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Critias
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Jul 30 2007, 03:38 PM)
It does create a niche for APDS ammo in pistol-caliber weapons, though...

Reality is that you can't make particularly effective AP ammo for pistols, and what limited AP ammo you can make trades off effectiveness of wounding for the AP effect. Very stable, hard, non-fragmenting or expanding bullets are needed for AP effects. The reverse is wanted for wounding effects.

And the phrase APDS, as used in SR, is another example of the designers learning everything they know about guns from comic books and bad movies.

Pfft. Someone just hasn't watched enough Lethal Weapon lately. All you need is a little teflon, and you can shoot through ANYthing!

"RIGGS! COP KILLAHS!"

Ahh, good stuff.
Ddays
Just putting my 2 cents in there, I have never noticed a trend towards pistols as "super weapons" in my gaming group, at least not because of equivalent damage potential (Definitely for concealment purposes).

A heavy pistol deals 5P -1

All smgs deal 5P, this looks bad yes? But then you factor in burst fire. All smgs actually deal 7P. And you can fire the same number of short bursts within a pass as you can fire semi-automatically.

The only pistol with BF, the Viper Silvergun, has the same damage specs as any SMG loaded with fletchettes.

Fully automatic weapons simply aren't meant to be wielded on foot and the game rules reflect with the massive minuses to hit. However, the heavy weapons are also incredibly effective if the -9 can be cancelled out with recoil compensation as it should be.

Note that I'm not saying that the current rules are true to life, just that the current rules do balance the weapon levels in my opinion. My only wish is for there to be rules on bonus recoil compensation if a runner stays prone and steadies his weapon and for strength to also provide some form of recoil compensation.

Another thing, the Stoner-Ares M202 is completely worthless. No weapon mount can fit it, so it can't fulfil its "military-vehicle" weapon role as well as weapon mounts not providing any recoil compensation for its full-auto fire.
imperialus
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (eidolon)
I see it differently is all.

For one, I don't "not want any rules", I just don't need a rule for every little nit-picky situation. If I did I'd play d20. Rules bloat is enough of a pain in the ass already.
Shadowrun, or any role playing game, does not need to be played 100% the same at every table in the world. WotC might have managed to convince a lot of people otherwise, but that doesn't make their end product any less bland and boring. You can't fix everything with codified rules. When you try, your game becomes unplayable, or those rules are ignored, making them pointless in the first place.

i agree. however, i think the best solution to that is to provide a scaling ruleset, one that's easy to take from simple to detailed. that way, the GM's job is easy--he just decides what level of detail to use, and the rules are there to support him.

So how exactly is this supposed to work? Is a DM supposed to spend weeks before a campaign going through the ruleset and cherry picking rules? How will the playtesters know that every single sit of rule combinations works well together. If you are using advanced firearm rules but simplified magic rules would this shaft mages?

Honestly I'd see it turning into something verymuch like D&D with splatbooks where there are so many rules, 80% of which contradict each other you average DM is driven absolutely insane. Of course some DM's try to limit their campaigns to "simple" rules using say Corebooks only but then you see the WoTC boards swamped with people pissed at their DM's because they won't let them play their halfdragon/teifling/dragonborn, warlock/dikoted ally spirit/ninja.
mfb
well, yes, if it's designed badly, it won't work. that's true of just about anything.
Critias
QUOTE (imperialus)
So how exactly is this supposed to work? Is a DM supposed to spend weeks before a campaign going through the ruleset and cherry picking rules?

As opposed to just making up rules all by himself because the playtesters and developers couldn't be bothered to?

I'd rather buy a rulebook and get more than I want than I'd like to pay for a rulebook and get less than I need.
Ddays
Well, I have to say in defense of DnD, most problems arise not out of too many options but simply bad player dm interaction (isn't it always?).

Players should not complain that they're not allowed to use their character concepts if DMs did not have the time to fully study the sourcebook which details the powers, weaknesses, and backgrounds pertaining to it.

Likewise, DMs should take the time to learn the rules that players are using.

It takes a bit of effort to get the rules down and start playing, and some things definitely aren't as fleshed out as it's supposed to be, but it shouldn't be a free lunch either.

If it were, I would go back to narrating Doom games.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Shrike30)
The trick becomes, then, how do you make class III and IV armors ("combat armor" if you want to call class IIIA "tactical armor") work in this system? I can see an arguement for making them Hardened, but that's about the only way I can see it working.

It does create a niche for APDS ammo in pistol-caliber weapons, though...

I think I've done it with my system. If you are interested in the details, let me know with a PM. I don't think there is enough interest on the boards to me warrant posting my rules for general consumption.

eidolon
@mfb:

Yes, I agree with you. A well designed scaling rule system could work. The pitfalls are as imperialus noted, combined with the fact that WotC has created a wave of new players that are a child of what I jokingly refer to as "player entitlement culture", where because there are 50,000 rules out there, and a player only has to know the fifty that apply to his character, a GM can't tool his game the way he wants it because everyone will just whine and quit.

Thus, it's my opinion that anything not in the game should just be created by those that want it there. Understand that this is partly because I "grew up" on AD&D 2nd edition, where practically everything outside of THAC0 was a house rule. The rest of it comes from a few years of watching systems attempt everything from having three rules, to having badly designed and poorly explained or interpreted "scaling" rulesets, to throwing 1.6 million rules at players hoping that the GM will never have to think that way.

