thats probably why ultrasound isn't an eye mod anymore- game balance for the mages. on the upside,it makes more room for extra optics.

the real edge of the radar sensor, is you have 100m of visibility that can see through walls, AND roll its rating dice as a long-range cyberware scanner. its a tactical wonder, to have access to that kind of data... never mind not having any blind fire penalty for shooting through closed doors or walls. plus it compromises a fair amount of building security, especially if you can lookup or down into the next floor... see inside elevators before they open... just think how much meaner that will make corp security. sales of radar-blocking paint will go up for certain.

I just assume that the SR creators knew about as much about the difference between light and radar as they knew about statistics.

Chris

P.S. As an aside, Feshy, I am open to your arguments due in large part to the fact that I see about 60 nm farther on each side of the visible light spectrum than I should. Produces some weird damned effects sometimes, I swear.

Uh, quick question everyone... WHERE does it say that Radar Sensors would not work with spell casting? Which book and what page? I only remember that there was the rule that only technological detection methods paid for by essence would work for mages.

I always liked the old "opening yourself up to astral" bit, rather than allowing any technological sense to affect the casting, boiling everything down to: if you could assense it with your third eye, you can hit it with a spell. No radar, no ultrasound, no magnification, no darkness or light. Meh. They tinted windows to stop mages randomly casting at people (er, what?) and the same sort of handwaving could make radar useless pretty quickly.

...and then the 30 M long Tungsten rod, Tightly Focused Solar beam, or Flaming Cow lands on him.

It's all on page 173. The spellcaster has to be able to see the target with natural vision - cyber or bio visual enhancements paid with Essence count, but technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the user's own visual senses cannot be used. So ultrasound, which overlays or replaces the user's normal vision with a topological map, could not be used. Radar sensors do the same thing. Both state that they replace the user's normal vision with a visual representation, so neither can be used for spell targetting.


As far as 1 Essence worth of deltaware, I'm a meat and potatoes man. I would get synaptic booster: 3 for a Reaction and initiative boost that I wouldn't have to sustain, and that couldn't be dispelled, along with cybereyes IV with lots of goodies, a datajack, a commlink, and a sim module.

What is 'vision', anyway?

You don't 'see' the world. Photons reflected off objects strike receptors in your eyeballs, which release electrical signals traveling backwards to your brain. These electrical signals are then translated into a representation of the world!

I don't really want to come off as arguing for it -- because I'm quite against it if only for game balance purposes. I'm just disappointed that the fluff handles it this way.

BTW, maybe you are one of those rare people who have four separate color receptors instead of three? I thought it only happened in women though, so unless I'm wrong about that or Chris is short for something, probably not



It doesn't have to be, though. Terahertz wavelength cameras exist now, and it's not at all a stretch to think that in the future this could be extended to radio. Even if not, terahertz cameras can see through many objects as well. That's no different from the infrared camera in a cybereye.

Actually Glyph, you are mis-reading the line quite badly. The line from pg 173 is as such (the bold is my highlighting the relevant section):



So to me this means that a character with Radar Senses can use them to target some poor slot on the other side of a wall... I might have to look into that...

So, if he's using ultrasound goggles, it's a no-go, because it's only an overlay that his meat eyes are percieving.

But if it's cyber, it's 'percieved' by his aura, as he shed his Essence integrating it with his Aura.





In other news, in addition to RF-inhibiting wallpaper, RAM material has become a popular insulation in corporate buildings.

Radar Sensors are not an eye enhancement. It is a wholely seperate sensor. Note that it is Headware, not Eyeware.

I fail to see how that matters, Fortune. It still becomes an integrated sense, paid for with Essance.

It specifies "vision" in the rules for spellcasting/targeting. In much the same way you can't target a spell with a super mega ultra scooby-sharp sense of smell, I don't think you could target a spell with any other non-vision enhancement (like ultrasound, which is headware rather than eyeware).

I don't see why you'd take skillwires with a possession tradition, as (off the top of my head, don't have SM in front of me) all possession traditions, and only possession traditions, have access to task spirits...

Not really, since I said "cyber or bio visual enhancements paid with Essence count" in my post.



That's what disqualifies radar and ultrasound - they are not direct senses, but give an altered visual representation to the mage. If radar sense simply allowed the mage to see in that part of the electromagnetic spectrum, it would be all right, but that's not how it's described as working.

