Full Version: Shadowrun not cyberpunk anymore
Admin post: Get this thread back on topic or it will be closed.
| QUOTE (Adam) |
| Admin post: Get this thread back on topic or it will be closed. |
I, for one, welcome our new Canuck overlords!
May I point you to these resources
What is Cyberpunk
The Classic Rocker
Before we can debate whether Shadowrun isn't Cyberpunk anymore, we first have to agree that it was cyberpunk to begin with. As soon as they introduced the Awakening, the entire Shadowrun line left the genre of cyberpunk and entered a hybrid state for me. There are elements of cyberpunk still present, but I find that as the world turns and technology catches up to what we are seeing in SR, it is becoming harder for the players to fully embrace dystopia. It can be done, but not a lot of people want to spend their days knowing that nothing they do will ever matter. As soon as GMs give the PCs a chance to change the world, elevate their own personal position without selling out, etc a piece of the grit is gone.
Let's use Blade Runner, a classic Cyberpunk icon, as an example. Deckard has earned a name for himself, he's damn near the best at retiring replicants--the fact that he's the best and retired doesn't mean shit when the cops decide that he has to do some work for them. The cops have the power and even though Deckard is what we would consider a Prime Runner, he knows that he could be crushed with almost no effort.
As soon as a character is invested with more importance than a bag of flesh that walks and talks, you begin to stray from the harsh dystopian world of cyberpunk.
What is Cyberpunk
The Classic Rocker
Before we can debate whether Shadowrun isn't Cyberpunk anymore, we first have to agree that it was cyberpunk to begin with. As soon as they introduced the Awakening, the entire Shadowrun line left the genre of cyberpunk and entered a hybrid state for me. There are elements of cyberpunk still present, but I find that as the world turns and technology catches up to what we are seeing in SR, it is becoming harder for the players to fully embrace dystopia. It can be done, but not a lot of people want to spend their days knowing that nothing they do will ever matter. As soon as GMs give the PCs a chance to change the world, elevate their own personal position without selling out, etc a piece of the grit is gone.
Let's use Blade Runner, a classic Cyberpunk icon, as an example. Deckard has earned a name for himself, he's damn near the best at retiring replicants--the fact that he's the best and retired doesn't mean shit when the cops decide that he has to do some work for them. The cops have the power and even though Deckard is what we would consider a Prime Runner, he knows that he could be crushed with almost no effort.
As soon as a character is invested with more importance than a bag of flesh that walks and talks, you begin to stray from the harsh dystopian world of cyberpunk.
Ah. So magic comes and goes every 5,000 years, and glitter and glam also fluctuate, and you're calling for a Glitterglam Spike in the 4th Edition setting?
In which case, perhaps more characters need avatars and icons copied from World of Warcraft; roll Agility plus Glam skill to properly execute your icon's funky dance for a Look-At-Me bonus.
I'll take the minmaxed build of an Elven Shaman with a huge dice pool in the Entertain spell.
In which case, perhaps more characters need avatars and icons copied from World of Warcraft; roll Agility plus Glam skill to properly execute your icon's funky dance for a Look-At-Me bonus.
I'll take the minmaxed build of an Elven Shaman with a huge dice pool in the Entertain spell.
| QUOTE (Riley37) |
| Ah. So magic comes and goes every 5,000 years, and glitter and glam also fluctuate, and you're calling for a Glitterglam Spike in the 4th Edition setting? |
If that comment was directed at me, no I don't want a glitterglam spike in SR4. The links provided were referring to earlier conversations that touched on similar topics.
| QUOTE (D Minor @ Sep 22 2007, 01:07 PM) |
| Its not. Over the last couple of Decades We Canadians have been infiltrtating American popular cultre. I.e Alex Trebeck, M.J. Fox, Tom green. Phase 2 Sell molsen to Coors. Phase 3 Create a Strong Dollar. For too long we have been a defacto collection of states with no representaion. |
I saw this article and just had to add post one more thing about the state of the world changing.
Less than a week after Canada's dollar exceeded the U.S. dollar, Iran slams Canada for massive human right violations. If anything shows that Canada has taken the number 1 slot, it's Iran blaming them for everything they used to blame on the U.S.
With great power comes great blame! Congrats Canada!
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/sto...p-4651763c.html
<tries to stuff a few bones back in the closet>
I have no idea what ur takin aboot
I have no idea what ur takin aboot
Shadowrun has never completely embraced distopia, which makes it a stronger game in my opinion. The setting has dark elements, sure, and the PCs have to deal with moral ambiguity and hard choices.
But a game where nothing that you do matters is flat-out lame. The only way to enforce such an unrealistic trope is by GM fiat and heavy railroading, and that's likelier to lead to player apathy than it is to lead to great roleplaying.
Shadowrun has distopian elements, but there is still the small chance that you could survive your brutal career and retire to someplace with a real grass lawn, non-soy food some of the time, and days where the air quality is so good that you don't even have to wear your breath filter mask.
But a game where nothing that you do matters is flat-out lame. The only way to enforce such an unrealistic trope is by GM fiat and heavy railroading, and that's likelier to lead to player apathy than it is to lead to great roleplaying.
Shadowrun has distopian elements, but there is still the small chance that you could survive your brutal career and retire to someplace with a real grass lawn, non-soy food some of the time, and days where the air quality is so good that you don't even have to wear your breath filter mask.
Glyph--You are exactly correct. I wouldn't want to play or run games where we were in a complete dystopia. That said, I think the direct presence of some of the greats in PC action (Harlequin, Harlequin's Back, SotF, even First Run) weakens the dystopian elements more than is necessary.
You scenario you described I think is a best case scenario for a lot of shadowrunners, or should be. As soon as we start having PCs rub elbows with NPCs whose stats are "as plot dictates" and able to forge relationships, the elements of dystopia are weakened enough that they seem like flat window dressing. SR4 has thus far steered clear of this, and I am happy with the direction it is headed.
I think a lot of the grit and run-down feeling depends on the GM and players to mutually create. RedJack's Down in the Puyallups is a great example of runners who are scraping by and happy to make it to each new sunrise--yes, there are elements where they can make a difference on an individual level, but they aren't going to determine which of the Great Dragons is outed and who sits on the Council of Princes.
High powered campaigns that deal with broad strokes of global policy, can be fun, but I think they are alternate campaigns in the same world and step outside the cyberpunk model.
You scenario you described I think is a best case scenario for a lot of shadowrunners, or should be. As soon as we start having PCs rub elbows with NPCs whose stats are "as plot dictates" and able to forge relationships, the elements of dystopia are weakened enough that they seem like flat window dressing. SR4 has thus far steered clear of this, and I am happy with the direction it is headed.
I think a lot of the grit and run-down feeling depends on the GM and players to mutually create. RedJack's Down in the Puyallups is a great example of runners who are scraping by and happy to make it to each new sunrise--yes, there are elements where they can make a difference on an individual level, but they aren't going to determine which of the Great Dragons is outed and who sits on the Council of Princes.
High powered campaigns that deal with broad strokes of global policy, can be fun, but I think they are alternate campaigns in the same world and step outside the cyberpunk model.
