enough that I had to laugh.

Which may be why I quit playing AD&D in favor of SR over a decade back.

In my own personal experience, SR has a much more mature player-base. Although there remains no shortage of the sort of thing you mentioned!

Which is all the more reason to thank our lucky stars for the women that do play SR.

Whicn in turn is all the more reason for me not to be so cynical about a few silly pronouns and the reasons they are there.
Talia Invierno
QUOTE (adamu)
If the goal is to make female players feel "welcome" or "comfortable," no need to do it by pandering to them with a token linguistic conceit.

Agreed. I'll admit, I did notice the shifts and I have no objection to them; but the near-exclusive use of male pronoun before didn't exactly cause me to throw down the book in disgust. wink.gif

I used to have access to that kind of word-specifying software, back when I was working on my graduate degree. I don't currently. I tossed out a guesstimate ratio, based on a few decades of editing experience during the times when pronoun gender was becoming relevant -- but really I don't find it one of the earth-shaking issues.

I'd prefer a true-neutral pronoun that can refer to a human being, like the Japanese have: but English doesn't currently have it. It has had something similar in the ancient past, one reason why there is such a bitter battle over the legitimacy of "they" in this context. However, for better or for worse, for these several generations we have had and will continue to have a "neutral" pronoun in "he/him". It's changed in the past before. Maybe it will change in the future again, who knows?
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
It isn't. WotC's target audience is 12-year-old boys who relieve their sexual frustrations by roleplaying slutty lesbians with other 12-year-old boys and pretending that the fact that they are all pretending to be girls somehow makes it not gay.

Just beautiful, hyzmarca -- made me laugh too. I wish I could say it was limited to 12-year-olds, in any roleplaying game.
Kagetenshi
Just as a note, Japanese doesn't have pronouns—they have something that's generally similar, but the differences are pretty big (you can modify them directly, for example). They're pretty much nouns, IIRC.

~J
Lofwyr's masseuse
Yo, female here. I can't say I would chuck out a book I liked because it used male pronouns, but I do in fact appreciate it when a book uses female pronouns as well. It's like saying, "Hey, you! Woman! This game is for you too!". "He" may be the default in English, but from a woman's perspective, I have to generalize that it's talking about me. I don't feel like it is first and foremost.

If men are the default audience of RPGs, who inherently like them and have social groups built around them, they will keep playing. Women don't have those incentives/excuses to play. Often we feel like outsiders in our gaming group for being women, as well as in the rest of the world for being women gamers, or just gamers. (Not in good groups, but not all groups are that good). The social makeup of the gaming world isn't going to shift overnight, but anything WizKids/WOTC/etc can do to make us feel like we're supposed to be here helps.

World of Darkness gets so many women to play in part because of the dramatic interpersonal/moral setting that a lot of women like, but also because they decided to go for attracting women gamers and acknowledge that women are a large part of their audience. (Unlike say, WotC's female pronouns) it doesn't feel so much like they're just throwing us a bone, but rather because we're expected to be here.)

In short, on what women (gamers) want: ask them. If it's so radically different from what the rest of your group wants that you can't compromise, tell them so, but if it's little things (fleshed out NPCs, more backstory, a moral compass) those are usually easy to integrate, and in fact they can be the impetus with their characters and backstories. Even in a gritty criminal game there's room for an idealistic young runaway who wants to be Robin Hood, or an elf whose lover was killed in AZ experiments and is seeking revenge (hopefully your people are somewhat less cliched, but you know what I mean)
Tiger Eyes
Could be that the use of female gender pronouns is because a female wrote and/or edited that particular part of that particular book... (or it could just be gender balancing, but still.) There are a fair amount of women writing for shadowrun. smile.gif
Prae
I agree. When I GM anything, D&D, SR, CBT... anything, I always do a test run with my players. Then, gender not withstanding, I ask for feedback, take notes, promise to implement it and then run another game later on with the changes. I do draw lines in things like, "Well, can't the SR universe be happier?" ... the answer is and always will be, "No." I may make it "easier" but not "happier" lol

As for the gender in gaming society thing, D&D gets a bad rap because it's D&D. I have a catch-all description for RPGs (Collective storytelling in an evolving... etc.), and learned long ago that if a person asks you what one of your hobbies is, you give "the pitch". If you just say, "I play D&D." which was the first game I picked up and played (still do, in most of it's incarnations) you will normally get an, "Oh. Right." and that's it. It was even worse for me because I grew up and learned gaming in a religion-heavy area. D&D was the "Devil's tool", but AZ blood magic and hookers with guns was totally ok.

