Frank. Before anything else, i want to be clear that i congrats you for all the effort put in your rules and sharing with people. Your rules are cool, but i really can't shallow the Naked BrainHacking thing. And I'll try to explain why.

I agree with you that you don't need a science theory around a fictional creation, but as you already said, you need a logic and a reasoning behind it (and anything you presents as "the logic behind the process" the player will use to extrapolate the functions of something).

I ask. How, without brain sending any feedback to the hacker, the hacker chooses a specific brain in a crowd (when there is more than one brain on your range and LOS). At least for me hacking is about analyzing a system and taking decisions on the fly to invade it... since you can't analyze the naked brain (no feedback) your just sending a generic "brain frying" signal. And that leads to some problems.

First. If you rule a Directional Ray, that you point to the target and "press ENTER", we're back on "Mental Ray" scenario, presented by Moon-Hawk again. Second, you can rule that it put coordinates (maybe relative to your present position) so you can pinpoint the brain. You can't rule the "harmonizing with the brain" think (just like mages do to use magic on someone) because you have no feedback from the brain, and nothing to harmonize too.

In any of above presented scenarios you get the same problem. There is no need for the hacker. Is something like "point the "braingfrying" to your opponent, press ENTER". And so it can be converted in a "gun" of sorts, or even a Photoshop Plugin (Gaussian Blur, Unsharp Mask, BrainHacking). It will not make hacker any special, because anyone capable of reading a instruction manual, and press ENTER, can use.

Another scenario if you rule that it broadcast a generic signal is that, even incapable of "world wide brain frying", you could affect ALL the brain in range, maybe even yours or the one of your friends.



That said, at least for me all this "need to make hacker more useful in combat" is really, really D&D like (one of the principles of D&D 4th is that all the classes must have usefulness in combat). Hackers have, and that's been proved so far... you said that people can protect thenself just by jacking out... yes, they can... but they can protect themselves from a mage by hiding, and from a Sammy by never showing up where the sammy is. And when this happens, is almost always the hacker that finds him... by subscribing to the local cameras or data search.

I read all the arguments about even a Sammy with some points spent on hacking skill can do this. I'm ok with those arguments, but Naked BrainHacking don't solve those problems, just creates another.


Getting back to the topic as it is.

I have a friend from the job that is "internet afraid"... he don't buy thing through internet or use internet banking because he is afraid of being hacked, stolen or anything else. From time to time his life became a hell because of it... he have to take 2 bus from his home to the bank every time he needs to know how his account is. And this very week he needed a book to the university, he bought the book and will need to wait 2 weeks to get it, because he needed to order in a local library, while he could have bought through the internet and receive in 2 days.

I´m, as a graphic designer, totaly depended of internet. I it's so this way today, it wil be even worse on 2070. I´m risking myself (when i risk my money i risk myself, ok) every time i buy through the internet (i've been even cheated through internet before, some time ago), but i just need to do, as i risk my life every time i cross a road where cars run... but i just need to do to the life go on.

mfb, everything that you just said is a "ctegory error". It is literally pointless for us to continue having a discussion because your preconceptions of how things have to work do not match what I'm talking about. No matter how many times I explain my position, whether I use big words or small ones, you will never agree or even understand my position. I think I'm beginning to understand where you're coming from, but honestly I don't think you are even trying to understand where I'm coming from. I'm not going to respond to you any more. Not because I hate you, but because I cannot see responding to you doing any good.

My problem has never been that brainhacking shouldn't be possible under your axioms, Frank. My problem has been that it fails to consider the consequences of removing the brain barrier on the structure of society. Brainhacking is not necessary for Shadowrun. On the contrary, I believe it is exclusive.

Banning agents is fine? But what happens when someone turns that idea on its head by using a memetic virus to create human botnets?

If we can rewrite the brain essentially at will, why not upload hacking skillsofts and force them to perpetuate the hack? All you need to emulate hacking skillwires is in the brain, and seeing as we've handwaved the ability to just rework that organ, why not?