I'm not fond of the IE's myself - I am of the opinion that everything should be statted, and that beings such as Harlequin should survive by being cunning and working a lot of things from behind the scenes, not by being ludicrously overpowered anime-style villains who no-sell AV missiles. I also think that if a lowly street thug has a chance, however remote, to take down a runner, then that same runner should have a chance, however remote, to take down one of the big players.
I think that even high-powered runners shouldn't be affecting the metaplot as much as they do in some of the adventures. The contrivances needed to put them in the right place at the right time are almost as bad as the ones needed to run a deliberately distopian campaign. At best, they should be pawns of one major player, used to foil one of the plans of another power player.
Low-powered campaigns are as much of an "alternate" campaign as the world-shaking ones, but are less likely to veer off into cartoon territory. Plus, street-level campaigns don't have to be distopian ones. Sure, you won't be overthrowing Aztechnology or killing Ghostwalker, but maybe you'll run run those BTL dealers out of town, or help MOM set up an emergency clinic for the SINless, or take down the ghoul serial killer that Lone Star doesn't care about since he stays in the Barrens.
I have enjoyed low-powered campaigns - I only dislike it when the GM contrives to perpetually keep the characters in the Barrens. At some point, they should be able to improve their circumstances and/or become neophyte "real" runners.
I think that even high-powered runners shouldn't be affecting the metaplot as much as they do in some of the adventures. The contrivances needed to put them in the right place at the right time are almost as bad as the ones needed to run a deliberately distopian campaign. At best, they should be pawns of one major player, used to foil one of the plans of another power player.
Low-powered campaigns are as much of an "alternate" campaign as the world-shaking ones, but are less likely to veer off into cartoon territory. Plus, street-level campaigns don't have to be distopian ones. Sure, you won't be overthrowing Aztechnology or killing Ghostwalker, but maybe you'll run run those BTL dealers out of town, or help MOM set up an emergency clinic for the SINless, or take down the ghoul serial killer that Lone Star doesn't care about since he stays in the Barrens.
I have enjoyed low-powered campaigns - I only dislike it when the GM contrives to perpetually keep the characters in the Barrens. At some point, they should be able to improve their circumstances and/or become neophyte "real" runners.
Call me a heathen, but give me the RIFTS world setting with Shadow run style rule sets and I’d be in heaven 
….. I just find the Shadowrun world to be thrown together nonsensically. How many Native American nations covering how much land mass? Ghost Dance or not, Native Americans make up less than 1% of the US population. OK, they had magic… and most of their magicians died in the Ghost Dance. Sorry.. just one of the many Shadowrun concepts that seems to defy any kind of reason under examination. I think their Politically Correct angst and white guilt just got the better of the writers.
In the past, Cyber Punk type games were forward thinking with the technology they include. All kind of cool tech that showed vision and foresight. Shadowrun 4E is playing genre catch up, with modern day revolutions like wireless networking and RFID showing up en masse giving the distinct impression that the writers of today are far less futuristic visionary and far more lazy and impressionable.
….. I just find the Shadowrun world to be thrown together nonsensically. How many Native American nations covering how much land mass? Ghost Dance or not, Native Americans make up less than 1% of the US population. OK, they had magic… and most of their magicians died in the Ghost Dance. Sorry.. just one of the many Shadowrun concepts that seems to defy any kind of reason under examination. I think their Politically Correct angst and white guilt just got the better of the writers. In the past, Cyber Punk type games were forward thinking with the technology they include. All kind of cool tech that showed vision and foresight. Shadowrun 4E is playing genre catch up, with modern day revolutions like wireless networking and RFID showing up en masse giving the distinct impression that the writers of today are far less futuristic visionary and far more lazy and impressionable.
My understanding was that the majority of the deaths whre not awakened as it was a blood magic ritual.
Ironically the punk element of cyber punk, as in the ideal/concept, is the self empowerment to make a difference against the maledictions of the over bearing society and corporate culture.
Hence runners hooding and fighting back through their counter culture life styles. Asserting their individuality against the clamour of degradation and pressure to conform. The iconic snap shot of this is the mohawk.
To often the runners become company men in waiting rather than criminal cultural rebels against an unfair system.
I would agree the integration of the fantasy element strengthen SR, as does the bleak but not totally negative game world. There are forces for good and occasionally the runners can fight on the side of the angles instead of the villianous mega's/generic bad guys.
The re-aspecting of SR on to the more street level game, I believe, is a long over due change of tack from the fiction and released adventures that lead to the global plot. Simply most runners don't change the entire world every time. They are too small time. But they can change some aspects of their corner of the world.
Unlike CP2020 there is more dev encouragement to be something other than a pure mercenary sociopath.
With personality comes style and because we roleplay for fun, looking cool.
Hence runners hooding and fighting back through their counter culture life styles. Asserting their individuality against the clamour of degradation and pressure to conform. The iconic snap shot of this is the mohawk.
To often the runners become company men in waiting rather than criminal cultural rebels against an unfair system.
I would agree the integration of the fantasy element strengthen SR, as does the bleak but not totally negative game world. There are forces for good and occasionally the runners can fight on the side of the angles instead of the villianous mega's/generic bad guys.
The re-aspecting of SR on to the more street level game, I believe, is a long over due change of tack from the fiction and released adventures that lead to the global plot. Simply most runners don't change the entire world every time. They are too small time. But they can change some aspects of their corner of the world.
Unlike CP2020 there is more dev encouragement to be something other than a pure mercenary sociopath.
With personality comes style and because we roleplay for fun, looking cool.
And idiocy. Don't discount idiocy and superficial research. Like where did the Navajo go? There are vastly more Navajo (250,000) than Utes (10,000).
Yeah I thought that was weird too considering the Navajo have more people, more money, better management (and better organized crime). You'd think the Navajo nation would be a major player in 2070.
At least it's better than Gibson's vision of a Jamaican nation in orbit...talk about your pipe-fueled dreams.
At least it's better than Gibson's vision of a Jamaican nation in orbit...talk about your pipe-fueled dreams.
The true and real intention of Shadowrun is actually mysterious and concealed. However, if you spend enough time inhaling the misty swirling temporal haze of the 80s (found in hair spray cans) you will realize that Lionel Richie was the keeper of the secret intention of Shadowrun. I'm copying from an old post of mine...
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I just realized that "Running With The Night" by Lionel Richie is in fact about Shadowrun. This means that you can cue it as a musical interlude during your shadowrun games. This will bring the power of the 80s into the game, which means you'll need to deploy ninjas and elves with mullets. Lyrics from http://www.lyricscafe.com/r/richie_lionel/lr011.htm I have bolded the parts that pertain to Shadowrun; my comments are in italics.
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Furthermore, SR1 knew the role of 80s guitar riffing, even if subsequent editions were forced to hide this truth because it was too powerful. I refer you to: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...c=6597&st=0&hl=
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To answer the thread: Let me check my copy of Shadowbeat that's actually in good condition. (As compared to every other SB book I've seen that tend to always be coming apart at the seams.) There are a bunch of optional rules and such, but I won't go into that...
