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Cthulhudreams
It's becoming clear I have no idea how extraterritoriality in shadowrun is supposed to work. So I'm attempting to 'crowd souce' an answer.

Fire away guys.

I'd also love it if people like ancient history and other experts could toss their views into the hat.
Fortune
I probably would have cast my vote somewhere between 10% and 70% ... if there had been an option to do so. wink.gif
Earlydawn
I'd just like to clarify my response to the final question - While I said one country gets the lion's share, I believe that each corp would pay to each locality. However, they more then likely structure it so most taxes are paid at their main headquarters, as they have the most vested interest there. Additionally, I also think they end up keeping a serious chunk.
Cthulhudreams
Please, if you feel that the answer is somewhere between 'branch' and 'regional' please state where it is in terms of facility size. I actually left that bracket out as a conscious decision because It wasn't clear to me what sort of facility demarcation you could make that would actually fall into the gap.

For example if distribution warehouses and factories are included, you're going to end up at the 70% mark. If they are not (and other business facilities of equal size are not) you're going to end up at the less than 20% mark.

I was initally going to leave the percentages out and just use the definitions, hence my lack of a definition lead to a lack of voting option. Sorry.

Edit: I can add poll choices, so please provide that definition!
Fortune
I don't think it has anything to do with size.

I think pretty much every AAA and AA research and manufacturing facility would be extraterritorial.
I would think most AAA and AA head offices and the like would be extraterritorial.
I think very few storefronts or normal warehouses would be considered extraterritorial.

Keep in mind that extraterritorial facilities have to be clearly marked as such by a Corporation that actually has that right. Holdings of those companies owned by AAA/AAs but not actually bearing their name will not be extraterritorial.

Also, on occasion it might be in a AAA/AA corporation's best interest not to advertise the presence of their super secret research facility by slapping a big extraterritorial sign on the outside.
Cthulhudreams
Why would you include factories and not distribution warehouses that will funnel way, way, way more product through them than a given factory? The warehouses just as sensitive a location in the supply chain for the vast majority of consumer products

Anyway, what about stuff like the internal consultancy cells, their accountancy etc

Lets look at an industry model then (Maybe I should have done this as the poll instead), which is what I think you are getting at:

Industry is comprised of 4 sectors:

The primary sector, largely raw material extraction industries such as mining and farming; <-- Extraterritorial

The secondary sector, involving refining and manufacturing; <-- Extraterritorial

The tertiary sector, which deals with services (such as law and medicine) and distribution of manufactured goods; <-- Okay this needs breakdown, because clearly half of it is and half of it isn't. Looking at the half that may be (so ignoring the distribution sector as 'not')

* Franchising <-- Not
* Restaurants <-- Not
* News media <-- Is
* Leisure industry/hotels <-- Not
* Consulting <-- Is
* Healthcare/hospitals <-- Is
* Waste disposal <-- Is
* Real estate <-- Maybe?
* Personal services <-- Is
* Business services <-- Is
* Utilities <-- Is

Quaternary sector, a relatively new type of industry focusing on technological research, design and development such as computer programming and biochemistry <-- Definitely Extraterritorial

So with that model, we arrive at the 70+% or so of the world economy is extraterritorial, based off looking at this wiki heatmap of GDPs, though I could probably do with some better numbers.

http://www.rba.gov.au/PublicationsAndResea...07_11_a_box.pdf

Edit: Using numbers for china gives me 72% of investment would be extraterritorial, assuming real estate is out (though some of that would be in), so thats not a bad first estimate. China is skewed towards secondary industry, but excluding real estate from below the line as well as above says that 84% of investment would be extraterritoral, giving my numbers some padding.

I feel better about the choices now.
kzt
Considering that the cops and fire department won't fight fires or investigate crimes on non-taxpaying extraterritorial sites....
Fortune
Cthulhudreams: I think your estimates are way too high.
toturi
Whether a facility is extra-territorial is explicitly stated in Corp Download. The decision whether to make the facility extra-territorial lies with each corp and the extenuating circumstances (ie the GM).
WeaverMount
The corps can do whatever they want. If they feel like being the only people who say what's what for a given patch of dirt they can. If they don't they can externalize the cost. If the site in question isn't worth good security they leave it to the state. So the stuffer shack store? Aztechnology doesn't care --> whatever protection the zone has. Multi billion nuyen.gif nano fab? That's extraterritorial. The other factor besides security is control. Corp workers of all status will be housed in extraterritorial facilities. Ares doesn't want anyone to know what they do the grunts water supply. They need to control the info flow to the middle class. Proper care for executive involves "retention" polices that also require extraterritoriality.

ornot
I'd say most of a corps operations are extraterritorial, possibly somewhere around 70% or a little lower, although as has been pointed out, any smaller corporations they own indirectly will not be extraterritorial.

