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toturi
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Somewhere (I think) in the "How often do you use Edge?" thread, it was mentioned that while the mundane PCs seemed to go through that much (and this answer was very consistent), the Awakened PCs would invariably burn through twice as much.

Awakened and Technomancers should not burn through Edge as much as mundanes as long as they fulfill the same roles within the team. I'd say the Awakened would need to use more than 2/3 of what mundanes require.

From the wording I'm guessing you're basing your statement not on personal experience, but on how you think it should work. The only actual examples we've been told on-board suggest otherwise. Now it could well be that those examples are statistical aberrations, but until I hear any counter-examples, I see no reason to classify them so.

There is at least one logical reason why spellcasters specifically might burn through Edge more quickly than mundanes: in that spellcasters always risk taking damage (drain) from their own weapons (spells). This is not the case with mundanes.

Spellcasters take Drain from their spells, yes. But it has been my experience that spellcasters have more (Drain Attribute + Willpower)/3 than Drain Value. Awakened need not cast spells, they can stick to their mundane weapons, whatever weapon the mundane can use an Awakened should be able to use as well, hence "fulfilling the same roles within the team" or if the role is to sit there and provide Counterspelling. While 2/3 is an estimate based on my own experience, it may not be so, but I believe that the Awakened PCs go through less Edge than their Mundane counterparts.

From my own experience:

Adepts tend to have so many dice in their area of speciality that it is difficult to imagine them absolutely needing another 8 more from Edge.

Mystic Adepts and Magicians dice pools may vary, but even then they tend to have (Drain Attribute + Willpower)/3(or even 4) > Drain Value. In my games, I have not seen a Mystic Adept or Magician Glitch for a long time.
Talia Invierno
QUOTE
Awakened need not cast spells, they can stick to their mundane weapons, whatever weapon the mundane can use an Awakened should be able to use as well, hence "fulfilling the same roles within the team" or if the role is to sit there and provide Counterspelling.

Of course, to use those mundane weapons, they really should have reasonable skill levels in them and the comparable attributes: which takes away both from magical skills and Edge. If they choose to have only a nominal level, this significantly increases the chances of glitching, especially given the number of times a gun is likely to be fired during the average skirmish.
Cain
QUOTE
But how could you lower his Edge to 6 and not be able to make him more well-rounded? That's 55 points to spend on skills (or you could spend 46 on skills, and 9 added to resources to get 5 rating: 3 activesofts).

Don't just tell me, *show me*. I don't think you can. I experimented with a couple of builds, and the 8 Edge was just as well-rounded as anything else.

QUOTE
And 55 points is a LOT to spread around. A full maxed skill group of 4 with 15 points to spare(thats a skill of 3 with a specialization). It's the maxed amount of Resources with 5 BP to spare. It's 5 more attribute points with 5 to spare. It's 2 skills at 5(+2), with 11 more points to spare. It's significant points.

Again, show me. Other than branching into technical skills, there's not many areas Mr.Lucky *can* branch into that he doesn't already have covered. He's actually a three-trick pony, with high pistols, high Edge, and the skillwire samurai trick. He's got all his bases covered, he's a weapon specialist, and he's got the high Edge to turn himself from good to horrifying. While theoretically he could use more skills, in practice he doesn't really need anything more. In fact, I'm debating on *dumping* a skill for Mr. Lucky 1.1.
toturi
QUOTE (Talia Invierno @ Jul 14 2007, 02:19 AM)
QUOTE
Awakened need not cast spells, they can stick to their mundane weapons, whatever weapon the mundane can use an Awakened should be able to use as well, hence "fulfilling the same roles within the team" or if the role is to sit there and provide Counterspelling.

Of course, to use those mundane weapons, they really should have reasonable skill levels in them and the comparable attributes: which takes away both from magical skills and Edge. If they choose to have only a nominal level, this significantly increases the chances of glitching, especially given the number of times a gun is likely to be fired during the average skirmish.

Even if they have the mundane weapon skill at a nominal level, my experience is they won't glitch. Not with Guard.