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I've come up with a few electric guitar based physad powers for use with SR3. Because I don't have the SR4 rulebooks. These powers require that the physad have an electric guitar, a battery to power it, and a large speaker on him to produce the sounds. Of course, the guitar and accessories must work and be capable of producing complex music. The GM must be sure to punish the physad with lots of encumberance and make him fall down with a clatter as much as possible. Riff of the 80s (2) The physad spends the entire combat turn sacrificing all actions and instead riffing a riff about elves with pistols and leather jackets and mullets, Japanese maidens in pressed corporate suits with tantos, and Dolph Lundgren and Chuck Norris astride jet black (Wyld) Stallions leading a horde of Midwestern auto workers. At the end of the turn he rolls his electric guitar musical skill against a TN of 11 or a TN of 10 if he bought the highest quality guitar from the SR1 equipment lists. Keep track of the successes. Each time the physad succeeds at getting 2 successes during a single combat he is involved in (successes don't carry over from one combat to another) he gets a bonus karma point for being totally sweet. Thus if he gets 4 successes in one combat, he gains 2 karma points. This is designed to make the physad do nothing useful during combat to try and grub for karma and undermine the rest of the party by broadcasting their location to the amusement of the GM. It also encourages the physad to undermine himself by wasting precious power points on Improved Ability: Electric Guitar. The best part is that even though the player knows this because he read it right here he still wants to take it for the possibility of more karma. Note that this power is especially sweet for melee-specalized ninjas because in long-range situations where they aren't useful they can spend the entire combat riffing on their guitar and flipping out. Song of the Support Weapon (2 points per weapon category; LMG, MMG, and HMG.) While reading this power description, I recommend that you have Cyndi Lauper's "Shebop" playing in the background. This is because a M60 MMG is very much like female sexual response, which is a long plateau compared to spikey male sexual response. Just change the barrel every thousand rounds (because you'll need more than one male) and keep rubbing the trigger. Hyzmarca, in his infinite military wisdom, has oft stated that the sublime celestial glory of operating a LMG to 80s pop would be sufficient to propel the questing pilgrim to enlightenment. The physad with this power is steeped in the wisdom of the 80s and small arms and, like a Bodhisattva, has the power to convey this enlightenment upon his teammates, at least while his soul-elevating music reaches out to touch the heart and cast light upon the nuggets left over from eating KFC back in the 80s contained therein. The physad forefits all his actions in a given combat turn, electing instead to spend that combat turn playing his guitar. All teammates who can hear him and who are operating the appropriate category of weapon (LMG, MMG, or HMG, depending on which power(s) the physad purchased) gets the following bonus: 1.) He or she is treated as though equipped with a cyberwear smartlink and a smartlinked machine gun for the purpose of hitting the enemy and gun operation (changing fire modes, etc.), but not for the purpose of essence or magic reduction. 2.) The rounds flying out of the machine gun shine with the glowing spirit of the 80s; threat the rounds as having +2 Power, and also apply a -1 TN tracer fire bonus for every 3rd round discharged, which stacks with the above smartlink bonus because of the nature of the magic of the 80s. Song of the Launch Weapon (2 points per weapon category; grenade launcher, mortar, and rocket launcher) The theme song for this power is Cyndi Lauper's "Girls Just Want To Have Fun", since white phosphorous is symbolic of a clingy and self-centered girlfriend. This power works in exactly the same way as "Song of the Support Weapon", but the bonuses are as follows: 1.) Treat the weapon user as though equipped with a cyberwear smartlink and a smartlinked, rangefinder-equipped support weapon for the purpose of hitting the enemy and weapon operation, but not for the purpose of essence or magic reduction. 2.) Calculate the damage caused by the weapons as normal. However, in addition, treat any targets who are successfully hit by the weapon (either by direct hit or by the blast) as though they were covered by white phosphorous, as per a direct hit by a white phosphorous grenade. This is the sizzling magic of the 80s clinging to them and burning with the fury of a thousand cans of hairspray. It is recommended that the GM play "Girls Just Want To Have Fun" in the background while he or she describes the willie pete'd victims running around screaming. |
Next, note the high prevalence of ninjas in Shadowrun games:http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?&act=Msg&CODE=01
Following logically from this, I refer you to a post I've made which indicates the distilled evidence-based essence of Shadowrun: teabagging ninja.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...topic=12006&hl=
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These are physad powers that can be used to physad ninjas who are actually 80s anime characters complete with painfully short kimonos and loincloths. It's my tangential answer to the wall climbing thread. Crotch-flashing backflip Cost: 1 A convention of 80s ninja anime and film was that backflipping was this uniform infallible method of evasion. This is probably because flashing your loincloth teabag repeatedly at your opponent really messed up his aim. With a complex action the adept may begin backflipping and flashing his teabag; note that this power only works if you have a loincloth teabag to flash. The backflipping lasts until the adept's next action, although it may be cancelled with a free action. While backflipping the adept gains a -2TN bonus to any dodge tests. If the adept is attacked in melee combat while backflipping he may not counter attack because he's flipping but rather must use Full Defense. A -2TN bonus applies to the Full Defense dodge test. Using the backflipping move forces you to move your running speed backwards. Use caution with this move if you just swung in though a skyscraper window. 80s anime ninja angst Cost: 1 Another convention of 80s ninja anime was that short kimono ninjas needed to have angst regarding their relationships with their usually absent fathers. This was probably based on how a lot of Japanese kids' dads would have spent a lot of time at work and not a lot of time at home, because in SR there's always room for psychoanalysis. Regardless, this power lets the adept tell someone about their angst in such a melodramatic, hackneyed, and wussy manner that the listener ends up zoning out most of what the adept says. After using this power for 10 minutes on someone that person recieves a +2 TN penalty to any Negotiation related tests that he or she must make against the adept. "Blah blah blah blah angst angst blah blah blah blah father blah can I have the cyberskull?" "Yeah yeah yeah yeah uh huh uh huh uh huh sure..." Power teabag Cost: 1 By pressing his or her loincloth against someone who is unable to resist the adept automatically inflicts a D wound on the victim regardless of toughness, pain dampeners, magic, or whatever. This is useful support for someone who Entangles or perhaps for an enveloping elemental. (Although I'd caution anyone against pressing their groin through a fire elemental.) Essence-draining teabag Cost: 3 By pressing his or her loincloth against someone who is unable to resist for 10 minutes the adept is able to drain 1 point of essence from the victim and heal 10 boxes of physical damage to him or herself. In the case of someone with less than one point of essence the process still takes 10 minutes and 1 box is healed