Where they have an extraterritorial complex, most of the staff will be housed and resident on site, so they won't have to pay taxes to a sovereign nation state. Where an employee commutes onto an extraterritorial holding to work, they will be taxed on their out of country earnings by their government. Of course, if Denver is anything to go by, taxes are often raised by a tariff on goods and services.

The megacorps themselves do not pay tax on their profit. Indeed, governments would have a hard time imposing pollution controls, employee abuse restrictions etc. on extraterritorial facilities. By this mechanism they maintain their own dominance and justify the costs of extraterritoriality to their shareholders.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Fortune @ May 12 2008, 02:48 AM) *
Cthulhudreams: I think your estimates are way too high.


Well, thats just proceeding with the assumption that all production facilities and locations that house knowledge workers will be extraterritorial. Different numbers can be produced by changing those assumptions. It's just that most facilities in the world fall into those categories ;P

I can see opinion is actually coming down on the side of 'corps don't pay tax' and but individuals is split, which is interesting.
DocTaotsu
I interpreted the "lions share" to mean that they keep more than half of their taxes (mostly because of all the tax write off a corps could demand from their gracious host nation). Not that they didn't pay taxes are at all. If a nation is getting only a fraction of a corps GDP that's still a fantastic amount of money.
nezumi
I agree with fortune. Probably around 40-70% of corporate property is extraterritorial, depending on the corp and area.

Extraterritoriality is primarily a function of security. You can safely assume that most everything which contains sensitive business information or processes will be protected by extraterritoriality. Same with most matrix hosts, and finally, anything big enough to support its own security team will likely be extraterritorial (so malls and the like oftentimes are). If the place is too small to support a security force, or fall under a nearby forces' umbrella, or is not plainly associated with the corp or is otherwise not worth worrying about, it probably isn't extraterritorial.
vladski
The way I see it, Corps don't pay taxes, perse. However, you better believe that they pay "fees" to the nation their bit of land resides in. It's like "rent."

Also, I would say that any goods that come out of factories that hit the marketplace are paying some form of tariff. Also, any goods bought in an Arcology... tax-free! But, you plan on walking out of that store with the goods onto the city streets? You are gonna pay an import fee. I would say this is handled in a booth right at hte doors of the place, possibly handled by the Corp itself and jsut turned right over to the UCAS.

As far as citizens... even if a citizen lives in an arcology, he's gonna be paying income tax in my world. If a citizen of the UCAS goes to work for a corp and lives in one of hteir facilities that is exterritorial, he's still a citizen of hte UCAS and has to pay taxes on income he earned. Check out Wesley Snipes 3 year conviction for refusing to pay taxes on income he earned out of hte USA. Now, if Renraku flies in some citizen from Japan to work in the Arcology, that guy pays no taxes (at least not to the UCAS) but, I would also say that his paperwork had better be in order when he leaves the building and enters the UCAS. Nothing major, but he had better have the equivilant of a Corp SIN AND a form of a VISA/Passport. I personally see them checking at the doors of the Arcology, much like entering and exiting a cruise ship in the Bahamas. It's routine, basic, low-level and it moves fast! But you are being checked every time.

The way I see it, this is all still great for hte Corp... they pay a flat fee to the nation they are residing in and they pass the rest of the taxation off on their employees and customers. Are a lot of things cheated on? Sure! Are goods frequently slippped over the "border" without duties and fees? Of course! But, that's no different than today. As long as the government is getting their cut, and the Corp is turning profit, everyone is pretty happy.

Vlad
Zak
Why would Renraku even employ an UCAS citizen? There is nothing in it for the corp.
So, if they get hired by Renraku (and not some company they own without ET status) they would also switch nationality from UCAS to Renraku.

And I do not see the AA / AAA corps paying any taxes at all. Canada does not pay taxes to the USA either (afaik). They may be paying for services provided for them by the surrounding nation, but the opposite will also happen.
Sponge
Here's how we view it: Only stuff that's directly owned by the AAA (not AA, from what I understand one of the major distinctions between AA and AAA is extra-territoriality) is extra-territorial. Anything that's owned by a subsidiary doesn't get that benefit. This means that generally, only major facilities will be extra-territorial.

