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Zhan Shi
I had never heard of this man before. His name was Moses Powell, and he founded something called Sanuces Ryu Jujutsu. Unfortunately, he died a few years ago. I'm speaking as an outsider here; my only knowledge of martial arts comes from books and documentaries. But this man has the most quick, fluid, and dangerous moves I've ever seen. You can see more of him and his students on youtube, just look for "Moses Powell" or "Sanuces", but the following video is a good introduction. Watch it here.

I know, from various comments, that at least some here on dumpshock practice martial arts. I'm looking for a competent, traditional school for jujutsu, and I could use some pointers for separating the real thing from the "mcdojos", or perhaps some online resource which provides the same. Since I don't want to get another thread shut down, if anyone could PM me with info, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
Method
You should check out some modern aikido teachers.

Some of my personal favorites are:
Mitsunari Kanai Sensei
Yoshimitsu Yamada Sensei
And
Donovan Waite (seen here and here throwing my teacher, Todd Martin).

[Edit]: Where are you located?
DMFubar
Many years ago, I had the video that short segment was taken from. It was a compelation of masters of the martial arts, and Master Powell was the one master on it that to this day I remembered. For a man that size to be so graceful filled me with awe (especially as I am not a small man myself).

I am sorry to see that Master Powell has passed. He was a great man.

And as to schools for jujitsu, it mainly depends upon where you are located. For instance there is one instructor in the Houston, Texas that I would suggest, Darrel Craig. I have never actually met him, but I have heard nothing but good things.

Dr. Yang Jwing Ming also has a school in the Houston area where you can study Chin-Na, the chinese version of jujitsu. From what I have read, the systems are similar, though Chin-Na is often a subsystem of other styles (White Crane, Eagle Claw, etc.) and includes join locks, throws, and to a greater extent that jujitsu, pressure point strikes.

Redjack
I really liked this one:
Yoshimitsu Yamada Sensei
and this onehere
Though all are amazing.
MaxHunter
just keep away from schools that have lots of fancy useless junk, like accomplishment stars, special flavor-of-the-month pricey additional "courses", "student of the month" and quick promotion systems....

In my country, as if by fate, the best dojos are usually located in the not so best neighborhoods. Maybe it's because that way you get a pretty good incentive to learn your stuff right.

Cheers,

Max
Method
Yeah those clips of Yamada sensei and Kanai sensei are when they were much younger. Kanai sensei actually passed away a few years ago, which was a real loss.

Donovan on the other hand is really in his prime. You should see his ukemi (falling techniques). If I'm remembering right he was a black belt by the age of 14 and is now one of the youngest 7th dan shihan ever. He just keeps getting better.

I should clarify though, that the reason I bring up aikido is because the clips of Master Powell posted by Zhan Shi look more like modern aikido to me than juijutsu, which in the US at least has been greatly influenced by Brazilian styles. Although they all have similar roots...
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (DMFubar)

Dr. Yang Jwing Ming also has a school in the Houston area where you can study Chin-Na, the chinese version of jujitsu. From what I have read, the systems are similar, though Chin-Na is often a subsystem of other styles (White Crane, Eagle Claw, etc.) and includes join locks, throws, and to a greater extent that jujitsu, pressure point strikes.

Chin Na is basically like a more complex version of small circle jujitsu.
Zhan Shi
@Method: I'm roughly 40 miles south of Springfield, VA, in a place called Stafford.

Thanks for the advice all. As I told someone else, to my eye it seems like many "dojos" are trophy shops, geared more towards tournament competion. That's fine I guess, but I want mental/physical/spiritual conditioning, not a trophy case. And yes, I admit, should the need arise I want to be able to beat the crap out of an assailant. But I've never been an agressive person, so more direct styles such as karate don't appeal to me. Blocking a punch and twisting the guy's arm into a pretzel? Yup, that's more my style, so to speak.
Raij
The first half of the video looks like my old Genbukan Ninpo warm ups. nyahnyah.gif Not intending to dishonor the memory of this man and his accomplishments, but those rolls are pretty elementary stuff in the scheme of things. In Genbukan, they held a bamboo rod about 3 foot from the ground and we had to leap over and come down head first into a roll without touching it. Each successful leap saw the bar raise. Usually we got it up to about mid-stomach level before capping out for the day but some could dive over the bar nearly at their chest. Now for a man so big, that's pretty unusual I'll admit, but I don't see the grace in motion there that some do.

