Since it comes into being inside the ward, how does it differ from a spell that is cast inside the ward?

:applauds:

Works for me.

-K.

I can't really express it any better than Adarael.

This is correct. Ritual magic works based on the Law of Association (Sota 63, page 32) which states: If two subjects or objects have one or more factors in common, then they interact through those commonalities and facilitate control over one or the other.

This means, that in targeting the sympathetic link ritually, the magician is actually targeting the ritual target (thus bypassing LOS). This does not mean that the effect simply teleports to the target and poofs into being however (no teleporting, remember?). Various folk are correct in stating that the spell does not travel from the ritual team to the target as well - you aren't going to see a lightning bolt ripping around the world to strike some schmuck (astrally or physically). However, this does not mean that the spell uses some mythical "third route" akin to a metaplanar shortcut to get to the target as Frank states. In fact, the spell doesn't get to the target at all.

In all previous editions, ritual sorcery has been divided into two stages, the targeting and the actual sending (MitS page 37). This has been collapsed into one stage in SR4 to streamline the process - a mistake IMO. The targeting phase and test was the point in which the ritual team forged a functional magical link (made possible by the Law of Association) with the target. Logically, what is a magical link folks? A connection forged of mana. The same thing as a bond between a magician and his trusty power focus. When the link is forged, the second part of the ritual begins - the sending. What the sending does is builds the spell around the target, manipulating the ambient mana at the target's location to do so remotely via the ritual link.

I bolded that because it is crucial to understanding how this works. As you can see, the spell doesn't teleport or "third way" to the target, but it is rather formed around the target remotely. The ritual link is vital to this process, just like the wireless signal between a jumped-in rigger and his drone is vital from him to run the drone. Since that link is composed of mana, it will be hindered by anything that prevents the motion of mana, just like jamming or other interference degrades the signal between the drone and the rigger. Physical walls don't do that, but magical barriers (lodges, barrier spells, and wards) do - it's what they are designed to do.

When the time for the sending rolls around, too much interference in the link makes the formation of the actual spell effect more difficult, meaning impaired results (spell defense, btw works in the same manner (see SR4, page 176). In game terms, the ward's Force adds to the target's resistance dice pool, just like spell defense does.

Now, why does all this work in SR4? Because we know that this link is present and can be viewed (and tracked) astrally:

SR4, page 175
For the duration of the ritual, a link is present between the spotter’s
astral form and the ritual group. If the spotter is noticed by the
target, it is possible to use the link to track her back to the ritual
team’s physical location. See Astral Tracking, p. 185.

So, yes this means that Joe Wagemage can be walking down the street in MSP, look up (astrally perceiving) and see the ritual link between the Ritual Assassin Team in New York and their hapless victim in Seattle (logically, the link would take the shortest path of least resistance between the caster and target IMO). I would imagine this link would be very faint and hard to notice (5+ hits on an Assensing test) unless one was at either end of it, but it would logically be possible to notice it.

Thus it is written, thus it has always been, thus it shall be. QED

Another unfortunate design choice IMO, since it takes the "location" of a spell from being clearly defined as the astral plane and puts it into some ill-defined in-between "place". IMO it would have been better to state that yes, spells have as astral form, but it is diffuse enough that it cannot be harmed in astral combat but rather only be undone by the Counterspelling skill.

Is this the developers/writers collective intent on Ritual Spellcasting?

Does a ward interfere with a spell cast from within that ward? Where is the point of origin of a ritual spell then? Can the spell originate from within the warded volume?

No. I put writer's intention (note the singular possessive) in there intentionally. It is my intention only, which can be totally trumped by an official FAQ/errata statement.

More of my personal intentions:

No.

Technically, the point of origin of a ritual spellcast would be at the sympathetic object (or its astral shadow).

It can, but the ability to remotely manipulate mana, which is what a ritual spellcast is doing, depends entirely on the strength of the sympathetic link, which is affected by the ward.

As for whether my intention matches up with Peter's intention, I don't know. I haven't talked to Peter about this before. If he needs to overrule me with an official statement, that's cool by me.

And I quoted Peter's post as well intentionally.

What is the point of origin for a astral spotter ritual spell?

Mechanically, this should work similar to a normal, non-ritual spellcast. The spotter is choosing a target using line-of-sight, and the point of origin for the spell is at the chosen target. Note that a ward can prevent him from picking a useful target, though.

Awesome, this is perfect thanks!

So the bottom line answer to my original question would be: "Wards do subtract their rating from all spellcasting and ritual spellcasting tests against a target who is inside the warded volume from outside the warded volume."

Followup questions:

• Is the ward rating also subtracted from the attempt to create the symbolic link in the first place?
• Would background counts/domains/mana static spells be subtracted from ritual spellcasting and symbolic link creation tests?
• Can you add all this to the FAQ?