I've GMed for quite a few new players of both genders by using SR as my example for RPGs. But after a few sessions, I ask them if they want to play other games like it, and in the list is D&D. The majority of them didn't even realize till that point that D&D and SR fall under the same catch-all I use. Definent eye opener for them.
draglikepull
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jul 13 2007, 12:22 PM)
While gender roles are socially construed, the fundamental biological differences, including differences in brain structure, most certainly or not.

I wasn't saying that there are not biological differences, as there clearly are, but that they are not known to lead to cognitive differences (that is, there is no conclusive evidence that any differences in brain size, structure, etc. lead males or females to think in different manners). Hormones like testosterone and estrogen, for example, are primarily involved in creating sexual differences between men and women (i.e. they regulate the reproductive system).

And it does make a difference whether or not differences are socially constructed. If they are, then trying to make a game that "appeals to female players" is reinforcing those roles, and is thus counterproductive. It drastically changes the question from "how do I attract female players?" to "how do I get past socially constructed roles?" That may sound melodramatic, and I'm well aware that most people here will probably ignore or ridicule it, but it's a very important difference.

QUOTE
I'd prefer a true-neutral pronoun that can refer to a human being


"They" is grammatically accurate, but a lot of people would probably find it awkward.

"If a player chooses, they may split their die pool in half" v.s. "If a player chooses, (s)he may split his die pool in half."
pbangarth
I don't know, draglikepull, I can't lay my fingers on a clear reference at the moment, but I do recall reading material that suggests injecting a whole mess of testosterone or estrogen into either sex causes behaviour changes.

In any case, whatever the source, women and men are different in the way they behave. There may be overlaps in the spread of behaviour, but there are differences. Why would it be wrong to target those differences, even if they are socially constructed? Is it better to say to a woman, "You are a social construct. Change to be more like a male social construct in order to fit this game," or to say, "Ok, what do you like?"
Kagetenshi
It's almost zen. Before you can play a game about tearing down the social order, you must first tear down the social order.

~J
hyzmarca
If that's true, then what must you do before playing first edition F.A.T.A.L. in a mixed-gender group?

Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
If that's true, then what must you do before playing first edition F.A.T.A.L. in a mixed-gender group?

That's just wrong.
Talia Invierno
@ Kagetenshi:
QUOTE
Just as a note, Japanese doesn't have pronouns—they have something that's generally similar, but the differences are pretty big (you can modify them directly, for example). They're pretty much nouns, IIRC.

Hmm. What would you call "boku" and "watashi"?
Wounded Ronin
If I remember my (pretty gruelling, actually) high school grammar lessons correctly, it's actually incorrect to use "they" when what you mean is "he or she" because of issues relating to singular versus plural usage. Whenever I write I usually try to avoid using "they" and use "he or she" instead if the latter is what I mean. It makes your sentences harder to compose but if we don't take a stand on grammar what good are we in day to day life?
Wounded Ronin
For the new posters appearing on this thread, I'll repeat my magnum opus on gender and role playing.

QUOTE

So, the whole gender influencing roleplaying and gameplay styles is a painful cliche exemplified by Sara Felton from Knights of the Dinner Table. (Although, supposedly Sara is based on Jolly's wife, who from her photo *looks* like she might be one of those character-interested players...) There's probably been a thread about it before. But, I wanna tell a story in which the cliches were totally exemplified by me (the male player) and two females who were playing. Don't worry, I'll tie it into Shadowrun.

So, first, The Story:
===================================
A friend of mine, knowing my love for 1st edition D&D and the orientalist cheesefest known as Oriental Adventures, ran a one-shot 1st edition D&D game for me. I was using an overpowered Oriental Adventures sohei, and we were all using 1st level characters. Because it was 1st edition D&D we actually rolled up 6 characters apiece, a la a Paranoia 6 pack, because we accepted that there might be PC blood flowing tonight.