The second half of the video was more interesting to me.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Raij)
The first half of the video looks like my old Genbukan Ninpo warm ups. nyahnyah.gif Not intending to dishonor the memory of this man and his accomplishments, but those rolls are pretty elementary stuff in the scheme of things. In Genbukan, they held a bamboo rod about 3 foot from the ground and we had to leap over and come down head first into a roll without touching it. Each successful leap saw the bar raise. Usually we got it up to about mid-stomach level before capping out for the day but some could dive over the bar nearly at their chest. Now for a man so big, that's pretty unusual I'll admit, but I don't see the grace in motion there that some do.

The second half of the video was more interesting to me.

Doing rolls like with obstacles and at increasing heights that is pretty common in any Japanese jujitsu-style setting. It's actually a lot of fun, and like you said pretty easy.
Wolfgang
For what you're describing I'd look at Jujitsu, Aikido, and Hapkido. I've studied all of the above, with more time in Hapkido than the other two.

Unfortunately a lot of Aikido schools have gone the way of Tai Chi, which is to say that the teachers have no interest, and probably no experience and little training with, the martial aspect of this MARTIAL art. They are very into the spiritual and philosophical side and completely miss the martial application altogether. In post awakened 2070 this might lead to some powerful results, but isn't quite so effective in the mundane modern world.

There are also a lot of pacifists who get into the Aikido scene that try to teach that you can use Aikido without hurting an attacker. This may be true if you have 20 years of experience and are gifted to boot, but the truth is when you execute those throwing techniques properly on someone who doesn't know what's coming and doesn't know how to breakfall with the technique they are going to be seriously injured, probably a lot more so than if you just beat them into the ground.

Finally, it takes a lot more practice with Aikido to get to a applicable level of competency than it does a striking art.

Hapkido and Jujitsu are nice compromises because a good school should be teaching you how to block, punch and kick from the beginning as well as how to twist, throw and joint lock your opponent. I find them to be much easier to apply in a short time and you might gain some valuable insight into how unarmed combat works for traditions outside your own, and I don't feel that they loose out in depth with what they gain in breadth.

Besides just bad schools (which every art has in abundance) I'd look out for the blindly traditional teacher in Jujitsu or Hapkido that tells you that because these techniques worked for Samurai on the battlefield 700 years ago that they are still perfect today. You aren't in armor and it's mighty unlikely a mugger will be either. A realistic evaluation of a styles techniques in view of the modern condition has a lot of value.

I've got more to say but I have to run so I'll post more later.

--Michael
Straight Razor
i miss Aikido. i lived at an aikido dojo for a year. good times

Cain
There are three hard rules and two soft guldelines for finding a good martial arts school.

First hard rule: NEVER GO TO A SCHOOL CALLED MASTER SO-AND-SO'S ANYTHING. This includes second line advertising, as in: "Oom Young Doe, the Grandmaster 'Iron Kim' Style". Within martial arts circles, publically advertising yourself as a master shows an incredible lack of humility. Just ask yourself this: do you really want to go to someone who's so insecure, he has to tell everyone he's a master?

Second hard rule: NEVER GO TO A SCHOOL THAT WON'T LET YOU WATCH A CLASS. Do not be fooled by the "secret technique" malarkey: if their secret techniques were so special, why are they afraid you'll figure them out by watching them once?

Third hard rule: NEVER GO TO A SCHOOL WHERE YOUR PRIVATE LESSONS ARE NOT PRIVATE! (Temple Kung Fu, I'm talking to you! mad.gif ) You'd be surprised how many people fall for that one. True, private lessons are how most instructors pay the bills. But be wary of any place that seems to by pushy about taking privates; and if you show up for a lesson and find two or three other students waiting alongside you, demand your money back.

First guideline: Avoid any place that will not let you get on the floor and train with them. OK, so there's some places, such as grappling schools, that can't let you on the floor for insurance reasons. But they'll be very up front about it, and will still let you watch a class. The bottom line here is: it doesn't matter how good the school is, if you and the instructor don't mesh, you won't learn anything. And the only way to find out if you mesh well is to get out there and try it. It's your money, you deserve to get the most out of it.