Uh, Critias, when Augmentation says the following (bold and underlining are for emphasis):



I think that if you allow thermographic vision, they you would allow Radar Sensors. Now I want to know why Radar Sensors and Ultrasound sensors in active mode have a "Full Darkness" modifier of -3. I mean they provide their own "light".

Er, you read the next part, right? "similar in some ways to ultrasound." Ultrasound "vision" is the canonical example of a sense that you cannot use to target magic, because if you could then in principle you could target someone based on the sound of their voice as well.

Again, line of sight has a different and in some ways deeper meaning than merely being able to detect the target, otherwise there'd be no problems targeting someone from hearing their voice and/or footsteps around a corner, or via a live camera feed. There is something that must be metaphysically significant about specifically having Line of Sight to someone, a level of, intimacy for lack of a better word, that just doesn't happen over other kinds of senses, like hearing or smell, or radar or ultrasound.

Above all, though, the thing to remember is it's magic. "Making sense" is not really a priority here; it's magic, so even the laws of physics can go sit in a corner and cry, to some extent. There are a few cases where reason intervenes, for instance to tell us that Improved Invisibility cannot, as the book implies, be an actual bending of light, as that leads to several impossible contradictions. And we all know that one of the rules is that "A contradiction cannot exist in reality. Not in part, nor in whole." This whole issue of sight and line of effect doesn't produce any contradiction, however, so that doesn't really apply here.

The rules of very specific. "Technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character's own visual senses" cannot be used, as per the core rulebook. By your own quoting, the piece of gear you're referring to "overlays (or replaces) the user's visual sense." I don't see how you're quoting that text as an argument for that piece of gear to work. It's pretty obvious, for instance, that's it's the sort of thing the core rulebook is talking about when it says what doesn't work.

And thermo still takes a penalty in complete darkness because thermo is crappy and grainy and innately not detail-oriented. Hell, go watch the Predator movies or play a little Rainbow Six or something. Things are fuzzy and blurry, and even with sixty years of upgrades you're going to be stuck with foreign heat signatures, extra layers of clothing, armor plating, cold weapons (or hot weapons), and all sorts of other background and everyday changes in heat signature keeping that vision type from being crystal clear for pinpoint accuracy. When you flip on thermo in R6, you then run around and you blast at heat blobs you find (and hope they're not just water pipes or electronics). That's not exactly eagle-eye perception there. A TN penalty makes sense.

It's been mentioned before, but never ever forget the simple goodness that is the humble datajack.

...letsee, I have three people, who's knowledge and interpretation of the rules I respect (even though we don't always see eye to eye on all issues) who have put up sound arguments and who agree that Radar Sense would not work for targeting a spell through a wall. Looks like my decision is made.

Yes, it is an issue of game balance vs fluff. In this instance Game Balance wins and in my campaigns that is the way it will be.

C'mon mages already have ritual location/targeting, Spirits that can track someone down (& can carry out an assassination if so ordered to), and spells which bypass pretty much most mundane defences. Being able to simply "look" through a wall in the meat world & fry some poor slot who is totally unawares it is coming is just a little too munchy Ãœber for me. Vi cant hit him with her gun unless she overcomes the wall's armour and structural rating (which would require a much larger gun than she can use - like an MG or assault cannon) & even then the target gets extra armour from the barrier.

@ Eyeless Blond & Critias, did both of you ignore the fact that the mage PAYS for Radar sensors with Essence? The book quite clearly states that any sense that is paid for with Essence is a legit means of targeting spells. Look at the examples from page 173:



Those are external and are not paid for with Essence, therefore are invalid. It would be the same if the Mage had Low Light or Thermographic vision goggles, they don't work because the Mage didn't pay for them with Essence.

...make that four people I respect who agree.

...apologies, EB.

OK, how about we send an offical question to the game developers and ask them about this question. That way we have "The Offical Word" on this issue.

...fair enough.

No. The book quite clearly states that it is vision that can be paid for with Essence (by way of enhancement) and still be a legit means of targeting spells. Again, you can't target a spell by sense of smell or hearing, no matter how enhanced they are. It is called "line of sight" for a reason. Sight.

Ultrasound is not a sight enhancement. It is not eyeware. It is not a vision modification. It does not influence line of sight. Yes, you paid Essence for it. Yes, for activities that aren't magical and nature and don't require "line of sight" you can sometimes use them to see where someone is and do mean things to them (like fire a gun or throw a grenade). No, that doesn't automatically mean it's a vision enhancement that you can then use for spell targeting (any more than a cyberarm, dermal plating, or wired reflexes are automatically vision enhancements that you can use for spell targeting, just because you pay essence for them, too).

