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Cthulhudreams
So, due to a player in a game that is kicking off on the forums wanting to play a backwoods shamanistic type who shapechanges into a jaugar and rips peoples face off, I had to read the shapechange rules.

Wow, turning into a supercharged great cat is rather powerful. Shame you don't have a gun or armour, but it is still cool because it gives you a 2nd IP and sets all your stats to big numbers.

So I was thinking about it a bit more and eventually thought

"So why don't I like turn into a gorilla. Troll jackets and armoured clothes might even still fit, and I can probably get a gun customised for gorilla hands. Aiming and firing might be a problem" I'd read 'Hell Island' recently were the US army had modified a bunch of gorillas to use guns so that had spurred my thinking

So gorillas with assault rifles, viable, cheese tastic or what?
Zak
Reminds me of druids in the game you shall not talk about, abusing the sizing of gear to fit it for their statistically superior animal forms.

Go Legendary Ape. nyahnyah.gif
crizh
*cough*

Fashion.

*cough*
Stahlseele
shapeshift a troll or an ork and you won't even have that much difference to fight with. .
Pendaric
Its your game do as you wish/what your group allows.
In my game you would regret your choice however.
hyzmarca
Augmentation biodrone rules allow the opposition to have an army of rigged gorillas with miniguns. If you don't mind your GM throwing such an army at you, I see no problem with it.
hyzmarca
Augmentation biodrone rules allow the opposition to have an army of rigged gorillas with miniguns. If you don't mind your GM throwing such an army at you, I see no problem with it.
WeaverMount
Ok so regardless of what a horrible idea it would be to do to anyone, especially to a shadowrunner, do you think it's possible to implant the stirrup interface into a shape shifted human?
Stahlseele
other question: can the gorilla still talk?
WeaverMount
nope. They physically lack the ability to vocalize well enough to use human language. That's why we teach them to sign. Trodes and speakers though ought to let you fake it well enough. While it's not spelled out explicitly in the books, I'm sure that humans wouldn't be the first primates we developed datajacks for. Now finding non-human DNI drives might be a fun secondary objective for a run on research facility.
Stahlseele
the target keeps his non physical attributes, meaning he is still thinking like himself . . one COULD argue that trodes should work like usual
WeaverMount
IMO the there are only two options for the fine anatomy of a shape shifted individual. Either it now works exactly like the animal in question, or it is that nebulus anti science state like oricalcum. So either you need the chimp DNI drivers, or you can't do it at all
crizh
This was being discussed in the other Shapechange thread a couple of days ago and the consensus was that implanted cyberware, that had been paid for with Essence, molded seamlessly into the new form and continued to function.

So, a simple datajack would be all you needed to get around any communication problems.
Stahlseele
ah, yes, an ork shifted into a green tiger that talks . . heelloo battlecat *g*
toturi
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 8 2008, 05:36 AM) *
ah, yes, an ork shifted into a green tiger that talks . . heelloo battlecat *g*

And you have the power too.
Stahlseele
just why the heck do all of those things more or less work out in SR anyway? @.@
that can't be a coincidink! . . well, they could all have been on something good when writing the books *g*
and yes, being the mage and being able to own a weapon-focus sword and a focus that keeps up an STR Buff Spell you can, indeed, have the power o.O
Glyph
QUOTE (crizh @ Jun 7 2008, 01:16 PM) *
This was being discussed in the other Shapechange thread a couple of days ago and the consensus was that implanted cyberware, that had been paid for with Essence, molded seamlessly into the new form and continued to function.

So, a simple datajack would be all you needed to get around any communication problems.

An opinion from one poster is hardly a "consensus". If cyberware has been paid for with Essense, it melds into the shapechange as opposed to violently being ripped out of the shapechanger's body. But someone changed into a completely different form does NOT get the benefit of cybereyes, etc. There is nothing in the rules to support this, and it doesn't make sense in the context of a spell that changes you into a critter.