Second guideline: Avoid any place that demands more than three months tuition in advance. That includes exorbitant one-year "membership fees" as well. A school has a right to demand a commitment from you, but at the same time, a lot can happen in a year. You might discover that the school isn't right for you (see hard rule #2 and guideline #1) and then you're out a huge sum of money. Three months seems to be the industry standard: you have a fair chance to try them out, and they get a fair commitment out of you.

Luckily for me, I had been developing these rules for years, ever since I experienced my first McDojo at a very young age. That's where I developed Hard Rule #2, in fact. I can't promise that these rules and guidelines will prevent you from ending up at a cult or McDojo, but they should improve your chances.
Critias
And never, ever, pay to be a super elite member of their "two year black belt club!" or anything like that. In fact, if anyone offers you that, just punch them in the throat and leave immediately.
Method
Great advice all around, especially from Wolfgang and Cain.

Wolfgang's analysis of aikido is fairly accurate. I'd say if you go the aikido route stay away from "Ki style" or "Ki society" schools and be wary of any "independent" schools. Those tend to be the spiritual/philosophical/pacifist practitioners Wolfgang is talking about. Schools affiliated with the United States Aikido Federation (USAF), the Aikido Schools of Ueshiba (ASU) or any school that certifies its yudansha (black belt ranks) through the Hombu Dojo in Japan (as the both the former organizations do) tend to have better technical standards and actually teach you how to apply martial techniques.

Another thing that can't be over emphasized is Wolfgang's point about overly strict adherence to tradition. In terms of etiquette, tradition is paramount because it teaches awareness, which is crucial to an effective martial art. But in terms of technique any good teacher will be constantly striving to improve on the basics and incorporate new and effective techniques into his or her repertoire. Modern martial arts should be a personal evolution. This is not to say that you shouldn't try to do exactly what you are being taught, though. You have to get the basics before you can start adapting your own style.

I should point out that there are some very traditional schools of Japanese martial arts (called koryu) that have the sole purpose of transmitting the ancient techniques unchanged to future generations. These are literally the arts practiced by the samurai and handed down through chosen masters to be preserved as-is forever. The people who practice these arts take this responsibility very seriously, but also realize that the arts they are practicing are not directly translatable into modern conflicts or self defense scenarios. Thats not really the point. There is also no room for self expression or development of your own personal style. You are responsible to the art, not the other way around. If martial arts schools were english departments, these guys would be the mediaeval old english experts, and what you want is the creative writing department.

Cain's rules are a pretty good guide. Note that some school offer reduced price packages if you sign up for longer periods, but they should always offer the options to start and stop whenever you want and pay dues month by month. Also his first rule is very important. Watch out for anyone that claims to teach a traditional style, but calls them self "soke". A lot of ignorant westerners think that means "grand master" but it really translates more accurately to "founder of a distinct style". They can't be "traditional" and teach a "distinct style" right? I would also add a forth rule: Be wary of any teacher that forbids you to see or participate in another style or art.

The reality is there are way too many bad schools out there, and way to many westernized schools that have lost touch with their martial roots. But the good news is that the good schools tend to converge on the same principles when it comes to effective self defense, so if you find a good one in any art or style you will do just fine.

[edit for clarity]
Straight Razor
I'm an Aikido - kempo guy my self. I need to take some judo to round my self out.
I have had some really good instructors. From my Aikido teacher, who fancied him self a samurai borne too late. to my kempo instructor that was one of Ed Parker's disciples. they were both pretty strange people, but thew had the knowledge and were eager to teach.

And i had some really bad instructors. One aikido-ka allowed no talking in the dojo, at all... not even the instructor. that made it impossible to learn, or get feedback. A skilled, and well-meaning Kempo instructor that mixed clinical retards in with normal classes. And a kotoshogan school where you could black belt in 8mo

Running a dojo is a business, it is how instructors feed them self's. But be aware that many instructors are just after the money. they teach you in ways that are hard to learn and grow from so that you have to study with them for years and years.

A good instructor should be able to get you to you first don in about two years if you really want it, and your there 3 days a week. But remember the first black belt just means you know enough to really start learning the art.
Cain
QUOTE
I have had some really good instructors. From my Aikido teacher, who fancied him self a samurai borne too late. to my kempo instructor that was one of Ed Parker's disciples. they were both pretty strange people, but thew had the knowledge and were eager to teach.