Of course, maybe that isn't necessary. It could just compel any victim with sufficient income to get skillwire surgery, and presto. You've got a human botnet.

People could get cyberskulls or cyberskin with faraday cage like insulators. Then they run a wire with hard physical only switch to connect or disconnect to the outside world. Presto, people can "opt out" of your system all over again. Better living through technology.

Or maybe a memetic virus that compels people to do exactly that. There are just so many side effects beyond Shadowrun's limited psychotropic technology.

Yes, but the max number of nerves is never specified. Thus, without further information, it is infinite.

Also, it ignores the ramifications. If it could be done, someone would have done it already. It'd be incredibly difficult to explain the first time Grandma, who'd never used a TRODE NET, got zapped by Black Hammer.

Don't you think that might just -completely fuck up the world-?

The point is, frying "naked" brains just isn't possible. And if it is possible there's no reason why having a commlink will fix that. The target doesn't require ANY hardware whatsoever. The attack is obviously bypassing it all. It has to unless it's dependant on hardware, which it can't be if you're allowing it to affect "naked" brains.

What he wants are remote 'trode networks; a technology that doesn't work wirelessly, but requires physical contact with the subject. He assumes otherwise and he assumes wrong. Hell, if 'trodes worked the way he desperately wished they did, you wouldn't even need 'trode headsets. Companies, stores, and pretty much every other place on earth could just create entire locations that automagically connect to people's brain. And if they could, they would if for no other reason than to force feed AR advertisements down your throat against your will.

And having a commlink wouldn't help one iota because the technology isn't talking to the commlink at all.

Even worse, as multiple other people have pointed out, it wouldn't even accomplish his alleged desire: To force everyone on the planet to be connected to the Matrix 24/7. People do that voluntary, not because they have to but because it provides them with services they not only need but crave. And if this sort of danger and this type of a violation of a person's rights were so blatant, someone somewhere would come up with countermeasures. Especially shadowrunners. The silly Faraday cage cyberskull being a shining example.

Why? Because if such technology existed, it would be the ultimate security measure. Anyone who even remotely approached a secure facility would have their brains detected just like that <snap>, even if they had a commlink with a bad ass firewall. All that commlink would do is help protect against the constant, non-stop assault on their brains that the security forces would unleash... assuming you go with Frank's goofy assessment of how the technology would work, despite how it actually would.

For someone who stomps and whines about wanting a persistant game world that makes sense, it's pretty odd how quickly he ignores the consequences of his ideas and theories.

@Fortune: A sammie doesn't improve by increasing his combat skills, he improves by becoming an android. I mean, it's always been my experience that a sammie improves by getting better Wired Reflexes, better agility/strength/body enhancers, better bone lacing, whatever. The sammie improves by reading Augmentation. A hacker has no such luxury. And maybe Unwired will be amazing, but I'm not waiting for it when I have perfectly good house rules right here, right now.

As for the face, I do have an opinion on this matter, but I'm not going to discuss it because it's irrelevant to the subject at hand. The best case scenario for you would be me saying that there's no problem with faces and you can point and call me a hypocrite. If you really like, you can do that anyway, I won't stop you. But even if my views were inconsistent, that wouldn't make them wrong. Do you chastise women's rights groups because they don't actively campaign for gay rights, too? Well, I'm campaigning for hackers' rights, and that doesn't mean I have to campaign for faces' rights, too. If you feel faces are being slighted, by all means, start a thread about it, I may even join in, but probably not since it's abundantly clear to me, and no doubt abundantly clear to you too, that we each want to play a very different kind of game, and that's totally okay.

