Of course you should be worrying about your ammo. And it sure as hell isn't going to be the least of your concerns if you're a gun bunny.
Yeah, you have other things to occupy your mind. Having the proper resources to accomplish those tasks is one of them, and having ammunition be rare, scarce, or just pricey is one easy way to make those tasks harder. Fixer set you up? How are you going to exact your revenge with half a clip of tranq darts? Got a kickass Alpha Ares with no minigrenades and for some reason just flechette ammo against some heavily armoured trolls?
Yeah, ammo is a worry. It should be, seeing how prevalent ranged combat is in this game. It shouldn't be your main worry. But it's up there along with rations, medical supplies, and enough gas to get away.
Full Version: Firearms
| QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 11 2007, 03:11 AM) |
| Until you are loading your last mag. . . |
| QUOTE |
| Of course you should be worrying about your ammo. And it sure as hell isn't going to be the least of your concerns if you're a gun bunny. Yeah, you have other things to occupy your mind. Having the proper resources to accomplish those tasks is one of them, and having ammunition be rare, scarce, or just pricey is one easy way to make those tasks harder. Fixer set you up? How are you going to exact your revenge with half a clip of tranq darts? Got a kickass Alpha Ares with no minigrenades and for some reason just flechette ammo against some heavily armoured trolls? Yeah, ammo is a worry. It should be, seeing how prevalent ranged combat is in this game. It shouldn't be your main worry. But it's up there along with rations, medical supplies, and enough gas to get away. |
Which should all come down to how much a character can carry.
While it should be inexpensive to purchase, it is improbable to carry around 1,000 rounds of ammunition. Its just silly. Heck, it gets cumbersome when you have a dozen loaded magazines (dependent on the weapon type). Ammunition is HEAVY and bulky (one of the reason rail gun type weapons are so sought after by the military). It gets even worse the larger the weapon. Look at the m249. Counting the 200 round box you already have loaded, you are probably going to get away with carrying 1, 2 at the most. And even then, a 249 will tear through ammo (cyclic rate is 650-850 rounds per minute, sustained rate is listed at 100 rounds per minute. For assault rifles, you are looking at 5-10 mags with 30 rounds each (which will last less than 10 seconds per magazine on full auto).
I can accept explosive, ADPS, etc. being expensive. Heck, it is excessively difficult to get your hands on other than standard ammunition in the real world (by standard I refer to all typical legal types, be it FMJ, tracer, hollow point, etc
As it is today, you can walk into walmart and pick up 300 rounds of 45 cal for your 1911 for about $100. In a world where firearms seem to be even more prevalent, it makes no sense that ammunition would be so much more expensive.
So, like I was saying. It shouldn't be about how much ammunition the gun bunny can buy. it should be about how much the gun bunny can carry. THAT is what is going to be the deciding factor.
The Gun Bunny will carry as much as possible, really. After all, without ammo she's just the Shiny Handheld Metal Bunny.
It makes sense for ammo to be even more tightly controlled in such a dangerous environment. It also makes sense for corps to jack up the prices on it. It's not going to raise a ruckus with the Joe Wageslaves, corp security is going to get bulk discounts, and mercs have their own contacts. But for the criminals, the runners, and the general miscreants, there's money to be had there and a benefit to making it slightly tougher to acquire.
Being able to carry an Ingram White Knight and a gyromount and a 1000 rounds of ammo in 100-round belts is all well and dandy... unless of course you couldn't afford the 1000 rounds of Ex-ex. Or even the 1000 regular rounds.
Availability and cost are greater restrictions than carrying capacity. After all, if I'm going to carry that much ammo around so as not to even try to do it Stealthily I'm going to buy a few drone ammo carts to tag along and resupply.
But most runs aren't centred around exchanging the refined lead output of a small country.
It makes sense for ammo to be even more tightly controlled in such a dangerous environment. It also makes sense for corps to jack up the prices on it. It's not going to raise a ruckus with the Joe Wageslaves, corp security is going to get bulk discounts, and mercs have their own contacts. But for the criminals, the runners, and the general miscreants, there's money to be had there and a benefit to making it slightly tougher to acquire.