Out of curiosity, which one of Ed Parker's disciples? Parker only handed out a hundred or so black belts in his lifetime, and they're very well documented. I've met several, and I'm wondering if he's one I know of.
Straight Razor
my instructor's name was Jim (i'm sorry but his last name escapes me)
he was belted by Chuck Sullivan.
but he studied at both Sullivan and Parkers.
he got his first don right after the parker / tracy split still bad blood there.

Jim is a really great guy. I wish i could clear out my schedule to go train with him more. fighting that man is like fighting a falling brick wall.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Straight Razor)
my instructor's name was Jim (i'm sorry but his last name escapes me)
he was belted by Chuck Sullivan.
but he studied at both Sullivan and Parkers.
he got his first don right after the parker / tracy split still bad blood there.

Jim is a really great guy. I wish i could clear out my schedule to go train with him more. fighting that man is like fighting a falling brick wall.

Bullshido.net has the "Moons of Jupiter" story. Basically, there was one very weird man claiming to teach aikido and as part of this he promised one student that they would metaphysically journey to the "moons of jupiter".
Straight Razor
wow could you link that article.

jim doesn't promise anything like that. and he has plenty of photos, videos, and paperwork to back up his store.
Cain
QUOTE (Straight Razor)
my instructor's name was Jim (i'm sorry but his last name escapes me)
he was belted by Chuck Sullivan.
but he studied at both Sullivan and Parkers.
he got his first don right after the parker / tracy split still bad blood there.

Jim is a really great guy. I wish i could clear out my schedule to go train with him more. fighting that man is like fighting a falling brick wall.

I'm familiar with Chuck Sullivan, by reputation at least. But you're right, the Parker/Tracy split was nasty, and some of the repercussions exist to this day. Not to disparage him, but technically your instructor qualifies as a Sullivan student who trained with Parker. I know many people who got to train some with Parker, and they're quite lucky; but that doesn't make them a Parker disciple. Unfortunately, many of the Parker original students are up to their ears in IKKA politics.

I'm not so big on traditional martial arts, most of my studies have been nontraditional arts and self-defense. But I do know one or two things about American Kenpo. If you want to avoid a Kenpo McDojo, check out his lineage and rank. It's very easy to track someone's black belt family tree back to Ed Parker; so if someone's background doesn't check out, back away very quickly. Temple Kung Fu is an example of this; their "grandmaster" Simon claims to have taught at a Parker school, and was awarded an honorary 10th-degree belt. Natch, there's no record of this anywhere, and no student can recall him at all.

Oh, and if someone says he got a 10th-degree belt from Ed Parker, laugh in his face. Ed Parker *never* handed out a 10th degree; while he was alive, he was the 10th degree. Every existing 10th degree got their ranking either by assuming it or being voted in, after Parker passed away.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Straight Razor)
wow could you link that article.

jim doesn't promise anything like that. and he has plenty of photos, videos, and paperwork to back up his store.
QUOTE

SLJ's topic on Ashida Kim's flowering kiddie porn empire reminded me of s story that needs sharing with all of Bullshido . . .


In college, I had a friend who we will call Jack. Jack was a cool guy and had done WT for a long time, but had stopped once he moved to go to school. Looking for an MA to start, he met this guy named Robert who said he was an "Akido Master". Now I don't know crap about Akido, but I knew it involved wrist locks, falls, and meditation. At the time I was doing TKD and thought I was invincible, so I declined his offer to train with them.

Fast forward a few months . . .

I ran into Jack at a party and asked how he liked his Akido. He just took a big swig of his drink, then turned very pale and stared at me. I was getting a bit uncomfortable, since I thought we were tight and the feeling I had somehow pissed him off. Finally he just told me to follow him out on the balcony so we could talk.

It turns out his first month of "Akido" was nothing but meditation in a dark room with burning incense . Master Robert said they needed it to prepare for the physically demanding tasks ahead. After "class" one day, Jack asked Robert when they were going to do the martial part.

Jack then stopped his story and looked like he was about to puke. I was like, "You don't have to tell me if you don't want to man." But no, he wanted to finish. It seems Robert told him in order to take the next step in his training, they would need to shower naked together. But that was okay, since shortly thereafter they would take a trip to the moons of Jupiter together and all would be revealed.