Basically, if you are going to claim extra-territoriality for a particular piece of land, you'd better be able to back that up with force - because the local law enforcement is not going to lift a finger if something bad happens there. So for stuff that's not worth the investment of enough security to enforce the AAA's own laws, it's more efficient to spin it off as a subsidiary and let the local jurisdiction handle law enforcement (which is not to say they won't have security, it just won't be as much, and it may have a more restricted RoE).

DS
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (nezumi @ May 12 2008, 11:55 AM) *
Extraterritoriality is primarily a function of security. You can safely assume that most everything which contains sensitive business information or processes will be protected by extraterritoriality. Same with most matrix hosts, and finally, anything big enough to support its own security team will likely be extraterritorial (so malls and the like oftentimes are). If the place is too small to support a security force, or fall under a nearby forces' umbrella, or is not plainly associated with the corp or is otherwise not worth worrying about, it probably isn't extraterritorial.


What about something like a regional office of a major law or accounting firm. For example, clifford chance - once of the biggest law firms in the world has a tiny office (I'm pretty sure its less than 10 people) in australia to help them manage international deals.

So the office manages stuff that is unquestionably highly sensitive (for multibillion dollar deals), but is also too small to support a security force.

What happens then? It could go either way, but the way you come down on that decision is going to severely effect how many extraterritorial properties there are.
vladski
QUOTE (Zak @ May 12 2008, 04:46 PM) *
Why would Renraku even employ an UCAS citizen? There is nothing in it for the corp.
So, if they get hired by Renraku (and not some company they own without ET status) they would also switch nationality from UCAS to Renraku.

And I do not see the AA / AAA corps paying any taxes at all. Canada does not pay taxes to the USA either (afaik). They may be paying for services provided for them by the surrounding nation, but the opposite will also happen.


Why wouldn't they hire a UCAS citizen? They don't care if an employee wants to pay more taxes. It doesn't come out of their pocket. A Corp is still making jsut as much money via any fees it charges employees for living there. While it might make more sense fiscally for a citizen to renounce their UCAS citizenship (and I think it would be common and favored by the Corp), I can see some wishing not to do so. I would think the whole matter probably varies from Corp to Corp and from country to country. A UCAS Citizen is gonna be subject to all the rules/laws of the ET Corp while they are on their property, and I rarely see the Corp allowing UCAS to extradite a UCAS citizen while they are on their property... unless it's beneficial to the Corp. A UCAS citizen gets, for their taxes, (and little else) citizenship that allows them to flee the Corp should htey manage to make it out the door, without as much fear of hte Corp jsut requiring the hosting country to turn them right back over becasue they are cancelling their VISA. On the sidewalk, that UCAS citizen has rights, dammit! Inside the Corp enclave, hah!

As for the Corps paying some sort of flat tax on the land they are sitting on, to me it's the only way I see of making hte whole thing work fiscally. Same goes to fees, duties, and import/export taxes on goods sold in arcologies/ET Corp properties but hitting the streets. The corp might have ET status, but you'd better believe the country gives a hoot about (and wants their dime for) stuff coming into the country proper. Otherwise we run into the exact problems peopel are discussing in this thread. I don't see any country voluntarily giving up more than 2/3's of it's tax base without replacing it with something. By canon, the UCAS has a standing large military, complete with a modern navy and airforce. Those flat fees for leasing ET Corp land and the goods taxes would go a long way towards replacing that... without gouging into the Corps profits hardly at all. And, in the end, that standing army is good for the ET Corps as well. If a country is defending it's city, it's, by proxy, defending that Corp building sitting in it.

All of this is my opinion and the way my game is. YMMV, of course.

Vlad
DocTaotsu
You've also left off that the corps gets to sell the military to the host nation, it's always nice to get your money back.
nezumi
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ May 12 2008, 06:15 PM) *
What about something like a regional office of a major law or accounting firm. For example, clifford chance - once of the biggest law firms in the world has a tiny office (I'm pretty sure its less than 10 people) in australia to help them manage international deals.

So the office manages stuff that is unquestionably highly sensitive (for multibillion dollar deals), but is also too small to support a security force.

What happens then? It could go either way, but the way you come down on that decision is going to severely effect how many extraterritorial properties there are.