QUOTE
Again, show me. Other than branching into technical skills, there's not many areas Mr.Lucky *can* branch into that he doesn't already have covered. He's actually a three-trick pony, with high pistols, high Edge, and the skillwire samurai trick. He's got all his bases covered, he's a weapon specialist, and he's got the high Edge to turn himself from good to horrifying. While theoretically he could use more skills, in practice he doesn't really need anything more. In fact, I'm debating on *dumping* a skill for Mr. Lucky 1.1.


In order to do that, we'd need to know what skills is he skillwiring? Or do we assume every skill that can be chipped? Right now, off the cuff, I'd say he desperately needs Perception. Even chipped, he has only 7 dice for Perception, an iffy number to me. 7 + 3(active enhancement) - 2(distracted) = 8(barely adequate and I haven't included any Visibility Modifiers yet, you know those things everyone does to make the spellcasters life difficult?) Every combat specialist needs at least 8 dice of Perception(after all positive and negative mods are added) else the risk of friendly fire or collateral damage becomes likely. He might get Lucky and manage to avoid shooting the wrong person this round but next round, does he want to get Lucky again? Perception checks in combat can be a real bitch and given Lucky's Pistol dice, well, he better not shoot a friendly/hostage/innocent bystander. Unless you got a way to designate targets via AR, I would recommend Perception.
Cain
QUOTE
Right now, off the cuff, I'd say he desperately needs Perception. Even chipped, he has only 7 dice for Perception, an iffy number to me. 7 + 3(active enhancement) - 2(distracted) = 8(barely adequate and I haven't included any Visibility Modifiers yet, you know those things everyone does to make the spellcasters life difficult?)

Well, for one thing, he's got almost every concievable vision mod in either his contacts or his glasses. (They stack biggrin.gif)

But beyond that, if he knows he has to make a perception check, he can shut the skillwires off, in a "Use the Force, Luke" moment. In that case, he'd end up with 14 exploding dice for the check. All the time? No. But when it counts, he's as good as a perception specialist.
toturi
Yes, but just because he can Perceive now, doesn't mean he can still Perceive as well later and with everyone moving around, it is a new Perception check every Combat Turn, you got how many Edge? Perception is one of those checks that can reasonably be spammed by a GM, you do not use edge for Perception. And the mods only mitigate some of the penalties, not all of it. A Pedestrian threshold of 2 and the Visibility Mod of choice, Thermal Smoke, has no -0s, the least is a -2. 8-2=6 and you are going to have to roll and if you glitch, you better hope you got a friend with the Guard spirit power, because you think that granny over there may be a bad guy.

Intuition 4 + Edge 8 + Enhance 3 + maybe Observe in Detail 3 - 2 for Thermal Smoke = 14

And when it counts, he still isn't as good as a Perception specialist, because a Perception specialist is meant to counter an Infiltration specialist who can get 5 hits on his Infiltration on average(without Edge use) and still hit you with dice pool penalties besides. Against Infiltration spec, you'd need 15+(on average rolls) or 20+ if you are buying. 14 exploding is ok, but nowhere as good as 23 or a 29 exploding with Edge 6, more than twice 14 if I might add.
James McMurray
toturi, you will not chance Cain's mind on Edge. If that's your goal, give it up and save yourself some typing.
Tarantula
QUOTE
The team's van is barreling up to the waterfront, only to discover their target's speedboat is already a klick out to sea, dodging its way at full speed through the Seattle waterfront traffic. The troll sam shouts: "Drek! I can't get a bead!" So, Mr. Lucky grabs the HMG from the troll, which he can barely lift, and takes a shot.

The conditions are bad: Extreme Range (-3), Partial light (-2), With Glare (-1) and Heavy rain (-4, this is Seattle, after all). Mr . Lucky is in a moving vehicle (-3) as is his target; the GM assigns an additional -3 to reflect the boat's speed and pitching. The target has total cover (-6), and since Mr. Lucky only has the vaugest idea what he's shooting at, he gets the -6 Blind fire penalty. To make, matters worse, MR. Lucky has two Serious wounds, for 9 boxes on both monitors (-6). He's never even picked up an HMG before (-1), but the thing is already set to full auto; so he goes for a narrow burst (-9, doubled to -18 because it's a heavy weapon and the gas-vent system is fouled due to an earlier critical fumble).