As far as communication goes, the increased use of augmented guard animals and biodrones would make finding communications gear for a dog, ape, etc. more feasible than it would have been in previous editions. And spells such as mindlink would still work.

I generally assume that the shapechange spell includes enough of the critter's basic instincts to do things such as flying for birds, climbing trees for apes, etc. I am not sure how human skills would translate, though. A human martial artist turned into an ape would have a completely different center of gravity, reach, sensory spectrum, and so on. So I have a hard time seeing a maxed-out martial arts skill smoothly translating to the new form.
crizh
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 8 2008, 09:05 AM) *
An opinion from one poster is hardly a "consensus". If cyberware has been paid for with Essense, it melds into the shapechange as opposed to violently being ripped out of the shapechanger's body. But someone changed into a completely different form does NOT get the benefit of cybereyes, etc. There is nothing in the rules to support this, and it doesn't make sense in the context of a spell that changes you into a critter.


When there is no dissenting opinion it's a consensus.

There is nothing in the rules to support your opinion either. Which was why it was being discussed. Simply bolding the word 'not' does 'not' make it so.

Shapechange is one of those spells with so much going on under the surface that it is probably best to hand wave most of it. I don't see any good reason to design a spell that is capable of mysteriously creating or destroying mass and not design it to integrate any cyber/medical implants the target may have. Equipment I can see leaving out because OR's vary and it could be complicated to successfully cast.
Glyph
I think it would be overly complicated, and not even that feasible, for a spell that only turns someone into critter form to alter artificial enhancements to work in that new form. But you are right, SR4 is vague on this where SR3 spelled it out more explicitly ("Cyberware, paid for with Essense, is transformed into the critter form but cannot be used in that form" - MITS, pg. 148). Hopefully this will be added to the FAQ someday - "What happens to cyberware when someone is shapechanged?"
ornot
I've always liked the use of shapechange as an offensive spell. That way you can 'Sheep' aggressors; or better yet, get a dog collar sustaining focus, cast Chihuahua Form on your mortal enemy, and you have a pet for life silly.gif
Stahlseele
untill he runs through a ward or something like that . . . and don't forget, it's the difference between target and new critter body that makes the spell so hard to cast . .
Screamin Demon
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jun 8 2008, 12:37 PM) *
"What happens to cyberware when someone is shapechanged?"


My opinion (As long as we are all posting out opinions) is that mages with cybernetics would not be able to use them as the spell targets them and not the highly technological objects (Object Resistance, anyone? Just because you paid for it with essence doesn't mean its not high tech metal and wires... Right?) stuck in them. I am considering house ruling that mages with cybernetics shouldn't be allowed to shape change at all...

In any case, how are human cybereyes going to work in any other form? Where does your bone lacing go when you turn into an invertebrate? It just won't work.

I could see someone inventing a higher drain version(Cyber Shapeshift or something), but you would be rolling against the object resistance (4+) of they cyberware that you are subtly shifting along with you as so it still functions.

Screamin Demon
Best opinion ever.
crizh
QUOTE (Screamin Demon @ Jun 9 2008, 06:32 AM) *
Where does your bone lacing go when you turn into an invertebrate? It just won't work.


Where does your spine go for that matter?
Apathy
Since SR3 spelled it out explicitly, and SR4 doesn't list any rules or fluff that states or implies any deviation from the prior ruling, it seems to me that it's reasonable to interpret that the ruling does not change. So shapechanging from a human with +4 strength from muscle aug to a rat, your rat form won't get to keep it's +4 strength.

I'd imagine that this could create some interesting situations, like being contacted by a mage who is shapechanged into something for a run, and is now afraid to change back because his pissed off employer might have triggered his kink bomb.
Dayhawk
The mage in my game runs around as a chimp with the multi sense illusion going, to appear human.

Personally I think it's complete cheese. But everyone voted and figured it was ok.
ornot
QUOTE (Dayhawk @ Jun 9 2008, 05:25 PM) *
The mage in my game runs around as a chimp with the multi sense illusion going, to appear human.