Firstly, of course, there may be other influences worth mentioning here, and there's nothing stopping them from having a bit of extraterritorial land they give Lone Star permission (and money) to cover. However, all else being equal, I'd assume that they would firstly, try and position the office inside of or nearby another bit of their property. So the Renraku law office would be based inside the arcology, to save money on infrastructure.

Failing that, they would try and position it close by other resources. So the Ares law office may be next door to the Knight Errant office.

If they can't do THAT, what they'll likely do is claim extraterritoriality, then make a deal with a local security firm to provide security. The benefits here are:
1) They can use whatever matrix security they want, and prosecute anyone who intrudes based on their laws (and really, in a law firm, matrix security is probably the most important component.)
2) They can tell the local security forces that Seattle/UCAS law does not apply here - they may shoot on sight without provocation. They may use the toys they can't use in Seattle proper. They can pay for a Lone Star depot to be put up next door and have all the same powers as a corporate security force for less cost.
3) It provides more privacy and secrecy. Sure, Lone Star might be close to these sensitive files, but the case will never go to trial in the UCAS. If someone is caught, everything is handled in-house with Lone Star being the only outsider.
kzt
And when someone plays with matches the FD stands outside and makes sure it doesn't spread to somewhere important.
Zak
QUOTE (kzt @ May 13 2008, 10:56 AM) *
And when someone plays with matches the FD stands outside and makes sure it doesn't spread to somewhere important.


Well for that you have a contract with one of the local private Fire Fighting Companies.
JudgementLoaf
Frankly, I tend to look at this in more in the form of a corporate cost/benefit equation. Does the corp. have the potential of loosing nuyen.gif on the deal? If so, how much? The corp obviously will not care if a stuffer shack is robbed, as the financial loss will be totally meaningless in the grand scheme of things. So, its unlikely that the stuffer shack will be extraterritorial unless it happens to sit within a compound that is extraterritorial for another reason (such as an archology). Corporate HQ's, assembly plants, RnD labs and other similar sites have a lot more potential loss however, not to mention the fact that having the star or an outside security force present creates an easy entrance for espionage or theft. After all, if they were not hired and trained by the corp, who can say they meet the "honesty guidelines" set by the parent company? Furthermore, the corp is likely to jealously guard its captive markets. Any place they can present their products unmolested is very important. Likewise, any place they can draw personnel from (such as colleges, magical institution/groups, ect.) is probably under corporate "protection". However, the corps are not dumb. It is likely that the majority of these places will be crammed together on a very large plot of land to maximize corporate security effectiveness (as well as advertising nuyen.gif ).

So, in short, I would look at the big picture. If the corporation in question stands to loose a substantial amount of resources by leaving it (it doesn't matter if the resources are personnel, magical or financial), they will protect it with their own people instead of leaving it open to the public.
kzt
QUOTE (Zak @ May 13 2008, 11:25 AM) *
Well for that you have a contract with one of the local private Fire Fighting Companies.

Good luck with that....

It requires just a bit more gear to do fire fighting than security, and you tend to need a lot more guys to do it with. Look in the yellow pages and count the number of private security firms. Then count the number of private fire fighting firms. There is a reason for this.
Zak
QUOTE (kzt @ May 13 2008, 11:52 AM) *
Good luck with that....

It requires just a bit more gear to do fire fighting than security, and you tend to need a lot more guys to do it with. Look in the yellow pages and count the number of private security firms. Then count the number of private fire fighting firms. There is a reason for this.


Well, then you have a contract with the city. Or fly them in from your next big outpost. But I am pretty sure that there will be demand for private fire fighting. But that's not important for this thread smile.gif
kzt
It's easy to get the city to do fire fighting. Pay taxes. And follow the building and fire codes, which means admitting the inspectors. Otherwise they and the cops will establish a perimeter and keep everyone from endangering themselves while they protect exposed property. The perimeter will naturally keep out random people who might be driving fire engines or security vehicles....

If you are not paying taxes and employing citizens you have NO leverage. You don't provide any budget or votes. They will certainly make out better by having your plant burn down and you have to hire local construction workers to build it again.
Zak
QUOTE (kzt @ May 13 2008, 01:36 PM) *
It's easy to get the city to do fire fighting. Pay taxes. And follow the building and fire codes, which means admitting the inspectors. Otherwise they and the cops will establish a perimeter and keep everyone from endangering themselves while they protect exposed property. The perimeter will naturally keep out random people who might be driving fire engines or security vehicles....