Being able to carry an Ingram White Knight and a gyromount and a 1000 rounds of ammo in 100-round belts is all well and dandy... unless of course you couldn't afford the 1000 rounds of Ex-ex. Or even the 1000 regular rounds.
Availability and cost are greater restrictions than carrying capacity. After all, if I'm going to carry that much ammo around so as not to even try to do it Stealthily I'm going to buy a few drone ammo carts to tag along and resupply.
But most runs aren't centred around exchanging the refined lead output of a small country.
If you're going to start suddenly citing "it makes sense for corps to charge a lot" for something as basic as ammunition, you'd better be prepared to hike the prices on cyberware back through the roof again, too. And make guns cost more than they already do, while you're at it.
| QUOTE |
| It makes sense for ammo to be even more tightly controlled in such a dangerous environment. It also makes sense for corps to jack up the prices on it. It's not going to raise a ruckus with the Joe Wageslaves, corp security is going to get bulk discounts, and mercs have their own contacts. But for the criminals, the runners, and the general miscreants, there's money to be had there and a benefit to making it slightly tougher to acquire. |
By the laws of supply and demand that almost works, except that the supply of ammunition is silly high, bullets are super cheap to manufacture.
I guess it comes down to a difference of opinion.
While overly expensive, I've never run into a problem with ammunition. Either we got the J to front the cost or I just bite the bullet (haha) and paid the cost, never realizing how much more it was costing me. I've always played with GMs that are realistic about how much our characters can carry, and when things went bad, it has come down to the rounds we were capable of carrying. I've even seen runs where our more 'support' type characters were handing over compatible clips to the gun bunny. Things went that badly, the corp had that much disposable security, when each shot was counting, it was better let the gun bunny apply their 20+ dice pool to each rather than the face or hacker who had half that to use.
So, my opinion is that when characters are limited to how much they can carry, when you only have a clip left things get much more interesting.
Carrying capacity IS a very realistic restriction. Just take a look at some decent military movies. The army can afford bullets for days. But the soldiers can only carry so many into combat.
Yeah ammo should be hilarious cheap. We currently have these gigantic piles of 5.56 and 7.62MM rounds sitting around for no real reason, with international tensions at all time highs in shadow-verse the stockpiles could stagger belief.
And once that happens people are going to be selling out of a truck 10 minutes later.
And once that happens people are going to be selling out of a truck 10 minutes later.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| We currently have these gigantic piles of 5.56 and 7.62MM rounds sitting around for no real reason... |
That used to be the case, but isn't anymore, mostly thanks to the current situation in Iraq.
http://www.eckernet.com/2006/03/update_amm...o_shortage.html
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/pass-t...shortages-0859/
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/us-amm...guns-ammo-01120
http://money.excite.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top...id=ap-d8p8jai82
| QUOTE (TheOneRonin) | ||
That used to be the case, but isn't anymore, mostly thanks to the current situation in Iraq. http://www.eckernet.com/2006/03/update_amm...o_shortage.html http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/pass-t...shortages-0859/ http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/us-amm...guns-ammo-01120 http://money.excite.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt_top...id=ap-d8p8jai82 |
'for no real reason' is a bit of a misconception. So is 'mass shortages' of ammunition. Those reports are also a couple years old and talks specifically of 7.62 and .50 cal ammunition, which are both limited in production to begin with. I believe one article even discusses how most of the manufacturing plants are still using older equipment. I don't fire 7.62 or .50 cal, so I can't speak for that, but I can assure you that the cost of 5.56 and other small arms, 9mm, 45 cal, etc have remained steady over the past several years. That price is only a fraction of the cost that ammunition is in shadowrun.