Mr. Lucky is at -53 to hit. He could try to aim, but since there's no point, he simply hauls the thing into the general direction and fires. He has a negative dice pool, so he spends a point of Edge, giving him 8 dice to roll. He could simply *buy* two successes with that; if he were to roll, he'd average 2.66 successes, rounded up to 3. Since his target is an average wageslave, he only has his Reaction of 3 to defend with, which will average one success-- not enough. And since Mr. Lucky called for a Narrow Burst, there's simply no way the target can soak.

On the one hand, this is a valid lucky shot. On the other hand, this is incredibly broken, an exploit running all the way down to the heart of the core mechanic. Not only can Mr. Lucky outshine a specialist in his specialty, he can do it eight times a game.


I'll actually run through this with a weapons specialist (elf, not troll, if you want to compare to mr lucky whos a human (for the edge) so let the weapons spec be elf (for the agi).

First, I'm going to ignore your "the gas vent is broken" because your weapons specialist would have definately put his 1 edge towards keeping his gun hes good with in working order.

Modifiers you have:
Extreme Range (-3)
Partial light (-2)
With Glare (-1)
Heavy rain (-4, this is Seattle, after all)
moving vehicle (-3)
as is his target; the GM assigns an additional -3
The target has total cover (-6)
-6 Blind fire penalty
two Serious wounds, for 9 boxes on both monitors (-6)
never even picked up an HMG before (-1)
narrow burst (-9, doubled to -18 because it's a heavy weapon and the gas-vent system is fouled due to an earlier critical fumble)

I'll put up the basics of the weapons specialist, since I'm not really feeling like statting out the rest. Yes, he'd be a one trick pony, at shooting things very dead. Oh, and since the example uses the HMG, I'll assume availibility of 15 is ok.
Race: Elf
Qualities: Aptitude (Heavy Weapons)
Agi: 7 (10)
Cyber/Bio:
Wired 2
Muscle Replacement 3
Damage comp 5
Reflex Recorder (Heavy Weapons)
Enhanced Articulation
Skill: Heavy weapons 7 (MGs)

Gear: HMG w/smartlink
Goggles w/ all vision enhancements.

Now, back to the modifiers.
Extreme Range (-3) Negated by using a take aim with vision magnification
Partial light (-2) Negated by low light vision
With Glare (-1) Negated by Flare Compensation
Heavy rain (-4, this is Seattle, after all) Reduced to -2 by low-light
moving vehicle (-3)
as is his target; the GM assigns an additional -3
The target has total cover (-6) Total cover and Blind fire are one and the same. (SR4, 140, Ranged combat modifiers table)
-6 Blind fire penalty
two Serious wounds, for 9 boxes on both monitors (-6) Damage comp 5 negates these to -1 each. Total of -2.
never even picked up an HMG before (-1) Has skill, doesn't apply.
narrow burst (-9, doubled to -18 because it's a heavy weapon) Negated by the 10 points of RC on the gun.
Total penalties now? -2 for rain, -6 for the vehicles moving, -6 for blind fire, -2 for the wounds. Total -16.

Now, for our roll, we get att + skill + bonuses - penalties.

Agi (10) + Skill (9) + SL (2) + Take aim's (4) + Tracer ammo on full auto (3) - 16.
10 + 9 + 2 + 4 + 3 - 16 = 12. 12 > 8 for Mr. Lucky. Heavy weapons specialist wins.

Oh yeah. Mr lucky could use the recoil comp too, and use his luck on a -35 pool instead of -53. Give Mr. Lucky the goggles too, and hes at -27 instead. No matter how much gear you give Mr. Lucky to help out his pool, he doesn't have the skill, and will be defaulting no matter what. Give him the damage comp, and it drops to -23. Though, I doubt he has the essence for them. Even if he chips in the skill, it won't be enough, so he has to use edge to try.
Cain
QUOTE
First, I'm going to ignore your "the gas vent is broken" because your weapons specialist would have definately put his 1 edge towards keeping his gun hes good with in working order.