If you are not paying taxes and employing citizens you have NO leverage. You don't provide any budget or votes. They will certainly make out better by having your plant burn down and you have to hire local construction workers to build it again.


So, what you are saying is: An embassy on fire will just burn down with the FD watching? smile.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Zak @ May 13 2008, 01:44 PM) *
So, what you are saying is: An embassy on fire will just burn down with the FD watching? smile.gif

Embassies exist in DC only, all land purchases by an embassy must be approved by the federal government in accordance with the Vienna Convention, and embassies don't include retail stores that don't pay sales tax and industrial plants that claim immunity to pollution laws and don't pay taxes.

An extraterritorial site is a a giant "fuck you" to the city it is in. Would you expect Daley or Giuliani to just accept that? Or would you expect a lot of "road work" and "utility work" to happen along the perimeter, work that closes off the loading docks and the water and power for a few weeks? Perhaps every few months, if nor more often? Maybe with walkouts by the union workers?
nezumi
I'm sure there are diplomatic missions in New York that also enjoy extraterritoriality (related to the UN).

Also remember that in times not too distant the fire departments were completely privatized - you pay a fee to the fire department and when there's a fire, they come put it out. They didn't do inspections beforehand, since it would be too much hassle (at least not for private homes). It was turned into a public institution as a convenience and safety issue, but there's absolutely no reason someone wouldn't set up a group that only does fire protection for a fee (just like in Shadowrun we have groups that do police protection or emergency services for a fee).

I'm not a firefighter, however I don't see a lot of gear in a fire truck that can't be put in a large helicopter or civilian-class thunderbird, both of which we are led to believe are reasonably common in Shadowrun. Additionally, many aspects of fire fighting can be done by drones in Shadowrun which are cheaper, more effective and disposable. Hence, if people in Shadowrun can afford to have a giant, armored helicopter drop out of the sky within five minutes, with a crew of four there to pull them out of trouble and deliver them to safety for the measly price of $5k/year, I'm pretty sure a business can afford a contract with a company that will drop TWO helicopters on them with five minutes notice and contain and put out their fire.

I know this sort of thing really strains your suspension of disbelief, what with flying ambulances, privatized public services and corporations having tremendous powers over government. However, extraterritoriality and docwagon are well established facts of Shadowrun. If you can't get over them, you may want to consider playing another game.
kzt
Yeah, you could in theory fly in people to fight a fire, you just can't have them bring anything heavy when they rappel out of the helicopter. Like water, pumps or hoses. But they could each carry a blanket and beat the fire out....

There are reasons why a typical fire engine weights 20 tons and why several of them show up for even a small fire.
ornot
If there wasn't a public fire service there would need to be a private one.

The police are widely privatised, why not the fire services?

As for 6th world ways to fight fires, it would be easy for a small cabal of mages to summon water elementals from a central location and send them out to extinguish fires throughout the city. It only requires one (remote) service, after all.
Cthulhudreams
The real reason that firefighting is unlikely to be outsourced and is particularly tricky in a multi jurisdicational area is that it generates huge negative externalities. While you may be willing to accept the risk that a fire will burn your house to the ground and go for the el cheapo deal, cinders and sparks may set the neighbouring houses on fire, so they want the fire fighters to put the fire out.

It's a public good.

Zak
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ May 15 2008, 05:12 AM) *
The real reason that firefighting is unlikely to be outsourced and is particularly tricky in a multi jurisdicational area is that it generates huge negative externalities. While you may be willing to accept the risk that a fire will burn your house to the ground and go for the el cheapo deal, cinders and sparks may set the neighbouring houses on fire, so they want the fire fighters to put the fire out.

It's a public good.


Actually it is not a public good in the strict sense. You might think it is a public good for you because it is funded by the government (And even that might not help you if you are living at the wrong side of the town). But it can be outsourced and becomes exclusive. Hey, they did it with the police.

Taking your example, let's say 2 houses stand next to each other and one is one fire.
But the owner of the burning house was cheap and did only sign with a slow fire fighting company which won't arrive in time.

His neighbour however signed with a proper company. They get the alarm of a fire next to one of their customers and start moving. Once there they will take care the fire does not cross into their customers property.
Maybe they even offer the houseowner of the burning house a two year contract for stopping the fire on his property aswell. Or they just let it burn, mocking the other firecrew arriving too late.
Cthulhudreams
While that example is kinda interesting it doesn;t address the full range of possibilities. Consider what happened in California two years or my home town a few years more before that. Large bushfires started in 'waste land' and swept into town after a while.