per 0.1 point of essence. Hemoptysis Cost: 1 In anime it's important to cough up blood to show how bad you're hurt before walking off the injury and glibly returning to kick ass. If the adept has at least a S wound during a combat he or she may waste a complex action coughing up blood. Each full combat turn wasted in combat where the adept avoids helping the party and instead just wastes time coughing up blood during each action in that turn will give the adept a bonus karma point. "Don't heal me. This wound looks real good." Teabag transformation Cost: .25 This power treats us to a time dilated nude transformation sequence where whatever the adept was wearing before is ripped away and ceases to exist and is replaced with a ratty 17th century short kimono complete with a particularly rancid loincloth that has never seen detergent. The entire process requires only a free action. For game balance issues this won't let you automatically escape from restraints. The purpose of this power is to 1.) ensure that an adept with teabag-specific powers will always be able to have access to those powers and 2.) make forgetful players destroy their FFBA and layered armor jacket. Ninja Gaiden 1 wall clinging Cost: 1 In response to the wall clinging thread I've written this power. The adept may leap onto a wall and magically cling there but may not actually move around on the wall. Moving about on the all requires a normal Athletics check to represent spin jumping off the wall and trying to veer back onto it so as to land at a slightly higher height. This is probably best used in conjunction with Great Leap so you can simply jump between two walls to climb faster. Only one-handed weapons may be used when this power is engaged. Katanas may always be used when this power is engaged. Ninja Gaiden II wall clinging Cost: 2 This is an improved version of the above power. Firstly, it lets you cling to ceilings too, which is super innovative. Secondly, it lets you climb about on walls or ceilings, although to climb on ceilings you just let your legs dangle down and cling with only your hands. Moving about on walls or ceilings is "automatically" successful with this power. Movement is at 1/2 the character's normal walking rate. Only one-handed weapons may be used when this power is engaged. Katanas may always be used when this power is engaged. |
Illustration: http://issho.net/q/hiddenfortress.jpg
Note also the inextriability of ninjas from the 80s: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...wtopic=7007&hl=
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Sho Kosugi grew up in Japan, heir to the Kosugi ninja clan. Every day in his shibumi-filled ninja clan's palatial garden, he would scream things in Japanese and flip out in order to perfectly learn a thousand years of combat secrets. However, the Kosugi ninja clan, being an old clan brimming with action movie style history, had accumulated many ninja enemies over the generation. Japanese people never forget, see. So if you piss off the wrong ninja clan a thousand years ago, they're still coming after you. This is perfectly true and not a sterotype that I got from watching ninja movies while completely ignoring everything I know about real Japanese people. So one day a coalition of rival ninjas sent by Ashida Kim and Maasaki Hatsumi stormed the palatial garden and went around massacring Sho Kosugi's entire family. At the time Sho Kosugi was talking with his UCASian friend, Braiden, about opening a Japanese art gallery in Seattle in order to make a lot of money and get away from bloody ninja clan conflicts. Sho Kosugi had been saying something about how he couldn't leave his clan's palace because both his father and grandfather had been killed fighting on it, but he got cut short because he had to flip out and kill all the ninja assassins. Braiden pulled out a 1911 and shot two. Anyway, when the dust cleared Sho's entire family had been killed, except for his elderly mother and one of his two sons. He was particularly choked up because his wife who he liked a lot was killed. Her name was, uh, Masako. Yeah, that's it. That's a pretty high class sounding name. Anyway, in the wrenching emotion of the moment, Sho Kosugi decided to sell his palace and move to UCAS. His elderly mother, though, brimming with Asiatic wisdom, warned him, "You cannot escape your karma, my son." She also warned him about land wars in Asia. Fast forward a few years. Sho Kosugi's surviving infant son is now a bratty 8 year old with a baseball cap cum miniature martial arts powerhouse. Sho Kosugi, full of remorse over the death of his wife, renounced violence, and sealed his sword shut with a paper Shinto ward. His mother kept warning him about karma, though, so he had been teaching his son ninjutsu, although he always prefaced it with some bullcrap about, "We are not ninja; we are not samurai. We practice to keep in touch with our traditions." Of course, Braiden, the white guy, turned out to be an evil ninja because he lived in Japan for 20 years. It makes perfect sense. I mean, remember Bill Murray in "Lost In Translation"? Had he been trapped in Japan for 20 years, he probably would have become an insane and evil ninja too. Furthermore, Braiden was actually a *koga* ninja, which is what Ashida Kim claims to be, so Braiden must be a disciple of Ashida Kim. Either that or he is Ashida Kim. Hmm.... Yeah, so, anyway, Braiden was actually trying to import heroin inside of delicate Japanese porcelain dolls that were on exhibit in Sho Kosugi's gallery. However, Braiden got stiffed by the mafia, so he put on a cheap-looking silver mask and extracted ninja vengance upon the mafia. In retaliation, the mafia stole the dolls, after managing to escape Sho Kosugi following a brutal ninja battle. In the confusion, Braiden, still dressed as the ninja, killed Sho Kosugi's mother, but Sho Kosugi's son, Ken, saw him unmasked. So Braiden had to abduct Ken using an elaborate plot involving a blond woman, hypnosis, and beefy Asian goons. To make a long story short, Sho Kosugi found out and killed Braiden in a brutal ninja duel to the death in a shopping mall at Christmas time. Flashy magical ninja violence erupting in a shopping mall at christmas time, so all the news showed up and filmed a masked and ninja suited Sho Kosugi dealing exploding slicey death left and right to Braiden's hoards of koga ninja. Black-garbed heads were flying everywhere. Shuriken mysteriously hit anyone who tried to use a gun and killed them instantly. There was much flipping out off of balconies into the melee in the food court. Soon there was an inch of arterial blood on the ground floor of the mall as slain ninjas were draped over every overhanging surface. After a brutal struggle, Sho Kosugi finally killed Braiden, slicing his cheap-looking mask open. After a high profile event like this, Sho Kosugi had no choice but to escape into the night with his son, running over phone lines, and setting himself up in the shadows. Which he was able to do in spite of culture differences because he was a master of ninja psychology. Naturally, though, after the bloodbath at the mall at christmas time, everyone was after this mysterious masked ninja man. Luckily, there was so much irrelevant blood, hair, and fabric splattered all over the mall that the refined forensic and ritual magic techniques of Lone Star were useless. However, an elderly Yakuza oyabun named Tomo Sato, using byzantine mazes of asiatic protocl, was able to get the attention and audience of Sho Kosugi. According to the SR2 sourcebook, old-fashioned Yakuza oyabuns are all honorable and refined, whereas the younger ones are all brash and brutal. The old fashioned ones dislike the young ones for this reason. You are not allowed to dispute this because SR2 made it CANON! CANON, DAMN IT! Anyway, the old fashioned Yakuza oyabun figured that if he had a super ninja in his employ that would be his leg up on the other oyabuns in Seattle. So he took Sho Kosugi as his retainer, and in exchange promised to keep Sho Kosugi's