The GM is there for many reasons, and one of the most important is not adjudicating the rules, but adjudicating the lack of rules. It's one of the hardest things, but one that no system or number of rules is ever going to "solve". I think that the more systems and designers try to solve this "problem", the worse a game gets. Eh, I could go on and on about this, but then I'd have to move the thread to General Gaming and bitch myself out.

QUOTE (Ddays)
Likewise, DMs should take the time to learn the rules that players are using.


No offense to you intended, but I consider this to be a load of crap. My first thought when I read such things is that the person in question has never GM'd a game before. I realize that's probably not true very often, but that's what jumps into my mind.

The GM has to make up the world (outside what's provided, that is), the people in it, the story, the challenges, has to keep things on an even keel, and has to learn seventeen books' worth of rules just so a player can play a twinked out ball of cheese? I humbly disagree.
eidolon
Seriously though, if you would like to continue the discussion of ruleset coverage, please jump over to this spinoff thread:

Rules Coverage

My apologies for the hijack.
imperialus
Edit: Whoops. Eidolon posted while I was typing. Moved to the other thread.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Ddays)
Just putting my 2 cents in there, I have never noticed a trend towards pistols as "super weapons" in my gaming group, at least not because of equivalent damage potential (Definitely for concealment purposes).


It's easy to miss if you don't pay close attention, and especially if you haven't been playing SR from 1st edition.

The average Heavy Pistol:
Dmg: 5P-6P, AP: -1/-2, Mode: SA, Ammo: ~15 ©

Ares Viper Slivergun (uberpistol)
Dmg: 8P, AP: +2, Mode: SA/BF, Ammo: 30 ©

Fucking wow. More damage than an AR, more ammo than a shotgun (and comparable damage), and as concealable as a pistol. Even is integrally suppressed. It damn-near outpowers every firearm short of a Sniper Rifle/LMG.

2nd place ubergun goes to a new gun in 4th ed...

Yamaha Sakura Fubuki
Dmg: 4P, AP: -, Mode SA/BF, Recoil Comp: (1), Ammo: 40!!!

Okay, it's no Viper, and the cost alone you could equip a whole team with smartlinked Predator IVs. But damn...it outperforms everything else.



QUOTE
A heavy pistol deals 5P -1


Unless that heavy pistol is a Viper or Fubuki.


QUOTE
All smgs deal 5P, this looks bad yes? But then you factor in burst fire. All smgs actually deal 7P. And you can fire the same number of short bursts within a pass as you can fire semi-automatically.


Right, but the Fubuki and the Viper can burst fire as well. Oh, and the Viper has an equal or larger ammo capacity than all SMGs but the Ingram Smartgun, and does the same damage in BF mode. Oh, and the Fubuki has 8 more shots than the highest capacity SMG in the BBB. Go figure.


QUOTE
The only pistol with BF, the Viper Silvergun, has the same damage specs as any SMG loaded with fletchettes.


Right! But it is a pistol. A suppressed pistol! A suppressed pistol with more ammo than other SMGs. Oh, and it's cheaper thank half of the SMGs in the book!



QUOTE
Fully automatic weapons simply aren't meant to be wielded on foot and the game rules reflect with the massive minuses to hit. However, the heavy weapons are also incredibly effective if the -9 can be cancelled out with recoil compensation as it should be.


Sorry hoss, but I'm gonna have to dispute that. For two years, Uncle Sam had me carry an M-60. Now, the best shooting I did was in the prone, but that weapon system is most certainly designed to be "wielded on foot". And when we got issued SAWs (LMGs), it was just that much sweeter. And yes, I could easily hit targets while standing up and firing from the shoulder. And if you think RL autofire is REALLY that uncontrollable, you need to watch
this, this, and this.


QUOTE
Note that I'm not saying that the current rules are true to life, just that the current rules do balance the weapon levels in my opinion.


But they don't. When two particular pistols pretty much trump all of the rest of the ranged weapons, that's not balance. That's flat-fucking stupidity.



QUOTE
My only wish is for there to be rules on bonus recoil compensation if a runner stays prone and steadies his weapon and for strength to also provide some form of recoil compensation.


Yes. Prone/benchrest shooting does need to be a lot better than it currently is. Or shooting non-supported needs to be a whole lot worse.


QUOTE
Another thing, the Stoner-Ares M202 is completely worthless. No weapon mount can fit it, so it can't fulfil its "military-vehicle" weapon role as well as weapon mounts not providing any recoil compensation for its full-auto fire.


[sarcasm]Sounds like balance to me.[/sarcasm]
Spike
Current ballistics studies tend to show that rifles, particularly assault rifles, don't do appreciably more damage per shot than pistols. The advantages of a rifle over a pistol are range and, typically, ammo capacity. Range, naturally, implies a degree of accuracy.

High end hunting rifles... which would trend towards sniper rifles... to the point that I'm not certain why SR makes a point of there being two catagories there... would do more damage than assault rifles. Typically, however, such rifles throw bigger rounds down range and use softer bullets that expand better, though they cost more.

