Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Self expression Sota
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4
PlatonicPimp
Special treatment is precisely what we don't want. Elves get special treatment in the Tirs. Humans get special treatment in most places. All we want is to be judged by the same standards.

The trouble is, one person's leveling the playing feild is another person's special treatment. I run into this all the time, where steps taken to counteract prejudice are interpreted as an unfair advantage. This is the card humanis is always playing. Like I said, if there are natural limitations or advantages, then they'll tell in a fair comparison. But the prejudice of society is not a natural limitation, it's an imposed one.

I may have made an error in regard to you, though. In your post, were you referring specifically to the orcs who murdered your friend?
Daddy's Little Ninja
Why 'level the field' at all. if peopel are allowed to seek their level they will settle out to their natural place. Leveling interfers with that. it says a person cannot make it to ap oint on their own and so they will be given a boost, potentially over better qualified people. In the case of changed ones they are often boosted into a spot they cannot handle. The end result is that they need 'help' and special circumstances. In the end they are miserable and the person who with good but misguided intentions boosted the changed one is in a worse place.

In the end there should be no leveling or help. Let people get by on their abilities and changed ones get by on theirs. The end result is that people will settle into the proper place and so with the changed ones and in the end everyone will be happy because no one will be forced into an unnatural situation.
Pendaric
Thus the polite face of Lone Star's criminal profileing being solely directed at metahumans...
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)
Let people get by on their abilities and changed ones get by on theirs.

Can I point out something that seems to have slipped by you dear? You should not be comparing people and metahumans. Meta humans ARE people.
DuckEggBlue Omega
That's not all that's slipped passed her.

QUOTE (DNL)
If you question that just look at the domiance of the Japanese industry in the world.

How many of Big Ten are Japanese? 3. The UCAS has 2, and let's face it, Renraku barely deserve to be there. You did have more but your 'ethnic identity' meant EVO had to get out, as someone already mentioned. So yeah, that appears to be working out great for you. And what's the single biggest Mega? Saeder-Krupp, which isn't run by a human at all.

You keep talking about people not being delusioned about what they can and can't do. NEWS FLASH: Humans (Homo sapiens sapiens) are outclassed in EVERYTHING by SOMEONE! So same species or not, and even putting aside that the Great Dragons are the ones that run this ball of mud, why would you wan't to be 'human'. Elves and Dwarves have been shown to have superior mental abilities (and physically as well it should be pointed out), and Orks and Trolls are FAR stronger, so if you do buy the line that people should play to their talents and not delude thamselves, humans are little more than a waste of space. I don't buy that humanis crap myself, but if YOU follow it, how do you justify your exsistence? Dwarves and Elves are smarter and Orks and Trolls are bigger and stronger, a Humans only defining quality is that he is inferior in some way to everyone (or everything if you prefer) else around him. Go humans! sarcastic.gif

QUOTE ("mfb")
what separates an ork from a human? genetics? everybody has ork genes--only some of us haven't expressed them.

what it comes down to is that the only differentiation between the metatypes is their phenotype--what they look like.

Look, as much as I disagree with DLN, but bad science is bad science.

NOT everyone has ork genes. Meta-genetics isn't as straight forward due to it's inherently 'magical' nature, but the meta races are classified into diferent subspecies for a reason. And the 'only' differences being phenotypical does not change the fact that these phenotypes are the result of genetic differences between the metas.
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)
Why 'level the field' at all. if peopel are allowed to seek their level they will settle out to their natural place. Leveling interfers with that. it says a person cannot make it to ap oint on their own and so they will be given a boost, potentially over better qualified people. In the case of changed ones they are often boosted into a spot they cannot handle. The end result is that they need 'help' and special circumstances. In the end they are miserable and the person who with good but misguided intentions boosted the changed one is in a worse place.

In the end there should be no leveling or help. Let people get by on their abilities and changed ones get by on theirs. The end result is that people will settle into the proper place and so with the changed ones and in the end everyone will be happy because no one will be forced into an unnatural situation.

You "level the field" SO that people can stand on their own merits. In this metaphor, the landscape is not the people or their ability, it's the environment those abilities are used in. Think of people as buildings on that landscape. Imagine 2 buildings. One is taller than the other, yet sits in a valley. The other is on the hill. It reaches greater heights, despite being shorter. If the feild were level, the other buidling would reach greater heights.

Take it out of metaphor, an intelligent metahuman may be passed over for a position in favor of a less intelligent human, because of assumptions and not ability. I want ability to tell, just as much as you claim to, but I want it to tell on an individual basis. In order for ability to tell, you cannot make assuptions based on trivial factors such as metatype. Even if the statistics bear out the assumption that most orcs are less intelligent, you may be dealing with the exception to the rule.

So as to aviod talking cross purposes, let me be clear. To level the feild does not mean insuring that all people perform equally, that all reach the same heights. It means ensuring that all people can compete without impediment, that all begin at the same height. You say give no help. I say cause no hindrance.