Anyway, we start the adventure and the GM, in the spirit of 1st edition, is letting the dice fall where they may regarding weather conditions and encounters and so forth. But, like a good GM, he dosen't just name the monsters, but rather describes them without naming them.

So me, the male player, is classifying each monster in my mind as its entry in the D&D rulebooks and as a first level character my uniform response to most encounters is, "I run away." The women, however, are getting all interested in the creatures based on their description and are trying to see how they react and all this kind of flavorful character based stuff.

The GM, to his immense credit, didn't just make the monsters eat everyone, but rather had them react to the characters in interesting ways, which actually made for a more interesting game. But my character was running away the whooooole time.

The kicker was when in a dungeon setting the party encountered some zombies. He described the walking corpses so vividly that the women's characters were, like, shying away in revulsion. (He was really a terrific GM.) Of course, I thought, "FINALLY! Something I can kill!", and my character leapt forward like a hungry toddler to a plate of spaghetti.

So, the moral of this story: REAL MEN ROLL PLAY! RAAAHHHH!!!
============================

The Shadowrun connection:

I've noticed that in Shadowrun novels, generally speaking, novels about downtrodden Barrens kids becoming shamans or diffident teenage deckers becoming involved in something dangerous with a group of pros and manages to make it seem to be written more by female authors. On the other hand, high-powered troll fests with vampires and lesbian physads and dual wielded SMGs seem to be written more often by male authors. The same trend, see, but in even more comical contrast.

As a result, I've decided to write a short story representing what would happen if a female writer ever collaborated with a male writer.

Barrens kid: Man, my life is hard. I'm sure suffering. But I'm plucky.
*a team of shadowrunners erupt from the ground, wailing on guitars. Miniguns are slung on their backs and belts of ammo criss cross across their torsos in a stylish Vietnam War fashion*
Sammie: All my delta grade cyberware made it easier for me to erupt from the ground. I, uh, know kung fu, also. For when I shoot so many ninjas with my minigun that I run out of ammo.
Physad: I'm a lesbian elf!
Decker: I actually suck at combat, but I take advantage of the minigun's high rate of fire and the Cannon Companion suppressive fire rules to help the team. And to compensate for my lack of action hero-ness, I automatically win in the matrix.
Barrens kid: I also want to care for my baby brother, who is the last memory of my dear passed away mother. Oh my, what's this? I've been chosen by Cat. Yay, I'm a shaman! How comforting! I draw strength and faith from my totem.
Sammie: GEEK THE MAGE!
Physad: Hey cutie, I'm a lesbian!
Decker: I'LL NEVER GET WOMEN IN MY WHOLE ENTIRE LIFE BECAUSE I USE COMPUTERS! RAAH, FIRE MINIGUN IN RAGE!
Barrens kid: Nooo, I don't know how to cast invisibility or Physical Barrier or any of that crap because according to storyline I wouldn't have any reason to have any of these tools yet. But I can't die now, I have so much character development to undergo. Quick, I must appeal to the storyline!
Shadowrunners, in unison: WE HAVE A BIG KARMA POOL! REROLL FAILURES! REROLL FAILURES!
Barrens kid: Hmm, multiple hits for D damage, and I have Body 2 and Karma 1. *explodes into an unappetizing blend of Cat shaman goulash and swordfish mustardball*
====================================


Gender examined:

More generally, when reading fiction, I feel like in many cases I can sort of guess whether the author was male or female. It's hard to put my finger on it, and it's more of a gut feeling, but I'll try to characterize it. The female authors tend to have characters who are, well, nicer. You read about them, and you like them more. You feel more like if they were your friends you'd feel good having lunch with them.

I guess a good example of this would be the Ellis Peters character Brother Cadfael. Brother Cadfael is a medieval benedictine monk in England who solves mysteries using forensics. He's supposed to be this rugged badass veteran of the Crusades who has pwned countless people in battle before having his fill of violence and becoming a monk.

So, he could have been written in a number of ways. He could have been emotionally distant from everyone due to trauma. He could have been a juggernaut of visceral desperation, kind of like Howard's Conan. But instead he's at peace with himself, nice to people, helps young lovers escape, benevolent, and only clever and badass when he needs to be. So, like, if he were your neighbor, you'd feel warm and fuzzy about him, which wouldn't be the case with someone like Howard's Conan. A lot of times, when reading about male characters created by female authors, I find them to be ever so slighly on the effeminite side.

