Cyber eyes are great for helping with targeting the corp security goons bad guys.

As for Kyoto, I figured it out, but still wanted everyone to know that I acknowledge the fact I was wrong... though I do have another idea, but won't put it here until I get an answer. If I think it works this way then I've got a new piece of 'ware for the "Gotta squeeze this in the 1.0 Essence I'm using" list

I say they overlap, they don't stack. So a mage with 1 level of synaptic booster gets 2 passes. If he casts increase reflexes to get one extra pass his number of passes doesn't change. If he casts it to get 2 extra passes, his is at a total of 3 passes, not 4.
I'm pretty sure that's how it's supposed to work.

Way back on page 1, this issue was raised. When I was looking into this and other vision modifiers, I found this:

BBB 173:


However, the visibility modifier table doesn't list any modifiers for range at all. Maybe the range doesn't actually matter for spellcasting?

As for the rest of the cybereyes for mages, I have the following table. First, though, let me explain what the numbers mean. The numbers given are the effective bonus of having the cyberware. In other words, assume that the negative modifiers for unaided vision are the default, and that offsetting this negative modifier is an "effective bonus." It might not make sense to some people that way, but it works for me. Here's that table:



This shows that for a human, getting full cybereyes is probably a good idea. For an ork or an elf, it might be better just to carry a flashlight to offset the (probably somewhat rare) full darkness penalty. Trolls and dwarves really don't gain much by buying cybereyes, although "partial light" is probably one of the most common modifiers in shadowrun.

Also, keep in mind that pretty much every other feature you can get in cybereyes can still be used by mages without spending the essence via contact lenses, goggles, etc. Only those mods that offset vision penalties need to be paid for by essence! (Of course, there are other advantages to cybereyes -- 100% availability, no gear to loose / break, etc. to consider as well.)

'Twas late, and I had written this absolutely massive response to your posts ... and then read the rest of the thread to find Synner had already answered. That was the best edit I could come up with at the time.

I was about to quote you and point you to Synner's post when it changed

Wouldn't be the first time I've been caught mid-edit.

Inline w/ the original point of the thread....

Has anyone considered "Biocompatibility" from augmentation as a way to up the limit on bio/cyberware? I'd think the 10BP is cheap compared to the 10BP to raise magic yet again from an extra fraction of lost essence. (On a related note.. best 2 essence worth of cyber for adepts would also be a fun thread to read!).

Is there any bio/cyberware which is marginal enough to be worth the extra 10BP and the equipment cost?




Well I was about to raise that I thought using binoculars gave a -2 dice pool penalty, but I can't find that anywhere... so unless someone else knows the page that's null and void.

Only bit I could find was a -3 dice pool for using the myomeric rope, mage sight goggles, security system etc. (which I'd assume also applies to cheap tricks I like to use like just carrying a simple mirror to target things people don't think I'm looking at or around corners).

I can see Biocomp(Bioware) if you want to use your essence for key bioware only. It is monetary better than going for betaware.

As the munchkin in me demands a mentor spirit and the astral chameleon quality, the decision is not easy.

I went with Biocompatability and astral chameleon for my combat mage's positive qualities.

For the adept:
- synaptic accelerators 2
- hyperthyroid gland, cybereyes 3, cyberears 1
- Muscle Toner 4 alpha, Reaction Enhancer 2

All pretty good, even if the eyes and ears will not be everyones thing-to-do. Adepts should consider Biocompatibility(Bioware), if doing all of the above is in the stars.

Hmm, I don't think I'm familiar enough with the rules to make a recommendation--I have been trying to do a similar thing with a technomancer though.

The idea was for a smuggler/rigger type character, who would steal and rig vehicles with his technomancer abilities. I wanted to give him a Sleep Regulator (for those long hauls across the border), Bone Density 2 (for when you wrap that Eurocar around a telephone pole), and Synaptic Booster 2 (just as fast in the meat as in VR)--for a total of 1.75 essence.