And again, it ain't none of your business whether I choose something you'd call unnatural, or if I choose a path that makes me unhappy because it's more difficult for me. If anything was about being happy or natural, we never would have left the trees.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega)
How many of Big Ten are Japanese? 3.

Renraku, Mitsuhama, Shiawase, Yamatetsu (they grew to be a mega under Japanese leadership, regardless of their current folly). That's four, and there's the old Fuchi before Villiers butchered it from within. The UCAS has a tiny little barely-AA that only has a CC seat through corporate treachery and one, one AAA worthy of the name.

~J
Daddy's Little Ninja
Right, and none from CAS, CFS England, France or any of the nations run by non-humans. Heck the so called elven nations are falling apart, showing clearly their advanced abilities are just a sham.

Platonic, my point is there is no need to level anything. Just let people perform without needless interference form outside groups and people will level out. Otherwise when you see some changed person in an office you wonder did they get there because of their own ability or were they given a hand up by someone and otherwise would not be there? You look at them and doubt their ability from the start, and so limit that rare talaneted changed one who can work with people on their own level.
Pendaric
Are you proposing a more even-handed approach?
A situation where meta's rise in prominance within their own communities?
Without the interference of human capabilities and expectations?
For such to occur would require a minimal exposure to human communities.
Thus requiring physical distance between metahuman communities and human communities.
Obviously for the misguided on both sides an organisation would be needed to prevent the two communities from mixing.
This organisation would need guidelines and standard operating procedures, requiring legislation.
Due to metahuman nature this organisation's representatives would need to be armed and armoured.

To conclude you propose a small volcanic island in the middle of the phillipines, surrounded by guards with orders to shoot on sight.

History has a tendency to overthrow such concentration camps, re-educations centres, detention facilities, Yomi etc etc etc
PlatonicPimp
And yet you're convinced from the start that they can't do it, and you don't give them the chance. It's humand, regular humans, who have an initial leg up. They have no prejudice to overcome. Yes, when some form of "equal opportunity" is enforced, a metahuman may be hired over a better qualified human. But in every instance where it isn't enforced, a human will be hired over a better qualified metahuman. The playing feild isn't level.

So you count Yamatetsu, Huh, despite the "error of their ways"? That's interesting, and shows just how far you'll go to make the facts fit yoru world view. By that logic, should we consider all Japanacorps American, because it was American money, American techniques and American markets that built the japanese economy? But wait, it should be Britain who gets the credit, because without the British empire their would have been no USA. The japanese culture (not the japanese people, which is entirely different) doesn't support this kind of thinking. It traces back to where Japan is tops, and stops exactly there. You conviently ignore the metahuman at it's helm, and that it's corporate profits have not only recovered, tehy are higher than they were when they were headquartered in Japan. Did you forget that the top tier megacorp isn't run by a human, but a Dragon? In both your thinking on metahumans and your thinking on ethnic lines, you start with your conclusion and work backwards.

A lot of metahuman rights groups might do the same thing. I don't. There are definate areas of weakness when it comes to metahumans. Dwarves have height issues, and would be poor at jobs requiring stature. Trolls have the opposite problem, and would be poor at jobs requiring fitting in tight spaces. Many metahumans are stronger and tougher than normal humans. I'm even willing to accept that there are some mental limitations to certain metatypes. Yes, orcs test worse than humans, and trolls worst of all. Orcs and trolls tend to have worse people skills than humans. I accept the data. But the data is inconclusive as to the cause of this. It may be from a structural difference in the brain, it may be from genetics, or it may be that it's entirely the product of a culture that treats gobliniods as second class citizens. The data I've seen suggests the latter. It suggests that the poor social skills are a result of a hostile social environment. We can't know until we raise a generation of orcs and trolls in a non-hostile environment and see how they perform.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Did you forget that the top tier megacorp isn't run by a human, but a Dragon?

Being able to recognize an inferior being does not preclude being able to recognize a superior being.

~J
Pendaric
I concur. Most racists are inferior beings.
DuckEggBlue Omega
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)
clearly their advanced abilities are just a sham.

So when testing shows someone to be inferior to you that's all the proof you need, no need to take into account any other factors aside from race, but when someone is shown to be better than you, it's a sham?

For you the 'information age' was just something that happened to other people, wasn't it?
hyzmarca
Log into the Corporate patent database and search for metagenetics patents. Take a good look at all of them. Have an Agent do it if you don't have time. You'll notice that of the 154,497 metagenetic patents filed in the past 50 years, 92% of them refer back to techniques described in 38 now expired patents filed by an independent Troll geneticist. This single Troll, working on his own in his basement forged the foundation of modern metagenetics. He did things that no Megacorp was able to do before him, despite their trillions of nuyen and thousands of researchers. More importantly, every single modern Megacorp metagenetics program is build on his work. When his patents expired and the Megacorps could freely use them for the first time, the quality and availability of metagenetic testing and alteration increased a ten-fold almost overnight.

The insinuation that goblinoids are idiots is insulting.