With an Edge of 1, he'd probably have spent it long before the critical fumble that fouled his gun. Probably on one of toturi's perception checks. cool.gif Which, if you're comparing characters, throws your biggest difference out of the window.

Secondly, you're missing the point of the example. Mr. Lucky could have all those vision enhancements as well (and, in fact, does. You can stack contacts and glassses you know, and escape the social penalties for wearing goggles.) The point is to show the brokenness of a longshot test. Let me bring up the classic example, which a lot of people whinge about. So, I'll preface this by reminding everyone that *this is just an example*, so quit yer whining.

Here's my classic example: Mr. Lucky needs to take out the Citymaster chasing their van, so he aims through the window at the driver. (Specifically aiming at a passenger, pg 162, not a called shot yet.) He's using an AVS (8P-f), and our modifiers are as follows: -2 recoil, -3 extreme range, -3 for being seriously Wounded, -3 for being in a moving vehicle, -6 for his target having total cover, -1 for his cover, and -2 for the light rain. To top this all off, he calls a shot to bypass the armor of both the vehicle and the driver. Assuming the driver was in heavy armor with helmet, that's an additional -12, and then we factor in the Citymaster's armor of 20. That's a total dice pool penalty of -52. It could be worse than that-- Mr Lucky might not have a pistols skill at all-- but it's largely irrelevant, since there's absolutely no way he's going to have a positive dice pool. He now spends a point of Edge. 8 Edge = 2.66 successes, which rounds up to 3. The driver can't use his vehicle skill to dodge, since he was specifically targeted; and he requires a Perception test at -6 to even notice that he's been hit. Assuming that the driver has a body of 3 (his armor has been bypassed, so the AP penalty of the flechette round does not apply), he'll be taking an 11P wound, and will likely score 1 success-- not enough, he'll be taken out instantly. The vehicle will now need to make a crash test: it has a threshold of 3, using a Pilot of 3, and a handling penalty of -1. It fails, crashes, and likely kills everyone inside.

See the point? He's taking out armored personnel carriers with a /flechette pistol/. This goes beyond Luke and the Death Star, this is completely ludicrous. Yet, by the RAW, it's not only legal, it's easy.
odinson
Would that work? the called shot for bypassing armour specifically states that it ignores the targets armour and the section for attacking passengers says that they get the vehicle armour as well as personal armour. Seems like the personal armour is the targets armour and they would still get the vehicle armour.
Glyph
I agree that that's broken - if someone is abusing the longshot rules to regularly throw 8 exploding dice at situations where the modifiers would normally be in the -30's or more, then some rules adjustments may be needed (assuming that an OOC discussion doesn't work, and you are either unable or reluctant to throw the offending party out of the group yet).

On pg. 69, under "Grittier Gameplay", one of the options is that when defaulting or making long shot tests, count 2's as well as 1's for determining glitches. That would make those pure Edge rolls riskier.

Other possible fixes, entering house rule territory now:

1)
Limit long shot tests by saying they can only be used if the negative modifiers, after reaching zero, are not greater than the character's Edge. So Mr. Lucky could only take long shots if the modifiers went to -8. Or you could even make the cutoff point double Edge in negative modifiers (so -16), since you only want to limit the most egregious abuses. If you don't want to make it tougher for characters with lower Edge, replace it with an arbitrary cutoff point (such as -12).

2)
Limit long shots by saying that for every, say, 4 points of negative modifiers below zero, the threshold raises by one, even for tests that normally only need one success.
odinson
And the dice aren't exploding when using the longshot rule. See page 68 on edge use.
Ddays
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE
First, I'm going to ignore your "the gas vent is broken" because your weapons specialist would have definately put his 1 edge towards keeping his gun hes good with in working order.

With an Edge of 1, he'd probably have spent it long before the critical fumble that fouled his gun. Probably on one of toturi's perception checks. cool.gif Which, if you're comparing characters, throws your biggest difference out of the window.

Secondly, you're missing the point of the example. Mr. Lucky could have all those vision enhancements as well (and, in fact, does. You can stack contacts and glassses you know, and escape the social penalties for wearing goggles.) The point is to show the brokenness of a longshot test. Let me bring up the classic example, which a lot of people whinge about. So, I'll preface this by reminding everyone that *this is just an example*, so quit yer whining.