Still, I agree that the viper and the fubuki definitely look overpowered, though I suspect part of that is that the viper fires flechettes (As I recall...).

I agree that the ammo is over the top, and the most important thing not taken into consideration is that recoil is going to be much worse in a comparatively tiny pistol than a comparable rifle or reasonably bulky SMG. Based on the numbers a Skorpion should be the dominant weapon in use now, being a pistol sized weapon with a high ammo cap and full auto capability, but aside from presumably ex-kgb russian mafia types, I don't know of anyone who uses one. Presumably range and control are the deciding factors in real life.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Spike)
Current ballistics studies tend to show that rifles, particularly assault rifles, don't do appreciably more damage per shot than pistols. The advantages of a rifle over a pistol are range and, typically, ammo capacity. Range, naturally, implies a degree of accuracy.


Careful in your generalizations. Here are some images to take a look at:

Pistol Wound Patterns

9x19mm Parabellum (124gr FMJ): http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wou...20US%20M882.jpg
.357 Mag (125gr JSP): http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wou...57%20Magnum.jpg
.45 ACP (185gr JHP): http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wou...20WW%20STHP.jpg


Rifle Wound Patterns

5.56x45mm US M855 (M16): http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wou...ofiles/M855.jpg
7.62x39mm Soviet (AK-47): http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wou...%20762x39mm.jpg
7.62x51mm NATO M80 (M-60): http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wou...rofiles/M80.jpg

12 Gauge Shotgun 1oz. Slug: http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wou...ster%20Slug.jpg
12 Gauge Shotgun 1.25 oz. #4 Buckshot: http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wou...%20Buckshot.jpg


In general, at under 50 meters, high-velocity rifle rounds will tend to fragment on contact with a semi-liquid medium like (meta)human flesh. Beyond 50 meters, the projectiles will tend to hold together better, but will often tumble. So sub-50 meters, your conventional AR ammunition will do about the same amount of tissue damage as your average defensive handgun cartridge.

All else being equal, I'd much rather fight with my AR than with my sidearm.



QUOTE
High end hunting rifles... which would trend towards sniper rifles... to the point that I'm not certain why SR makes a point of there being two catagories there... would do more damage than assault rifles. Typically, however, such rifles throw bigger rounds down range and use softer bullets that expand better, though they cost more.


Indeed. .308 winchester, .30-06, .300 WinMag, .338 Lapua, etc...

Incidently, the M-14 EBR, HK G3, HK417, and FN SCAR-H are all "Assault/Battle Rifles" chambered in .308 (7.62x51mm NATO).


QUOTE

Still, I agree that the viper and the fubuki definitely look overpowered, though I suspect part of that is that the viper fires flechettes (As I recall...).


Still silly. The Steyr ACR was designed around a sub-caliber flechette, and it's projected wounding capabilities were extremely sub-par.

QUOTE
I agree that the ammo is over the top, and the most important thing not taken into consideration is that recoil is going to be much worse in a comparatively tiny pistol than a comparable rifle or reasonably bulky SMG.


But with the abstract recoil rules in the BBB, you don't get that. Yes, hitting shit with a full-auto Glock 18 is a whole different beast than hitting stuff with a fixed-stock MP5 on full-auto. Too bad the rules don't properly represent that.


QUOTE
Based on the numbers a Skorpion should be the dominant weapon in use now, being a pistol sized weapon with a high ammo cap and full auto capability, but aside from presumably ex-kgb russian mafia types, I don't know of anyone who uses one.  Presumably range and control are the deciding factors in real life.


Indeed. Silliness abounds...
Spike
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)


All else being equal, I'd much rather fight with my AR than with my sidearm.



Not disagreeing, but that's got more to do with the range and accuracy and less to do with wound profiles.

Two months ago I would have posted my own links to articles from forensic studies. Now I'm not sure if I can find them.

Here's the thing: Many ARs, even possibly most of them fire .223, not .308. Milspec rounds use steel cores which don't deform. The AK family, which uses something closer to the .308 fires with significantly less power than the .308, having a shorter case... essentially its a chunky .223.

The core point is that the biggest killer with firearms is 'shot placement' followed somewhat distantly by 'bleed out'. In both cases larger calibres give you a larger margin of error. Cavitation is only really important if you talk 'permanent cavity'... that is tearing from the cavitation; again, the larger rounds give larger permanent cavities, period. Tumbling isn't a factor: All rounds tumble, bigger rounds are bigger on the tumble too. Fragmentation of the slug is surprisingly less useful: Fragments are often too small to penetrate much beyond the point of impact, and do significantly less damage to vital organs they happen to intersect.

This is all debateable of course. Experts who work in the feild can barely agree, how so us amatures on the intarwebz?
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Spike)
QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jul 31 2007, 11:10 AM)


All else being equal, I'd much rather fight with my AR than with my sidearm.


Not disagreeing, but that's got more to do with the range and accuracy and less to do with wound profiles.


Touche'. wink.gif



QUOTE
Two months ago I would have posted my own links to articles from forensic studies.  Now I'm not sure if I can find them.


I'll wait happily for you to find them and post them. I consume shit like that the way privates consume beer/ammo/hookers.