Do you want to know why orks and trolls test lower than average in IQ screenings?
I know and I'll tell you. It is the elfs.

Have you ever seen a keebler drink a glass of water? Vodka. That's what they drink, isn't it? Never water? On no account will as keebler ever drink water, and not without good reason. Water. That's what I'm getting at. Water. Water is the source of all life. Seven tenths of this earth's surface is water. Why, you realize that.. seventy percent of you is water. And as metahuman beings, you and I need fresh, pure water to replenish our precious bodily fluids.

You beginning to understand?

Have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water, or rain water, and only pure grain alcohol? Have you ever heard of a thing called fluoridation? Fluoridation of water? Well do you now what it is? Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous elf plot we have ever had to face?
Fortune
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 9 2007, 12:55 PM)
Log into the Corporate patent database and search for metagenetics patents.  Take a good look at all of them. Have an Agent do it if you don't have time.  You'll notice that of the 154,497 metagenetic patents filed in the past 50 years, 92% of them refer back to techniques described in 38 now expired patents filed by an independent Troll geneticist. This single Troll, working on his own in his basement forged the foundation of modern metagenetics. He did things that no Megacorp was able to do before him, despite their trillions of nuyen and thousands of researchers.  More importantly, every single modern Megacorp metagenetics program is build on his work.  When his patents expired and the Megacorps could freely use them for the first time, the quality and availability of metagenetic testing and alteration increased a ten-fold almost overnight.

True, but you have to include the fact that he Goblinized from an extremely intelligent human into an exceptional troll who himself admitted to losing some cognitive ability in the change. And he was motivated!
Daddy's Little Ninja
Right, because he wanted to become a human and not the thing he had become.

I am not advocating changed ones being sent off to ghettos. The poor creatures could not survive. Look at the so called elven kingdom to the south of Seattle. Started with loads of hope and liberal money but it has fallen apart. It's economy collapsed long before the matrix failed. In the mountains west of Seattle there are the Cascade Crow indians who are normal people, but the cascade Crow Orks are only able to exist as criminals, unable to support themselves in the regular community.

I also do not agree that in a truly level field that a less talented human would win out every time over a more talented changed one. But the prejudice you cite cuts both ways. Look at Snow Fox. A human who only wanted to enjoy what is said to be the best BBQ in the region but because she was human she was not accepted by the changed ones. They clearly prefer their own company to socialize in and this shows the double standard in the liberal community. A group of humans want to have a gathering and the media insists they must allow changed ones in, but who protests in places like the Big Rhino where it is well know people are abused if they try to just sit down for a meal? non-elves in the Tir are limited to ghetto's by law. the changed ones there make things far harder for normal people to survive than we make it for them.
Pendaric
Let's just bring the collective attention back to Yomi and compare again.
Or perhapes the Calfree protectorate then again compare.

The meta human re-eduction centres? Night of Rage? Redmond Barrens? Hand of Five? Prevailing sentiments in Renton?

I appluad your ability in denial. Long may it continue.
Daddy's Little Ninja
I have said that ghetto's do not work and the Emperor in his wisdom ended Yomi. Can the same thing be said of humans living in Salem under the so called benign rule of changed ones?
Pendaric
Violence breeds violence, oppression breeds oppression. Sins of the father etc
What humans suffer in Salem has been paid for by the actions of others.
You do not get to call foul over the same actions taken by other segments of your demographic.
hyzmarca
Salem, like fluoride, is an elf conspiracy.

Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Pendaric, children's ice cream.
PlatonicPimp
DLN, in all the world, ONLY the Tirs have metahuman governments, and in that case it's elves. Elven governments who are more racist, and more proud of their racism. And elves have Never shown any cognitive disabilities. You go on about the metahuman governments of the UCAS and the like. Hardly. These are merely governments that are less racist than yours. having the occasional metahuman hold office does not equal metahuman rule. In fact, the number of metas in office is far lower than the number of meta in the population at large. Metas are under-represented.

Incidentally, I wouldn't bring up so called "failures of state" in your argument. It doesn't reflect well on Japan. This is the second time in 150 years your countries attempts at a pacific empire has failed, and it fails in part due to your inability to incorporate the different. Oh, and did I hear a shadowrunner disparage a group of people for making their living via crime? Back when native americans were second class citizens, they made a living on vice too. Often when an individual or group is denied a path in the light, they must take to the shadows to survive. The cascade orc's separation from their tribe was not entirely voluntary, you know.

Orcs and trolls have, I admit this, cognitive issues, but the data isn't cut and dried. The cause is unknown. The fact that the testing shows the gap lessening with time suggests (suggests) that its s social issue and not a genetic one. The troll we take as an example may have lost some cognitive ability in the change from a human, but is that due to the nature of the troll or the nature of the change? Data suggests at least part of it is the change.