Needless to say, that was Jack's last day under Robert's "instruction". He had that not-so-fresh-feeling for a few months afterward, and ran away whenever he saw Robert on campus.

Robert kept going to that university long after Jack and I left. At one point the Akido master caught up to me in a class we shared, and started to talk about martial arts (somehow he knew I did BJJ at that point). He told me about the "devastating offensive" capabilities of Akido and how it also involved swords. Particuarly HIS sword I imagine. Anyway, I turned down his enthusiastic invites and he eventually went away.

As an endnote, let me just say I have nothing against Akido. I have never tried it. But I don't think it involves swords or taking naked showers or going to the moons of Jupiter.

-------------

UPDATE - from 9-18-2003 post

I just showed this page to Jack's old girlfriend, and she told me there was a couple of things that Jack didn't share with me.

1. The students actually medidated naked.

2. They also cleaned Roberts house naked as well.

Now I can see why Jack got so upset. He obviously had sexual issues of his own in order to progress this far in Robert's "Akido program".
QUOTE

Oh man, this reminds me of a story I just HAVE to tell.

In college, I had a friend who we will call Jack. Jack was a cool guy and had done WT for a long time, but had stopped once he moved to go to school. Looking for an MA to start, he met this guy named Robert who said he was an "Akido Master". Now I don't know crap about Akido, but I knew it involved wrist locks, falls, and meditation. At the time I was doing TKD and thought I was invincible, so I declined his offer to train with them.

Fast forward a few months . . .

I ran into Jack at a party and asked how he liked his Akido. He just took a big swig of his drink, then turned very pale and stared at me. I was getting a bit uncomfortable, since I thought we were tight and the feeling I had somehow pissed him off. Finally he just told me to follow him out on the balcony so we could talk.

It turns out his first month of "Akido" was nothing but meditation in a dark room with burning incense . Master Robert said they needed it to prepare for the physically demanding tasks ahead. After "class" one day, Jack asked Robert when they were going to do the martial part.

Jack then stopped his story and looked like he was about to puke. I was like, "You don't have to tell me if you don't want to man." But no, he wanted to finish. It seems Robert told him in order to take the next step in his training, they would need to shower naked together. But that was okay, since shortly thereafter they would take a trip to the moons of Jupiter together and all would be revealed.

Needless to say, that was Jack's last day under Robert's "instruction". He had that not-so-fresh-feeling for a few months afterward, and ran away whenever he saw Robert on campus.

Robert kept going to that university long after Jack and I left. At one point the Akido master caught up to me in a class we shared, and started to talk about martial arts (somehow he knew I did BJJ at that point). He told me about the "devastating offensive" capabilities of Akido and how it also involved swords. Particuarly his sword I imagine. Anyway, I blew him off and he went away.

As an endnote, let me just say I have nothing against Akido. I have never tried it. But I don't think it involves swords or taking naked showers or going to the moons of Jupiter.
hyzmarca
The funny thing is that, due to the nature of Magic in Shadowrun, an Akido Master could, with some spirit bargaining, take his students on a naked metaphysical journey to the moons of Jupiter and an adept really could learn the Dim Mak from Doctor Grandmaster [Asian Sounding Name]'s matrix classes.
Critias
Wouldn't background count screw up the naked field trip to Jupiter's moons?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Critias @ Jan 26 2008, 08:03 AM)
Wouldn't background count screw up the naked field trip to Jupiter's moons?

I was thinking Astral Quest, which is just as good if not better. But, sufficiently powerful Astral Armor should protect against background count damage (Sufficiently Powerful being Force 20 or so). Of course, a Virtuoso Adept could just sing all the way there and replace Space's normal background count with one aspected toward himself.
Critias
Fair enough.

...it still has nothing to do with Aikido, but it's an interesting travel possibility. wink.gif
Zhan Shi
OK, so thread necromancy is looked down upon. But in my search, I've encountered some resources which may prove to be of interest and/or amusement to the Dumpshock community at large, and which relate directly to the above discussion. Enjoy.

