i can't believe people still mention realism in a discussion concerning magics . .
other question: would one be able to shapeshift critters into metahumans? or just into other critters?
PC: "i cast shapechange on the tiger!"
GM: "what do you want to turn the tiger into?"
PC: "A Pony!"

Silly is it not. But the entire concept of roleplaying is about the creation and maintainence of game world with its own consistant rules, that from a perspective is logical.
Magic has to make sense from within its own internal logic. Devil's in the detail and all that.

It is fun to sometime say magic can do anything! But it aint shadowrun.

All normal animals, plants, and even many which are the result of mana returning to the world are 'critters'. Humans/metahumans are just other examples of normal animals. There is no definition I'm aware of which would remove metahumanity from the animal kingdom, or place it in a seperate category which would exclude it from what I understand the 'critter' definition to be. Can you find a clear definition of critter in the BBB or any other 4th ed suplement which excluded metahumans, as the current one INCLUDES ghouls?


No it wouldn't the two are clearly defined, in terms of fuction, and are easily understood as seperate entities. Now you could make a focus which combined the two fuctions however.


Again, show me the rule which says metahuman /= critter
If I don't know its there I CAN NOT by definition willfully ignore it.

Your argument is, prove that metahuman does not mean critter. The obvious retort is, prove that it is the same.
This is a cyclical arguement.
My last word on the matter is in terms of description.
As such animal and (meta)human mean very different concepts in the manner of speech.
Critter is another word for animal. Ergo as descriptions go it has clear intent.

Yes, if I was to say "I'm an animal rights activist" you should assume I mean "animal" in the sense of cows, chickens, pigs, dogs, cat, fish, etc, and not Humans, Spongiozoa, and Protozoa. However if you were to read about a bacteria that would spread from any animal to any animal you should also assume that you could get it from your dog. It's always a matter of context. IMO in an RPG system it is valid to take a systematic approach and think of humans as a subset of animal, unless there is a game term (such as name-giver) that set them apart.

It seems all forms an animals are critter. Humans are in fact a kind of animal called primates, and as such until I'm told
metahuman =/ animal it will.


Ghoul = critter
Ghoul = metahuman + virus
so someone with a cold gets a whole new classification in the animal kingdom? that makes no sense

"Critter" is defined in relation to the player characters. It is analogous to the D&D "monster" Any NPC that isn't a member of a core playable race is a "critter" (AIs excepted).

maybe not, but in the SR World there are several strains of MMVV and several kinds of "Ghouls" too . .
the classification of SR is difficult to say the least, but for magic it is Meta-Human-Race) and "Everything-Else=Critter" . . i'd probably explain it with the mind of the magician . . i would only allow a totally racist psychotic probably toxic mage to view metahuman subraces as critters

I always though of "critter" as a game term, and meaningless to characters. It's fascinating think about it IC.

By RAW, Shapechange cannot turn someone into a Metahuman.




On the subject of what makes a critter paranormal, the book classifies them as awakened critters. Being awakened means you have a Magic attribute, and the single thing all the listed paracritters have in common is a Magic of at least 1.


EDIT: I just noticed that by RAW, you also cannot change into anything that has the same Body as you, or 1 point greater or less...

we can attribute that one to word-count i'd say . . it's probably meant to be of at least 2 points below and up to a maximum of 2 points above

Actually probably should say 'at most'.

Well, looks like you seem to have some good points.... guess I'll just have to tack 1 onto the drain attribute, and allow meta humans, or take one off the drain attribute and allow only metahumans. Either works I guess.

But now I ask the question, what happens if you cast a spell which changes you into a meta human, you get infected with HMVV cause the spells sustained with a focus or by someone else, and then change back? Are you still infected?

This is a caveat.

In this instance it admits to the truisms that, while almost all critters are non-human, that some non-zero percentage of critters are, technically, human and similarly humans are, technically, critters.

But it's not fun when one player character can use magic and the other can't, or magic evolves beyond a plot device and into a tool that anybody can use with proper training. Not to mention that I like Shadowrun in the sense that technology can beat magic in many ways, unlike some other RPGs.