Let me make it personal (I've drifted there a bit over this thread). My grandfather was a mathmatics professor at a major university before his change. After the change he was let go, and was unabel to get another teaching position. His IQ was tested at 155 before the change. After the change, he tested about 115. He was also listless, self-loathing, his confidence shattered, and he never really tried at anything again. My mother was born a human, and expressed at puberty. Her IQ was 152 before her change. When she changed my grandfather had been an orc for 5 years. He decided to home-school her. When she was retested years later her IQ was about 130. I was born an Orc. Before I got my augmentation, my IQ tested at 147. It is now around 170. If you compare the members of my family against the norms of our respective generations, you'll see that though we are consistently 3 standard deviations above the norm, we also follow the general curve of the data. Orcs who initially changed were most effected by the change. Those that were raised by other orcs were less effected mentally, and those that were raised by orcs in a mroe accepting environment where more resources were available do better still. Today the difference between the average orc and the average human in testing is less than one standard deviation, meaning it's effectively moot. For the record, the average human IQ is 103, the average orc score is 97, the average troll's is 92. The elven average is 107, though some of that data is provided by the Tirs and is suspect, it's the best we've got. The average dwarf tests at 102.

In the case of elves, hyzmarca, I can assure you that flouridation of the water does not have the effects you fear. I've seen things that make be beleive that certain groups of elven supremicists have taken conspiratorial action, but it's hardly fair to blame it on all elves. Maybe on a specific elven culture or two, but not on elves in general.

Kagetenshi
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
This is the second time in 150 years your countries attempts at a pacific empire has failed, and it fails in part due to your inability to incorporate the different.

Last I checked, it failed almost entirely due to massive natural disasters.

QUOTE
Let me make it personal (I've drifted there a bit over this thread). My grandfather was a mathmatics professor at a major university before his change. After the change he was let go, and was unabel to get another teaching position. His IQ was tested at 155 before the change. After the change, he tested about 115. He was also listless, self-loathing, his confidence shattered, and he never really tried at anything again. My mother was born a human, and expressed at puberty. Her IQ was 152 before her change. When she changed my grandfather had been an orc for 5 years. He decided to home-school her. When she was retested years later her IQ was about 130. I was born an Orc. Before I got my augmentation, my IQ tested at 147. It is now around 170. If you compare the members of my family against the norms of our respective generations, you'll see that though we are consistently 3 standard deviations above the norm, we also follow the general curve of the data.

You decline to note, I see, that renormalization resulted in dramatic increases in reported IQ scores. Average score for a human is now well above 100 since normalization took into account Orks and Trolls—almost half a standard deviation higher. Adding 21% of a population well below the previous average will do that to a normalized scale.

~J
PlatonicPimp
The standard deviation is 15. So humans score 1/5th higher than the total normalization. Orcs score a similar amount lower, making the difference around 7 IQ points, a little less than half a standard deviation. A difference that small means almost nothing in practical terms.

I didn't mention the test was normalized because that's part of the definition of an IQ test. Should I explain standard deviations as well?

The Japanese empire suffered from natural disasters, but if it were better at incorporating differences, their "client states" would have been more willing to assist Japan rather than take the opportunity to revolt. The empire fell apart because, given the opportunity, the people it treated as second class citizens choose to rebel. Thus is the fate of all cultures that treat some as second class citizens.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
In the case of elves, hyzmarca, I can assure you that flouridation of the water does not have the effects you fear. I've seen things that make be beleive that certain groups of elven supremicists have taken conspiratorial action, but it's hardly fair to blame it on all elves. Maybe on a specific elven culture or two, but not on elves in general.

You know when fluoridation first began? Nineteen hundred and forty-six. Nineteen forty-six, PlatonicPimp. How does that coincide with your post-war Keebler conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Keebler works.

Do you recall what Clemenceau once said about war? He said war was too important to be left to the generals. When he said that, 150 years ago, he might have been right. But today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Elf infiltration, Elf indoctrination, Elf subversion and the international Elf conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
Fortune
Elf fixation!
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Elf infiltration, Elf indoctrination, Elf subversion and the international Elf conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Oooh, this ought to be fun.

Aside from the flouride treatments (which were started many decades before any elf sightings), what foul deviousness is there that envelopes all who were born with soft skin and pointy ears?
Also, how would such a conspiracy organize? Sure, it's easy to spot fellow conspirators, once you know that everyone is joined up and agreeable, but how do you get the initial contact list for such an arrangement?

And just as a side note, why do I never hear about dwarven conspiracies? Is it just that no one looks down to notice the conspirings or are they innocent?
DuckEggBlue Omega
I don't think any of that matters. I'm told he first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love.
hyzmarca
Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I... I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence.
I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Vampires uh... vampires sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid vampires, Mandrake. But I... I do deny them my essence.
Daddy's Little Ninja
Platonic, you continue to make my point for me. When your grandfather changed, not only did his intelligence drop but he became listless you said. I know family histories tend to color facts, but I would think he was dismissed because of his attitude, not his teeth.

Japan has not been trying to create a Pan Asian Empire. They have only been ensuring their own position and protecting its own people.