QUOTE
Here's the thing: Many ARs, even possibly most of them  fire .223, not .308. Milspec rounds use steel cores which don't deform.  The AK family, which uses something closer to the .308 fires with significantly less power than the .308, having a shorter case... essentially its a chunky .223.


Sorta. The Army currently issues it's Infantry the M855 round, which will fragment in close range targets. As for other armies in the world using 5.56mm, I don't know enough to say. And though 5.56 is the most common AR caliber, we are seeing a push for intermediate cartridges like the Remington 6.8SPC and the 6.5mm Grendel. I feel like those cartridges would be far more common in SR's future. Hell, we've even see the .308 making a comeback, though mostly in DMR and SpecOp platforms. And the 7.62x39mm could certainly be grouped with the intermediate cartridges I spoke of above.


QUOTE
The core point is that the biggest killer with firearms is 'shot placement'...


AMEN MA BROTHA!!!! wink.gif


QUOTE
...followed somewhat distantly by 'bleed out'.  In both cases larger calibres give you a larger margin of error.  Cavitation is only really important if you talk 'permanent cavity'... that is tearing from the cavitation; again, the larger rounds give larger permanent cavities, period. Tumbling isn't a factor: All rounds tumble, bigger rounds are bigger on the tumble too.  Fragmentation of the slug is surprisingly less useful: Fragments are often too small to penetrate much beyond the point of impact, and do significantly less damage to vital organs they happen to intersect.


Indeed. Outside of major CNS damage, the blood loss is the real killer. And yes, larger diameter projectiles tend poke bigger holes in people, and are more likely to hit that CNS sweet spot. No real arguments here.

QUOTE
This is all debateable of course. Experts who work in the feild can barely agree, how so us amateurs on the intarwebz?


At least we can agree that having handguns be overall more effective when dealing with just about every type of threat than ARs truly means the devs were smoking some shit...
kzt
QUOTE (Spike)
Here's the thing: Many ARs, even possibly most of them fire .223, not .308. Milspec rounds use steel cores which don't deform. The AK family, which uses something closer to the .308 fires with significantly less power than the .308, having a shorter case... essentially its a chunky .223.

Just about rounds (other than .45 APC IIRC) will eventually rotate. Many just flip 180 and don't break up. Many only flip 180 after a distance that exceeds the typical depth of a human and will typically cleanly exit, like AK bullets, nose first. Some rotate and break up. 5.56 rotates and breaks up after minimal penetration at high velocity, whether it's m885 or M193. IIRC, so does German 7.62 mm NATO FMJ, unlike US 7.62 FMJ. Fragmentation of the round means that all the energy of the round is delivered to the target, enlarges the wound cavity and is more likely to damage something important.
mfb
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
At least we can agree that having handguns be overall more effective when dealing with just about every type of threat than ARs...

now, i agree with you that the AVS is, and always has been, ridiculously broken. however, aside from that, i'm not sure heavy pistols are all that awesome--or, at least, it's not really their stats that make them awesome. the biggest problem with pistols is the fact that slapping a scope on them negates almost all of their range issues. most engagements i've been in, in SR, have been inside 50m, which makes a pistol with a scope your best choice.
Aku
except, pistols dont have any mounts to put a scope on, do they?
Cursedsoul
Pistols have a barrel and a top mount so yep, there's room. Its on page 301-302 of the BBB in the black sidebar.
Fortune
QUOTE (Aku @ Aug 1 2007, 12:17 PM)
except, pistols dont have any mounts to put a scope on, do they?

We can always just settle for Vision Magnification.
Narmio
These threads always seem to disintegrate into talking about real world guns and posting autofire videos and wound profiles over and over while people argue the same points that were argued three months earlier. I don't know a damn thing about real world firearms, what I'm interested in is maintaining the suspension of disbelief in my games. So let's talk about the SR4 rules for pistols.

One thing people always seem to forget in damage comparison threads is just how variable the system can be, so let's ignore average numbers of hits and all that jazz and stick to how much base damage the gun is putting down range. I'm also going to be assuming that people can soak two short bursts of recoil per phase, which is pretty easy, especially with the augmentation rules making cyberarm gyromounts more attractive. I'm also only going to mention ammo loads in extreme circumstances, I've never had a combat go for so long that automatic weapons needed reloading, SR combats are usually over in two or three turns, so the difference between 30 and 40 ammo isn't that important. Automatic shotguns with 10 ammo, however, are. Everything else seems to just get tactical reloads.

So, numbers. Runners use Ex-ex, APDS or Stick 'n' Shock, but I despise the latter and it doesn't make any distinction between firearms, damage wise, so let's just stick with Ex-ex for now. The basic heavy pistol then does a "raw" damage of 6.66. The basic machine pistol does 7.33, the basic SMG does 8.33 and the basic assault rifle does 9.66. These seem pretty balanced to me, especially considering that almost all the time all of those examples are going to need two shots (or two bursts) to down any reasonable target. With an AR, you have a significantly higher chance of putting him down in one, but in my experience it will take a least a full pass.

Now, let's look at the proud nails problem: The AVS, the Fubuki and for comparison, the Mossberg AM-CMDT.

