Russia under Stalin and Late WW2 German under Hitler are probably the classic examples of a dystopia. However any Communist country (or totalitarian government like Syria or Iran) typically has somewhere between 5% to 20% of the citizens actively reporting to the secret police what their co-workers, neighbors and family members were saying and doing in private, and the secret police can arbitrarily sweep you off the street and shoot you on the unsubstantiated word of a single informer. So I'd argue they seem pretty dystopian also.

Getting fired because you told your boss to his face that he's an idiot doesn't make it a dystopia. If you could get away with telling you boss to his face that he's an idiot that would be a utopia.

I would argue that a proper dystopia requires two things:

1) A serious constraint of personal liberties
2) A serious want of personal wealth for the average person

If everyone has no personal liberties, but are rich, it really isn't much of a dystopia, since most people can be pretty happy with that (even with Brave New World, where the protagonist is pretty well off, the average person most certainly is not). The thing is, generally #2 follows from #1 (for a complex series of reasons I won't go into here). In that regard, I would argue some countries in our world are entering into, or well embroiled in, #1, but #2 really hasn't come up yet. If the 'war on terror' terrorizes US citizens any more, that could change however.

Not that it really matters...

As was stated before, views of a Dystopia are very subjective. And it's all where you look as well. Take Joe Everyday, working his zombie shift for S-K. He gets up, dresses and bathes, and catches the tube to 104th and Krauser. He sits himself down at cubical 34-D-12 and gets to work on those testing reports from site 25, as management wants some solid numbers to show the higher ups at their lunch meeting. After shooting the breeze a bit, getting the reports filed away, and having a mediocre lunch of beef flavored soy, he hops the train again and comes back to his flat in S-K's residential district, kisses his wife, hugs his kids, and sits down to watch some TV.

That's what happens today. And we're as oblivious to our eroded freedoms and choices as we will be then. We don't think of our lives right now as a Dystopian setting. And I'm sure in 62 years, we still won't. It's just the way things will be. Most of the populace won't know or care and will continue chugging away at their computers, being a good little Yes Man till they can get a meager pension and retirement and try to relax the final days of their life away.

Shadowrunners and a select few people recognize the world as the run down pile of drek it is because we look beyond the happy facades. We as runners have broken the mold. We've told Big Brother 'No', and have put our foot down enough to piss them off. We challenge the authority of the world, which happens to be the corps. The vale is lifted and we see the rotten core that the world has become and all the sheeple that walk around. And then we see the actual Dystopia.

But...maybe I should just shush up. Got to get those TPS reports in, after all.

ah, the life of a salaryman...

Of course, the grey area is subjective, but that's the case with most everything. I don't think we can find a lot of people who live in 1984 or We who don't recognize life sucks.

On the flip side, being a desk jockey is NOT dystopia. It's a question of being human, of being free. Here in the US, I can still buy a gun and I have a constitutional (and generally enforced) right not to be spied on in my home. I have the possibility of social mobility, the freedom to study philosophy or enjoy religion. I might work at a desk job, but that's because I chose to. Beyond role-playing, I'm not living in some fantasy world, the government does not have unwarranted control in my life. I most certainly do not live in a dystopia, even though I face the risk of gang violence, I do have a pretty boring job, I work in a cubicle and am expected to appear on time.

And that's my point. Now, I'm not trying to be "Anarchy, HO!" here, nor am I adjusting my tin foil hat. What I am doing is pointing out the very real and present danger to our individualism we have as a sociaty. More and more, our culture and behaviour is sculpted into the Big Picture. Don't believe me?

Most North Americans have a TV, radio, get the newspaper, and have internet access. We are constantly bombarded by ads, new, and propaganda. That gets the first 50% of USA. Hell, my mother is part of them. She watches Survivor and Big Brother, constanly gets her life information from Oprah, and watches the new like it's fact.

We're told to buy the right products, love to right shows, listen to the right government figureheads. If you don't think that's influential, then you're already lost to the mainstream.

Then there's your job. Everyday, you go to work for 40 hours a week and recieve a paycheck and insurance. Why? Because you can? Did you choose that? Did you make the choice to live in monotony? I sure as hell didn't. Sure, I like my job...but that's because there's nothing better...right? It's because it's the path of least resistance, and that's what gets another 35%. We're forced into the culture that's being set before us. And after a while, we get tired of caring or tired of fighting back. We fold, accept the changes, and get a nice pat on the head for being such a good little sheep.

The other 15%? Well, 10% of them are those in control. And I'm not talking total control. More like various levels of control. From your boss at work to the Star officer that pulled you over for speeding, when you were going 5 under the limit, to the big CEO of a megacorp.

And the last 5%? Those are the ones that won't stop fighting. They're the ones that have found a way out or been able to live their lives free. Maybe not hassle-free...but without authority.

Gosh...I REALLY need to get those TPS reports done....yeah...I'm just gonna have to go ahead and post this...yeah...

