huh. I hadn't considered it that way before. Hmm... I'm going to think on that for a bit. Thanks!

From Burning Chrome, right?

I do like it, yes -- but that description does invoke the experiential "fluff" issue again: "it" being something that doesn't have to be evolved in-game, but can be had right from the beginning of the game. (Possibly along with the extreme level of "pre-game" experience?) It doesn't have to go to the opposite extreme of bildungsroman to allow for development in-game.

In the other, "mechanical" half of the issue, it's an interesting point Glyph makes that a specialist with low Edge might not be a dedicated specialist -- which would tend to bring chargen non-specialist attributes and skills even lower to non-existent. This suggests that a non specialist focusing more heavily on Edge will tend to have adequate skills across a broad spectrum of skills, at a level comparable to the specialist on the relatively few occasions when it is actually needed. (Consider that the specialist isn't really tested, the vast majority of the time: which suggests that adequate skills for all those times would be, well, adequate, for anyone.) There's a flexibility to these kinds of characters which doesn't exist anywhere else. What value you place on that flexibilty will depend largely on the tone of your game.

It's accepted that it's only really in the long-shot that Edge fully supercedes skill: and there's been a few workarounds suggested.

Btw one thing that hasn't really been addressed is why Awakened and technomancer PCs will always on average tend to have lower Edge than mundane PCs. The Mr Lucky mage template still shows a strong hit taken not only to Magic but also other skills in order to max out Edge: far stronger than with other PC types. Within Glyph's image, it's almost impossible to create a viable dedicated magical specialist at chargen. Using Glyph's image (which, again, I do like): why wouldn't chargen Awakened and technomancer PCs typically have as much "it" as mundanes?

Nowhere in the RAW does it say that chemical detectors are capable of picking up hormonal factors. At effectiveness levels, the concentrations involved for anything hormonal are another factor of 1000 smaller than anything chemical.

People do give off pheromones naturally also. It's not at all like a chemical that's not supposed to be there. Nothing in the RAW indicates any degree of chemsniffers being able to sort out one hormone from another of almost the same kind.

(Although a chemical seal would protect you, of course.)

As a curious note, it's almost impossible to discuss SR4 in complete isolation from all that has gone before. Not that we're not apparently trying.

See p. 254. A difference in threshold is something substantially.

Game balance, pure and simple. And as long as you're attaching "PCs" to all of those, it's all fine by me.
If you're asking why do mundanes have more edge than awakened, then the answer may well be that they don't. Everyone in the SR world is not built with the same number of BP, and the world isn't fair.
The PCs are, however, part of a game, and that game should be fair, thus mundanes get more edge than awakened because they have the BP to spend.

In other words, I don't think the mundanes-with-more-edge-than-awakened is really reflected in the game world, just in the PCs, and that's pure game balance.

Similarly, 50% of the 6th world population is not comprised of hot elf lesbians, despite what looking at PC populations might lead you to believe.

Right...but, uhh, after 6-8 times (in a time period determined by the GM's fiat, more or less), how much does it MATTER? Outshooting someone 6-8 times is generally enough to do the job, don't you think?

Heretic!

The exact suggestions is:

It won't help Mr. Skilled regain edge left and right.

It's not a matter of "insisting" on seeing Edge a certain way -- it's a matter of it being presented to us in the rulebook as luck.

Personally, I prefer to see it thought of as that "something" deep inside that gives us the will to succeed and survive...but, well, that's much closer to how the RAW describes and defines Karma Pool than Edge. It's an interpretation I like, though, don't get me wrong.

Actually, as James McMurray pointed out, the rule occurs for any critical success that you weren't expected to make. Spending/Not spending Edge has nothing to do with it. If you just got a point back for every critical success, then Mr. Lucky would be constantly regenerating his Edge-- spend a point, dramatically increase his odds of a crit, and regain that Edge point. Even as it stands, it's just as likely that Mr. Lucky will regain Edge as would Mr. Specialist.

That's part of the other problem: High Edge characters unbalance the game. Low Edge characters are always behind the curve. If Mr. Lucky Faceman runs out after 4 sessions, how rapidly does everyone else run out?

My experience has been that you go through 2-3 Edge per session. (Usually less, for me in a Missions game.) If the normal characters have an Edge of 2-3, they're going to be out by the end of the first session, and have nothing left for the other 3 parts of the run.

I think i see what you are getting at here, and i like it...(if its indeed what im thinking)

Take Samurai Jon and Samurai Joe. Jon has a 5( Agility, Automatics(SMGs)6(+2), and a smartlink, giving him a pretty whopping 18 dice when he uses said gun. His Edge, however, is at a base 2. However, due to all of Joe's BP going to resources and a few other things, his other firearms skills aren't as hot(Pistols and Longarms at 3 each.)