I'm having a hell of a time with it though, since losing two points of resonance kills your living persona attributes and complex form maximums. I don't mind having a weak signal rating--most of the time he's going to be in physical contact with the vehicle he's hacking anyway--but with everything else being brought down it's becoming way too expensive in both BP and nuyen.

It'd be a lot easier to just go with an implanted commlink instead, but I really liked the "Ares transporter finds out he's a technomancer after getting the job-standard implants and hosing his resonance" angle I was going for with this guy...

This guy is a Technomancer, not a street sammy. You don't need the level 2 synaptic booster. Level 1 should be all that you need.

-------------------------------------------------------

Now I've got an interesting question for everyone. Since Synner didn't get back to me on this and it's been almost a week, I thought that I would throw this out:

The Bioware device of Echolocation allows the person it's implanted (with the aid of a vocal range enhancer and hearing enhancement... both bioware systems) into to have a biological version of an Ultrasound system. Would this allow a person to target a mana spell? This entire setup is biological in origin.

I wouldn't give a Technomancer any ware, it chokes resonance and everything you do depends on it...

And no, it wouldn't...
It's not the biological aspect that makes it work, it's the "magical" link vision gives...
Or at least that's what I think...

Actually, with a Technomancer, you can give them .99 essence worth of 'ware and they would still not drop a single point of Resonance.

As for the Ultrasound question. The reason that Radar and Ultrasound system were shot down for not making a magic link was because there was tech interpreting the signal and "translating" it into vision. With Echolocation, it's all biology.

This is incorrect!

Well, yes, it is all biology, but it is still translating something that is not vision into vision...
Anyway, you may very well be correct, I just wouldn't allow it unless it was erratad in...

And what Fortune said to that other thing...

Man, that'd be sweet, though. You can pack a lot of awesome into .99 Essence for any given combat mage or adept.

I was going to give a flat out negative answer to this, but then didn't want Synner to come in and correct me on the minute chance I am wrong. As it is, now that I have commented, I will go on record as saying the Echolocation (just like Radar and Ultrasound) does not meet the LOS requirements for spellcasting.

Heh, as this thread has shown!

And yeah, the reason you can't use an echolocation module is it's not actually vision; it's just really good hearing being interpreted as vision (and in fact may not be even that; echolocation is just be a boost to a sense that humans already have, though fairly weak in most normal humans). For whatever reason, Line of Sight, and thus vision, is the key factor for spellcasting; you can't target someone just because you hear them cough from around a corner, or you smell his aftershave, so by the same token Echolocation just doesn't work.

Actually, page 232 of the SR4 core rule book:


That to me means, that if I have 5.01 Essence that means I can have 6 Resonance because 5.01 rounds up to 6.




OK, why is that? I can understand that Radar and Cyberware Ultrasound Sensors are translating the signal into something the metahuman mind can use. The Echolocation bioware unit just enhances what's already there (to the level of a Bat, but still it's just an enhancement). This is from page 63 of Augmentation:

Yes, you take the reduction, 0.99 in this case, and round up to the nearest whole number, 1 in this case...

And the second thing, your hearing is already there, but no matter how you improve upon it, you will _never_ be able to target magic with it...
Now, if you can prove that echolocation is vision (which it isn't because blind people can do it), then I will agree with you...

As ArkonC says, it is the reduction that is rounded up. Even a lowly datajack, costing .01 Essence, would reduce a magician's Magic or a Technomancer's Resonance by 1 whole point, as the 'reductions from Essence due to cyberware and/or bioware implants' is rounded up to 1.0.

OK... that's embarrassing. Sorry about that. The character generator that I use thinks the same way that I did. I can most certainly concede that I was dead wrong about that.



Now THIS will be easy! Page 64 of Augmentation:



The form of sight would like that in the Daredevil movie.

It's not your Essence score that is rounded up to the nearest whole number. It is the Essence reduction that is rounded up to the nearest whole number. .99 worth of cyberware? 1 essence. .01 worth of cyberware? Still 1 essence.