Personally I think it's complete cheese. But everyone voted and figured it was ok.


I'd have thought the -4 dice sustaining penalty would put paid to such behaviour, but I guess he could have loaded up on foci.

But then I like to have 'things man was not meant to wot of' being attracted to obvious magic users.
Dayhawk
The shapeshifting is quickened.

The illusion is a focus item.

So a human could shapeshift into a troll provided they have the min body to do so?
Stahlseele
is that allowed?
i thought only CRITTERS?
crizh
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 9 2008, 07:02 PM) *
is that allowed?
i thought only CRITTERS?



No, it's not.

Trolls are Paranormal Critters however you choose to slice it...
Jaid
QUOTE (Dayhawk @ Jun 9 2008, 12:59 PM) *
The shapeshifting is quickened.

The illusion is a focus item.

So a human could shapeshift into a troll provided they have the min body to do so?

in that case, it'll last roughly until he has to pass the first ward. which shouldn't be very long. after that either the quickened effect is lost and security is on it's way, or the quickened effect is not lost (and security is on it's way).

not exactly useful for a shadowrunner.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (crizh @ Jun 9 2008, 10:12 PM) *
No, it's not.

Trolls are Paranormal Critters however you choose to slice it...

racist pig ._.
trolls is people too! ;_;
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Dayhawk @ Jun 9 2008, 12:25 PM) *
The mage in my game runs around as a chimp with the multi sense illusion going, to appear human.

Personally I think it's complete cheese. But everyone voted and figured it was ok.


You could potentially pull a Clarence Beeks on the character some time.
Spike
I thought they were talking about actual Shapeshifters, not folks changing shape with a spell, right?

And if that was the case, I thought it was, at least at one point, canon impossible for a shapeshifter to have cyberware of any sort. Not because of the changing shape or the essence loss, or the fact that they were just really smart animals that could look like people...

... no, because their natural healing/regeneration would revert their body to its original state (cyberware free) regardless of essence paid, in minutes anyway.


Or has that, like grounding spells through focii, gone the way of the dodo?
Stahlseele
no, original SHAPESHIFTER who start out as animals with regeneration still get that problem . . but right now, talk is about metahuman characters being morphed from metahuman to xxx
Glyph
QUOTE (Dayhawk @ Jun 9 2008, 09:25 AM) *
The mage in my game runs around as a chimp with the multi sense illusion going, to appear human.

Personally I think it's complete cheese. But everyone voted and figured it was ok.


Remember that chimps can't talk, and that wards are fairly common, and that sustained/quickened spells are fairly obvious to astral sight. And that people will get resistance tests against the illusion every time.

His armor will also need to be custom-made. It's doubtful that a mere fashion spell would work, unless the mage casting it actually had some knowledge of armor design, and maybe chimp biology while we're at it. We're talking about a primate with fur (making clothing hotter and more uncomfortable), and joints that are quite a bit different than a human's.
Apathy
QUOTE (crizh @ Jun 9 2008, 03:12 PM) *
No, it's not.

Trolls are Paranormal Critters however you choose to slice it...

So, infirm human (Body 1) can shapechange to standard human (Body 3). When using 12 dice to cast, they average 4 successes, and so will get to add 4 to all their physical attributes, for B/A/R/S scores of 7/7/7/7.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Apathy @ Jun 9 2008, 09:13 PM) *
So, infirm human (Body 1) can shapechange to standard human (Body 3). When using 12 dice to cast, they average 4 successes, and so will get to add 4 to all their physical attributes, for B/A/R/S scores of 7/7/7/7.