OK Everybody, I'm sending the following message to Synner:

Okay. While you're at it, ask him if they can target spells with just a datajack, 'cause it's headware that costs Essence to have implanted, too, and I also don't see that covered in the Q&A anywhere.

Oh, wait! Maybe it's not in the Q&A because it's a question that doesn't need to be asked any where, on account of it making no sense.

A datajack's not a visual modification (just like Ultrasound and Radar aren't). The fact someone's paid Essence for it does not matter. There's plenty of stuff -- anything that's not a cyberoptic modification, for instance -- that you pay Essence for that has nothing at all to do with vision and line of sight. Ultrasound and Radar are augmentations you sense with, but do not see with in the sense of drawing line of sight for magic. I don't understand why the distinction is so apparently lost on you.

Critias, I sent him the frakkin' letter already! Please, don't be an ass about this! If Synner says that a Mage with the Radar Sensor can't target someone then that's it. If he says that they can, then will you acknowledge I'm right?

As for your bulls*** example of using a Datajack to "see"... of course you can't because it doesn't have frakkin' sensors!

Well an occular drone is something with sensors that you paid for with essence. It is discounted though when it leaves your body as its no longer a vision mod

That's because the drone is no longer touching the mage and therefore breaks the Astral connection. I'm thinking if the mage uses an ocular drone and HOLDS in his hand (or has an extra cybereye implanted in his hand), then he can look around a corner and target someone like that.

A Radar Sensor doesn't leave the body, it just sends out photons... like a flashlight, and when those photons bounce back it converts that to an image the mind can comprehend... like how the eye works.

Right -- it creates its own image and shares it with the mage who can see it. It does NOT, though, modify existing visual capabilities. It's not a vision mod, it's just headware that happens to help you know where people are in the dark.

Critias, I sent the letter to Synner, he is The Word © on what is allowed in Shadowrun and what is not. If he says that Radar doesn't help with spell casting, then I will admit that you were right and I was all frakked up. If he says that it does work will you admit I was right?

Oh, and do you acknowledge that the Mark I Eyeball works on reflected photons just like the radar sensor. Do you acknowledge that the reflected light causes electrical signals to travel from the eye through the optic nerver and into the brain. Finally, do you acknowledge that the brain turns these electrical signals into an image by maping out the 3d space being viewed.

If you answer these questions and can refute that they are different from Radar vision (other than the wavelengths of the photons are shorter), then I'll acknowlege that I am an idiot and you were right.

I know you sent the letter. Or, well, I fully believe you when you claim to have done so. I just don't understand why you felt it was necessary to do so.

In much the same way, I'm not sure why you won't (or can't) either acknowledge, or refute, the point that Radar and Ultrasound aren't vision mods. Instead of address the point (any of the times that I've brought it up, or when others did the same) despite us quoting text and page numbers right at you, you say you're asking dad what he thinks (when one would assume that what got written in the rulebook would give you a pretty good idea of the game designer's stance, especially since, as you said, no FAQ or Q&A refutes it).

I felt it was necessary to send the letter because neither you nor I are the final Word when it comes to Shadowrun. Synner and his compatriots are the Final Word. They will be the ones who determine who's reading of the rules is correct. They will be the ones to say: "Critias is correct and Mages can not use Radar sensors to target spells." or they will say "KCKitsune is correct and they can use Radar sensors to target spells." Either way, we will get our answer and will be made better for it.

So, okay. Still no comment on the fact that Radar and Ultrasound clearly aren't listed as vision modifications (augmentations to the sense that's used to determine line of sight). Thanks for the update.

OK Critias, I blew up a few posts back, I'm sorry about that. I will say that in my one post, the exact quote from Augmentation about Radar Sensors was this:



I think that is pretty clearly a vision modification. It REPLACES THE USER'S VISUAL SENSES! How much more clear do you want it to be. Now let Synner get back to us on this.

In my campaign, radar-blocking paint or materials are standard. So, no looking through walls with radar there.

Best reason to say officially that it doesn't -
If they say it does allow casting through walls then progbably a good chunk of GMs will either houserule that it doesn't or houserule out the implant altogether, and players some players would avoid it like the plague because they don't want to feel like a twink (not saying they *would* be twinks or not, just that some players would feel like one).