Seriously. I'm not sure why you've come after me so venomously, but you want to play in a game where hacker is an option that your other characters can take if they feel like it, and I really don't begrudge you at all for it. I want to play a game where hackers have just as many options (and require just as much investment) as sammies and mages, and that's fine too. Because of the different games we want to play, we will never reach an agreement on this matter, and that's still completely okay. That's part of what makes RPGs so awesome: I can play my game, you can play your game, and we can both be happy. I'm sorry if this feels like I'm dismissing you, because you've genuinely put forth some good arguments, but we've been discussing this for eleven pages and I want to move on. So I am. I sincerely hope you continue to enjoy your game.

If that's the case, the solution is simple. Go retro. Increase all the hacker-related equipment ten-fold (if not more). Problem solved. Because that was the only real obstacle in previous editions. Allowing brainhacking or any other such silliness most certainly isn't a solution -- if anything, it all but insures everyone will have the best hacking gear they can afford.

Jus to be completely clear: You are saying that if you can do one thing, that you must be able to do OVER NINE THOUSAND things? And that doing OVER NINE THOUSAND is game breaking, and that any statements that you can do ONE and not OVER NINE THOUSAND are a straw man?

Is there any part of that I'm misrepresenting? Because from here it looks like you're doing the same thing mfb was doing: deliberately and repeatedly ignoring the stated limitations of the system and using completely implausible horror scenarios as a straw man argument.

Just like I've told mfb, the ability to do something once, or even one at a time, does not imply infinity. Or any large number. You can make a very plausible case that any amount of "some" could be an arbitrarily large some instead. But if you are given one it is not topologically similar to infinity. And if you run around flapping your arms over these things, then you are the one with a straw man.

The Brain Hacking available is basically equivalent to Influence. It does not turn people into your warrior army of ninja sex slave hackers. Since you're basically making a straw man argument again and again, I have nothing more to say on this subject. If you bring this up again I will respond simply with "No."

-Frank

You're the one with the incredibly weak argument. You're saying that if you can shoot a man between the eyes at point blank range with a gun, there is no other viable use for firearm technology. And worse, now you're saying that the gun can only shoot gel rounds that only sorta sting really bad and aren't deadly at all... but the technology still can't do much of anything else. It's just a means of making people wear helmets. Oh, and that only hardcore shootists can use this amazing technology.

No one else can pick up a gun and shoot it. There are no machine guns. There are no fragmentation grenades. There are no tasers. There are no tranq guns. Nothing, because that would be part of OVER NINE THOUSAND things you could do with firearm technology, when all you wanted was a means of making people put on a helmet because... uhm, you thought it was an awesome fashion statement.

And yes, your reasonings for brain hacking really are every bit as absurd as that.

With all due respect, given how many people you've thus far decided to decline to continue the discussion with, you may wish to consider the idea that you may not be communicating your ideas effectively.

~J

Sure can. Saying "no" to someone regarding them wanting to start the game with an arsenal of tactical nukes is exactly the same as saying "no" because I refuse to acknowledge how foolish something I've said is.

jesus christ you make my head hurt. i could care less if you respond to this or not, Frank, it needs to be said: your arguments are not logically consistent. the only thing holding them together is the fact that you want them to stay together. the assumptions you are making have ramifications that you refuse to acknowledge. the fact that you refuse to acknowledge them does not make them illogical. kinda the opposite, actually--the fact that you refuse to acknowledge them makes you illogical. it doesn't make you the bigger man, it makes you the little kid with his fingers in his ears going "LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU."

a perfect example is your list of arguments that you don't want to see again. let's take the first one: "If Attack A can affect a target who doesn't have Special Item B, then Special Item B can't possibly protect the target from Attack A." nobody said that. nobody said that the reason commlinks can't protect brains is because black hammer can affect people without commlinks. you're ignoring the reasoning presented to you and putting words in people's mouths, and then wondering why those people get mad at you.