To got back to the mid 20th century we can clearly see what happened to people who rejected the Greater East Asian Co-prosperity Sphere. We were at first applauded for being Asians who stood up to western colonization, but they immediately wanted to be given the same lifestyle we enjoyed, as a gift, without working for it and they objected when Japan needed to take the time to build up her own infrastructure to do this. Why would we want to recreate this for a people who do not appreciate us? The presence of Imperial Troops and operatives in the Philippines was not colonialism but just the protection of Japanese property following the failure of the Philippine government to keep order. I, for one, will be very happy to never set foot in Manilla again.

Look what happened to the Asian peoples after the war. Japan became the dominant economy in the world because her people understood hard work and had an honestly elected government that accepted responsibility for its failures and worked towards success. Korea, and Indochina sliced themselves up in civil wars. Burma and the Philippines slide down to become impoverished beggar nations. China became a repressive dictatorship. Then when it tried to become a modern market, collapsed into the mess it is today. But Japan, a homogenous culture and people have consistently risen about all that.

When people started changing this was naturally seen as a shock and fearful. Japan kept a closer relationship with its mythology than any other industrialized power so it was far more of a shock to see Oni and Kami appearing in Tokyo than for goblins to appear in Berlin. But recognizing that these were once people who had changed, we took steps to isolate them for their protection as much as for that of the population of Japan. Maybe the USA would have avoided the terrible night of rage had you taken the same steps.

Lastly to go back to Salem. You show my point yet again. Japan has recognized that actual ghettos are now an evil and we closed Yomi. The elves controlling Salem have not recognized this and the very existence of the ghetto in the first place shows elves are no more advanced than other changed ones. They are just aping what humans did, not showing any sort of advanced thoughts, but monkey see, monkey do.
PlatonicPimp
My grandfather was let go the day he got out of the hospital. The change in his attitude happend after he was fired.

Metas ape humans? They ARE humans. The only reason you can say that humans tried it first is because humans were here first.

Where the current japanese culture succeed is in their focus on hard work and economic success. Where the current japanese culture fails is in the social aspect. Are you aware that Japan has the highest suicide rate in the sixth world?

DLN, the facts you produce are frequently correct, but the picture you paint is limited. You find facts that support your preconceived notions (japan is best, metas aren't as good as normal humans), twist them when they don't fit, or ignore them. Hardly scientific. I don't make your arguments for you. I show the data I have. Sometimes you can take that data to support your claims, but I don't agree with the conclusions you draw, and their are other conclusions that fit the data just as well.

Instead of criticizing a race, you should criticize a culture. I have nothing agianst Japanese people, but the current Japanese culture has traits I abhor. It's nothing inherent to being japanese. Japanese people in different cultures don't share these attitudes. Some japanese within the culture aviod having these attitudes. Similarly, The elven societies of the Tirs are terrible, but not all elves are elven supremicists. The modern Orxploitation movement is a tremendous misstep, because it encourages young orcs to live up to the stereotype of greedy, shortsighted thugs. That culture is not intrinsic to being an orc.

Pendaric
Eunabo djoto, cerri.
Daddy's Little Ninja
You miss the vital point that the Japanese people and the Japanese culture are the same thing. That is the strength of Japan. The people are one race, undiluted for centuries. The culture is one culture that has grown with the people. I know the Americans pride themselves on their "melting pot" but look how long that lasted. Less than 300 years before the indians rose up and fell back into tribal patterns, and the melting pot could not resist them.

I have not said "Japan is the best." I am arguing facts and avoiding the subjective terms. However it can be seen that the unified japanese culture has produced many long lasting benefits that other peoples envy and seek to emulate. Don't think so? wanna bet nuyen.gif 10 on it?
PlatonicPimp
Sure. The only condition I have on it is you have to leave out every instance of Japan copying another culture, and only use things Japan developed by themselves as examples.

So basically western economic practices, such as corporations are out. Western Law is out. Anythign based on western science is out. Oh, wait, I seem to recall that Japanese politics, literature, and philosophy all borrow heavily from Imperial China. Hell, your "native" system of writing is so close that japanese and chinese people can write letters to each other, despite not speaking the same language. Oh, and Bhuddism is right out, so anything based on bhuddist principles.....

There is nothing special about japanese values that guarentee their success. Everyone gets their time in the spotlight. The US had it's time. Britain before it, France before that, Spain before that, Italy before that. China's time has come and gone, and may be coming around again.