Because Echolocation isn't enhancing sight. It's enhancing hearing. Spells require line of sight to work. You can't sniff someone out for spellcasting, you can't hear someone for spellcasting, you can't taste someone for spellcasting. You see them.

It's not that hard a concept, really. Daredevil does not see. That's why he's called "a blind person." Daredevil still uses other tricks (like ultrasound, radar, etc) to know where people are so he can punch them, kick them, and hit them with escrima sticks, yes. But he does not see them, which is why you never see him cast any spells at them.

Well, because he can't see them, and because he's not a mage.

But Synner himself said ultrasound is not vision and does not qualify, so you've just proven yourself wrong...

That was because he said that the Tech that translated the Radar signal or the ultrasound signal into sight breaks the mystic link... here's the EXACT quote from page 4 of this thread:



Echolocation enhances a sense that metahumans already have, but don't use. Also with this bioware there is no computer to "generated composite representations of the feedback from non-visual sensor arrays".




Yup, I concede that I was completely screwed up on that.

I shall use your nice over the top formating for this:

q.e.d.
Or rather
Q.E.D.

I only went with the "over the top formating" to highlight my point. As for your Q.E.D., please point out where a biological version (without even a single transistor) of Ultrasound would not work based on Synner's own statement... which I was so kind as to provide in my previous post.

The key part wasn't the tech, KCKitsune. If it were, then cybereyes, which use trid cameras to relay visual information along the optic nerve, would also be ineligible to provide LOS. You can use tech to grant you vision, and use that vision to target, so long as the tech has been paid for with essence.

The point is that the information is not visual. Sound, ultra or not, is not vision. Radar is not vision (though it is fairly close). Something that would allow you to smell or taste in three dimensions is not vision. Thus you can't target using them.

Jesus Fucking Christ...

Now to make it clear, I highlighted visual as in seeing, as in eyes, as in sight...

Echolocation is not sight, it is sound, sound is hearing, hearing is not seeing, not seeing is no line of sight...
Now to refute your argument that is was the tech that was the problem, if tech was the problem, cybereyes would also not work...
The problem is that it is not visual, hence no line of sight, I now refer you to "Step 3" quoted from the rulebook...
Also, I did prove it be quoting him, as you can see, in my previous post, I just cut a bit out of what Synner had said and highlighted the important part...
If you still don't believe me, PM Synner and he will confirm that I am right.

C´mon, you can´t be serious! Nor ultrasound nor radar gives you line of sight to a target: they are not vision enhancers, it´s not that difficult to understand...

Though you´re more than welcomed to houserule this thingy (as well as any other) any way you like, just (please) don´t insist on pushing it into others (that´s not kind).

If you´re not GMing your game and have a nice character concept built around all this "ultrasound is vision" issue, you shouldn´t try to convince your GM you´re right and everybody else is wrong: just ask him nicely if an exception could be made for said character (if he deserves it, you may be allowed the exception).

I hope not having been to harsh, but you keep insisting on something that no one elses agree on and has NOTHING to do with this thread.

KC, why is it you can't grasp (or even refute, or in any way respond to or acknowledge) post after post explaining the five basic senses to you, and that only sight provides line of sight for spellcasting?

Because the way that this is written in the rules it does provide a form of sight.

-------------------------------

@ArkonC... cute, but still doesn't answer the fact that the echolocation bioware unit allows it to function as a biological ultrasound system. Ultrasound systems allow you to "see" using sound rather than visible light, much like thermographic vision allows you to "see" heat. You highlighted the visual, but completely ignored the fact that it is a "computer generated composite representations of the feedback from non-visual sensor arrays" that breaks the mystic link.

@Everyone: If being blind prevents you from targeting a spell, then how do Ghouls target someone? I know what you're going to say: "You F***ing idiot, they are seeing your astral aura and can target you that way!" Well, that's not a visual means of targeting because Ghouls are blind.