As to why ultrasound vision gets a penalty, it must be a very odd experience seeing through it. Also you don't get colour vision etc. Also thermo/ultra having penalties in pure dark has the handy advantage of giving you a reason to use a low light torch (flashlight to you in the States)... and hope any opposition have neither low light enhancements themselves or include elves/orks.

Both radar sense and ultrasound produce computer generated composite representations of the feedback from non-visual sensor arrays. These replace/overlay the normal visual sensorium and do not allow/constitute a visual link to target for spellcasting purposes.

The previous post makes my response to your tantrum unnecessary.

But I bet it'd still be fun.

Thanks for finally stomping on this, Synner. I've been really anxious to hear the FINAL WORD for several posts now.

Sometimes I ground my daughter just because it reminds me of Second Edition. Does that make me a bad person?

Again, there isn't a difference between radar and vision.

If you have low-light cybereyes with low-light eye lights installed, your character essentially sends out a wide beam of polarized photons that are reflected off the object, focused through an optical device such as a mirror or lense, and processed by a camera (grid of sensors) sensitive to the appropriate wavelengths. That camera generates a parallel set of electrical impulses in your optical nerves, and your character "sees" the target.

The default radar implant described in augmentation doesn't work this way -- but there is nothing but engineering difficulties preventing it from doing so. I would strongly suspect that those engineering difficulties would be solved by 2070! Given the huge potential advantage such a system would provide to mages, I can't imagine why it wouldn't have been done.

For game balance purposes, I'm glad it doesn't work, though.

Excuse me Fortune, I was getting mad at Critias for making his snide comment. It's not a "tantrum" when the jerk was prodding me with his comment:



I think that if you were being taunted like that, that you would have responded... especially since if you already posted something that supported your position.


Critias, now that it is official, I was wrong and therefore acknowledge you and the others were correct about Radar sensors.

...aaaghhhh! Gonna get my PE character Umeko out & she's gonna make some heads explode real soon like.

It's over, done, finito, fin, ende... the rotund female has vocalised.

Synner, profuse thanks for finally laying this to rest.

...now on to the original topic (if it's not too late)

Hey, as soon as Synner said it didn't allow spell targeting, I acknowledged Critias was correct and dropped that line of questioning.

As for the original topic, of course it's possible get back to that.

Sorry, no need to make heads explode. It was always my position that it was good for rules balance, after all. I just like the idea that somewhere out there in the shadowrun world (far, far from the hands of the PCs) is a lunatic metamaterials expert with a cyber-mod that makes his head look more like a deep space telescope that can fireball around corners.

As for the original topic, I believe someone mentioned smuggling compartments for hiding focii in. I've always gone with skin pockets instead -- the size is a bit more ambiguous, so GMs are more likely to let your focii fit. Plus, it's easier on the essence. While the cost is higher, it still isn't high.

Daredrenaline is good for just about everyone, though pricy.

Platelet Factories, I'm convinced, are SR4's enhanced articulation. Not too pricey, good for drain and damage alike. Trauma dampers have a similar function, but cost much more. If you can afford it, though, nothing stopping you from having both.

A partial cyberlimb is a great place to put a good deal of swell stuff. Nanite hives are one of those options. Though the attribute enhancing nanites aren't very useful for a mage, everyone can benefit from some of the others. Another is all the general-purpose stuff -- commlinks, radar (even if it doesn't let you cast through schools)

Skillwires are one of those things I always want, but never find room for. For a good chargen-rated system, .6 (or .7 if you want to use edge) is a lot. If you can go deltaware, though, that's different. Skillwires are cheap, and the essence cost of delta wires is much more manageable.

While I like the idea of a synaptic booster getting you some extra IP's without spells around, it's a very pricey bit of gear in both essence and cost. Not something you can realistically get as deltaware without owing some gigantic favors.

Sleep regulators are also good general purpose 'ware, but not as useful for mages since there are spells that can reduce your need for sleep.

Question: If a person has reflex augmentation (Wired Reflexes, Move-by-Wire, or Synaptic booster) does the Increase Reflexes spell work on them (up to the max of 4 IP of course)? If so then having the Synaptic Booster is great for the "Cyber Mage" because he needs less hits to get up to max speed.

Pretty sure Kyoto was talking to Feshy that time, Kitsune. Anyway, I am a big fan of the sleep regulator and reflex boosters, I generally ignore all cyber for mages beyond that and stick to the more expensive but more essense friendly bioware.

Chris