Joe has a 4(6) Agility, and Firearms Group 4. However, his Edge is maxed 8(he's Mr. Lucky, and he does damn good for himself). He also has smartlinked guns, giving him a respectable 12 dice to fire normally, which is 6 less than Jon.

Under normal circumstances, Jon trumps Joe in Automatics by 6 dice, and even in the other guns by 1 die each(8+3=11+smartlink, etc=13). However, Joe can add 8 dice, 8 different times, to his rolls, allowing him a pretty scary 20 dice when he needs them, for all the guns, and 8 different circumstances is alot. He can make longshots more often. He can pull his butt out of the frier more often than not. And he has enough of it, that he doesn't have to be as ''careful'' when he pulls out his ''big guns'' so to speak.

Jon, on the other hand, probably isn't going to be popping his 2 edge too often. He can also pull out 20 dice on his speciality...but only 15 on the other guns. And he probably won't ,make those longshots as often. And yet again he might just want to suck up the misses and save his luck, grit, guts, whatever you want to call Edge, for when he really, really needs it.

In this example, i don't think Joe is infinitely better than Jon, under normal circumstances, Jon's got the advantage. But when things get hairy, Joe is going to probably be coming out on top.

Now, bringing up the original question of Karma pool vs. Edge, in these backgrounds, Jon might be a younger, fresher to the shadows fellow, who can definately do what he does well, but lacks experience.(ie, a fresh karma pool in SR3) Joe you can picture as the more hardened fellow, been around the block a few times, seen a quite a bit(in SR3's terms he'd have a decent karma pool indeed).

Basically, SR4 lets you trade some things off for being able to actually play that more experienced character. There were times, i admit, in SR3(while i still prefer it a bit more, but thats for other discussions), i had trouble picturing my 39 year old merc who has seen a hell of a lot in his time with his 1 karma pool, and some skills that were just as high as his 24 year old brother's. However, in SR4, said 24 year old brother might have same high skills, but lack that edge-that experience, that the older, more experienced, streetwise person has.

Long story short, the Edge system in SR4 is something i actually enjoy alot. I LIKE being able to make folks of differing experience levels. Ive met 17 year olds who were black belts(say 5(+2) unarmed(something or other), but they lack something that 50 year old master might have(in the form of a very high Karma Pool/Edge.)

I can see an argument for them running out at about the same rate because they spent their BP on a bunch of skills and/or other boosts instead of 2 edge points, so they don't need to spend edge as often.

If the game is such that everyone's making tests with huge penalties left and right, that goes out the window, but that would be, at least from my experience, a nonstandard game.

According to this book quote, Mr. Lucky is not an acceptable character. Ms. Lucky would be acceptable though.

In practice, that doesn't happen. If one person's spending Edge, than odds are that everyone is as well. If you have secondary skills or no skills in a certain area, you just let the experts handle it. For example, even though Mr. Lucky has a functional Fast Talk skill, he leaves the heavy negotiation and delicate social interactions to the team face. He might need to blow an Edge to even out his Fast Talk skill wiht the Face, but he doesn't have to as often.

I think you guys missed the example I posted, so let me repeat. A troll heavy weapons specialist can reasonably be expected to be throwing 20 dice in his specialty. If he throws a full-auto burst, he'll be down to 2 dice. Even if he spends his Edge of 2, he'll only be at 4 dice: an expected result of 1.33 successes, rounded down to 1. Mr Lucky, with his Edge of 8, would have an expected result of 2.66 successes, twice as good as the specialist. We can therefore see how luck trumps skill on a reliable basis. And it'll happen as often as the troll fires in full-auto.

But can a troll heavy weapons specialist reasonably be expected to be walking around without any recoil compensation?

edit: Curses, beaten again!

Too slow, by at least a fraction of a minute!

No, there is just a disconnect on the 'reasonable' level.

We agree with you that the longshot rule is broken.
Let's remove it, and see ho Mr. Lucky goes full auto, then.

Because any recoil comp the troll might have, Mr. Lucky could have as well. Recoil compensation just complicates the example. In any case, Mr. Lucky will still end up with more dice when he pops Edge when we're discussing full-auto.

Actually, that example didn't involve longshots, at least on the part of the troll.

A Strength of 1 isn't such a hot idea either, but I see lots of builds with it. Fact is, some attributes are more valuable than others: Quickness is more important than Strength for a ranged combat character, for example. Edge just happens to be a lot more powerful than the regular attributes, at least at the high levels.

That's a bit like saying there isn't much difference between Quickness 5 and Quickness 7. That costs 55 BP too; yet I don't see people saying the difference is insignificant.

That could result in characters with lower edge running around. But it could also result in characters with other lower attributes instead. A general pressure on attributes doesn't help unless there's a reason why the first attribute to give way would be Edge.