son safe. Anyway, this relationship continued for a number of years. Sho Kosugi's son is now a rebellious teenager. Sho Kosugi still has the oddly-tasteless-but-lets-not-say-anything medallion bearing his family crest that he took from his dead mother that was featured in the Sho Kosugi film Revenge of the Ninja. And he pretty much hangs out in a cool Japanese-style house that erupted out of an 80s movie and does missions for the oyabun. Sho Kosugi specific plot hooks for the GM: rebellious son (who is listed only as a level 1 contact due to strained nature of relationship), mission for the oyabun Character Sheet Follows: Sho Kosugi Black Hair, Dark Eyes, 5'9" Priorities: Attributes A Magic B Skills C Resources D Race E Attributes: (30) Body 6 Strength 6 Quickness 6 Intelligence 5 Willpower 5 Charisma 2 Reaction 5 (9) Initiative 5 + 1d6 (9 + 3d6) Combat Pool 8 Karma Pool 1 Total Karma 0 Active Skills: (34) Edged Weapons 6 (10) Unarmed Combat 4 Thrown Weapons 6 Whips/Flails 4 Athletics 6 Stealth 6 Etiquette (Japanese traditional) 1 (3) Physad Powers: Improved Reflexes II Improved Ability: Edged Weapons + 4 Missile Parry Knowledge Skills: (25) Byzantine Maze of Traditional Japanese Protocol 4 Ninja Lore (Ninja Psychological Theory) 4 (6) Classical Japanese Artwork 4 Buddhism (zen-based martial philosophy) 3 (5) Shinto 2 Yakuza (seattle yakuza) 1 (3) Japanese Classical Calligraphy 4 Language Skills: (7) Japanese 5 English 2 Resources: 20,000 Nuyen Level 2 Contact (10,000) Wakazashi (treat as Long Cougar Fineblade Knife, STR + 1 M) 1,500 Katana (STR + 3 M, Reach 1) 1,000 Kusarigama (conc. 8, reach 2, STR + 1 M, ensares pg. 276 SR3) 200 Mariki-gusari (conc 10, reach 2, STR + 2 L stun, ensares) 150 Nunchaku (conc 7, reach 1, STR + 1 M stun) 100 Three-section staff (conc 4, reach 2, STR + 2 M stun) 200 Armored Ninja Suit (treat as Camo Full Suit, 5/3) 1,200 20 Ninja Smoke Bombs (treat as Smoke Grenade, conc 6) 600 50 Shuriken (conc  1,500200 Caltrops (conc 1000Grapple Gun (conc 7) 450 200 meters of grapple line 100 1 mo. custom lifestyle 1,200 20 Ninja Flashbangs (treat as Flash grenade, pg. 40 CC) Contacts: Ken Kosugi (1) Yakuza Traditional Weaponsmith (1) Yakuza Oyabun (2) Custom Lifestyle Information Follows: If you've ever watched 1980s martial arts films you would notice that in some cases they feature opulent Japanese style houses belonging to important characters. For example, in "Showdown in Little Tokyo" Dolp Lundgren's character maintains a Japanese style hut filled with martial arts weapons as his hideout, and in "The Karate Kid" Mr. Miyagi also lives in very distinct Japanese style house. These houses were always extremely amusing for me, being half Japanese, because if someone were to try and construct a similar house in real life it would be extremely expensive. For example, a set of handcrafted Japanese tansu, the drawer set that Japanese families keep their valuables in, not only would cost thousands of dollars, and be painfully expensive to have imported, and subsequently would actually crack and break from the inside if you could not maintain a humidity level around them comparable to the humidity in Japan. Similarly, a set of simple and elegant tea bowls designed by a famous craftsman could easily cost hundreds of dollars apiece. For this reason, whenever my family and I would see the idyllic Japanese hut inhabited by Mr. Miyagi, we'd burst out laughing and go on and on about how outrageously expensive his place would be. Since Sho Kosugi is essentially a 1980s ninja movie character, it is only fitting that he have one of these outrageously awe-inspiring Japanese huts filled with extremely tasteful yet expensive furniture and artwork tucked away in the woods somewhere hidden away from Seattle itself. The custom lifestyle detailed below attempts to emulate as best as possible Mr. Miyagi's house and the hideout from "Showdown in Little Tokyo". Custom Lifestyle: Cinematic 80s Japanese House Area: Squatter Equivalent (woods significantly removed from Seattle), 1 point Comforts: Low (spotty water and electricty due to location, eats mostly pickles and rice), 2 points Entertainment: Street (Nothing electronic, really...painting calligraphy?) 0 points Furnishings: High (awe inspiring hand crafted Japanese art) 4 points Security: Low (stupid ninja booby traps, rating 3) 2 points Space: Middle (smallish hut/house with Zen rock garden out in the woods) 3 points Basic Cost: 1,000 nuyen a month Lifestyle Edges and Flaws: Defensive Setup (always has partial cover and superior position in the home), +.10 Inconspicuous Housing (middle of the damn woods!, +1 TN penalty to find info about Sho), +.10 Quiet Neighborhood (see above; crime uncommon) +.15 Terrific View (see above; view is of surrounding forest) +.05 Cursed Amenities (remote off the grid utilities very unreliable) -.1 Middle of Nowhere (All travel to and from home is doubled)-0.05 No Hazard Alarm -0.05 Net % adjustment: +20% Final Lifestyle Cost: 1,200 nuyen a month |
I personally feel that when a campaign gets epic level it becomes less interesting. In many cases the player character(s)'s impact on global events and great entities (great dragons, dieties, whole corporations) never seems to be as convincingly done as the low-powered stuff. I think it's easier to complete the mission objectives and believe that we unseated the local gang leader than we complete the mission objectives and suddenly Renraku is hemorraghing market share and they lose the lead in New Tech X for the next decade because we blew up their secret uber research lab where two dragons and an immortal elf had a bunk bed, or indeed that Thanatos loses most of his worshippers and becomes an irrelevant immortal for the next 1000 years because our level 36 characters went into his level 36 dungeon and held down his avatar while making him hit himself with his own arms and asking him why he's hitting himself. I typically feel dissatisfied with epic level storylines because it never feels like cause and effect is articulated and thought through to a convincing degree. I think that storyline events are typically a lot easier to justify or explain or even thoroughly and realistically evaluate when they're more on the everyday level.
So, what does this all mean? Shadowrun is about Midwestern autoworkers being helplessly crushed by Japanacorp international financial power. They demand that you buy American autos in the interests of protectionism but then ninjas with electric guitars fall from the ceiling, riffing as they fall. While still riffing, each ninja actually does a split in mid air and slams his crotch onto an auto worker's nose. The auto worker is knocked backwards and the ninja continues on his trajectory so that he lands teabag-first on the auto worker's face so that he can continue riffing while using his Teabag Physad Powers to demonstrate that Shadowrun will never escape the 80s.
Now that's some epic I can actually wrap my mind around.
ULTIMATE COMBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
There's one important element that I haven't noticed mentioned yet: the players.
It doesn't matter how much cyberpunk that the writers inject into their books and it doesn't matter how maticulously the GM plans the game to include all manner cyberpunk elements if all the players want to play is a game of: Hightech mercenaries in a bizarre and paranoid dystopic future than that's all you're going to get.
I think SR at this point is being written a little more cyberthug than cyberpunk but I think that has more to do w/ reflecting trends in modern society.
The game still has all the elements necessary for a great cyberpunk game it's really just up to the GM and players to make it happen.
It doesn't matter how much cyberpunk that the writers inject into their books and it doesn't matter how maticulously the GM plans the game to include all manner cyberpunk elements if all the players want to play is a game of: Hightech mercenaries in a bizarre and paranoid dystopic future than that's all you're going to get.