Now the government could outsource so a single provider, but that doesn't even really consider these events.

Also, consider something like the WTC towers, or other large buildings that have collapsed after a fire. Fire damage from you is going to have a potentially very large impact on me, even if you only consider smoke damage.

And if we step back in time and consider the great fire of london.. well, a baker skimped on his fire control here and burnt down the city due to a very fast spreading fire. Without a fire department to run thngs like building codes, that could very well happen again, particularly in poor districts.

Finally, you don't consider how company two would get the fire alarm, without some sort of public interface layer. Without automatic detection systems or any sort of alerting, they are unlikely to find out about it until the fire is extremely advanced, increasing the risk of spot fires even if you do have a good contract.

All it all, 'fire safety' really is a public good. You can see how the bushfire situation is ripe for problems in particular, as it often requires a multi district effort as is - something unlikely in an individual policy holder enivroment. It's even subject to free rider problems without a government provision. Looks like a public good to me.
Zak
It's all a question of suspension of disbelief. Why can't their be contracts for that kind of situation?
Seattle would have to argue about that with another nation anyway. Just imagine Denver.

Private companies might even have an easier time dealing with this than government run ones, as they can be active on both sides of the border without much hassle.

If you can have to buy the police work from private companies, why should it be different for healthcare, energy supply, schooling or the fire departments?
Cthulhudreams
Oh yeah, the government as a whole could certainly contract out servicing of the FD like they do lone star. If one company could get sufficient contracts across the country, they could even manage emergencies effectively.

Just individual contracts don't really work as it is a public good and does suffer from free rider problems.

As for suspension of disbelief, yeah, SR imho does have many, many, many times when you just have to push the 'I believe' button.

Some of the other examples you use, like schooling, health care energy supply are private goods and individual contracts work fine, though I do health inequalitydoes generate negative externalities.

I'd actually say that FD and PD are both things where government intervention is required as they are both much more public goods.
nezumi
Keep in mind that Seattle isn't exactly a city full of wild brush or log cabins. While office buildings CAN burn, they don't spread as easily as houses in 19th century London or in modern day California.

Secondly, the private fire department is interested in protecting property. I am SURE there would be a law somewhere that says 'if your house is a giant inferno, it is a public danger and therefore may be destroyed for the public good', with an addendum, 'any certified fire fighter is given the public trust to protect the safety of the customers of his company and those around him, but is not required nor expected to protect the property of non-customers. Therefore, he is not legally liable should he, in his professional opinion, destroy your burning house to protect his neighbor.' If there are two neighbors, one with a contract and one without (which would be pretty unusual really, I have to imagine that rowhouses would be owned all by landowners, who would form an association, and gated communities would also have some sort of home-owner's association and so on, who would all contract together to cover a wide area for mutual safety and reduction in price), the fire fighters are allowed to either put out the fire or destroy the house of the non-contracted person in order to protect the contracted person (and the 'public good').

Thirdly, extraterritoriality is not a checkerboard. You will generally have large pieces of extraterritoriality, and in those cases where it's a single stand-alone bit, most will have some sort of appropriate coverage. There COULD BE some confusion where the extraterritorial bit has a contract with B, who hasn't shown up yet, and A is fighting the fire coming off the little bit of extraterritorial property that's in an inferno, btu I suspect such instances would be rare.
Emperor Tippy
According to Corporate Shadowfiles (a really good book) only 3 AAA's paid so much as 1 nuyen.gif to the city of Seattle that year.

Tax Evasion is very easy for the megacorps, you can assume that no company with extraterritoriality pays any taxes, or at most a negligible amount.

As for whats extraterritorial its generally as follows:
-Any clearly delineated property generally recognized as being owned by an extraterritorial corporation.

So, as an example, the 10th floor of a building could be leased by Ares as office space. The 10th floor is extraterritorial. The other floors aren't. But let's say that the 10th floor was a cubicle farm and 4 different corporations had people there. Ares couldn't claim that a guys desk was extraterritorial.

Cthulhudreams
I don;t want this question to be about seattle in particular. Corps have extraterritoriality across big chunks of the world.

That is a great quote about taxation, and thrusts things back to the 'government is broke' side of the equation, though that may just be state/municipal taxes.
Emperor Tippy
Extraterritoriality is simple: Any clearly delineated property generally recognized as belonging to a corp with extraterritoriality that said corp wants extraterritorial.

And a lot of people in this thread are operating under some very stupid assumptions.