Also, "especifically" is my new favorite word.

No. The target of the spell adds the Force of the barrier to their resistance dice pool.

As the lead developer on Street Magic, Jay's approach matches my own.

Agreed. See my earlier post.

To clarify: while Jay is correct about the spell using the sympathetic link to target someone, however the "point of origin" of a ritual spell is actually where it is for any spell at whoever is casting it, and in the case of ritual spells that's the ritual leader (and not the astral spotter since spotters aren't strictly necessary).

So you're saying that a normal ritual spell cast through an astral spotter would have to get the spotter through the ward (because the ward is astrally opaque and the spotter cannot spot through it), and then the spellcasting would be opposed by the ward anyway?

That sounds an awful lot like double jeopardy.

-Frank

That's my interpretation.

Obviously, the best time to use ritual sorcery is when the target is not inside a ward.

The point of origin is still the ritual team, casting through the link - thus being hindered by the ward.

If the spotter casts a spell himself, he would not be hindered in doing so... but usually, he wouldn't be able to cast at all, since usually he is astral and his target is physical.

Where did I say that?

No, if you get the spotter inside the ward, they can pick a valid target without worrying about the opaque barrier preventing them from seeing where the spell should be cast.

That's all.

Yeah, sorry, I think the confusion here is due to a misinterpretation of what was meant by "point of origin."

This implies that the spotter could try to cast from outside the ward, which is not the case. The ward is astrally opaque and the spotter cannot send the spell through the ward.

The spotter has to go through the ward, at which point what exactly is the point of Ritual Spellcasting? Once on the inside of the ward he could simply drop all his spirits in to materialize. There's no penalty for that, so why should there be a penalty for having him channel a spell from a itual team?

-Frank

1st quote response:

If the point of origin for the ritual spell is within the ward, which I realize you disagree with, then why would the ward even matter? To say that the ward somehow affects ritual spells is to say it is somehow going through the ward. How is the ward affecting the ritual spell? How is the ritual spell being cast through the ward? The only way I can think of a ward making a ritual test more difficult is if it affected the mana INSIDE the ward. But we know it does not. So, if the mana inside the ward is just as good as the mana outside, why would it hinder a ritual caster? Its the mana that matters, not what is in between, because there is no path the spell takes. Of course, this is bearing in mind that the point of origin is the link, which I believe to make the most sense.

2nd quote response:

If the point of origin is the ritual leader then how does the spell get from point A to point B? The spell would be forming at the ritual caster, correct? If the spell is forming at the ritual caster, how does it get to the link? I think it makes more sense that the ritual leader is remotely manipulating magic at the point of origin, this point of origin being wherever the link is. In my opinion, the point of origin for any spell, is wherever the mana is being manipulated.

According to what some people are arguing the astral void wouldn't impede the ritual spellcasting.

You don't need an astral spotter for ritual spellcasting.

I think that by Synner's argument, as long as the ritualist and the target are in low background areas, the ritual spell will work no matter how bad the background count was in between. The spell does not travel between point A and B, therefore it would work fine.

Then can the spotter and the leader of the ritual team be the same person? And isn't the spotter is part of the ritual team as well. If the point of origin is the ritual team, then the ritual team is inside the ward since the spotter is inside it.

But a ward is not a body of water. It's not a body of anything. Wards are two-dimensional barriers. Things either cross them or they do not cross them. There's no "region", no "volume", it's just a surface.

If you have a material link you don't need a spotter. Everyone else does. People with the powerful assassination discipline of Sympathetic Linking can create links out of whole cloth - but everyone else has to fly coach. Which in this case means getting your spotter to a point where he can assense the target or shutting the hell up.

While synner's comments can certainly be read that way, I don't think that anyone is actually suggesting that the spell is not impacted by whatever the background count is at the target.

The question of whether background counts which are "between" the target and the ritual group is for some reason an open question. But since I was also unaware that Ritual Spellcasting had an upward range limit of 29 kilometers before it was blocked out by the curvature of the Earth - I still think that interpretation is ridiculous.

---

Basically, if you go by the established storylines, ritual sorcery is supposed to be really scary. People managed to carve out countries because Ritual Sorcery was regarded as being the equal of atomic bombs. That's what the whole Treaty of Denver was all about. That's what the nation of Tir na nOg was founded on. The detente of the 6th world is supposed to be "If you use Ritual Sorcery, we'll drop nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons on you; and vice versa"

And yet, every single time anyone actually figures out how to do anything remotely useful with ritual spellcasting, everyone gets their panties in a knot and screams about how the sky is falling. Seriously guys, what the hell? You can just have Gamma Anthrax and put it in canisters and fire it at Seoul with ground-based artillery. It's not even a deal.