I think SR at this point is being written a little more cyberthug than cyberpunk but I think that has more to do w/ reflecting trends in modern society.
The game still has all the elements necessary for a great cyberpunk game it's really just up to the GM and players to make it happen.
| QUOTE (BishopMcQ) |
| I think a lot of the grit and run-down feeling depends on the GM and players to mutually create. |
I went about it circuitously, does that count?
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| or take down the ghoul serial killer that Lone Star doesn't care about since he stays in the Barrens. |
That's a good idea. Plenty of people just look the other way when serial killers target ghouls; it's terrible.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| ULTIMATE COMBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO |
Seconded.
@Kronk2: if you like the Road Warrior concept, check out "Target: Awakened Lands". I never read any of Gibson's books, but did play CP2020 for a time. I think the overall quality of SR is superior to anything produced by RTG.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Sep 22 2007, 09:23 PM) | ||
That's a good idea. Plenty of people just look the other way when serial killers target ghouls; it's terrible. |
Uh, did he mean a serial killer who happens to be a ghoul or a serial killer who happens to only kill ghouls?
Pirate ghosts
A Serial Killer that is a Ghoul.
| QUOTE (TheMadDutchman) |
| There's one important element that I haven't noticed mentioned yet: the players. |
I agree, I can provide setting and tone, but if my players don't go with it then whatever feel I am going for gets blown out the window.
I admit that a large chunk of my problem is my style of gaming. I tend to run an action comedy, I tend to the immediate fun of the moment rather than attempting to get the feel of the thing exactly right. Problem with this is that I have some silly players.
It seems that one really needs to hammer home the thematic elements that one is trying to convey. But I guess this is more about the descriptive rather than any other narrative tool.
---
| QUOTE (TheMadDutchman @ Sep 22 2007, 06:37 PM) |
| The game still has all the elements necessary for a great cyberpunk game it's really just up to the GM and players to make it happen. |
Players are a problem. You can run cyberpunk (or comedy) using any game system. But how many players are really convinced that all the paranoid Japan takes over the world, technology will steal our souls, and huge corporations will replace national governments, computers=TRON crap that infests the mid-80s books actually makes any sense, much less is cool any more?
If you can get the players to go along with it, that's fine.
But I'd rather do the deliberate self-conscious silliness of Snow Crash (Hiro Protagonist!!) if I have to directly do a cyberpunk book as a game.
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| But how many players are really convinced that all the paranoid Japan takes over the world, technology will steal our souls, and huge corporations will replace national governments, computers=TRON crap that infests the mid-80s books actually makes any sense, much less is cool any more? |
I agree, can we please get rid of the Essence rules in the next version of Shadowrun? Enough of the "technology eats your soul" hippy crap.
It has less to do with that and more to do with "magic or cyber" from a metagaming point of view, in addition to being a limit on how much augmentation you can have/how much your body can take. It's why Bio Index was rolled into it, and why they got rid of voluntary geasa to offset magic loss in standard games.
Without it or a similar mechanic, there'd be no reason at all to not play a magician or adept.
Without it or a similar mechanic, there'd be no reason at all to not play a magician or adept.
@WoundedRonin
I have no words
That was silly, profane, brilliant, campy Soooo True and awsome.
<raises his drink >
I have no words
That was silly, profane, brilliant, campy Soooo True and awsome.
<raises his drink >
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| It has less to do with that and more to do with "magic or cyber" from a metagaming point of view, in addition to being a limit on how much augmentation you can have/how much your body can take. It's why Bio Index was rolled into it, and why they got rid of voluntary geasa to offset magic loss in standard games. Without it or a similar mechanic, there'd be no reason at all to not play a magician or adept. |
That's true, it works in Shadowrun because Shadowrun is already a very hippie game. Even though it's very hippie, I still love my mentor spirit...<gasp>, does that mean I'm becoming a hippie too?
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| But how many players are really convinced that all the paranoid Japan takes over the world, technology will steal our souls, and huge corporations will replace national governments, computers=TRON crap that infests the mid-80s books actually makes any sense, much less is cool any more? |
Reread my post plz. kthxbye.
| QUOTE (D Minor) |
| @WoundedRonin I have no words That was silly, profane, brilliant, campy Soooo True and awsome. <raises his drink > |
A-fucking-men, brother. Seriously. I'll drink to that. As soon as I get home I'm getting into the gin.
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| I think that optimism may change in a few years, honestly. The initial pangs of globalization are (as could have been predicted) against basic labor. Now it's climbing up to basic services. Give it another five years and we'll see a major shift in the optimism of high-tech employees who now have to have a master's to stay ahead. That feeling will trickle down and we'll shift back into a more cyberpunk setting. |
As a high tech employee doing chemistry research, i can tell you this is already true.
I have constant pressure from above to get a masters if i want a promotion. A simple degree in Materials isnt enough. As it is, I could become a true wageslave, work 10 hours a day, 6 days a week and get paid for 40 hours and eventually get a single tier promotion if i kiss all the right asses, or get a masters and get that juicy promotion that will pay... just barely enough extra to cover paying off the loans for the MS. And to get to the next tier after that? Same process. Only replace Masters with PhD. Past that? All ass kissing.
Every department at my company is the same. They all know it sucks, they all hate it, but they keep doing it. Because the alternative is unemployment.
My 
2
In some respects, cyberpunk is obsolete. The manifesto that was posted earlier in the thread is horribly out of date. Seriously, who actually likes the beep and grind of a modem? It comes across as whiny and elitist, not thought-provoking and insightful. The technology end of traditional cyberpunk is a lost cause, and I think it's mostly because we have a lot of the technology that was so "scary" in the 80's. Sure, we don't have simsense, and thus don't have problems with black IC, but have you heard of the things hackers do at DefCon? Hacking live satellite feeds? Any number of hardware and software exploits? Most technology is hacked before it's on retail shelves. It's crazy, but it's what happens. Today. William Gibson stopped trying to predict what would happen with technology because it was simply moving too fast for him (Source: http://www.silicon.com/silicon/management/...168006-2,00.htm )
And do you realize how many people are on social networking sites? How easy it is to find information on somebody? It's simple. Facebook. Myspace. LiveJournal. Blogger. If you want information on somebody, you don't have to hack to get it. In fact, in most cases, you just have to ask for it (ie, make a "friend request") and people will give it to you. Creepy. (I actually demonstrated this phenomenon playing a game of assassination in my Murder Mysteries class. I used facebook to gather information, and was a force to be reckoned with.)
Now, being a liberal commie hippie, I would also almost argue that we're living a dystopia (at least here in the good ol' U.S. of A.) We have a tyrranical government, which is still democratic, yes, but the candidates' campaigns are funded by "donations" from corporations. I see no reason why the president wouldn't take that into account when making decisions Currently, we're in a "war" that, seemingly, has no purpose. We've been in this state for a long, long time. Longer than anyone could have guessed. Seems pretty dystopian to me.