On the other hand, I think that male writers are more likely to be "turned on" by rugged badassery. Just look at the portrayal of Conan by John Milius in the film "Conan The Barbarian"; Milius was inspired by Zen-inspired ideals of rugged and individualistic martial strength. Conan, Rambo, and Dirty Harry appeal strongly to the imagination because of their combination of physical dangerousness but also mental fortitude in the face of danger or adversity. These are the characteristics that are articulated for these characters by the storyline the most. At the same time, there's nothing warm and fuzzy about any of these characters. They don't help young lovers escape, and if they were your neighbor they probably wouldn't be very comfortable dinner guests.

If you think about it, it's absolutely roll playing versus role playing. Cadfael presumably has really big stats because of the heaps of people he pwned during the crusades but he dosen't spend that time actually rolling his combat skills. Instead, he spends most of his time on inter-character interactions that largely wouldn't require dice rolls. In contrast, Dirty Harry spends a huge amount of time making Intimidate and Pistols (signature .44 magnum) checks.

This, of course, begs a question. Perhaps "roll playing" is not correctly conceptualized as an absence of character development. Perhaps "roll playing" is rather the representation of a certain masculine aspect of our collective cultural mythology, as portrayed in popular films and novels. Many people look down on straight up "roll playing", but is it really right to look down upon a certain archetypal cultural construct? Do we look down on the myths of Hercules because they're basically about him being big and strong, and say that the myth about Persephone is better and more correct because it has a lot of emotion but not a whole lot of combat rolls?

Perhaps "roll playing", which I define as munchkinization and systematic statistical analysis of in-game possibilities to chose the character's action, can be seen as the persuit of the perfect representation of a rugged masculine character. It's easy to *say* that your character is being rugged and tough, but how can your character truly be rugged and tough compared to all the other characters who were created with the same amount of resources? Perhaps you refine the rugged toughness of your character to a higher level of perfection through careful management of statistics, so as to portray the archetypal Clint Eastwood style hero better than the other people at the table are doing. And so, perhaps "roll playing" is not the absence of character development, but rather the refinement and perfection in the portrayal of one character type.

Here is an example. Suppose that in a role playing game I want to portray the hero of the Illiad, Odysseus. Odysseus was supposed to be a pretty powerful hero, but he was also supposed to be cunning, sly, and ruthless towards his enemies. So, in order to portray Odysseus, I first munch out in chargen to make him as powerful as possible. Next, any time my character makes an in-game decision, I have Odysseus make the best possible choice at any given time because I statistically analyze all possible outcomes. Am I not portraying Odysseus better than if he were only of average strength and made typical (but not optimal) decisions?

I maintain that roll-playing, done to a systematic and painstaking extreme, is anything but the absence of a developed character. Rather, it is the path to the refinement of the perfect portrayal of one part of our archetypal popular culture mythology.



From: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...t=0&hl=lesbians

The thread also had quite a good discussion going, if any of the newcomers want to go back in time and party.
Talia Invierno
QUOTE (pbangarth)
I don't know, draglikepull, I can't lay my fingers on a clear reference at the moment, but I do recall reading material that suggests injecting a whole mess of testosterone or estrogen into either sex causes behaviour changes.

Injecting a whole lot of any hormone outside the balance the individual organism has established is entirely likely to lead to behavioural changes!

But I'll agree with an earlier point in this thread: whatever if any differences are observed, it makes no difference for the purpose of this thread whether they are social or biological in origin. If biological, it's hardwired. If social, RPGs are usually picked up far past the age where those changes would be moulded (before the age of 5). Evidence exists for both sides, the final picture may be far more complex than we can imagine currently -- and still it won't make any real difference for dealing with the here and now.

"They" is a curious thing, precisely because it is currently evolving back to an earlier form. The examples the Wikipedia article gives reference Shakespeare and some middle English. The etymology actually goes back even further, right to the first emergence of Old English as an independent Anglo-Saxon language.

The classical high school rules of grammar are valid enough, so far as they go -- after all, such attempts to codefy rules did lead to something resembling a common spelling -- but the next time someone tries to force them as an unbending absolute, it's always interesting to point out the counterexamples in Shaw, Twain, and even Shakespeare.
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