The AVS is and has always been a problem. It does a base of 8P(+5) with the erratad ammo rules, and so that comes to 8.33, equal to an SMG, but vastly more likely to be doing Stun damage (if that's an issue). That seems a little over the top, to me, you could expect it to do a little extra damage in exchange for the inability to load it with different rounds, but I don't think it needs BOTH one extra base damage over other pistols (before flechette calcultion) and the ability to burst fire.

The Fubuki is very interesting. The first thing that comes to mind is using Stick and Shock, despite the fact that it's clearly an electrically triggered Metalstorm weapon, but there are no explicit rules against that and I swore I wouldn't talk about SnS here. So we load it with ExEx like everything else and its base damage becomes 7.33, identical in almost every way to a machine pistol, except more concealable and significantly easier to recoil compensate. It's a powerful gun, but it's also pretty expensive and recognisable, I'm OK with this one, although I might prefer it was re-classified as a machine pistol, even if it kept part of the concealment bonus.

Now, the auto-shotgun. Forget the choke rules, they're a good way to do nothing but damage bystanders, Shadowrun is an armour-filled world and that's pretty much how it should be. So, burst firing this baby does a scary-looking 11P(+5), for 9.33 damage, less than an alpha, with no recoil compensation (not even a stock!) and you're going to very quickly run into ammo problems. I'd like to say a longarms samurai was viable outside of a sniping role, but that will have to wait until Arsenal comes out. So shotguns are a little suboptimal unless you're lured by the coolness factor, but if you are, you're not going to get pasted, you're just not going to blow things away in one shot.

So, in conclusion, I'll say what everyone knows already. Runners only ever really use the Ingram Smartgun and the Alpha, but those are only a bit better than their peers in any case. The AVS is as always a pain in the arse, handing out assault rifle damage with pistol concealability, but its range is poor and it's terrible at firing through cover, because the AP gets applied twice there. Everything else, however, is only a few small points here and there, and at the end of the day you can still build a respectable sam who uses a pair of warhawks, an automatic shotgun, or an LMG. You'd be a bit better off with a Fubuki, AVS, Ingram or Alpha, but the proud nails don't really kill players looking to play something interesting.

Except for Stick n' Shock, of course.

[EDIT: Re: scoped pistols. Using a scope takes a simple action, halving your damage potential for that pass. Pretty big disadvantage.]
Ddays
Another thing most people overlook, the Fubuki is MUZZLE LOADED (IE pain in the ass when you do run out of ammo)

And yes the Viper has near assault rifle damage out of the box, but it can only fire fletchettes, and dammit, sometimes you want EX Explosive. You trade versatility for out of the box power.

As for the vids on full auto fire, maybe the noticeable jerk was an indication otherwise, but that looks fairly inaccurate to me. Suppressive fire, unless you're telling me over 50% of those shots hit just from the grimace on the shooter's face.

edited to say that:
I completely agree with Narmio on his points about the weapons.

And on the guy who said that it's bad for GMs to know the rules the players want to play:

Uh, I have been a DM and a player and I understand the desire to play cool characters. As a DM, I try to learn about what my players want to play so that my players can have fun, not to subvert them to my story and desires. Tabletop games are for FUN, and some people have different definitions of what fun is.
Whipstitch
Yeah, unfortunately, the AM-CMDT is a niche weapon for longarm specialists or characters who simply suck so bad at shooting that medium/wide choke with wide bursts is one of their few paths to threatening damage. A friend of mine who created a Sniper/AR Drone Rigger has utilized it to great effect before when forced into close quarters (A full narrow burst wide spread can cause a ridiculous amount of stun and knockdowns), but it's still no Alpha.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Ddays)

Another thing, the Stoner-Ares M202 is completely worthless. No weapon mount can fit it, so it can't fulfil its "military-vehicle" weapon role as well as weapon mounts not providing any recoil compensation for its full-auto fire.

I hardly ever look in here because SR4 is scary, but...

Isn't the original "stoner" a modular rifle used by Navy SEALs back in the Vietnam War, which was prone to mechanical failure when dirty but which accepted a large box magazine which made it a favorite?
Crusher Bob
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Isn't the original "stoner" a modular rifle used by Navy SEALs back in the Vietnam War, which was prone to mechanical failure when dirty but which accepted a large box magazine which made it a favorite?


A check on the guy's Wikipedia entry should enlighten you
kzt
QUOTE (Ddays)
As for the vids on full auto fire, maybe the noticeable jerk was an indication otherwise, but that looks fairly inaccurate to me. Suppressive fire, unless you're telling me over 50% of those shots hit just from the grimace on the shooter's face.

Try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUbkrwQI6TY&NR=1 They show the target pretty clearly at the end.

The main problem with videos that show more interesting stuff by people who look more competent shooting is that you can't really see effects on the target. This one, for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYylSbmIP3I You will notice that the guns shooting are pretty stable, even when the people are moving and shooting. But you can't really see the hits on the targets.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Aug 1 2007, 01:26 AM)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Isn't the original "stoner" a modular rifle used by Navy SEALs back in the Vietnam War, which was prone to mechanical failure when dirty but which accepted a large box magazine which made it a favorite?