And you aren't going to be able to sell the idea of 'ammunition being highly controlled' It wouldn't. With exception to the actual illegal types, ammunition would be just as plentiful, just as cheap to produce and just as available as it is now, if not more so. There is no reason for making 'cost' be the significant factor in limiting the amount of ammunition your gun bunny carries. Make it a realistic limitation, carrying capacity. Its much more fun that way
| QUOTE (l33tpenguin) |
| Those reports are also a couple years old and talks specifically of 7.62 and .50 cal ammunition, which are both limited in production to begin with. I believe one article even discusses how most of the manufacturing plants are still using older equipment. I don't fire 7.62 or .50 cal, so I can't speak for that, but I can assure you that the cost of 5.56 and other small arms, 9mm, 45 cal, etc have remained steady over the past several years. That price is only a fraction of the cost that ammunition is in shadowrun. And you aren't going to be able to sell the idea of 'ammunition being highly controlled' It wouldn't. With exception to the actual illegal types, ammunition would be just as plentiful, just as cheap to produce and just as available as it is now, if not more so. There is no reason for making 'cost' be the significant factor in limiting the amount of ammunition your gun bunny carries. Make it a realistic limitation, carrying capacity. Its much more fun that way |
| QUOTE |
'for no real reason' is a bit of a misconception. So is 'mass shortages' of ammunition. |
I was being more than a bit silly. There where humongous stockpiles of ammo in post cold war Europe, that had been there fore a reason but I am of the view that the reason has disappeared but that ammo hadn't.
I'd be quite surprised if most of those stockpiles had gone actually, not all of them where American.
Anyway my real point was that in times of heightened geopolitical tension people tend to amass vast quantities of ammo. As Shadowrun is a time of heightened tension there is probably going to be a lot of ammo floating around.
However I'm totally fine with it being expensive in game because thats just a cost yo deal with. Stops mages being screwed quite so hard
| QUOTE (l33tpenguin) |
| So, my opinion is that when characters are limited to how much they can carry, when you only have a clip left things get much more interesting. Carrying capacity IS a very realistic restriction. Just take a look at some decent military movies. The army can afford bullets for days. But the soldiers can only carry so many into combat. |
I agree here except on the "bullets for days" bit. The current US military has basically unending bullets because 1) we're richest nation on earth, 2) we have absolutely no concept of conservation of any type during military operations or any real idea of fiscal responsibility, and 3) the ammunition companies know that the checks will never bounce as long as the Federal Government is around and doing the second part of #2.
Now look at the guys in Shadowrun at war. You want to protect your assets and take theirs by force, right? You're also training/hiring guys to do this stuff for you as well. You need to supply transportation and/or logistical support. You need to pay them.
But now we get to the real difference between today and Shadowrun. In a business, you need to make money. Wars and combat operations are hideously expensive and you need your engagements quick and decisive because a drawn-out engagement exposes your own assets to attack and increases the risk of destroying the assets you wish to attain. Now add that a protracted series of car bombs on the cheap can turn the tide of public (read: shareholder for this example in SR) opinion in a huge negative way.
You made some valid points but the wars of SR are much more budgeted affairs...
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )
| QUOTE (psychophipps) |
| You made some valid points but the wars of SR are much more budgeted affairs... |
...I know.
Excuse me, I need to get back running...er...managing the war in the Balkans.
No shadowrun war is ever really going to attempt to budget ammo?
Why - because if I have a dude on the ground with synaptic booser, II, body armor, some guns, some drones, some more cyber/bio comms etc, he is probably an investment of 500k or more. Probably much more. He's probably costing me more to feed that it would cost to give him all the ammo he can carry. Let alone once you factor in his salary.
Why the hell would I not give him all the bullets he can carry? The cost of getting that dude trained up and on the ground is way higher than the cost of ammo. So if I can double his chance of actually killing the other dude by giving him 40 times as many bullets - it is still cost effective to do so.
Why - because if I have a dude on the ground with synaptic booser, II, body armor, some guns, some drones, some more cyber/bio comms etc, he is probably an investment of 500k or more. Probably much more. He's probably costing me more to feed that it would cost to give him all the ammo he can carry. Let alone once you factor in his salary.
Why the hell would I not give him all the bullets he can carry? The cost of getting that dude trained up and on the ground is way higher than the cost of ammo. So if I can double his chance of actually killing the other dude by giving him 40 times as many bullets - it is still cost effective to do so.