Here's my classic example: Mr. Lucky needs to take out the Citymaster chasing their van, so he aims through the window at the driver. (Specifically aiming at a passenger, pg 162, not a called shot yet.) He's using an AVS (8P-f), and our modifiers are as follows: -2 recoil, -3 extreme range, -3 for being seriously Wounded, -3 for being in a moving vehicle, -6 for his target having total cover, -1 for his cover, and -2 for the light rain. To top this all off, he calls a shot to bypass the armor of both the vehicle and the driver. Assuming the driver was in heavy armor with helmet, that's an additional -12, and then we factor in the Citymaster's armor of 20. That's a total dice pool penalty of -52. It could be worse than that-- Mr Lucky might not have a pistols skill at all-- but it's largely irrelevant, since there's absolutely no way he's going to have a positive dice pool. He now spends a point of Edge. 8 Edge = 2.66 successes, which rounds up to 3. The driver can't use his vehicle skill to dodge, since he was specifically targeted; and he requires a Perception test at -6 to even notice that he's been hit. Assuming that the driver has a body of 3 (his armor has been bypassed, so the AP penalty of the flechette round does not apply), he'll be taking an 11P wound, and will likely score 1 success-- not enough, he'll be taken out instantly. The vehicle will now need to make a crash test: it has a threshold of 3, using a Pilot of 3, and a handling penalty of -1. It fails, crashes, and likely kills everyone inside.

See the point? He's taking out armored personnel carriers with a /flechette pistol/. This goes beyond Luke and the Death Star, this is completely ludicrous. Yet, by the RAW, it's not only legal, it's easy.

I see you're ignoring the section in called shots that say GM decides if the vulnerable spot is accessible.
Glyph
QUOTE (odinson)
And the dice aren't exploding when using the longshot rule. See page 68 on edge use.

Ah. My bad.

8 dice are still a bit of a problem in situations like those Cain has brought up, though. Question for Cain, though. Since you have actually played this build, have any insane situations like this actually come up? Or are these only hypothetical worst-case scenarios?
Tarantula
QUOTE (Cain)
Secondly, you're missing the point of the example.  Mr. Lucky could have all those vision enhancements as well (and, in fact, does.  You can stack contacts and glassses you know, and escape the social penalties for wearing goggles.)  The point is to show the brokenness of a longshot test.  Let me bring up the classic example, which a lot of people whinge about.  So, I'll preface this by reminding everyone that *this is just an example*, so quit yer whining. 

If you actually had bothered to read my post, I did give him ALL the enhancements that the heavy weapons specialist had. Mr. Lucky was still at a -23 to hit. Please show me where you can stack contacts/glasses? As far as I'm concerned, if you have thermo on your contacts, and are wearing glasses, your thermo shows you glasses which are slightly above room temp in front of you, and thats it. Heat doesn't pass through glass nearly well enough for it to be considered transparent.

QUOTE (Cain)
Here's my classic example: Mr. Lucky needs to take out the Citymaster chasing their van, so he aims through the window at the driver. (Specifically aiming at a passenger, pg 162, not a called shot yet.) He's using an AVS (8P-f), and our modifiers are as follows: -2 recoil, -3 extreme range, -3 for being seriously Wounded, -3 for being in a moving vehicle, -6 for his target having total cover, -1 for his cover, and -2 for the light rain. To top this all off, he calls a shot to bypass the armor of both the vehicle and the driver. Assuming the driver was in heavy armor with helmet, that's an additional -12, and then we factor in the Citymaster's armor of 20. That's a total dice pool penalty of -52. It could be worse than that-- Mr Lucky might not have a pistols skill at all-- but it's largely irrelevant, since there's absolutely no way he's going to have a positive dice pool. He now spends a point of Edge. 8 Edge = 2.66 successes, which rounds up to 3. The driver can't use his vehicle skill to dodge, since he was specifically targeted; and he requires a Perception test at -6 to even notice that he's been hit. Assuming that the driver has a body of 3 (his armor has been bypassed, so the AP penalty of the flechette round does not apply), he'll be taking an 11P wound, and will likely score 1 success-- not enough, he'll be taken out instantly. The vehicle will now need to make a crash test: it has a threshold of 3, using a Pilot of 3, and a handling penalty of -1. It fails, crashes, and likely kills everyone inside.