"If one person can take one action to accomplish one unit of work, then they can take one action to accomplish an arbitrarily large amount of work." same deal--nobody said that. whether one action can accomplish an arbitrary amount of work depends wholly on what the work is. if the work is sending out an email, for instance, a single action can accomplish an arbitrary amount of work. your system depends on the concept that brainhacking is a non-repetitious process, that sending the same data to unprotected brains will have different results. but that is impossible, because there is no possible way to 'read' an unprotected brain to find out what data you need to send to achieve result X. therefore, if 'hacking' an unprotected brain is possible at all, all it involves is sending a certain set of data to it. sending a set of data to an arbitrary number of recipient nodes is, unless there is some other limitation, as easy as sending it to one node.

Perhaps you should read the post above mine, too. As well as the numerous other ones by numerous other people with similar attitudes therein. Including ones by your apparent idol.

Just saying.

when i post ideas lacking in internal consistency, i appreciate--if only after the fact, sometimes--getting reamed for it. hurt feelings get better, but dumb ideas last until they are knocked down and curb-stomped.

So, Frank's ruleset represents a departure from SR4 technology. It's obviously more advanced, and represents Minority Report-type tech rather than Johnny Mnemonic-type tech.

But if you want to talk 'realism', I think it becomes apparent that for SR4 technology to seem internally consistent you need to either go in the direction Frank is going, or jam it into reverse. Take the example of 'trodes. They can be used to perform read operations on the brain in real time. They require little power and no calibration or circuitry beyond an interface to a comlink.
This indicates that SR4 comlinks probably come loaded with incredibly accurate models of metahuman brains, such that they can quickly scan in any differences using sensors placed in arbitrary and possibly shifting positions, and then use the modified model to accurately read in information from any individual.

If that's true, there should be nothing stopping sensors not touching the metahuman to read the same information as (or more information than) the trodes. After all, current MRIs and SQUIDs can get higher resolution data than electrodes without touching the subject. It's true that current SQUIDs get completely decalibrated when you so much as wear glitter near them, and MRIs can cause 3rd degree burns if you've got metallic ink in your tattoos. It's also true that their time resolution tends towards slow. However, there's no way that you could get the resolution needed from electrodes either. We're dealing with "sufficiently advanced technology" here.

So in Frank's universe, we go with the flow and say, OK, hidden transmitters can beam advertisements directly into your lateral geniculate nucleus using FFT-modulated ultrasound or triangulated electromagnetic radiation to heat neurons.
If you're smart, you have a comlink, which has a firewall, which constantly monitors your brain for incoming signals, dampens them with destructive interference, and tells the source to route communications through it.
Unfortunately, that comlink can be jammed too. When it is, oops, that firewall is no longer protecting your brain, and in comes the spam.

Some people stick their comlinks right into their heads. This is a pretty invasive procedure, because it involves implanting a fucking Faraday cage in your skull. Why? Because interfacing wirelessly is a lot more convenient than running wires to every other neuron in your brain, but at the same time the possibility of jamming obnoxious. The end result saves processing speed, as the only firewall you need is one to protect your digital hardware. In addition, having the comlink that much closer to the grey saves precious picoseconds (although it's questionable whether your wetware ever notices as its clock cycles are not of that order). Plus it's pretty much a prerequisite for jamming other shit in there.

So the wireless brain interface goes both ways (that's how an unblocked advert for a strip club can result in creamed jeans). This means that an asshole with a hacked link can try to overload your input and give you a seizure, or possibly just spike the heat and cook part of your brain. That's bad, but although sensory and even emotional i/o is scarily effective (metahuman sensory apparatuses tend to be similar), and although there's enough radiation out there to microwave your head, certain things are still mostly inviolate. Holographic structures which tend to be unique to individuals and surprisingly hard to even detect, let alone interpret. This means that your memories are mostly safe. "Mostly" because, like any other form of encryption, they can be cracked given time and expertise...


Anyway, that's my take on how Frank's matrix technology works. Like I said, there's another route which involves saying that the only way to get a good DNI is cyberware or an immobile apparatuses (SQUIDs, probably) with calibration times. I like the flavor of that route better, but unlike Frank's it has no working rules system. Until someone (maybe me) comes up with that other working system, I'm going to use Frank's (which IMO fits the flavor of SR4 better anyway).