1) The government doesn't get "fees" or anything else out of a megacorp (defined as anything with Extraterritoriality, or most AA's and AAA's).
2) The government gets next to no say in whether or not a piece of land is extraterritorial or not. Once it is owned by a corp with extraterritoriality, its entirely up to the corp.
3) Governments have no real power to do anything to any extraterritoriality corp.

Why are the above 3 things true? Because of the Corporate Court. All of the Big Ten want Extraterritoriality as strong as possible and they work together to keep it strong. They have bought the politicians to ensure that it stays strong and when that fails they out right black mail the governments (if the UCAS doesn't play along then no food gets to any UCAS city. Or their matrix service gets cut off. Or the police companies refuse to enforce the law. Or the power is cut off). National Governments exist solely at the sufferance of the Big Ten and only because the Big Ten doesn't want to deal with governing.
Cthulhudreams
Doesn't the CAS's OSI regulate megacorp licensing of extraterritoriality
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ May 15 2008, 08:24 PM) *
Doesn't the CAS's OSI regulate megacorp licensing of extraterritoriality


Not according to Corporate Download or Corporate Shadowfiles.

All AAA's have Extraterritoriality. Any other corp can petition the CC for Extraterritoriality. Most A and above corps have it.

A country can keep a corp out in various ways but once the corp is in, they tend to stay until they decide to leave.

As I said, the Big 10 want Extraterritoriality to be as powerful as they can make it and want to be the ones who regulate it. And the Big 10 get what the Big 10 want - by virtue of controlling the food supply, the power supply, the matrix, the politicians, and most police work; they also own space (so they can knock out a nations satellites on a whim); have Thor Shots, nukes, nano weapons, biowarfare agents, and their own armies.
vladski
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 15 2008, 07:01 PM) *
Extraterritoriality is simple: Any clearly delineated property generally recognized as belonging to a corp with extraterritoriality that said corp wants extraterritorial.

And a lot of people in this thread are operating under some very stupid assumptions.

1) The government doesn't get "fees" or anything else out of a megacorp (defined as anything with Extraterritoriality, or most AA's and AAA's).
2) The government gets next to no say in whether or not a piece of land is extraterritorial or not. Once it is owned by a corp with extraterritoriality, its entirely up to the corp.
3) Governments have no real power to do anything to any extraterritoriality corp.

Why are the above 3 things true? Because of the Corporate Court. All of the Big Ten want Extraterritoriality as strong as possible and they work together to keep it strong. They have bought the politicians to ensure that it stays strong and when that fails they out right black mail the governments (if the UCAS doesn't play along then no food gets to any UCAS city. Or their matrix service gets cut off. Or the police companies refuse to enforce the law. Or the power is cut off). National Governments exist solely at the sufferance of the Big Ten and only because the Big Ten doesn't want to deal with governing.


I beg to differ on teh highlighted portion of what you said. They aren't "stupid assumptions" (which is implying stupidity on the part of hte posters.) The people in this thread understand the "canon" of SR for the most part. What we are trying to do is fanwank the canon into making sense or minorly adjusting "canon" so that it does so in the larger sense.

A lot of us have a major problem believing that the large national governments, like the UCAS, would be able to support the huge standing armies, navies and air forces that exist BY canon. The money for these has to come from somewhere. Adjsuting a bit of canon to say that ET corps pay certain land fees to their hosting nations or that national citizen employees do indeed have to pay some taxes, or creating things like tariffs/duties on goods is hardly "stupid" and not an "assumption" at all. It's an effort to keep the flavor of SR solid without jsut handwaving and saying "Oh, that's canon.. that's the way it is." We want hte SR world to work and to keep its feel and we are discussing individual ways to make our own games work for us.

Vlad
DocTaotsu
No, no, we is all dumberz.

Obviously calling us stupid wants us to examine the validity of Tippy's claims.
Fortune
If you are going to be labeling the majority of us stupid, at least get it right.

QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 16 2008, 10:49 AM) *
Most A and above corps have it.


This is just plain not true.

As Nath quoted in the Shadow School thread ...

QUOTE (Corporate Download pg. 8-10)
A megacorp is a giant multinational, with revenues in the billions of nuyen. Megacorps make up only a tiny percentage of the world's corporations, but they control the vast majority of wealth, resources and market share. More importantly, megacorps benefit from corporate extraterritoriality, meaning they're considered the equivalent of a national entity in legal terms, entitled to their own laws, citizens, currencies, militaries and other tools of power.
[...]
The Corporate Court has designated a ranking system that divides multinational corporations into three categories : A, AA and AAA. [...] This rank determines whether the corp has extraterritoriality, and what powers it has on a global scale. [...]
A-Multinationals [...]
AA-Extraterritorial Megacorps [...]
AAA-Prime Megacorporate Status [...]