The Japanese race is not the Japanese culture. For one, Japan has had more than one culture. The Post-WW2 Japanese culture is recognizeably different that that which came before. Second, the Japanese are not ethnically homogenous. The natives of HokkaidĹ? and Okinawa are different ethnicities than other japanese, for instance. Thirdly and lastly, There are many, many people who are ethnically Japanese (as much as that means anything, see point 2) who are not japanese culturally. My wife is a second-generation Japanese-american. Both her parents were Japanese-america, and all her grandparents were Japanese. Her culture, however, is that of san-francisco, and she is hardly the only one.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)
That is the strength of Japan. The people are one race, undiluted for centuries. The culture is one culture that has grown  with the people.
And yet rather than say, 'one race with new faces,' they embark on an internal war.
QUOTE
I know the Americans pride themselves on their "melting pot" but look how long that lasted. Less than 300 years before the indians rose up and fell back into tribal patterns, and the melting pot could not resist them.
Not really, 'melting pot' hadn't been the philosophy of the pre-shatter USA since the rise of the Commercial Age. It had changed to a 'divide, market, and sell' philosophy that quickly grew from its original place in corporations and was displayed in every field that could possibly have competition. The big irony is that often the competitions were staged to give the illusion of choice, while always having the same final result.
Snow_Fox
DLN is Shinto, not buddist. and as much as I hate to agree with her on any of this, she has a valid point about the Tir's isolation policy. I think we can all agree that ghettos are bad. Yomi was an abomination just as the night of rage was. So having seen all that evil, why do the elves, claiming to be an enlightened people, reproduce the worst social injustice of the 21st century?

Stop dredging up the past gang. We all come from peoples who abused other peoples. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here and I'm stil llooknig for the Catholic church, as a survvinig element of the Roman government to pay my family back for Alesia. Keep it current day before we start discussing slaughtering Ainu and Wounded Knee.
Pendaric
Despite the obvious need to revisit history in aspected view point of racism. Let us instead focus on the fact that all of metahumanity, when viewed in the majority, are tribal primitives with the perchant for violence.
Equally proficient at the moral laxity and double standards despite metatype, sex or sexual preference.
Daddy's Little Ninja
you look at the surface of japanese culture and don't understand it. the dedication and self sacrifice that made Japan a power in the 1930's was then used to rebuild her after the barbaric use of atomic weapons on Japan. this dedication made Japan an economic power in place of a military one. It is the only non-white power that did not have its indigenous faith pushed into a secondary role by westerners. Shinto shrines are as active now as they were in the 19th century. And I am afraid you are mistaken about the written languages. While two scholars both writing in kanji can communicate beyond barriers, the Hiranga alphabet is strictly Japanese.

And this thread is about the changed ones being exploited or given a way of expression. you talk about how young orks are being pressed into a stereotype, but where did that come form? How many young dwarves are given gifts of tools by their own families to encourage that stereotype? Orks are shown 'tough' orks and trolls and the military or security or athletics as fields where they can earn their way successfully, because they are not going to be believable as a corporate suit. And if you look at models, reference 'racer queens.' You will fine no ork or troll women in skin tight outfits draped on cars. the idea of a troll in an add for VS or Fredericks or Freudian slips negligee just isn't happening.
Pendaric
Sorry DLN you appear to have fallen into ranting, please make a coherent point so we may derail it for you.

Also you obviously don't watch yamatetsu metamatrix which does have metahuman women in their ad's. I believe that was some how important to your spittle laden tirade.
By the way you will ultimately fail if you argue with the bottom line of commerce.
Daddy's Little Ninja
Taps the poor changed one on the head sympathetically.

I was not ranting I was stating facts. what you seem to miss, and is typical of the changed ones as they lose an argument, that they accuse the humans of being racist and going off in rants. I assume you I am quite calm and if you want to look at the economic bottom line, then clearly the superiority of Japan, with an unmixed, human population rised like cream rto the top. By comparrison the so called elven nations in North America, Ireland, and Africa are sinking.

And while one corp may have relocated to Siberia, notice they keep the Japanese name and have some ads particularly for changed people, they are not in mainstream media, but rather in publications aimed at those particular groups.
Hense they recognize, even with a changed one friendly attitude, that changed ones should not and cannot mix easily with normal people.

Promise, I'm not ranting. very calm.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)
Promise, I'm not ranting. very calm.

Ranting implies raving, but does not neccessitate it.

However, the decrease in your grammatical performance in your last two replies indicates that you spent significantly less time thinking through your response and no time re-reading it to confirm that it conveyed what you wanted to convey.

Ergo, you have begun ranting. That does not make your points inherently invalid, but will be used against you and confirms that your argument is getting less prepared and more emotional and reactionary.
Mr. Croup
Mr. P? A changed one?

My word, i find the very idea of Pendaric as a "changed one" somewhat amusing.

DLN, may i be first to point out that cream is not the only thing to rise to the top, i suggest you are more careful with your metaphors in future.

If you would allow me to join the delicate expostulations of this particular thread, i would first like to point out the terribly circular rumpus that appears to be going on, indeed a veritable game of swings and roundabouts as the saying goes.

My dear ladies and gentlemen of the board, it is very likely no good in arguing away with our good companion DLN. I will not say that she is right, as i firmly believe her (i assume you are a madame, if not, please accept my most humble apologies. If so, then at least forgive the assumption, it can be so hard to tell in this electronic world in which we commune) to be wrong in a great deal of areas. No, it lies unfortunately in the apparent method in which she has assembled her facts in such a way as to make an unpenetrable veneer on her world view in much the same way the Japanese of old would lacquer their armour.