If this was tl;dr, the take home message is: The wireless tech can work and make sense, and it's the only working example of the two good possibilities I can think of.

Personnaly I think that's what the SimModule is about: calibrating your DNI according to your own brain. That's why you need one.
That's also why (in my opinion) signals processed by another SimModule but sent to your DNI won't work... But that's not the topic of this discussion.

BBB 231

Personally, I just don't understand the vehemence on either side of this particular argument (which is ironic, considering I'm all for blinding rage and biting sarcasm). What's-His-Fuck has some house rules he likes, and some other people don't like them. He and other people who want to house rule stuff can play with them, other people can think they're crap, and everyone can be happy.

If I were to propose a house rule that every street samurai got +1 damage with any implant weapon because I think they need the help...well...I'd understand that other people are free to take it or leave it. Likewise, if I proposed every spellcaster got to add Magic to their Drain resistance tests, or something (just to think of another "class" to give a boost to). A house rule's just a house rule. Folks can think that it's called for and balance, or they can not, and play the game as published.

It's just a house rule. Why this particular one deserves a dozen pages of arguing (on top of at least one other thread that was who knows how long) is beyond me.

You know, I was going to get all huffy and make some comment about asking for feedback on your ideas and then getting all abusive when people try to give it to you.
I thought the purpose of this thread was to talk about the premises and talk about which of the 3 options for the Nash Equilibrium was the most likely. We could talk about which things were reasonable, and what their further implications might be.
But you know what? I was wrong. You didn't ask for feedback; I just went back and checked the first post.
So, sorry to clutter this thread up with a bunch of useless discussion.

For the record: I like #1) Computers are so amazingly awesome that people doing secret research consider the risk of being hacked worth it. I like that because that's exactly how it works today, and while I expect the risk of hacking would go up somewhat, I expect the amazing awesomeness of computers to go up more.
I like everything about Frank's new system except the naked-brain interface thing, and the antenna-less chip interface thing, and the few things that I think stem directly from that. (even though I've only been talking about the naked-brain thing). I do find the antenna-less chip thing to be less implausible, but I get the impression that my reasons/opinions on the matter would not be appreciated.
So there, I've said my piece, I've said which parts of the material I don't like, and now I'm going to jolly well leave. I do like your work, overall, and I am sorry that you feel insulted.

I wasn't with the hacking the brain thing, but the more I think about it the more sense it makes.

Trodes can connect wirelessly to your commlink, which has a sim mod to process the VR/IC attacks. A sniffer program can intercept this connection (of course bounced off a close wireless node.. perhaps the other persons commlink) and then "spoof" a command in, or in this case Blackout/Blackhammer into the stream. So what is a trode net but a device that emits the waves read by the brain and output by the brain. Up the power on it and it would be highly effective at a range. So what you have here is your Star Wars Imperial force gun... IE "Set for stun" with Black Out.

What does this take? Some form of amplified Trodes set in ray or area affect. This attachment for the commlink would be rated over the 12F range. Probably in 14F to fire Blackout, with a modified (hot-sim) to fire Black Hammer at 16F. I might recommend some toying with which skills to make the roll, instead of Cybercombat + Program, but otherwise I'd say run with it.

How would a commlink stop this, I think would require either a trodenet, or helmet something to put a Biofeedback filter between your brain and outside influences. This isn't too much to ask, and actually provides a large bonus to Technomancers (natural Biofeedback Filter) and those who take the Natural Hardening quality (natural Biofeedback Filter bonus as well). Allow players to put ranks in Natural Hardening as well if they are paranoid.

Now that I've finished writing this post, I'm fully on your side Frank, awesome idea. And with enough reasoning we can almost predict such devices appearing in Arsenal or even Unwired, if such happens you can grin at those who were flaming you on this.