See the point?  He's taking out armored personnel carriers with a /flechette pistol/.  This goes beyond Luke and the Death Star, this is completely ludicrous.  Yet, by the RAW, it's not only legal, it's easy.


Now, to your example:
No problem.
QUOTE (SR4 @ 158)
If an attack’s modified DV does not exceed a vehicle’s modified Armor rating, then the attack automatically fails.

It doesn't say only for attacks against the vehicle, just in vehicle combat. Which is what this is. Since your AVS has a might 8P vs the citymaster's 20 armor. You do nothing. The end.
Ddays
I can only really see longshot being abused with called shot rules, since the 8 default die can really screw over any well armored character and create improbably situations.

BUT, called shot rules states that GMs decide if vulnerable spot is accessible, so if the guy is in an armored van behind bulletproof glass or any other fully covered vehicle, he can easily just say no to that particular shot.

I would also rule that weapon ranges at the peak end of extreme stop being improbably and are impossible, so instead of "reducing dice pool" they just remove the chance for success. In which case, longshot doesn't grant you any real bonuses.
Cain
QUOTE
I see you're ignoring the section in called shots that say GM decides if the vulnerable spot is accessible.

QUOTE ("Cain")
Let me bring up the classic example, which a lot of people whinge about. So, I'll preface this by reminding everyone that *this is just an example*, so quit yer whining.

nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE
QUOTE
If an attack’s modified DV does not exceed a vehicle’s modified Armor rating, then the attack automatically fails.


It doesn't say only for attacks against the vehicle, just in vehicle combat. Which is what this is. Since your AVS has a might 8P vs the citymaster's 20 armor.


Highlighted the appropriate word for you. Since he bypassed its armor, the modifed armor rating is zero. You lose. The end. rotfl.gif

QUOTE
8 dice are still a bit of a problem in situations like those Cain has brought up, though. Question for Cain, though. Since you have actually played this build, have any insane situations like this actually come up? Or are these only hypothetical worst-case scenarios?

Worst I came up with was a -18, when he had to take out a heavily-armored troll. Bypassing his armor (and there was described a slot under the chinstrap) really racked up the penalties. So yes, high-penalty rolls can and do come up.
Rotbart van Dainig
And, yet again: The Longshot Rule.
Congratulations, you have proven again that any rule that allows shortcircuting penalties is broken.

But... how does that prove that Mr. Lucky is broken? Everyone can abuse the Longshot Rule.

Cain
Because -18 isn't a longshot for Mr. Lucky, at least with pistols. By the chargen writeup, he'd be at 1 die. Which means skill doesn't matter yet again, since once you're reached low dice, it's the Edge bonus that'll decide if you make the shot or not.
Rotbart van Dainig
The Citymaster is a Longshot, even if the Troll isn't.

Saying that skill doesn't matter is wrong, however, because if he hadn't said skill, he wouldn't be at that level of dice, and thus at a lower pool when adding Edge.
So there is nothing wrong if Edge makes the difference - that's what it's made for.
ElFenrir
It's Longshots that are a problem, by the looks of things, not Edge. Remove the Longshot problem, and Edge suddenly doesn't look as bad(not that I personally had a problem with it before).

It's like saying this one particular Pistol does too much damage, so you remove the entire Pistols skill. Just fix up the underlying problem, if you feel there is one, and there you go.

Perhaps i just have never seen a game broken open by Edge. I see it as a tool to make a character of varying luck/experience levels so everyone isn't a stock ''wet behind the ears noob'' runner.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE
QUOTE
If an attack’s modified DV does not exceed a vehicle’s modified Armor rating, then the attack automatically fails.


It doesn't say only for attacks against the vehicle, just in vehicle combat. Which is what this is. Since your AVS has a might 8P vs the citymaster's 20 armor.