McDojo FAQ

McDojo Wiki

McDojo TV commercial

Asia's Bullshido Martial Arts Instruction VideoBullshido.net Karate Sucks Month 2007

Karate Sucks, Director's Cut (Even more funny)

EDIT: bleh, Karate Sucks 2007 won't play. Just search for it on youtube.
Method
QUOTE (Zhan Shi @ Apr 2 2008, 08:54 PM) *
Wow...
b1ffov3rfl0w
QUOTE (Method @ Jan 25 2008, 02:18 AM) *
Watch out for anyone that claims to teach a traditional style, but calls them self "soke". A lot of ignorant westerners think that means "grand master" but it really translates more accurately to "founder of a distinct style". They can't be "traditional" and teach a "distinct style" right?


What if he's really, really old?
Method
You should probably watch out for anyone thats really, really old too.
Wounded Ronin
Yeah, the Bullshido Your Martial Art Sucks videos are hilarious. The karate one is good, but I think that the taekwondo one is epic. These can all be found by looking at BullshidoPhrost's profile on YouTube. There's also a video recording of Bill Duff getting KTFO by a TKD BB.
nathanross
ROTFL! rotfl.gif

WOW! Yeah, the Bushido.net sucks videos are great! I personally like the karate more though. The tae kwon do had too many captions, the karate kind of spoke for itself.

Nice to see there are some martial artists on the forums. I've always been wary due to the legal repercussions of actually using it once you have formally learned it. I'm all for independent study though.
Zhan Shi
I was speaking earlier about tournamnet competition vs. self defense. David James (Shihan of VAJ) does a good job of explaining the difference. Although I can't speak as to the efficacy of the techniques, being untrained, this is the general attitude I was thinking of...learning to defend myself against an assailant, versus learning to fight (as in MMA, for example). Watch David James' "10 Commandments of Self Defense" here.

EDIT: also, check out youtube videos by the user defenseinstitute
Zhan Shi
To those who doubt MMA's effectiveness in a street fight, I suggest you watch this. Enjoy. biggrin.gif

www.comegetyousome.com/video/18781/clip-about-mma-and-the-streets.html
Wounded Ronin
The only martial art where I have seen multiple video clips of it "working" versus multiple opponents on the street is boxing. I think this is because when there are multiple attackers one of the very few viable strategies is to go at them with so much aggression and speedy continous attacks that you get them mentally off balance.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Zhan Shi @ Feb 3 2009, 08:00 PM) *
To those who doubt MMA's effectiveness in a street fight, I suggest you watch this. Enjoy. biggrin.gif

www.comegetyousome.com/video/18781/clip-about-mma-and-the-streets.html


That guy makes me think of Van Damme. spin.gif
Jonnysan
Omae, this thread makes me want to start practicing again. Not Aikido though. I think if I went around again I would want something a little more directly oriented towards practical/effective techniques. Aikido became a bit too idealized for me. I can see the practical aspects, but there are plenty of techniques in Aikido that you just would not use in a street environment. Or, well, if you did, then I pity you. And to be honest, if you’re training for a possible encounter in a dark alley, then you don’t want to be incorporating breath throws into your training regiment because the shit goes down by muscle memory. If you try a Kokyunaga on a guy with a knife, well, I hope you’re a beast.

When I was practicing in VA one of the Yudansha took me under his wing. Those were my best Aikido experiences. Probably because he was a cop and our after-hours 'practice sessions' would involve something like "Ok, choke me out from behind and pretend you're a crackhead, I gotta see how to get out of this--a friend on the force got in this situation and had to pull his gun" which would eventually degenerate into a Brazilian Ju-jitsu-esque brawl (that he always won). lol, I just remembered the time I went into work with a huge bitemark on my arm, from, duh, where he had bitten the shit out of me. I worked with kids that had autism and I was the only male employee at this small, private school so all my co-workers were a bit confused as to why I had an immaculate pattern of teeth on my forearm. My girlfriend was none-too-pleased with the numerous bruises he left, either. But I, in my youthful exuberance, enjoyed it.

Anyways, happy beer-induced digression aside, I actually attended a seminar with Yamada Sensei. He was pretty amazing. This was, oh, six or seven years ago maybe? I don't know, it was in Dallas. Aikido was fun, and Zhan Shi, at first I thought like you did. In my defense, I was 17 when I started. You know, I wanted to be able to defend myself, but not hurt people, and have my martial art have some sort of philosophical implication that I could guide myself with. Well, I'm over that now. I think if I take something else now I'll just go for the "it puts people on the ground fast" aspect. Something like Krav Mega. Aikido was cool, and it taught me some neat things. But honestly, I'm non-violent by nature. So if I get into a situation where violence is required, I think my natural inclination towards politeness needs to be counterbalanced by breaking faces.

