Actually, I think it opens a Knowledge skill. With a level 3 mnemonic enhancer, that was suddenly four extra dice that could be rolled (SR3) as a complementary skill.

But (sigh) one point of karma every twenty does add up. Our games don't stop at 20 karma.

Ok there are two angles to have issues with edge.

1. Fluff.

2. Mechanical.

To me edge is essentially a form of magic that mundanes can use, and is somewhat "tangable" (dragons can mess with it for example, in previous editions I think you could gamble with it on the metaplanes, in earthdawn people almost understood it at a numerical level). However now people use it but don't understand it. Hence it tends to be a little capricious (a youngster may have plenty, someone in their midlife may not have developed it any more).

Therefore I have no fluff issues.


Mechanically I use longshot with my NPCs, but I don't like that it ceases to be affected by modifiers. The situation of a super longshot hasn't come up and I'm still discussing a houserule for it with my players. Personally I hope it doesn't really come up.



Otherwise I find the mechanics work well with at least edge up to five. I think it adds to the game instead of detracting. I haven't had a true Mr. Lucky, but I think they have to give up so much on the quest for edge 8 or 9 that I'm not overly worried about them being "broken" compared to an edge 5 person. I'd be more worried about them being totally one dimensional, or heavily min/maxed, but that's a general problem not an edge specific problem. I don't anticipate trouble with an Indiana Jones char.

i really, really don't like the Edge-as-magic thing. i mean, maybe some individual almost-Awakened characters might have magicalish Edge effects, purely as fluff, but as a general rule, oh hell no Edge ain't magic. Edge (and karma) can be affected by any number of things--random chance, experience, whatever--but in and of itself, Edge is an intangible, and ought to be no more potent in SR than it is today. that is, you shouldn't be able to accomplish anything with Edge in SR that you couldn't accomplish in a modern-era game that uses the SR rules.

Hmmm. Just noticed this thread. I've posted about this elsewhere, but the first thing I did when I came to the edge rules, was to fix the rate it could be gained at. Humans start with two points, metahuman's one. At ten points of karma, you get another point of edge - free! Then after the next twenty points of karma, you get a second, so humans have three and meta's two. You can see where this is going... another forty points, and you get your next one and so on.

Someone here described it as the worst houserule ever because it returns things to the way they used to be. Which is the point. Starting characters are vulnerable and they have to survive on their wits. The game has a gritty feel and it's important to set the tone at the start of a campaign. After someone has been playing a few games, it's nice that their character gets a bit of insurance to prevent losing them to bad luck or happenstance. It's only when a character is very much established however, that they get that Legend Effect.

For me, it plays out perfectly and it even stops the infinite Get Out Of Jail Free card that makes characters indestructable when they burn a point of edge to avoid death and then re-buy the Edge next session. If a character cheats death in my game, you can be sure it's going to cost them.

The progression might not suit everyone as the upper limit takes quite some getting to. So you can use the same system and adjust it, but I actually think that the balance is just right. The system is also extremely simple.

It certainly turns edge back into a fallback tactic, rather than allowing it to be the mainstay of a character. I'm happy for a player to design a character that is an expert shot or a master of dark arts, etc. I don't like the character concept to be "I just bumble along and everything works out."

-Khadim.

My solution to the Longshot issue is to count any voluntary modifiers (ie called shots) against the edge rolled. This should stop people putting their dicepool sub zero by calling to avoid armour and then longshotting to get a some dice to roll.

Ok so mfb and knasser would you say that you actually have a fluff problem with edge in SR4 not a mechanical one? i.e. it isn't that you think edge is broken or doesn't play well.

It is that, whatever it is that edge in SR4 represents, it does NOT represent experience. And what you want is something that DOES represent experience in some way. So you don't like it, and therefore houserule it.

Ophis: Even that wouldn't be effective in many cases. Let me give you a modified version of mfb's example, which I've posted before:

Jeez, you go away for a year and when you come back Cain is still bitching and moaning about the same things! LOL

Easy fix: don't be a dumbass when making a longshot test.

Harder fix: Invent house rules to ensure that PCs cannot be dumbasses when making longshot tests

so, wait, people running their own games at home are allowed to modify the rules to suit their style of play? STOP THE PRESSES

Sure: House Rule: GM tells players being dumbasses to STFU.

No, I don't have a rule that covers every possible longshot abuse and doesn't involve banning long shots. The problem with trying to invent such a rule is based in the persistence of dumbasses. Either the player wants to be a dumbass, and will find a way; or he doesn't, and you don't need a rule.

In the face of persistent dumbassery I would ban longshot tests. It's simple and it gets the job done, despite being a grenade aimed at a mosquito.

Yay, old adversaries. Thanks for keeping it almost civilised

This has been a good thread so far. Please check year old grievances at the door, and discuss the matters at hand with civility. Knock off the baiting before it moves beyond a smiley. Thank you, have a nice day.

I do believe that's the first time I've ever been moved into that social group!

Thanks, Cain, for the explanation.

Or you can look at Edge as Edge, not Karma Pool, not only as luck, but Edge. I do not see what is the issue with beign able to start with a high Edge out of chargen. Humans are not faster, stronger, or tougher than any of the meta-races, but they have an Edge that helps them to keep up with the others. The positive quality Lucky enhances that Edge -fluffwise, it is how people view people with very high Edge. I do not have an issue with luck trumping skill or high Edge characters trumping other characters in their specialities when it counts. In fact, that's the way I think it should be. Otherwise, they won't be Lucky! What they shouldn't be doing is trumping specialists in their fields everyday. There is no cyberware or bioware or magic that can enhance Edge.

Well, I think of it as magic but basically I'm with torturi.