Highlighted the appropriate word for you. Since he bypassed its armor, the modifed armor rating is zero. You lose. The end. rotfl.gif

The vehicles armor is still 20. You aren't attacking the vehicle. You are attacking the character, who gets to add the vehicles armor to his armor for the test. Characters armor is 12 + 20 (for vehicle) and reduced to 0 by called shot. Vehicle armor still remains 20, and still nullifies your shot. You aren't attacking the vehicle, and thusly your called shot doesn't affect the vehicle, only the passenger to which you are attacking.

Now, you could simply attack the vehicle instead, doing a called shot to bypass the 20 armor. In which case, the attack would be effective. And the citymaster would get its 16 body to resist your 8P flechete attack.
Cain
QUOTE
Characters armor is 12 + 20 (for vehicle) and reduced to 0 by called shot.

Oh! I see! The modified armor rating is zero.

It doesn't say the total armor rating, it says the *modified* armor rating. No amount of doublespeak will change that.
Tarantula
Yes, the modified VEHICLE armor rating. Not the modified PASSENGER armor rating. Modified passenger armor rating is 0. Modified vehicle armor rating is 20.
TheDrake
The rules read "When a shot is called, either of the following may occur, at the player’s choice and with the gamemaster’s agreement." Therefore, with the flechette v. Citymaster scenario above, the GM should say "No, you can not bypass the vehicles armor. Come up with a more reasonable result from your called shot and I may allow it." It's really simple.
mfb
QUOTE (TheDrake)
The rules read "When a shot is called, either of the following may occur, at the player’s choice and with the gamemaster’s agreement." Therefore, with the flechette v. Citymaster scenario above, the GM should say "No, you can not bypass the vehicles armor. Come up with a more reasonable result from your called shot and I may allow it." It's really simple.

we know we can houserule it, man. the fact that it's broken enough that it needs to be houseruled is Cain's point. but houserules are never simple, since they require each and every GM to decide for themselves whether or not to use it.
TheDrake
That's not a house rule. That's RAW.
mfb
sigh. fine. we know that the GM can use his discretion on it, man. the fact that it's broken enough that the GM has to use his discretion is Cain's point. but using GM discretion is never simple, since it requires each and every GM to decide for themselves whether or not to use it.

better?
James McMurray
Really, jeez Drake! What's wrong with you? Expecting GMs to think! You should be ashamed of yourself.
mfb
that's not at all what i--or he--said. i said that GM discretion is not a simple issue, and i said that everyone is aware that GMs can use their discretion. saying "GMs should just not allow X" is not telling GMs to think for themselves, it is telling GMs to not allow X.
Ddays
I guess my point would be that the raw does cover for the possibility of overpowered called shots combined with longshot rule with the GM discretion line.

If a GM wanted to have a spot of fun with the whole lucky shot through a window of an armored car, straight into unprotected face region, it's actually not that bad.

Hell, an edge 3 or 4 guy could just as easily make that shot if the driver is unaware, it hardly requires edge 8 to work (just less likely)

However, there does lie the option to lay some GM smackdown without being too overtly unfair (Having some RAW text supporting your actions really cuts down on the whining of the rules lawyers)
mfb
the RAW basically says "figure it out yourself". part of the point of this discussion is helping GMs figure it out.
Rotbart van Dainig
So there are two conclusions:

First, since penalties are limited, characters with a dicepool greater than their total sum are broken.
Second, since Longshot Tests approach a positive constant, they are broken.

Remove broken. The End.
toturi
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
So there are two conclusions:

First, since penalties are limited, characters with a dicepool greater than their total sum are good.
Second, since Longshot Tests approach a positive constant, they are better.

Enshrine the good, canonise the better. The End.

Corrected.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
So there are two conclusions:

First, since penalties are limited, characters with a dicepool greater than their total sum are good.
Second, since Longshot Tests approach a positive constant, they are better.

Enshrine the good, canonise the better. The End.

Corrected.

It's called a quote because one does not change the content.
toturi
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
So there are two conclusions:

First, since penalties are limited, characters with a dicepool greater than their total sum are good.
Second, since Longshot Tests approach a positive constant, they are better.

Enshrine the good, canonise the better. The End.