A check on the guy's Wikipedia entry should enlighten you

*goooooonnnnggg*

I have been enlightened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoner_63

That's the weapon I was talking about earlier, by the way.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (Ddays @ Jul 31 2007, 10:24 PM)
As for the vids on full auto fire, maybe the noticeable jerk was an indication otherwise, but that looks fairly inaccurate to me. Suppressive fire, unless you're telling me over 50% of those shots hit just from the grimace on the shooter's face.

Try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUbkrwQI6TY&NR=1 They show the target pretty clearly at the end.

The main problem with videos that show more interesting stuff by people who look more competent shooting is that you can't really see effects on the target. This one, for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYylSbmIP3I You will notice that the guns shooting are pretty stable, even when the people are moving and shooting. But you can't really see the hits on the targets.

I'll agree that yes, in most of the videos you cannot see the effect on the target. However, none of the videos I posted look like what SR rules would describe as a -9 penalty for full autofire. You do realize that a shooter with 5 AGI and a 5 skill would have a single die to roll in those cases in the videos. Bullshit.

The thing people with no experience can't seem to get their head around is that real auto-fire is about rhythm. When hold down that trigger, it doesn't take a decently trained shooter long to adjust to the steady rhythm of the weapon's cycle. From that point, most autofire is fairly controllable. At close range, you will be putting lots of holes in your target. Yes, some of the rounds will miss, but plenty will hit. At longer range, you will put far fewer holes in your target, but realistically you will have a greater chance to hit with at least one round.

4th ed rules take a step in the right direction with the Wide/Narrow burst concept, but they still rule recoil as pretty unmanageable without considerable equipment additions/modifications.

That is just plain wrong.
kzt
There are a couple of videos that I looked at while finding those two that looked like someone getting handed an MP5 for the first time and firing it with reasonable accuracy on full auto. There was coaching and such involved, but nothing that looked like the SR4 narrative of bullets flying everywhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFi7ge31L_o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HNRCMMs7j0

My one experience of firing an MP5 was similar. It's quite controllable, I dumped most of one magazine in a 10 inch circle at 20-30 feet. My friend next to me with the AK-47 had more difficulty, but it wasn't "bullets flying everywhere" either.

Which is a long way of saying I agree.
Tetsuyama
From what I can tell, range has largely been left out of this discussion. It hasn't been uncommon that we've had to engage a second group of hostiles (typically including a mage - why they don't want to be closer to us I don't know) at more than 50m, sometimes over 100m. I don't have my book with me, so I don't know where the slivergun or the Fubuki top out, but I know my Predator hasn't had the range to take on some subset of our opposition in more than one firefight. Fortunately we usually post a guy in the Shadowrun moral equivalent of a ghillie suit with Remington 700 in .308. biggrin.gif
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Tetsuyama)
From what I can tell, range has largely been left out of this discussion. It hasn't been uncommon that we've had to engage a second group of hostiles (typically including a mage - why they don't want to be closer to us I don't know) at more than 50m, sometimes over 100m. I don't have my book with me, so I don't know where the slivergun or the Fubuki top out, but I know my Predator hasn't had the range to take on some subset of our opposition in more than one firefight. Fortunately we usually post a guy in the Shadowrun moral equivalent of a ghillie suit with Remington 700 in .308. biggrin.gif

That's an excellent example of how the game supports choice.

However, in most of the games I run and have played in, it's rare for someone over 50m away from you to have line of sight (dense urban environment after all). Same thing goes for the Sniper support guy. The best I've seen is a sniper positioned on top of a crane with LOS to the docks down below.

But in a conventional SR mission...especially one that takes place mostly indoors, it's highly unlikely that you will be able to see anything that is 50m away or further, much less engage.
Whipstitch
My group has been toying with the idea of giving characters who choose to make nothing but Take Aim actions for a full pass recoil compensation equal to half of the appropriate weapon skill in addition to the normal bonus on their next attack that fits the Take Aim requirements. Basically, we agree that automatic weapons should be easier to handle, but only when taking the time to use the appropriate techniques. Otherwise we assume that standard shadowrun shoot outs consist of the pray 'n' spray tomfoolery that directly leads to the ridiculously low hitrate found in RL firefights.

[EDITED]
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Whipstitch)
The people we see in all these clips are not in combat situations, and are certainly not in the kind of combat situations that happen in Shadowrun.


I'll agree with this part.


QUOTE
They are not running around making use of their veteran level gymnastic skills to dodge hails of gunfire nor are they hyped up on combat drugs/wired reflexes.


The last time I checked, Wired Reflexes doesn't make it more difficult to control a firearm during autofire operation, at least not according to the BBB. And I think running around and making mad use of one's veteran gymnastics skill to dodge a hail of gunfire would either A.) put you on full defense, precluding being able to shoot at all or B.) penalize your dice pool with movement modifiers, which happens whether you are firing full-auto or single shots. Again, it doesn't specifically influence one's ability to hit with autofire more than it influences anything else.


QUOTE
They're standing there bracing themselves against the stock...


Just to be clear, this is EXACTLY how anyone with a skill of 3 or higher should be using any type of shoulder fired longarm. Also, in some of those videos the shooters aren't just standing there. They are moving, quite rapidly, through the equivalent of an indoor environment, engaging multiple targets across short intervals. Sounds like SR combat to me.