I have no issue with "front loading" edge any more than any other high stat. At least up to edge 5 I've had no problems whatsoever with it and find it enhances the story.

I don't have a problem with the trumping thing either. Especially since a specialist could use their own edge. Since the specialist should be rolling more die in the first place they should come out the same if not better. after the edge. If their dice pool isn't that much higher to start with they aren't much of a specialist comparatively are they?

I guess it could stink if they just had an edge of 1. But if you minimize a stat expect trouble when that stat becomes relevant. It's like whining when your str 1 char gets engulfed.

Also if you find yourself having troubles you may be refreshing edge too often.

I think one of the biggest differences between SR3 and SR4 is that the power level is a lot more truncated - it's a lot closer to the top power level. Edge instead of Karma Pool is merely one more way of expressing that.

I'll admit I'm of mixed feelings on that. Part of me thinks the power curve is too narrow, and wants to use things like Frank's house rules on skills to make more of a spread between a starting character and an experienced one.

Another part of me likes how the playing field is leveled, and the big boys and prime runners can't simply crush everyone else, but have to struggle and use their cunning and resources to stay on top of the food chain.

I don't think Edge is broken, although it's possible that some GMs may need to house rule longshot rules. One possibility: you can make a long shot if your dice pool is zero or less, but only so much less - minus six, for example - for the long shot to be possible. That would get rid of the most egregious abuses.

If the GM's problem is that he or she thinks Edge should be earned with experience, rather than picked at char-gen, then I think Knasser's house rule from earlier would be the best one to use. It's elegantly simple and easy to use.

Do you always quote replies while omitting what was replied to?

i don't know of any runners who run to gain experience. most runners i see run to make money. if gaining experience is a character's main goal, then yes, statting them up with maxed Edge might not make much sense.

This begs for a spin-off thread. But for now: what does money represent to the runners you see?

Editing to include the Beowulfs, Sams, McCauleys, and Batous of the gaming world into the second question:

Would your group still play if you took away karma improvement entirely? and left only money, or whatever their primary motivation is, in the equation?

Someone asked me for a Mr. Lucky the Mage. Here's what I came up with. Let's assume he's a tradition with Intuition as the main attribute. This was done using Daegann's 1.1, so if there's any mistakes, let me know.

Body: 3
Quickness: 3
Reaction: 4
Str: 1
Cha: 3
Int: 4
Logic: 2
Will: 4

Edge: 8
Magic: 4

Edges/Flaws:
Lucky
Apt: Spellcasting
Magician
Sensitive System*
SINner (normal)*
Incompetence x 3*

*(Yes, I know some people are going to deride these choices as munchkinous. They're just easy examples, so get over it.)

Skills:
Summoning (Your choice) 3
Binding 3
Counterspelling 3
Spellcasting (Your choice) 7
Pistols (Semi auto) 3
Con (Fast Talk) 2
Infiltration (Urban) 2

4 spells of choice
25,000 in gear (5 BP)
One 2/2 contact.

As you can see, while he's light in certain areas, he's far from helpless outside of his specialty. For things outside his specialty, he can either blow edge or (more likely) rely on a specialized teammate to cover him. For example, he isn't a front-line combatant, but he's not meant to be; that's the role of the sammies and combat adepts.

My proposed longshot house rule is that a character adds edge to his or her pool as normal and may choose to roll negative dice pool modifiers as a virtual opponent. In the Mr. Lucky vs the 1 km out boat example mentioned earlier, Mr. Lucky rolls Edge (8 ) + Agility (2? 3?) -1 (defaulting) for 9 or 10 dice. He expects 3 or so hits, but with exploding sixes he could theoretically get any number of hits. The GM rolls the 53 dice penalty and expects around 18 hits but could theoretically get 0 or 1 or 2. Chances are very high that the GM's hits will reduce Mr. Lucky's hits to well below zero, but it is no longer absolute. It creates a situation something akin to SR1-3 where a Target Number of 30something was possible but certainly not probable. It also means that Mr. Heavy Weapons is more likely to succeed even with his edge of only 1 or 2.

[edit]Hit enter too early[/edit]

Cain:
He adds up to 400 points, but you are only allowed up to 35 points' worth of positive qualities (you have 45).

To me, this character, like my elven gunslinger number-crunching exercise, illustrates how it is generally a poor tactic to hard-max anything at character creation. Yeah, he has an 8 Edge. But he could have a still-very-respectable 6 Edge for 55 Build points less (20 for the quality and 35 to go from 6 to 8 ).

That's a lot! With that many build points, you could - get a mentor spirit, soft-max Magic, Intuition, and Willpower, buy and bond a Force: 2 power focus, and increase summoning and counterspelling to 4 - to give only one example.

As Glyph pointed out I don't think Cains mage is broken (though munchy in a range of areas).

As was pointed out it costs 55 BP for those last two points of edge. So an equivalent mage could, say, hardmax magic,aptitude up spellcasting, get a mentor spirit, and still have points for a better foci than you.

This means that when they roll their edge of 6 in their specialty(and with four spells you can expect things to fall in their specialty) they will probably beat you by 3 die. Also their spell would have a higher base damage value, or the attribute they're boosting could be higher etc.

And I think most people would agree that a char with such a limited spell selection and no astral combat/assensing would be rather rough, so they'd be inclined to ease up on the specialty a little and spread out.

My strong feeling at this point is that much of the hate for "Mr. Lucky" is either that they're otherwise munchy or that the other players are going with too low edge values.

Anyone got a link to the original Mr. Lucky stats? I may play him in our upcoming campaign as a second string runner just to see what he's like, although our refresh rate of once per mission and choice not to abuse longshot rules won't let him completely stretch his muscles.