"The only thing more expensive than winning a war is losing a war."
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| "The only thing more expensive than winning a war is losing a war." |
Which I would assume refers to the number of lives lost. Almost no number of bullets is worth the life of a well trained soldier.
Looking back at one of the earlier topics in this post (Recoil and how to deal with it), I was thinkin' of something along these lines:
Range and Round modifiers for Recoil
Recoil builds up for ever 2 bullets fired (as opposed to every 1 bullet). This alone will cut the recoil to manageable in most any situation, even by the average person. Additionally, the recoil caps at a max penalty of -5. From what I've seen in posts from other people here, in real life, it doesn't matter if you fire 5 or 20 rounds in a stream. After a point, you handle the gun fine and keep your spread contained. This is assuming you have even basic firearms training.
Range has a hefty part to play when sending a stream of lead down range. Thus, I'd propose a middle-ground to what's already been done. +2 dice at Close, +0 at Medium, -2 at Long, -6 at Extreme. I made the last range penalty much larger because when you're shooting a full auto weapon at 500 meters, it's going to be VERY difficult to keep things in one spot. Realistically, you'd need the extra gear, strength and or gimmicks to keep the weapon steady to hit something that far away.
That's how I'd run it anyway. It keeps it realistic, and makes it so most anyone could handle it.
Using the standard example of Agility 4, Automatics 4, you'd have the following result:
At close range you'd have 8 dice base, +2 for range, -5 max penalty for full auto run. Overall a -3 dice penalty, assuming no RC. At Extreme range, you'd not hit at all, because of the Dicepool = 0 situation, but that's not entirely unrealistic in my opinion. After all, you're a few hundred meters from your target at that point. Throw GasVent III and some shock pads and you just allowed yourself a chance to hit that sucker at 500 meters. (granted, 1 die, but you're at 500 meters on full auto, for cripes sake! hehe)
Range and Round modifiers for Recoil
Recoil builds up for ever 2 bullets fired (as opposed to every 1 bullet). This alone will cut the recoil to manageable in most any situation, even by the average person. Additionally, the recoil caps at a max penalty of -5. From what I've seen in posts from other people here, in real life, it doesn't matter if you fire 5 or 20 rounds in a stream. After a point, you handle the gun fine and keep your spread contained. This is assuming you have even basic firearms training.
Range has a hefty part to play when sending a stream of lead down range. Thus, I'd propose a middle-ground to what's already been done. +2 dice at Close, +0 at Medium, -2 at Long, -6 at Extreme. I made the last range penalty much larger because when you're shooting a full auto weapon at 500 meters, it's going to be VERY difficult to keep things in one spot. Realistically, you'd need the extra gear, strength and or gimmicks to keep the weapon steady to hit something that far away.
That's how I'd run it anyway. It keeps it realistic, and makes it so most anyone could handle it.
Using the standard example of Agility 4, Automatics 4, you'd have the following result:
At close range you'd have 8 dice base, +2 for range, -5 max penalty for full auto run. Overall a -3 dice penalty, assuming no RC. At Extreme range, you'd not hit at all, because of the Dicepool = 0 situation, but that's not entirely unrealistic in my opinion. After all, you're a few hundred meters from your target at that point. Throw GasVent III and some shock pads and you just allowed yourself a chance to hit that sucker at 500 meters. (granted, 1 die, but you're at 500 meters on full auto, for cripes sake! hehe)
| QUOTE (l33tpenguin) |
| Which I would assume refers to the number of lives lost. Almost no number of bullets is worth the life of a well trained soldier. |
No it's the cost. Being militarily conquered has serious costs. Related is the point that the most expensive luxury possible is having the second best military. Good, but not good enough to win.
| QUOTE (l33tpenguin) |
| I can assure you that the cost of 5.56 and other small arms, 9mm, 45 cal, etc have remained steady over the past several years. That price is only a fraction of the cost that ammunition is in shadowrun. |
Really? Have you tried to buy bulk ammo recently?
AR15.com Ammo Price List
It's not as expensive as SR, but the most common phrase is "OUT OF STOCK", and the price trends have been continous rises.
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