Her unswayed belief in the superiority of her culture and beliefs is certainly admirable in some instances but sadly misguided in many others. Statement of facts derived from lessons left unlearned over the years by her culture is a sad testament to a country that had so much to offer the world in the previous century and has now regressed back to a much older and less refined form of xenophobia.

It amuses me a great deal that a people originally formed from the mixing of at least two ethnicities have become scared of a mixing of species. After all, has not mother nature herself proved on many occassions that a hybrid takes the best of both species from which it comes, increasing it's chances of survival in the harsh world in which we live? Also, has nature not shown that those that cannot adapt to a new environment will perish?

To realise the truth of anything in this world you simply must know only two simple rules:

1) Life thrives on Conflict, to strive is the very essence of life
2) All things end

DLN, the Japanese as a culture and a country has risen and fallen many times over history, the British Empire eventually buckled and bent under it's own weight before being carved up and parcelled out to it's members, the United States fractured and ceased to be and one day Japan will follow the same course.

Every dog has it's day, my dear, and then it dies. It's simply the order of things.

Whilst you may sing out how Japan is so superior because of it's actions, in truth it is merely just a question of timing. Japan has risen whilst other's are on the decline. It is a simple contrast that shows only how far above everyone else you have become and not how close to heaven, as it were, you have gotten.

Metahumanity is not old but without doubt, it's star is on the rise and who is to say what lofty peaks it may reach? It is a the trickle of water wearing away the rock and my advice to you is not to be the rock.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all things should be equal. What would be the point? It would be a situation of too many Daimyo's and not enough Samurai if that were the case. But everyone, regardless of being a single soul or a species as a whole, if they want it enough and work at it enough will get what they are looking for. Maybe not today and maybe it will be on the backs of those that came before them when it does. But the hardships it faces is what makes a species strong and racism in any form is just another hurdle along that path.

Terribly sorry, i do seem to have gotten into my rut and blathered on far too long. I shall enjoy this discussion further at a later point, for now i am late for an appointment.

Ta Ta

~C
Fortune
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)
And while one corp may have relocated to Siberia, notice they keep the Japanese name ...

They did? Evo != Yamatetesu
Kagetenshi
They did. Evo isn't even a listed corporation in the Corporate Court Directory.

~J
Pendaric
I must concur Mr Coup that the expostulation that I am a meta human, when I have stated my metatype in this very thread, is a matter of mirth and symptomatic of the derangement of perspective derived from racism.
Simply because I take a position contrary to DLN she adopts a superiority not derived from pre-knowledge of my abilities but on assumption of my metatype.
Clearly lacking the politeness and displaying the smug attitude I so recently detailed in my preamble.
The lack of flexibility endemic of racists places them beyond doubt as a lesser life form.
Inferior in the polarity of their fixation.
Daddy's Little Ninja
The brevity of my earlier answers is more from a fact there was little need for more words than a lack of control or you envision me spluttering in rage. Unlike you, who seems to seek to put up a vast volume of words to over whelm resistance, I need only a few words to make my point clear.

Mr Croup, my point is that while other empires, you point to the British and american empires, rise then fall. Japan has risen and fallen and risen again, like the tide and just as irresistible.

The ugly word racist raises an interesting point. We drift back to the idea that is there a difference between human and changed ones? Is a person who acknowledges a difference a racist or a realist? Is the person who says there is no difference kindly and open minded? or Looking at the world through rose colored glasses?

There are significant differences between humans and changed ones. They have noted failures in intellect but superior physical ability. I am just being honest and acknowledging these facts. I do not blame the changed ones for their condition any more than I would blame someone for being left handed or the victim of a fire for their scars. They are to be pitied for the hand that fate dealt them.
PlatonicPimp
Except that we dismiss your pity. Keep your damn pity. We're fine, thanks, and the biggest hurdle we face because of our condition is the attitudes of people like you. No cognitive impairment, no limited lifespan, none of the differences you love to point out (and that I won't disagree they are there) are anywhere near the impediment we face in culturally-entrenched prejudice. For every orc who can't do the job because they aren't capable, there are a dozen more who are fully capable and yet discriminated against.

You mention ads don't feature orcs unless they are targeted to orcs. So what? The default add is targeted towards humans, so it features humans. Or maybe elves, they're close enough in general build that the same things appeal. What we must get used to is that humans aren't the default. They are just another metatype. Try looking at it that way, for just a second, DLN. Just try for me. I don't attitudes to change much, but if you see that humans aren't special in any way, they are just one of many different forms that sentient life takes, I think it'll put some things in perspective. You're a meta, DLN. Your metatype is human.

Besides, when was the last time you saw an add that wasn't targeted based on your personal data? Even the Trid plays different commercials for different people. It's part of why those things have standardized lengths.

(PS, since this is an SR3 forum, I assume EVO doesn't exist yet).
Fortune
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
... since this is an SR3 forum, I assume EVO doesn't exist yet ...