QUOTE
...and taking a couple of consecutive Aim actions against stationary targets (remember, 3 second combat rounds).



"A couple of consecutive Aim actions" is going to be 3 full seconds for anyone without Wired Reflexes or something similar. And my guess is the people in these videos are mundanes. And no, in several of the videos, it doesn't look like the people are taking a full 3 seconds to Aim. And even if they are, SR tells us that those Take Aim actions will give the shooter 2 more dice. So that brings their -9 dice recoil penalty down to -7. So you are telling me those shooters look like they are shooting with a -7 to hit. So they all must have at least Agi 4 and Skill 4 to even have a chance to connect with the target. Again, bullshit.


QUOTE
My group has been toying with the idea of giving characters who choose to remain stationary for an entire combat turn (this disallows the option of full defense, might I add) recoil compensation equal to half of the appropriate weapon skill. We agree that automatic weapons should be easier to handle, but only when taking the time to use the appropriate techniques. Otherwise we assume that standard shadowrun shoot outs consist of the pray 'n' spray tomfoolery that directly leads to the ridiculously low hitrate found in RL firefights.



That's a step in the right direction. But it sucks that we have make house rules just for shit like auto fire to make sense.

Spike
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)


QUOTE
Two months ago I would have posted my own links to articles from forensic studies.  Now I'm not sure if I can find them.


I'll wait happily for you to find them and post them. I consume shit like that the way privates consume beer/ammo/hookers.


QUOTE
Here's the thing: Many ARs, even possibly most of them  fire .223, not .308. Milspec rounds use steel cores which don't deform.  The AK family, which uses something closer to the .308 fires with significantly less power than the .308, having a shorter case... essentially its a chunky .223.


Sorta. The Army currently issues it's Infantry the M855 round, which will fragment in close range targets. As for other armies in the world using 5.56mm, I don't know enough to say. And though 5.56 is the most common AR caliber, we are seeing a push for intermediate cartridges like the Remington 6.8SPC and the 6.5mm Grendel. I feel like those cartridges would be far more common in SR's future. Hell, we've even see the .308 making a comeback, though mostly in DMR and SpecOp platforms. And the 7.62x39mm could certainly be grouped with the intermediate cartridges I spoke of above.



At least we can agree that having handguns be overall more effective when dealing with just about every type of threat than ARs truly means the devs were smoking some shit...

Analysis of AR wounding potential

This article is one of several that suggest that, in law enforcement related shootings anyway, that the Shotgun is the number one killer.


The link I had to 'The Myth of energy Transfer' is broken, sadly.

Here is another one which is a compilation of other links.

Wound Ballistics


The M855 does indeed fragment under 200m, the closer to the target, the more extreme the fragmentation. However, since this tends to occur within 4-5 inches of penetration and the resultant fragments do not travel more than 3 inches, this fails to meet the 'industry standard' 12-15 inches of penetration for 'terminal ballistics' that is used by, for example, the FBI (in response to the Pittman massacre).


Now, to bring this back around to Shadowrun: Shotguns are underpowered? Maybe, but body armor is probably a factor there. Assault Rifles are good penetrators, and handguns are just about as lethal as they need to be. If your players are overly 'gaming' their handgun power, put them on a job that includes open fields, guards with rifles and really make them measure their movement. At 300+ yards they won't even be able to hit, while taking fire themselves.

Also: Given the '2 inititative passes' combat lengths being quoted, (which matches my expirences), I wonder if the fault is the system or the GM? Are environmental factors coming into play? Do the enemy take cover, use tactics? A recent firefight that was featured on the news was 45 minutes long, I imagine it would take a long time to play out... Is the problem that players expect to hit with every (almost every?) shot, unrealistic in most combat situations?

I suspect it's a combination, naturally. Still, if the bad guys aren't mooks, and play like the Runners do, I think gun battles might be a bit more memorable. Magic used more defensively, for example, bad guys that pop thermal smoke to cover their maneuvers... this bears thinking about (and, hopefully, I'll play it out soon and report back...)
kzt
Shotguns are horribly lethal, and isn't fully reflected in the rules. Being hit with 9 .32 cal bullets is just bad for your health. However it gets kind of painful from a rules aspect to reflect the close range lethality without making it a super weapon able to kill everyone within extreme range.

In SR4 terms that would be a long narrow burst from a light pistol. The issue is that each of the pieces of buckshot is stopped separately by body armor, so you should get a big bonus to armor. So If I was going to make changes, I'd probably go from +2 to +4/5 to reflect it in the rules, but with a DV of "light pistol" to determine stun vs physical damage. If you did this you should trim that damage bonus as range increase, but that might end up being too much of a pain.

But I'm reasonably happy with the games treatment of slugs.
stable_sort
What were the pre-errata modifications for Flechette ammo? My printing includes the +5 AP modifier. It also says that flechette weapons already account for the modifiers, which doesn't jive for the AVS, Remington Roomsweeper, or any other such weapon.
Jaid
pre-errata was the same except only +2 AP.

they errated the ammo, they didn't seem to ever get around to errating the guns with that ammo pre-factored in however. whether that was an oversight or not is unknown, but i suspect they intended for it to be changed also.
Spike
QUOTE (kzt)
Shotguns are horribly lethal, and isn't fully reflected in the rules. Being hit with 9 .32 cal bullets is just bad for your health. However it gets kind of painful from a rules aspect to reflect the close range lethality without making it a super weapon able to kill everyone within extreme range.