I don't know what goes on in the shadows of this world, because I'm just a simple web developer. But I know that there are real-life bounty hunters and real-life hackers. Maybe they're running the shadows as we speak.
So, in conclusion, we're basically living in a cyberpunk world. That may be why some people don't think SR is cyberpunk anymore. Personally, I think it is.
2In some respects, cyberpunk is obsolete. The manifesto that was posted earlier in the thread is horribly out of date. Seriously, who actually likes the beep and grind of a modem? It comes across as whiny and elitist, not thought-provoking and insightful. The technology end of traditional cyberpunk is a lost cause, and I think it's mostly because we have a lot of the technology that was so "scary" in the 80's. Sure, we don't have simsense, and thus don't have problems with black IC, but have you heard of the things hackers do at DefCon? Hacking live satellite feeds? Any number of hardware and software exploits? Most technology is hacked before it's on retail shelves. It's crazy, but it's what happens. Today. William Gibson stopped trying to predict what would happen with technology because it was simply moving too fast for him (Source: http://www.silicon.com/silicon/management/...168006-2,00.htm )
And do you realize how many people are on social networking sites? How easy it is to find information on somebody? It's simple. Facebook. Myspace. LiveJournal. Blogger. If you want information on somebody, you don't have to hack to get it. In fact, in most cases, you just have to ask for it (ie, make a "friend request") and people will give it to you. Creepy. (I actually demonstrated this phenomenon playing a game of assassination in my Murder Mysteries class. I used facebook to gather information, and was a force to be reckoned with.)
Now, being a liberal commie hippie, I would also almost argue that we're living a dystopia (at least here in the good ol' U.S. of A.) We have a tyrranical government, which is still democratic, yes, but the candidates' campaigns are funded by "donations" from corporations. I see no reason why the president wouldn't take that into account when making decisions Currently, we're in a "war" that, seemingly, has no purpose. We've been in this state for a long, long time. Longer than anyone could have guessed. Seems pretty dystopian to me.
I don't know what goes on in the shadows of this world, because I'm just a simple web developer. But I know that there are real-life bounty hunters and real-life hackers. Maybe they're running the shadows as we speak.
So, in conclusion, we're basically living in a cyberpunk world. That may be why some people don't think SR is cyberpunk anymore. Personally, I think it is.
Personally, I like that shadowrun has evolved to remain relevant. Cyberpunk is no longer relevant. It is a 1980's projection of the future. The themes of Shadowrun have shifted toward transhumanism, which is much more 21st century.
I like cyberpunk, but it is outdated, and it gets less believable with each passing year.
I like cyberpunk, but it is outdated, and it gets less believable with each passing year.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| refusing to go onstage because the candy bowl has RED candies in the mix that your contract specifically stated were to be removed Blandness is a Negative Quality. P.S. Laser Axe + steel strings = music of the gods! Make it a cyber weapon version and you are set. |
Interestingly, I heard an interview that included the reasoning behind that. It was a 'detail check' to make sure the details of the contract had actually been followed, particularly regarding the technical aspects of the stage equipment.
Totally boring shit, but it does make for fun stories. The trashing of rooms is just how rockers display their displeasure/explain that they won't play on a stage that is going to sink into the flooring...
| QUOTE (Eryk the Red) |
| Personally, I like that shadowrun has evolved to remain relevant. Cyberpunk is no longer relevant. It is a 1980's projection of the future. The themes of Shadowrun have shifted toward transhumanism, which is much more 21st century. I like cyberpunk, but it is outdated, and it gets less believable with each passing year. |
I agree, and feel that we occupy more of a techno thriller genre than scifi. Although it wouldn;t be hard to do a hard scifi game using the shadowrun setting. attribute the metaraces to elective genetic modification and away we go. Magic could be explained via quark manipulation.
----
I guess the next question here is where do we want to go with Shadowrun as a community? What do we want this thing that we love to become? I am glad however that we have kept the scientific accuracy in many areas.
According to Lawrence Person (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Person):
"Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an [sic] ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body."
Using that definition, I'd say SR is still very much Cyberpunk, as that description applies to some extent just about every character played in my game. Of course I do run a rather dark and bleak world.
And unlike most here I do not see Cyberpunk as a dead genre so much as =it has been forgotten/overlooked. I agree witht he poster above who states that perhaps the elementrs of cyberpunk are so hard to recognize because we are living in a dystopian society now.
For me, the struggle of individual freedom v. forced conformity, which certainly rings true in today's world. Do you do your onw thing or conform and keep your job ( become a wagslave ). The influence of multi-national corporations on our every day life, from outsourcing jobs to setting national policy exists today and should be visible in the mega-corps of SR. SR is certtainly still relevent to today's world. And yes, it is still cyberpunk to run the shadows!
"Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an [sic] ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body."
Using that definition, I'd say SR is still very much Cyberpunk, as that description applies to some extent just about every character played in my game. Of course I do run a rather dark and bleak world.
And unlike most here I do not see Cyberpunk as a dead genre so much as =it has been forgotten/overlooked. I agree witht he poster above who states that perhaps the elementrs of cyberpunk are so hard to recognize because we are living in a dystopian society now.
For me, the struggle of individual freedom v. forced conformity, which certainly rings true in today's world. Do you do your onw thing or conform and keep your job ( become a wagslave ). The influence of multi-national corporations on our every day life, from outsourcing jobs to setting national policy exists today and should be visible in the mega-corps of SR. SR is certtainly still relevent to today's world. And yes, it is still cyberpunk to run the shadows!
| QUOTE |
| "Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society |
Also a pretty good definition of all the gamers I met when I first started playing. We really only fealt truly comfortable amongst one another. "Birds of a feather" I suppose.
| QUOTE (SonofaSailor) |
| perhaps the elementrs of cyberpunk are so hard to recognize because we are living in a dystopian society now. |
If you really think that you really don't have much of a clue about what an oppressive dystopian society is like.
| QUOTE (Kronk2) |
| I agree, and feel that we occupy more of a techno thriller genre than scifi. Although it wouldn;t be hard to do a hard scifi game using the shadowrun setting. attribute the metaraces to elective genetic modification and away we go. Magic could be explained via quark manipulation. ---- |
...this is sort of the way I have been going with a bit more intrigue thrown in. Part of the reason I set my current campaign in Europe is because governments and government agencies there tend to have a bit more presence in people's lives. Take for example the UK which is effectively a police state, the Triple O shows up and you basically disappear. In Seattle (and the UCAS) it is pretty much all about the corps or organised crime and the police forces are a for-profit commercial venture.
I recently GM-ed a fairly tense scenario which took place in London While it dealt with an international arms dealer, the team had to watch their every step, for even walking around the "Smoke" while carrying concealed firearms was a ticket for trouble. An NP officer is not your friendly London Bobby depicted in the cinema. He is a trained military professional, who is armed with milspec weaponry. If you look the least suspicious, you can be detained and searched without warning.