Ritual Spellcasting can just be actually useful as a means of killing people and the world won't even notice. If it isn't good at assassinating people it's a completely useless apendage on the system and should be forgotten. Because it damned certain doesn't do anything else well.

-Frank

Can you make margaritas with that metaphor blender?

I don't remember reading anywhere that ritual magic had a range limit, page number?

You know I really don't like Tequila. As far as blended drinks I tend to go for the grasshopper, the mudslide or the daiquirí. But as far as mixed drinks I prefer the cosmo or the oatmeal cookie. I'm a "girl-drink drunk", and I refuse to apologise for it.

Thematically, and specifically it does not have a range limit. However, if it followed a path from the team to the target as has ben repeatedly suggested (even by Peter Taylor), it would incidentally acquire a range limit of 29 kilometers. Beyond that distance, the curvature of the Earth would put a barrier that was impenetrable to magic in the way of your ritual spells. Unless your target was in a very tall building, in which case you'd be able to target him from farther away.

It's a straw-man argument that I am making to openly mock people who don't agree with me. Noone is actually saying that ritual spellcasting has a range limit - it's simply an unintended side effect of claiming that ritual magic has a path, which in turn is a side effect of claiming that wards do jack diddly against ritual magic.

---

Basically what's at issue is that people are arguing from the gut where they feel that wards are supposed to be essentially protective, to keep evil magic away. But really, that's not what they are. That's not what they do. A ward is just a wall. No more, no less. Its big super power is that any time something magical tries to crash through that wall, whether it succeeds or fails, the creator(s) of that ward are alerted instantly of the security risk no matter where they are in the world.

But it's still just a wall. There's a lot of ways to circumnavigate that. You can non-magically walk inside and then pop out all your bound spirits to go a whupping and a whomping on everyone in sight. That doesn't go "through" the ward, that doesn't alert anyone except the suckas you are setting on fire.

And some people are finding that this fact doesn't sit well with them. They are thinking of wards as ponds filled with protection from evil magic or something. There's no rules support for that, but that's what the word "Ward" means to a lot of peoples' guts.

-Frank

So to protect against ritual spellcasting you would just go to a place where there was a high background count then?

So if the target of the ritual spellcasting was in an area with a background count of 10 how would that effect the ritual spellcasting? Would the ritual team all have their magic attribute reduced by 10? Would the drain of the spell be 10 points higher? Or would the target have his magic reduced by 10, bringing his magic down to 0 and eliminating all his counterspelling powers?

And it is scary. Even given that a Ward can protect a person against it, it is still scary. I don't see the need to make it all-powerful.

If you look through the ward section in street magic they aren't described as just walls. They are described multiple times as areas. Read the section titled, "The Shape of a Ward" on page 123 of SM.

Or it would take the path of least resistance, which would mean it would not try to go through the earth, it would not go through random wards straight on the way there, it would even avoid areas of background count, such that there would be a maximum of 2 wards that could interfere (due to the no nesting rule).

The purpose of wards is to prevents cast from one side, going to the other however.

So while the spell does not actually ping across the astral, and you only see it at the casting location and the target location, wards still get in the way, interfering with the link between target and caster, so worst case scenario would be casting ritual magic from inside someone else's ward, to a target inside a warded area.

Yes, this does mean you can protect yourself a bit against ritual magic, it is still a crazily scary weapon. Especially since you cannot nest wards, so the most wards any spell, ever, will face is 2, and the most you can guarantee being between you and your opponent through your own actions is 1, the one you are in.

I don't know. This makes it sound more as if the magic used in Ritual Spellcasting was intelligent, because it purposely avoided all those things, and magic isn't intelligent.

How about the first line in the shape of a ward section. "Though wards are limited by the standard 50 cubic meters..." Cubic meters are a measurement of an area. All the ward shapes are 3 dimensional figures and the entire shape is the ward.

Is there such a thing as a 'deadend' to a Spell? Could you describe such a scenario?

Before there might be a misunderstanding, I do guess that you don't think that the entire volume inside the geometric shape gives protection, right? It's only the outer shape, and wards are astral walls, after all, as written on page 123 right under Wards.

Where it says, "Wards (see p.185, SR4) are the astral equivalent of the oldest form os security: the wall." I would have to say the key word there is equivalent. It doesn't mean that they are astral walls. Under the shape of the ward where they are all 3D shapes it would make you think that the wards are more like rooms than individual walls. So if you had a mage inside the ward casting at something else inside the ward then there wouldn't be protection. But if a mage was outside the ward casting at inside there would be protection. It's only when casting a spell through one of the walls of the ward that you would get protection from the ward. Just like if you were in a solid steel cube and a sammy was trying to shoot at you.

No, because the link connecting the target and the picture must pass across the Ward at some point.