The most common mistake regarding shotguns in gaming in general (and Shadowrun did it too... at least in earlier edtions) is that they aren't really going to be good for hitting 'lots of people' per shot. I understand the maximum spread of shot is a roughly meter diameter circle... not exactly precision but I wouldn't call it an 'area effect' weapon either.

I suppose one oddball method of dealing with it would be to literally treat a sucessful hit as a number of... um... holdout pistol hits? X number of successes adds to the 'mean hits' up to 9 or so maximum, and each range band reduces the mean by 2 (down to zero, which can be 'bought up' with successes. Each 'hit' allows one to either add another 'shot' or is applied to the damage of each 'shot'.

Ugh. It just feels too ugly to use, however.
Eryk the Red
Actually, if you wanted, you could use the shotgun spread rules as written, but specifically disallow hitting multiple targets. It's not great, because you get penalized on DV and AP, but you still get the penalty to the defender's Reaction roll. That's really the point of firing shot, anyway, right? Making it more likely to hit the target.
Whipstitch
@WoundedRonin

Sorry I changed that post so much while you were replying to it. I glitched my edit check and took a ridiculous amount of time paring down my thoughts when I should of just did it right the first time. Anyway, I agree with your points, for the most part, and even the houserule my group is considering is at best an imperfect solution though. It helps make skilled samurai with 6 automatics skill perform long narrow bursts without penalty, but you're right when you say that an average marksmen with only 2 or 3 skill would still be lucky to toss more than a die or two at a full auto test.
Blink
QUOTE (Aku @ Jul 31 2007, 09:17 PM)
except, pistols dont have any mounts to put a scope on, do they?

Red dots and holographic sights are used on competition race guns (IPSC, etc). They typically use pictanty rails. Actual scopes are also used on bolt action handguns. I think it is a rather stupid thing to have on a hand gun (kind of top heavy), but apparently some people like them.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Whipstitch)
@WoundedRonin


I think this was actually aimed at me, since I'm the one who was actually quoting you. But no worries. wink.gif


QUOTE
<snip>...you're right when you say that an average marksmen with only 2 or 3 skill would still be lucky to toss more than a die or two at a full auto test.


That's actually not what I meant, or maybe not exactly what I meant. I blame my rush to communicate and failure to proofread. cool.gif

What I was trying to say is that per canon rules a shooter firing a 10-shot full-auto burst from non-compensated, non-smartlinked automatic would HAVE to have a combined AGI and SKILL pool of at least 8 to be able to roll a single die, and that ONLY works if said character burns two simple actions "Taking Aim".

Here is an example for you:

Soldier Bob has AGI 3 (Typical) and AUTOMATICS 5 (Expert/SWAT/Special Forces), giving him 8 dice. If he wants to even be able to shoot his AK-97 on full auto, he needs to spend 2 simple actions on the "take aim" action. That will give him 2 more dice to roll. So he now has a dice pool of 10. So when he shoots 10 rounds from his AK, he suffers a -9 penalty due to recoil. Bob only gets to roll a single die in his attack test, and that is ONLY if the target is within 50 meters. Any further out, and his dicepool drops to 0.

So to recap, I am stating that the RULES AS WRITTEN state that your Special Forces guy firing a 10-shot burst from an AK only gets to roll a single die to hit, and that is AFTER taking two "take aim" actions.

And I call that B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T. Yes, that is the way it is printed in cannon. And yes, it is fucktarded.

I apologize if it sounds like I am directing my hostility at you. I am not. This sort of silly rules shit just gets to me.
Critias
And shows not just an issue with recoil and combat rules, but yet another issue with the hard cap on skills/stats, and the way-out-of-wack descriptors for what the various skill levels mean.
Schaeffer
Have any versions of Shadowrun ever done a good job of handling autofire?
Critias
No. Which is why many of us were hoping SR4 (which was by far the one with, otherwise, the broadest, boldest, changes) would stop the vicious cycle.
Whipstitch
Yeah, to effectively use full auto weapons at all you're pretty much forced to get a gyromount or otherwise create the sort of combat monster that a lot of people frown upon for being one dimensional.
Jaid
QUOTE (Whipstitch)
Yeah, to effectively use full auto weapons at all you're pretty much forced to get a gyromount or otherwise create the sort of combat monster that a lot of people frown upon for being one dimensional.

or just use the recoil comp devices that are provided.

a shock pad with a gas vent III gives you 4 points of recoil comp... which is enough to fire 3 short bursts and take only a -1 penalty on the second burst. that's not all that bad.
Whipstitch
Well, I meant the full auto mode. My bad.
Jaid
QUOTE (Whipstitch)
Well, I meant the full auto mode. My bad.

true... unless of course you just bust out some suppressive fire.
Critias
Which, instead, entails flinging most of the ranged combat rules of the game right out the window (including any sort of requirement to even have the right skill, all the recoil stuff we've mentioned, smartlinks doing any good, not being able to see your target in the first place, how dodging works, you name it).

If that's not it's own can of worms, I don't know what is.
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