But they're very Thor afterwards.
Fortune
As long as the Spell has a Force of 4 or more.
Squinky
My reading of the shapechange spell states that it can only turn you into normal critters....Pretty sure people aren't critters...
Fortune
And yet a ghoul is considered a 'critter', and it is merely a metahuman with a disease. I don't really see the problem.
WeaverMount
IMO:
critter = animal
para-critter = awakened animal

human = type of animal
meta human = type of awakened animal
Fortune
I have a problem with the description of all metahumans as being 'awakened'.
Apathy
The BBB does not list (meta)humans in their Critters list. However, they don't list most of the rest of the fauna of the world either. If going by the critter list in BBB, the only normal animals which you are allowed to shapechange into would be:
  • Dog
  • Great Cat (tiger, etc)
  • Horse
  • Shark
  • Wolf

If you want a more extensive list, you have to go back to the SR3 Critters book which (on page 19) lists a table of normal critters plus 'Metahuman Averages'. For me, this is sufficiently close to justify treating them as valid shapechange targets. YMMV
WeaverMount
QUOTE (Fortune @ Jun 9 2008, 11:06 PM) *
I have a problem with the description of all metahumans as being 'awakened'.


valid, that is a fairly reserved term. How would you refer to things that resulted from the awakening?
Mordinvan
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Jun 9 2008, 10:23 PM) *
valid, that is a fairly reserved term. How would you refer to things that resulted from the awakening?


I would just call them metahumans.
Awakened creatures would be those which can actively tap into mana somehow, as opposed to those which simply exist because its around.
The BBB doesn't call all meta's awakened, but only adepts, mages, or something with the capacity to tap mana.
stormcrow
I wouldn't call Metahumans paracritters, either, and not just because i'd have to duck a lot. There are metavariants of critters that are not Awakened or paracritters. The spell wouldn't convey any additional magic powers (ie. hellhound breath or bandersnatch camo or drake breath), but you also don't lose any you have (as long as you aren't in a snake form when you need to use finger gestures and chanting to spellcast.) Being a troll doesn't give you magical powers (like fiery breath or invulnerability to normal weapons.) If you can go for a bat or dolphin with sonar or a poisonous snake, why not a bigger, rougher-hewn version of yourself with some big lower canines and pointy ears? Or for that matter, if you can do a shark, alligator or lyre bird, why not a dwarf? Maybe make it a higher drain spell to turn into specific metahuman/human, requiring a tissue sample (blood, hair, saliva, etc.) Hmmmmm. Just my 0.02 of a drachma.
stormcrow
Pendaric
The intent of the wording is self evident, the Devs are trying to stop the, "I change into a specific person or para critter"
by stopping changing into metahumans or para critters.
In addition to this it is a return to a more direct interpretation of shape changeing spell from folklore.

Now the conjecture that metahumanity is just an evolved animal, though logical, is also a wilful perversion of the spirit of the wording. By people that know their doing it to.

Ultimatly everyone will run things their way in their games but really why lie to yourselves?
If you want a meta human shape shifting spell just make one up.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Pendaric @ Jun 10 2008, 06:53 AM) *
Now the conjecture that metahumanity is just an evolved animal, though logical, is also a wilful perversion of the spirit of the wording. By people that know their doing it to.


No I don't think it is. Critter = animal, meta = animal, therefore critter = meta. The book never refered to them as awakened.
Also spells like physical mask exist which provide the ilusion of looking like someone else, so having a manipultion spell which changes you to actually BE someone else shouldn't be that big a stretch.
hyzmarca
Critters also include plants, spirits, and bacteria colonies. The term is basically a catch-all for any potential opposition that isn't metahuman or machine.
Pendaric
The intent of the use critter here however is clear. Namely a non meta human/ non paracritter animal. I agree if you should want a spell to shape shift to a metahuman by all means make one.
However it is not shapechange per the book.

For example by your rational a power focus in the shape of a weapon must be a weapon focus.
By the rules of the game, abstract as they are, this is not the case. The lable here has the intent of specifing a limiting factor that is being willful ingored to get more out of the spell.
Am all for realism in game but guys, to quote a friend of mine, "Don't piss on my back and tell me its raining."
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