The thing is, Cain is right. Mr. Lucky is better from a mechanical point of view in usual games. And this jars with most of us because we want talent and training to matter more than luck. If you use Edge in the way that Cain has done, then it outshines other attributes so I feel the best way to deal with it is to not allow it on the same playing field as them. Set it at a low starting point and give it a fixed progression for all characters. That way all min-maxing is limited to the normal skills and attributes that we're all comfortable with being min-maxed.

Per. p.254:

If it can't distinguish an individual, it certainly can't pick out tailored hormones over regular hormones. Later in the same paragraph:

Note that this only says that such individuals are easier to "scent", not that tailored pheromones can be identified from non-tailored pheromones.

So while I should have specified being able to distinguish hormonal factors rather than simply detect: I stand by tailored pheromones not being detectable by standard chemsniffers by RAW.

Yes ... and we all know how much we like explanations which have no other logic than to maintain game balance

Somewhere (I think) in the "How often do you use Edge?" thread, it was mentioned that while the mundane PCs seemed to go through that much (and this answer was very consistent), the Awakened PCs would invariably burn through twice as much.

Not overlooked, but not commenting to the rest of the numerical examples and give-and-take: really, at this point I don't have anything to add that hasn't been said by someone already.

Awakened and Technomancers should not burn through Edge as much as mundanes as long as they fulfill the same roles within the team. I'd say the Awakened would need to use more than 2/3 of what mundanes require.

Everyone relies on natural ability. I've yet to see a character who didn't rely on natural ability + skill in his prime areas. You can't take the natural ability out. In that regard, Mr. Lucky is no different than any other character. Which is rather the point: Mr. Lucky isn't any weaker than any other comparable character, he's just more powerful whenever Edge gets involved.

Which may explain our differences. However, I take it that you concede that the difference between a Quickness of 5 and a Quickness of 7 is significant? That's the answer to your question-- why we see those last two dice as significant.

In addition, the difference between 6 dice and 8 dice is an avegrage of one extra success if you roll, or the ability to *buy* two successes if you're just showing off. The ability to buy an extra success is really important to some people, and mathematically can get very significant.

For example, let's assume Sam the Sam and Mr. Lucky have both been reduced to 1 die for a task. Sam has an Edge of 6, so when he spends a point, he ends up with 7 dice to roll. That averages out to 2.33 successes, rounded down to two. Failing that, he could simply buy 1 success. Mr, Lucky could buy two successes, or roll and get an expected 3.0 successes. There's a potential difference of 2 successes here.

Once again, that doesn't happen in theory or in practice. Mr. Lucky has all his bases covered, either through his carefully-selected skills or skillwires. Honestly, it's cheaper and smarter to buy a lot of low-use skills via skillwires than it is to learn the skill.

But, hey, I'll toss it open to you. Create a character with an Edge of 6 who's significantly more well-rounded than Mr. Lucky. You might give him a few more skills, but I bet you can't give him many more skill *areas* than he has currently. (The current writeup lacks any Technical skills, which is fine since he's not a decker or a techie. That's about the only area he doesn't have covered, and I left that out on purpose. )

That's wrong. One is configuration, the ohter quantity. The RAW never says that those sensors aren't able to measure quanitity, just that they aren't able to distinguish configuration (though someone with the sniffer-implant is, with per Perception rules) - and per RAW, it is a great difference, worth a threshold step.

So the troll heavy weapon specialist with a total of 9 points RC would roll 20 dice and Mr. Lucky would roll 8 + agility -1, assuming he didn't have the skill. How does Mr. lucky get more dice?

From the wording I'm guessing you're basing your statement not on personal experience, but on how you think it should work. The only actual examples we've been told on-board suggest otherwise. Now it could well be that those examples are statistical aberrations, but until I hear any counter-examples, I see no reason to classify them so.

There is at least one logical reason why spellcasters specifically might burn through Edge more quickly than mundanes: in that spellcasters always risk taking damage (drain) from their own weapons (spells). This is not the case with mundanes.

Glyph -- this statement strongly implies that life itself isn't a learning situation, and that combat doesn't sharpen learning ability for those who are able to survive its steep learning curve.

And thus my original question would apply to them also. In fact, it applies even more strongly in that by the rules as written, any broader skill base at high-functioning levels at chargen must necessarily be inversely proportional to Edge. Unless you do make that assumption that skills are primarily learned through abstract learning rather than from intense real life situations, this doesn't make sense.

Actually, both are primarily configuration (hence "distinguish"). Wrt threshold, both might be taking quantity into account, or perhaps tailored pheromones are just easier to detect (all other things such as molar concentration being the same). The text tells us only that the threshold is lower, not why. Nowhere in the description of tailored pheromones does it imply that the person releases greater quantities of pheromones than normal.

If something is easier to detect than something else, then there's a mesurable difference, indeed.