In this way I find the UK (at least 2nd/3rd ed) to be very dystopian and having an SF edge.
| QUOTE (Zhan Shi) | ||
Also a pretty good definition of all the gamers I met when I first started playing. We really only fealt truly comfortable amongst one another. "Birds of a feather" I suppose. |
Hopefully you met some other gamers in the meantime too. Not all of us fit that description.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| In this way I find the UK (at least 2nd/3rd ed) to be very dystopian and having an SF edge. |
It didn't change much since then, even though the overhaul in SoE cleared up some things.
| QUOTE (kzt) | ||
If you really think that you really don't have much of a clue about what an oppressive dystopian society is like. |
Not all dystopian societies are openly oppresive.
"Dystopian" is also a completely subjective term.
If we're going to start waxing philisophical here then I'd have to say we are not living in a dystopia. Nearly every classic example of dystopia that we have from 1984 to Anthem to We to Brave New World is a product of the cold war. More specifically Mc-Carthiesm. They were a reaction against the increasing power of the state and the specific situiation that many Americans saw developing in the 1950's. Democracies are remarkably roubust however and nothing came of these dire perdictions. Sentator Mc-Carthy was disgraced, America left Vietnam and the world continued to chug along.
Cyberpunk style distopia relies on the same core concepts that people will allow their personal freedoms to be erroded to the point that they are nonexistant. Like I said though, democracy is pretty well entrenched in the western world and people will only let things go so far before they wake up and put the brakes on.
Cyberpunk style distopia relies on the same core concepts that people will allow their personal freedoms to be erroded to the point that they are nonexistant. Like I said though, democracy is pretty well entrenched in the western world and people will only let things go so far before they wake up and put the brakes on.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| "Dystopian" is also a completely subjective term. |
Definately - the dystopian cyberpunk settings are Utopia for the elite at the top (well, not quite - but almost...)
I think there's still a lot of cyberpunk in the Shadowrun setting, even if it's been toned down. I think the end of SR3 and the beginning of SR4 has put us in a darker setting that SR has had for a long time, even though it's incorporated many other genres as well.
There is plenty of room to run Shadowrun as almost any fantasy/sci-fi setting (except space opera).
Y'know...In 2 years, we see the 20th anniversary of Shadowrun.
Which provokes a question:
Most of the likely playerbase (SR's playerbase is still 16-24, no?) wouldn't even have been alive when the game started, let alone old enough to remember what 80s fashions and cyberpunk and 80s-style dystopia looked like.
I mean, there's also the practical matter: Megacorporate extraterritoriality ain't happened yet. Not only that, we're seeing major industries go to Congress and beg to be more tightly regulated!
So...How long can Shadowrun continue until its foundational features (Megacorporate extraterritoriality, etc) look as outdated as, oh...1950s-style visions of what the year 2000 will be like?
...Speaking of which, I WANT MY PERSONAL JETPACK! (Can't drive, so a flying car is useless...)
Which provokes a question:
Most of the likely playerbase (SR's playerbase is still 16-24, no?) wouldn't even have been alive when the game started, let alone old enough to remember what 80s fashions and cyberpunk and 80s-style dystopia looked like.
I mean, there's also the practical matter: Megacorporate extraterritoriality ain't happened yet. Not only that, we're seeing major industries go to Congress and beg to be more tightly regulated!
So...How long can Shadowrun continue until its foundational features (Megacorporate extraterritoriality, etc) look as outdated as, oh...1950s-style visions of what the year 2000 will be like?
...Speaking of which, I WANT MY PERSONAL JETPACK! (Can't drive, so a flying car is useless...)
...and I still want the car that folds into a briefcase at the touch of a button ala Jetsons style. 
I got really drunk last night because of this thread. That is PROOF that the world we live in right now is not dystopian. Because if it were dystopian there would only be synthahol and it would as a rule not make you happy but somehow magically only make you feel more depressed.
| QUOTE (Trax) |
| A Serial Killer that is a Ghoul. |
Actually, I think the idea of a serial killer preying on ghouls is slightly better. The reason the Green River Killer (am I getting that name right?) was so successful was because his victims were prostitutes; people that lived outside the law. Difficult to track, unlikely to report abuses, and had a tendency to disappear or move on on their own. And they were people that law enforcement didn't spend a lot of time trying to help. (I'm picking the GRK out of a hat, but I guess you can go through and pick a lot of serial killers who have preyed upon the fringes of society, for a lot of the same reasons.)
Basically, everything that made prostitutes attractive as victims to the GRK is multiplied in ghouls. Nobody is going to miss them, the cops aren't going to investigate the disappearances. They may not be as vulnerable as the average street walker, but it is Shadowrun, so the serial killer is can be pretty dangerous in his own right.
But the best part of it is the choice that leaves to the pcs. Is it acceptable to victimize people simply because they are ghouls? It plays against type, casting an unsympathetic victim. (Easy choices are essentially uninteresting choices, to borrow a screenwriting phrase.)
Personally, I don't mind it that most of what my characters do won't affect the SR world at large. Most of what I do won't affect the real world at large, and rather than feel disenfranchised by that in the game, I find its a nice bit of verisimilitude. I find that its much more entertaining to make choices that are important to the character's world, and that can be a nation, a continent, or 3 city blocks. Its not so much the scale that interests me, but rather, how much we have invested in it.
| QUOTE (imperialus @ Sep 24 2007, 04:51 PM) |
| If we're going to start waxing philisophical here then I'd have to say we are not living in a dystopia. Nearly every classic example of dystopia that we have from 1984 to Anthem to We to Brave New World is a product of the cold war. More specifically Mc-Carthiesm. They were a reaction against the increasing power of the state and the specific situiation that many Americans saw developing in the 1950's. |
Yes, of course, because people were so very concerned about the rise of McCarthyism in the 1950's at the times the aforementioned books were published, those times being 1921 for We (Written in Russia), 1932 for Brave New World (in Britain), 1938 for Anthem, and 1949 for 1984.
Yes, I do imagine that Britons living in 1932 were extremely concerned about the rise of McCarthyism in the United States in the 1950s.
And yes, I am being extremely sarcastic.
1984 and was written in response to Stalinist Socialism and was inspired by We.
Brave New World was a refutation of the 1923 H.G.Wells novel Men Like Gods
We was written in response to the conditions of Russia during its revolutions and World War I.
For the most part, dystoria is a direct attack on utopian ideals, it challenges the assumption that a perfect utopian society is a good thing. Some challenge the Communist version of utopia, pointing out the very real failings sof the Socialist system. Others challenge the very idea of peaceful utopia, asserting that removing conflict fom human existence will also remove all of those things that give life meaning.
In the latter, it is the powerful unified state that is the primary villain. In the former, the villain isn't the state but the people themselves and their complacency.
Megacorporate fiefdoms aren't particularly dystopian. They are, in fact, anti-dystopian. The necessity of economic interaction with the outside world and other megacorps prevents any fiefdom from becoming a self-contained One State. Violent competition for top employees (extractions, both voluntary and involuntary) places strong emphasis on the importance of the individual. The ease at which a Megacorp can be toppled or replaced, again, is anti-dystopian. While it is difficult, it has been done, unlike the all-powerful States of classic dystopia, which were essentially invincible. And cutthroat nature of business in the Megacorp world fuels human ambition rather than repressing it.
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