I'm going to research martial arts again now. Any fun suggestions? I'm partial to joint-locks, for instance. I need to find a place that I can work in between thesis-writing and soccer practice.

Oh, and Zhan Shi, thanks for this thread. Brought back good memories.
ruff0126
If you can find one that will teach out side of the corps a MCMAP(marine corps martialo arts) instructor will show you how to straight up put people down. No holds bar no rules kill a mo fo is their specialty.
InfinityzeN
That's just Combatives. The Army and the Marine Corps jointed develop and certify instructors for it. If you go to the advanced schools, you'll have a mix of Army and MC instructors.

But yea, their specialty is killing/disabling the target as quick and brutally as possible.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Feb 3 2009, 07:59 PM) *
The only martial art where I have seen multiple video clips of it "working" versus multiple opponents on the street is boxing. I think this is because when there are multiple attackers one of the very few viable strategies is to go at them with so much aggression and speedy continous attacks that you get them mentally off balance.
The trick with multiple opponents is to fight as few at a time as you can ... standing in the middle just gets you in trouble. There's a lot that goes into it, we'd often practice fighting multiple persons at once to help build "reactions" to these types of situations. Of course learning solid technique is very important because at full speed in a real situation you don't have time to think about it, it's got to be second nature.
Faelan
The trick to multiple opponents is to be consistently moving, and taking advantage at everything that presents itself. On the surface this appears as naked aggression, but there is more to it. Boxing is great if you want to break your hand, and no I am not kidding about that. Always strike soft parts this loosens things up so you can do the really effective stuff, throw in some locks, throws, and bone breaking techniques then you are in business. The most important thing though is making sure you are willing to win the fight and fully accepting that to win every hit has to count. Every movement must count. By counting I mean it will inflict serious, potentially long term damage to another human being. If you can't learn that you are better off calling 911, because otherwise someone will be calling 911 to cart you to the hospital.

My principle background was as an HTH Combat Instructor in the USMC, followed by dabbling in many different martial arts. Most arts have something to teach you, but you must be capable of removing the ineffective garbage from the little bits of priceless lore. Then you can take those and form a solid basis of what works for you.
Gawdzilla
QUOTE (DMFubar @ Jan 23 2008, 07:33 AM) *
From what I have read, the systems are similar, though Chin-Na is often a subsystem of other styles (White Crane, Eagle Claw, etc.) and includes join locks, throws, and to a greater extent that jujitsu, pressure point strikes.


Chin-Na is a word that describes a whole canon of techniques, common to Tai Chi as well as most forms of Kung Fu, that involve joint locking, pressure point strikes, and such. It could be considered a martial art on it's own, although it is more like a library of techniques from which other martial arts borrow, add, or subtract (I learned a little when I was taking Choi li Fut). It is also generally acknowledged to form the underpinnings of, or at least have strongly influenced the development of similar Japanese arts such as Jujutsu, Judo and Aikido.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Faelan @ Feb 4 2009, 09:18 PM) *
The trick to multiple opponents is to be consistently moving, and taking advantage at everything that presents itself. On the surface this appears as naked aggression, but there is more to it. Boxing is great if you want to break your hand, and no I am not kidding about that. Always strike soft parts this loosens things up so you can do the really effective stuff, throw in some locks, throws, and bone breaking techniques then you are in business. The most important thing though is making sure you are willing to win the fight and fully accepting that to win every hit has to count. Every movement must count. By counting I mean it will inflict serious, potentially long term damage to another human being. If you can't learn that you are better off calling 911, because otherwise someone will be calling 911 to cart you to the hospital.

My principle background was as an HTH Combat Instructor in the USMC, followed by dabbling in many different martial arts. Most arts have something to teach you, but you must be capable of removing the ineffective garbage from the little bits of priceless lore. Then you can take those and form a solid basis of what works for you.


A long time ago, my first "serious" martial arts instructor had also been a Marine and the stuff he taught was pretty much exactly as you describe.

I feel that the doctrine is especially sound against opponents who don't "know" exactly what you're about to do, so they won't be able to quickly get out of your locks and bone breakers. However, against opponents who have grappling reflexes, going straight to the big bone breakers is unlikely to work if they're anything but totally surprised by your attack.