Blind ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindness )


Therefore (Q.E.D ) A Ghoul Mage is a paradox... a contradiction... impossible... but wait, there ARE Ghoul Mages. They just see in a different way... much like a person with this bioware unit can "see" sound. It's much like how we see light. Our brains translate the visual light into an image.

-----------------------------

If Synner says that if Echolocation doesn't allow targeting of a spell then I'll drop it... just like I did with the Radar Sense.

I would consequently have to go yes for bioware echolocation. As it is not computer-generated at all; it enhances the Metahuman body with an additional sense, a sense which is not digitized.

I would also posit that there are cyber/bio combinations available to take raw radar input and translate it into an additional biological sense that a Magician could use. Of course, these would be hugely expensive and probably only available if you chug a whole lot of Wuxing corporate cock.

Sorry Shadow, Synner said that Cyberware Radar and Ultrasound systems can not be used to target a spell. I don't agree with it, but when Synner said it didn't allow it... well he's The Word^TM when it comes to Shadowrun

You fucking idiot, they are seeing your astral aura and can target you that way.

Ok, this is starting to get on my nerves . You were already oficially smacked down on the radar thingy and now try the ultrasound angle??? I can feel your GM´s pain...

As for the ghouls "example": for Christ´s sake, you are really making an ass of yourself. What the fuck are you gonna do when Synner or any other "official" source finally shows down and smaks you down (again)? I really would hate being in your shoes at that time.

ShadowDragon8685: Please don´t. Just... don´t. The problem here has nothing to do with the kind of technology being used to achieve the effect: if the effect acomplished is anyother than a true visual enhancement (not a similar one or even an analogous one) then it doesn´t help for spell targeting.

Jesus, this is getting so stupid that I feel an idiot just for replying...

Uh, Jester, I didn't get "smacked down" Synner explained it to us and I accepted it. Now, with the quote that Synner said on page 4 of this thread, and how the Echolocation bioware is worded in Augmentation, I believe that it will give you the ability to target someone with spells.

@Critias & Jester... you still didn't explain on how a Ghoul can target someone when he is blind. Astral sight isn't visual sight. Heck you can blindfold a Ghoul and he can still zap you with a spell... please explain how that works. Please explain on how that is different than someone using ultrasonic waves bouncing off an object to see a person. Please explain the difference between light bouncing off an object and returning to the viewer's eyes and the person's brain forming an image and ultrasonic waves bouncing off an object, returning to the viewer and his Echolocation/hearing enhancement bioware mods helping his brain forming an image.

Ultrasound, like radar and sonar, is not visual. It's not a visual image at all. It's a hearing modification. I don't care how good your ears are, you can not see with them. It's called line of sight for a reason. That reason is very specific -- you need to see your target.

Not hear (no matter how well). Not taste, or smell. Not guess. To target a direct spell (not just saturate an area with fireballs or something), you need to see your target. You've quoted that exact line of text multiple times, but you don't seem to be capable of wrapping your head around it. See. SEE.

Ghouls are a unique case in that they are permanently viewing things on the astral. They are "blind" in that they cannot see day-to-day nonsense going on, can't tell if you're wearing a red or blue shirt, and have milky white eyes. They are not blind on the astral, however. They can see auras. They still require line of sight just like any other astrally active mage, however (can't cast a spell at someone behind them, can't cast a spell at a target behind full cover that blocks their view, etc). They don't use their super keen sense of smell, though, to physically target opponents on the physical plane with a spell. They use their astral sight, just like any other astrally perceiving mage would have to do.

Ultrasound is not a sight modifier. Radar sense is not a sight modifier. Echolocation is not a sight modifier. Cats eyes bioware? Sight modifier. Troll's natural thermovision? Sight modifier. Cyberoptics with any goodies attached? Sight modifiers. There are augmentions that let you know where bad people are so that you can shoot them, punch them, or throw grenades at them. Ultrasound, radar sense, and echolocation are all really cool for that. They let you know where people are, but they do not let you see them. Please, grasp that distinction.