Also, as to Megacorporate payments ...

QUOTE (Corporate Download pg. 21)
The Corporate Court represents itself as the only authority by which extraterritorial corporations are bound. In practice, corps are still expected to respect national jurisdictions, pays taxes and otherwise act as good guests when inside national borders.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (vladski @ May 15 2008, 09:22 PM) *
I beg to differ on teh highlighted portion of what you said. They aren't "stupid assumptions" (which is implying stupidity on the part of hte posters.) The people in this thread understand the "canon" of SR for the most part. What we are trying to do is fanwank the canon into making sense or minorly adjusting "canon" so that it does so in the larger sense.

A stupid assumption doesn't make a person stupid. And the SR cannon mostly does stay internally consistent.

QUOTE
A lot of us have a major problem believing that the large national governments, like the UCAS, would be able to support the huge standing armies, navies and air forces that exist BY canon. The money for these has to come from somewhere. Adjsuting a bit of canon to say that ET corps pay certain land fees to their hosting nations or that national citizen employees do indeed have to pay some taxes, or creating things like tariffs/duties on goods is hardly "stupid" and not an "assumption" at all. It's an effort to keep the flavor of SR solid without jsut handwaving and saying "Oh, that's canon.. that's the way it is." We want hte SR world to work and to keep its feel and we are discussing individual ways to make our own games work for us.

Vlad


Very few corps are extraterritorial. Under a thousand world wide, and prolly closer to 200 or so. Yeah, removing the mega's takes away a big chunk of the potential money but even if taxed they wouldn't make up the majority of the money.

And no one said that corp employees don't pay taxes. If the employee is a citizen of a nation then they pay that nations taxes.

As for import fees and tariff's, sure the governments can collect them if they want. But the corps don't do it for them unless they get a cut. And if the feds start stationing people outside ever Weapons World to charge an import fee then people will complain - the megacorps own the news services and the politicians. They will ensure it.

And remember, a lot of the services currently provided by governments are provided by the corps in SR 4. Like the police. The Lonestar sourcebook outright states that traditional police work is at best a break even proposition, it is not a major money maker. The corps undercut the government prices, meaning that the government can get by on a smaller budget. Why do the corps do this? Because they can parlay that contract into a field that does make them money; to use Lonestar again, they sell information, use the prison population as gunie pigs, and provide security to smaller companies.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Fortune @ May 15 2008, 09:42 PM) *
If you are going to be labeling the majority of us stupid, at least get it right.

I never called anyone stupid.

QUOTE
This is just plain not true.

As Nath quoted in the Shadow School thread ...

Ok. So A corps don't have it, it just makes my point even more valid.

QUOTE
Also, as to Megacorporate payments ...

What I have been saying. Corps do respect national jurisdiction, pay taxes, and otherwise do act as good guests inside a nations borders. But the corps have gotten the laws changed so that national jurisdiction is vastly different from its current day incarnation, taxes are likewise different (and many do pay them to some nation at some point, like Ares pays taxes to the UCAS but not to Russia while Evo pays to Russia and not to the UCAS), and they act as good guests because the governments leave them alone.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Fortune @ May 15 2008, 09:42 PM) *
If you are going to be labeling the majority of us stupid, at least get it right.

I never called anyone stupid.

QUOTE
This is just plain not true.

As Nath quoted in the Shadow School thread ...

Ok. So A corps don't have it, it just makes my point even more valid.

QUOTE
Also, as to Megacorporate payments ...

What I have been saying. Corps do respect national jurisdiction, pay taxes, and otherwise do act as good guests inside a nations borders. But the corps have gotten the laws changed so that national jurisdiction is vastly different from its current day incarnation, taxes are likewise different (and many do pay them to some nation at some point, like Ares pays taxes to the UCAS but not to Russia while Evo pays to Russia and not to the UCAS), and they act as good guests because the governments leave them alone.
Fortune
Here are some links to earlier discussions related to this subject that might be of interest ...

Corp Talk
Extraterritoriality
Corporate Court
Corporate Law
Records of Extraterritoriality
Extraterritoriality
Walmart
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