I hate the separate Forums! mad.gif embarrassed.gif
Pendaric
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ Aug 14 2007, 03:16 PM)
The brevity of my earlier answers is more from a fact there was little need for more words than a lack of control or you envision me spluttering in rage. Unlike you, who seems to seek to put up a vast volume of words to over whelm resistance, I need only a few words to make my point clear.

Strange that in every post I used considerably less words than you?
My dear girl, my verbose affectations are chosen for my love of the English language, it has more words of prose than any other.
Mr Coup is similarly inflicted and seems to have, like so many, lost you on the simplist point. Due to, in no small measure, your lack of flexibility. However I will allow him to elucidate your misconceptions in his own time.

Coincidentally Mr Coup hows the weather?

But I digress.
Racist is an individual that see's the difference inherent in another and presumes this make them an inferior.
A realist is some one who see the difference in another and adapts. Not judges, adapts. We will see if repetition penatrates the primitive sophism.

Evolution has demonstrated that flexibility is the most important trait in survival. Racists are inflexible and will die.
Realists deal with the little practicalities and survive. I have seen this first hand many times.
Mr. Croup
DLN, i'm afraid you've missed the very thrust of my argument, or at least misconstrued a point i've mentioned previously.

Whilst i do not deny your point on the rise and fall of Japan, it is interesting to note that you fail to point out that Japan has only risen and fallen within the microcosm of it's own islands and a few surrounding countries. Britain suffered similarly themselves before founding the Empire, the United States tried the same and inevitably paid the price for their impetuousness. Japan, now, is struggling to keep hold of what it has thrust it's sticky mit out to claim within this century. Whilst i don't deny it's economical capability or the fecundity of it's people, you will see, if one looks carefully, that the cracks are starting to show. Though the US has passed into history, both Britain and Japan have shared a similar history of rise and fall upon their own shores and whilst you may deride the US and Britain now, the UCAS is proof that last vestiges of the old US struggle on and fair Britannia will once again have her day once her own internal problems straighten themselves out. As an aside, i only use the US and Britain as two prominent and contemporary examples of my case in point, i'm sure if you look the world over you will find countless examples of the rise and fall of many cultures. As Mr. P. so astutely remarked, the ones that survive are the ones that adapt.

Now to address your point on racism, let us advert ourselves to the dictionary definition of the word:

QUOTE
racism  n.  
1.  The belief that race accounts for differences in metahuman character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2.  Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


If you would kindly look to the words you have previously scribed in this thread, you will note that many of your posts would lump you in with the racist crowd. If you truly believe otherwise then i would suggest that you think more on your wording before you post, after all, brevity is not the same as being concise.

To truly test your surmisation that the "changed ones" are as different as you say, with modern technology you could take a wide selection of "changed ones" and make them look human. Could you then tell the difference from them and an equally wide selection of humans based purely on ability?

No. Simply put, without checking genetics or use of other, more invasive testing, socially there would be not much difference except the ones brought on through the impact of their environment.

Humans are a wide and varied group and so are the other metatypes, both are comprised of everyone from the rude and the crude to the polite and well mannered, from the ignorant and the stupid to the enlightened and the intelligent..
the list goes on.

Simply put you are all the same on the inside (of that i can assure you.) with the same basic capabilities for emotion and achievement, other than that, we are all different, regardless of race or lineage. That simply cannot be disputed.

Is this a perception through rose tinted glasses? Is this the mad utterances of an open mind?

No. In this modern age those that cannot see things for what they truly are, those that cannot step back and view things objectively without preconceptions created by either emotion, culture or history are living a lie, a fantasy played out in their own heads more addictive and insidious than any BTL.

Would you not agree?

Ta Ta

~C

PS. Mr. P, the weather is completely cats and dogs at the moment and, i suspect, for the foreseeable future. Luckily the polution index is not as high as it has been of late making it much less taxing on my umbrella. How are you finding the weather?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Mr. Croup)
To truly test your surmisation that the "changed ones" are as different as you say, with modern technology you could take a wide selection of "changed ones" and make them look human. Could you then tell the difference from them and an equally wide selection of humans based purely on ability?

No. Simply put, without checking genetics or use of other, more invasive testing, socially there would be not much difference except the ones brought on through the impact of their environment.

Reality check time!

The average Troll is not capable of identifying an object presented briefly and then hidden. The average human can do it with ease. The average Troll is not capable of identifying the source of a noise. The average human can do it with ease. This holds for the other senses. Without detailed investigation, the average Troll has no real information about the world around him or her, and in about 16% of tests, is unaware that a stimulus was presented in the first place. This does not hold true for humans.

The average Ork can reliably identify the existence of a stimulus such as those mentioned above, but can only correctly guess at the nature of the stimulus about 70% of the time. The average human can perform the same task with over 90% reliability. The average Ork will be incapable of guessing at the exact nature of the presented stimulus (the margin of error exceeds the percent of successful identifications)—an average human can do it over 50% of the time.

I'll have to dig up the full-population studies, but these are facts, that have been confirmed repeatedly by controlled and peer-reviewed experimentation. Saying "you can't tell the difference!" doesn't make it true.

~J
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012