When walking through my house in the dark, I might (depending on how recently my wife went insane and felt like rearranging the place) know where my couch is. If I got a wild hair up my ass, I could get up in the middle of the night, walk into my living room, and empty my AK into my couch because I have an idea of where it is in that room, even with all the lights off. If I wanted to be a dick about it, I could even walk right up to my couch and kick it, just to make sure I knew right where it was. In fact, maybe stubbing my toe on it is why I'd want to unload my AK into it in the first place. I could have a good enough idea of where it is to blast it with a Kalishnikov without seeing it.

That's what some cyberware and bioware lets you do. Know where things are (with descriptors, much like in the Daredevil movie and comics, we as humans associate falsely with "sight" out of convenience, mostly because it's hard to tell a good story on a blank page of a comic book or a pitch black screen in a movie theatre) well enough to shoot it or stab it or flip it off. But they do not let you SEE it, the way you must (directly) in order to cast a spell at it.

Imagine you are a cool guy in the Navy. Whee! You get a sailor suit, and everything. You work the radar somewhere. It's nice radar, just like we all see in the movies. It goes "ping!" and a little bar waves in a circle around your monitor, and you get little blips. You can even kind of tell from the pings and the blips and the little bar how far away something is. You're running your radar station in the middle of horrible pea-soup fog. It tells you there are planes coming in. You kind of know where those planes are...but you can't see them, can you? The fog is too thick. You could not whip out a camera and take a photograph of them (even if you weren't down in the belly of the ship, working your radar screen) because they are too thick in the fog for you to see. You know where they are with your high-end radar thingie, you might even know how high off the ground they are, you might even know right where to shoot a missile at them.

But you could not stand on the deck with a camera and take a picture, because you cannot see them.

No matter how sexy cyberears are, you can't target a spell with them. No matter how souped up with bioware your sense of smell is, you can't target a spell with it. No matter how expert you with the active skill "taste stuff," you can't target a spell with it. There are five human senses. Sight is the one required for line of sight (what a weird coincidence). The other senses, augmented properly, might be enough for someone (say, a street samurai) to ignore the darkness and still do his job by shooting holes in bad people, good people, and everything in between. But those other four senses, no matter how augmented, will not let a mage cast a direct-target spell.

Everyone gets it but you. Why is that?

*applauds Critias* That was a very nice rant. Concise, a little bit sarcastic, just how I like them.

Chris

Spell targeting when it comes to metahumans, for yet unknown reasons, is linked to visually (or alternately astrally) targeting a subject with the sense of sight - and by extension to what the metahuman eye can see. Why this is metahuman thaumaturgy hasn't yet worked out, but whether a spell is LOS or touch it always requires a mystic link (the spell targeting part) that is enabled by the sense of sight (whether physical or astral) - taste, sound, smell and even simple touch do not work.

The sense of sight can be optically or electronically enhanced, but in all cases the mystic connection involved in spell targeting is established by direct stimuli to the eyes (even if from unusual parts of the visual light spectrum.)

The reason Radar Sense and Ultrasound do not work is because they do not translate direct visual stimuli (enhanced or not) into visual sensory data, but instead create an entirely electronic composite visual representation of non-visual sensory data that is placed over your normal vision (or lack thereof) - this digital compositing destroys the mystical connection needed.

Biological echolocation also doesn't work because the sense of sight is not involved, it is a form of "acoustic sensing" (ie. non-visual).

OK, that answers that question.



Critias, the Ultrasound system on page 324 of the SR4 core rulebook has the following for it's entry (bold underline is my highlighting of the relevant part):



I would think that ultrasound is more like how a bats and dolphins "see". They emits the sonic pulse and when the wave returns they form a map in their mind like you or I do when light hits our eyes. I was educated on the Cyberware version, but thought that since the bioware version used what was already in the metahuman's body (just enhanced), that it would be different. THAT is why I went on as long as I did.