So, for example, let's say that I walked into a judo dojo "China Connection" style and proceeded to demand that the judoka present eat a paper sign with kanji saying "Sick Man Of Asia". If I subsequently tried to go for quick shoulder breaks, standing neck breakers, and head throws on all the judoka at once, probably they'd just defend successfully against my attacks, swarm in, drag me down, and they'd make me eat the sign instead. This would be because they have all the grappling reflexes and a quick path to the big break is really unlikely to work.

(Of course, any time you're unarmed and swarmed by 30 enraged judo players you're probably screwed. But I hope my main idea was understandable and entertainingly presented.)
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Faelan @ Feb 4 2009, 05:18 PM) *
The trick to multiple opponents is to be consistently moving, and taking advantage at everything that presents itself. On the surface this appears as naked aggression, but there is more to it. Boxing is great if you want to break your hand, and no I am not kidding about that. Always strike soft parts this loosens things up so you can do the really effective stuff, throw in some locks, throws, and bone breaking techniques then you are in business. The most important thing though is making sure you are willing to win the fight and fully accepting that to win every hit has to count. Every movement must count. By counting I mean it will inflict serious, potentially long term damage to another human being. If you can't learn that you are better off calling 911, because otherwise someone will be calling 911 to cart you to the hospital.
Well said!
Method
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Feb 4 2009, 08:36 PM) *
Of course, any time you're unarmed and swarmed by 30 enraged judo players you're probably screwed.

Come on Wounded Ronin!! I expect more than that from you of all people!! grinbig.gif

As to the effectiveness of aikido, I think people need to understand that the martial application of the techniques is deeply hidden and requires diligent training to fully realize. Anybody can walk into a school that teaches MCMAP and learn to murder faces in a few short weeks (thats kind of the point). But I guarantee you that someone like Yamada sensei or Chiba sensei has a profound understanding of the nature of human conflict and the realities of life-or-death combat that you may or may not get as a civilian or a POG training in MCMAP (depending on where and how you are forced to use it). Does that make aikido the best choice for "Effective Self-defense" ™? Not by any stretch of the imagination. But thats not the point of aikido training...

To paraphrase another great aikido teacher: "If you just want to learn how to kill people, go buy a gun. Its a lot faster."
ornot
It was my understanding that one of the important parts to notice in Aikido is the 'do' bit, indicating that it is to be pursued as an art, not a means to become Ultra Killy McKillkill.

I've dabbled in martial arts a little, principally in an attempt to improve my flexibility, balance, co-ordination, and reflexes. If I wanted to hurt people I'm pretty sure I could get plenty of hands on practice in town on a Saturday night. A big chunk of it is a willingness to hurt people. However, I'm conditioned to be non-violent because I'm a functioning member of modern society, y'know?

I reckon it's important that you take the opportunity to sit in on a training session before taking up a martial art, and if you can take part then do so. That way you can determine whether the sensei/sifu/master or whatever is someone you can trust, and who will respect your reasons for pursuing his training, whether or not he shares them. Some instructors can be total jerks, and however talented or skilled they might be, do you really want to pay them to yell at you, or denigrate you? Personally, if I wanted that I'd join the army. Then I'd even be getting paid!
assante
In the spirit of the videos posted above: When you`re in a real fight, beware the fancy moves...

ornot
Well... Ya gotta admire the showmanship biggrin.gif
Rad
Meh, Capoeira was designed from the beginning as something other than a practical way to fight--more like counting coo or having a dance-off.

Fewer movements + greater efficiency = better, as a general rule
Adarael
QUOTE (Cain @ Jan 24 2008, 08:09 PM) *
First hard rule: NEVER GO TO A SCHOOL CALLED MASTER SO-AND-SO'S ANYTHING. This includes second line advertising, as in: "Oom Young Doe, the Grandmaster 'Iron Kim' Style". Within martial arts circles, publically advertising yourself as a master shows an incredible lack of humility. Just ask yourself this: do you really want to go to someone who's so insecure, he has to tell everyone he's a master?


The Oom Yung Doe place down the road from my house closed about a month ago. I was always wary of them because of the "omg flying kickz" pictures in their window. I'm glad to see my suspicion confirmed.
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