Corrected.

Misquote fixed.

Now, where was the mispelling?

What misquote? Canon is never wrong.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (toturi)
What misquote?

Whatever.

QUOTE (toturi)
Canon is never wrong.

True - it tells you to change every rule you don't like. So every rule is canon.
sunnyside
I was wondering when toturi would show up. This whole "everybody agreeing" thing with the crappy wording of the longshot rule was freaking me out.

I've been away a little bit but the thing in all the edge stuff that actually does bug me is the stepping in for the specialist bit.

Now if you curtail longshot in any way, via houserule or liberal application of dropbears to the offender, it isn't that the lucky char is better than the specialist.

It's simply that if a skill only comes up rarely the lucky char can perform as well as the specialist using their edge, as the specialist can without it.

For example lets say someone spends 55CP on maxing edge and another spends 60 on buying, say, the influence groub up to 4 and charisma up to the soft max.

If all the face does in a mission is one negotiation roll with the J and a fast talk on a guard the lucky char could simply step in for them. They have two more edge, so there are two uses.

Now I suppose that's a bad example, becuase a properly played face would be using their skills for all sorts of stuff. Probably a dozen or two rolls a mission. So at that point lucky is left in the dust.

But what about other less commonly used skills?

Eh maybe it isn't a problem. The lucky is still rolling with the risk of a critical glitch they can't cancel, and they can't use edge again to up a bad roll, nor to further enhance it.

toturi
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jul 15 2007, 11:41 PM)
QUOTE (toturi)
So you can come kiss my canon ass.

No problem.

QUOTE (toturi)
Canon is never wrong. It even tells you to change the rule that changes the rules that you don't like.

Right you are.

Thank you.

QUOTE
I was wondering when toturi would show up.
I was in a hospital with a fever that could cook an egg. But never fear, Canon is here to save the day!
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (toturi)
I was in a hospital with a fever that could cook an egg.

Glad to see you will be better.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
So there are two conclusions:

First, since penalties are limited, characters with a dicepool greater than their total sum are broken.
Second, since Longshot Tests approach a positive constant, they are broken.

Remove broken. The End.

How are characters that are able to reduce penalties and still be effective broken?

Longshot tests aren't better than a specialist at their specialty, which I showed with Cain's motorboat & HMG example.
Cain
QUOTE
Longshot tests aren't better than a specialist at their specialty, which I showed with Cain's motorboat & HMG example.

Which you showed by whinging and changing the example until it showed what you wanted. Not with logic and common sense and basic intelligence. (What is the opposite of basic intelligence, anyway?). Trying to wriggle around the definition of "modified" is also telling.

The point here being, I could come up with examples from here til next year, and the conclusion would be the same. Longshot tests are broken, and Edge can outshine a specialist a little too often. And that's not even counting sime of the other uses for Edge, such as the fact it resolves Initaitve ties, allowing Mr. Lucky to be just a little bit faster. Or the fact that Mr. Lucky could survive 9 successive direct hits by THOR shots. And we won't get into the low-edge paradox, where they can get critical successes for cheap.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Tarantula)
How are characters that are able to reduce penalties and still be effective broken?

Think about why Bloodzilla flying through space is broken. wink.gif
Ddays
The thing is, the lucky guy can only outshine the specialist on an impossible shot if he uses longshot.

That thematically makes sense since a shot of that difficulty might just require more luck than skill to make.

If by one too many times, you mean exactly 8 times before a run is over, then I'll just have to say that I'm not seeing the broken. Maybe the situation just doesn't require a weapons specialist who can consistently take out goon after goon.
mfb
QUOTE (Tarantula)
How are characters that are able to reduce penalties and still be effective broken?

that's not quite what Rotbart said. he said it's broken when characters have enough dice to still be effective even if all the penalties are applied.
James McMurray
I could be wrong, but if you're getting hit with a THOR shot, let alone 9 of them, your game has a lot bigger problems then Edge.
Critias
QUOTE (Cain)
(What is the opposite of basic intelligence, anyway?).

Acidic intelligence, of course.
Talia Invierno
Explains why confronting the two is such a salty proposition.
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