Synner came back to us and said that this doesn't work. End of discussion.

I can't help but wonder. Do you always ignore repeated attempts at logic and immediately kowtow to "authority" in your day to day life, or is it just an internet thing with you?

Yes you were and have been again, just as everyone told you it was going to be: when someone gets corrected and proven wrong about something he unreasonably and obnoxiously stood for while having been warned about by everybody else, well, he gets smacked down. How gentlely or politely that happens is of no relevance.

As for the piece of text you chose to cling to (as well as the way of underlining it), it doesn´t make any sense to other than you and the same goes to your ghoul "problem" interpretation. By the way, it´s quite sad that you needed an "official" source to stand corrected (given that said source hasn´t said anything you weren´t told before by other, less "official" sources). It´s sad because you´re still not understanding, you´re just doing as told by someone you consider a figure of authority and even when I don´t expect you to publicly aknowledge this I do hope you get to see how utterly wrong it is.

About the "end of discussion" thing... Man, you´re wrong again: this thread has NOTHING to do with your nonsense claimings, so the "discussion" is still open... As I said before, I couldn´t be happier of not being in your shoes.

I didn't get smacked down. I didn't get a warning in my mailbox, I didn't have a moderator come into this thread and say: "KC, you are warned... do this again and you're going away." Until that happens, I did NOT get smacked down. I don't know what your problem is, but I thought that my viewpoint was valid.



When Synner said "This doesn't work" I backed off... just like I did with the Radar sensors. I acknowledged when a developer said I was wrong. You turned this into a flame fest.



Uh, I was saying "End of Discussion" about using Echolocation as a form of sight to use for spell targeting. You don't have to be rude. I had an opinion about this and I presented my viewpoints. YOU didn't answer my questions about this.




Nope. This is a discussion board about a game. I had my opinion about a rule. You had your opinion. I presented my supporting evidence, you and the others countered. We had a discussion. You got rude, I used color and underlining to try to present my view.

Synner, since he is one of the people who made the game, is The Word. He(and the other developers) are the final judge of what happens. You and I get to play in his sandbox.

You were smacked down as in "Bad, Bobby, bad! You´re such a bad dog..." Kinda get it now?



I don´t think I turned this into anything like that (supported by both the fact that I wasn´t "smacked down" in the way you say you understand the term and that you stand by whatever the relevant "authorities" at hand say), but I do apologize if I made you feel that way.



I did both answer you (as well as many others did) and had been rude: though I think you behaved obnoxiuosly enough as to coming out as unpolite, that doesn´t force me nor justifies me responding in kind and regret having done so. Therefore, I present my apologies to whomever I may have offended.



This wasn´t adressed to me though it could have (based on my previous post): I find it really sad, but you can go play in someone elses´sandbox if you like it that way. As for me, I´ll just keep on playing in mine... Thanks for the offer anyway (and don´t take any of this too personal).

...uhh Umeko...ready to explode some heads?

...Umeko: ��

Whoa. I always thought LOS was only required for LOS spells. You're telling me that a blindfolded mage can not cast a touch-range spell on someone they're touching, unless they're also able to look at them? So visibility penalties would apply, that's a pretty big difference. They can't even cast a spell on themselves unless they look at their arm? I always thought that in the case of touch spells the "mystical link" was provided by full-on aura-on-aura action.

Well, visibility modifiers do apply to spellcasting, it is hard to see people on a misty night...
As for casting on yourself, I would say you always have the mystical link with yourself...
The touch thing, "feels" like it should work without sight, but that may just be a D&Dism, I have never even thought about it since it has never come up...

@Jester: I'm going to drop this discussion because if it goes on any further it might turn into a flame fest. I could defend myself, but I will admit that I took this to a level that I should not have (the colored big text). I do feel that I never used profanity unlike a few other people just on this page.

I am sorry that I caused some of you to get angry, but I felt I had a valid point. Synner has corrected me on this and therefore I now know that any form of mystic link has to be in the eyes.