I'll send you another copy of that memo, CB.

i don't think that's a reasonable argument, nezumi. the average sarariman in SR wouldn't say he lived in a dystopia, either. he'd point to all the perks and privileges he enjoys--a list which pretty much mirrors the one you just posted.

he would ignore the state of the rest of the world. he'd ignore the fact that half of the planet's population lives in areas of low-level conflict (which is a nice way of saying that men with guns kill and rape unopposed). he'd ignore the fact that his country sucks in thousands of human trafficking victims (which is a nice way of saying "kidnapped girls sold for sex") every year.

honestly, i think part of the reason cyberpunk is becoming less cyberpunk is that the dark future cyberpunk warns us about is no longer really a future. dystopia isn't nearly as cool when you actually live in one. regardless, dystopia is not measured by how the richest, most powerful fraction of the planet lives.

Too true. If this conversation was occuring in a genuine dystopia, for example China, we'd all be rounded up and spend the rest of our days manufacturing lead tainted toys and chemical tainted food in prison factories for export. There is a difference between poor government policy and genuine totalinarianism.

about dystopia, isnt the idea that your life has no value? as in, your not a person but a cog in a larger machine?

as in, unless your one of the leaders of a corp, or a corp division, your life could end today and nobody would even blink except hire yet another person to fill your place?

but then im not sure cyberpunk must be dystopic. maybe more correct would be overwhelming? as in, you have your little niche that your good at, but the rest is so out of touch that you have no clue how it works, just that it does. and if it breaks down, you know who to talk to to maybe get it working again, or where to get hold of a replacement.

as in, tech have become the new god. and if your unable to work with the tech, or cant afford it, your nobody.

I read the above link. Nowhere did I see that the people in question were taken because they questioned the government, had the wrong names or were of the wrong color. At least one admitted his guilt on Al Jazeera. As far as I can tell, Amnesty was upset because those people were taken in contradiction to various home countries' extradition laws, and because the US has the death penalty, and because of concerns over Guantanamo. But maybe I'm just dense, and did'nt catch the references.

Tippy, if your friend's version of the events in question is accurate, he does indeed have a legitimate gripe. Anyone remember an airline incident about...what...a month ago? A plane full of passengers was kept cooped up in the plane on the runway for something like 12 hours, then taken off and stripp searched. Glad I was'nt on that flight.

A Shadowrun salaryman can buy a gun, but he knows the corp can claim it at its leisure, and can probably turn it off remotely.

it's hard to call medieval Europe a dystopia because, from our perspective, the rich elite weren't all that much better off than the serfs.



Why turn the gun off ??
Just make it unable to fire when aimed at someone from company 'x' [think RoboCop].


Using your definition, a peasant would call medieval Europe a dystopia..
..And the Rich were much better off - they had proper food, clothing and housing !!


Oops - I seem to have removed the quotey bits !!

Two words: Guildford four. And that was in the seventies. But by all means, we must be vigilant against abuses.

Saying modern society is dystopic seems a bit overboard. Sure the US government is crazy, but I'm pretty sure that is because the US is so big that it doesn't have the same pressure to evolve to an optimal state that somewhere like Germany does.

But anyway, lets look at countries like germany, france and new zealand.

They have fair and open government systems (well, I think!) there is a degree of social mobility, and there is a balance between government control and private sector independence.

Shadowrunverse is a dystopia though because it has significantly reduced social mobility -> if you are a SINless from an urban combat zone it is almost impossible to raise yourself above that, the governmental systems are weak, corrupt and ineffective OR an oppressive dictatorship, and the balance between private and oublic sector is wildly skewed one way.

I was going to add something, but after Ronin's... damn.

I mean... just... damn.

Game set, match.

Anybody who thinks that the modern US is more dystopic than medieval Europe really needs to study their history more and take fewer drugs. This is a pure figment political paranoia. I know America hating is all the fad these days, but get a grip.

Seconded, Negalith.

If I may add a little something to Negalith's comment...whatever the faults of the western world may be, the positives far outweigh the negatives. And no matter what anyone may say, the rest of the globe agrees, because the flow of humanity is virtually all one way; the world has "voted with it's feet", as it were. Nobody uproots their family and moves them to Rwanda for a better life; nobody flees to Iran to escape religious persecution (except perhaps a Shia escaping from a Sunni nation); and nobody moves to China to live under a government which is not overly meddlesome. Critiscise, yes; but do not forget who the true villains are.

... Or working in an office from 9-5

You should not forget that you and me, and probably most of the readers and posters in this forum are far away from the social bottom line. (even though we are far from the top)
Have a look on how crap life is for an 'illegal' human today. And I am not talking about China or some African nation, I am talking about the US and Europe.
The problem for us is not, that we don't have the options to do differently, but that we are satisfied with living our 'save' and 'secure' life.
We're pretty much offtopic though I'd say:)

how about: sr = feudal japan, with the corps the clans and the runners the ninja?