So, dropping the range to touch and including (for flava) a requirement of a sample of the intended form (ie. Hair, blood, nail clipping, horn chip etc,) I present to you Specific Metahuman Form—Manipulation, Physical, Touch Range (both sample and target), Restricted Target (Voluntary), Sustained, with a Success Test. Drain is (F/2) [base] + 1 [physical] – 2 [touch range, instead of ShapeChange's LOS] – 1 [Restricted Target, Voluntary] + 0 [Sustained] + 0 [Phys Manipulation] +2 [Major Change] for a total drain of F/2. Even resisted the urge to twink with the additional -1 [Restricted Effect, requires sample]. I also dropped the 2 greater or lesser bit and nerfed the Phys Attribute adds by halfing them.


Specific Metahuman Form (Physical Manipulation)
Type: P Range: Touch Duration: S DV: F/2 Threshhold: 2
Specific Metahuman Form physically transforms a voluntary subject into a specific metahuman, though the subject retains their own mental attributes. A sample of the specific intended form is required, be it hair, nail clipping, saliva, horn chip, blood, skin sample, etc. Add 1 to the form's Base attribute Ratings for every 2 hits above Threshhold 2 that the caster generates. The target's Mental attributes remain unchanged.
This spell does not transform clothing and equipment. Magicians can still cast spells. The target's DNA, fingerprints, blood etc will test identical to that of the original metahuman. Attempts to imitate the original's voice receive a bonus equal to the net hits. Note that cyberware and bioware present in the original will not be replicated, regardless of success, though geneware may be, at the GM's discretion. At 2 successes, the duplication is close, but there are small differences in appearance noticeable to casual acquaintances. At 3 successes, only close acquaintances might notice. At 4 successes, the only differences are behavioral.

Enjoy! Now if only our campaign was an episodic drama with lots of downtime rather than a perpetually racing action movie! How the f*$(ing h%^ am i going to get 3 months of downtime to develop it? We've been playing once a week for over a year and game time has advanced less than 2 months.

I better get crackin' on it. At least i get a totem mod and a bound spirit mod to develop it. Pax,
stormcrow

PS. Alternately, one could limit the body to Target's +/- successes and drop the Threshhold 2.

Hmmm, same quotes, different spin

Could be interpreted according to your definitions as shapechange will allow you to turn into any of the metahumans, but not into a human.

Given that all of the various interpretations involve some breaking of common sense, from the RAW approach (Critter is a specific SR4 term! You can only shapechange into the Critters listed in the SR4 canon rules!) to the anything goes approach (Human = Animal = Critter, you can shapechange into a buff human and up your stats!), just pick the one you and your table are most comfortable with.

Am sorry what? You quote one line out of the entire post out of context, not on topic and making what point?
Are you trying to up your post count?

I'm actually just curious if any of the dev's out there who had a hand in the creation of this spell could tell us if the intent was to allow for you to change into metahuman or not.

Well, although not totally official, we can always look to the mock Runner's Companion preview, with the Dragons needing to use the Shapechange spell to appear in metahuman form.

Shhhhhhh,,,,

Don't bring that up again, we'll never hear the end of it.

does that even work?
if they make it like that, it will be the new ghoul as PC and ghouls as npc/critter issue . .

Your spine is part of what is magicaly effected to turn into critter meat, dork
The same magic could not target your cybernetic components without bypassing their inherent technological resistance first. Right? I'm not trying to inject non-awakened logic into the equation...

Are there any other opinions on tis leg of the thread?

So I'm totally working on my proof of concept guerrilla mage (ho ho ho) with shapeshift, physical mask and a HMG, adapted to be fireable via smartlink in a gyromount, which is I think the keystones of what you need, aside from some goggles so you can smartlink it up, and some armoured long johns in XXXXL

However, I need gorilla stats. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Firstly, your too kind. Dweeb.

Secondly, IANA Biologist, but...

Your skeleton is 70% rock. Hydroxylapatite to be precise. It is deposited by living cells that make up the other 30% of bone. It's inorganic and at a microscopic level dead. It's no more alive than your cyberware, but it's part of you, not an object, your cyber implant stopped being an object, in game terms, when you paid Essence for it, when you invested a part of your spirit in it.

And no, it doesn't have to overcome OR. It only has to overcome OR if the spell says so. Several spells that target objects do not have to overcome OR, it depends on what they do and how they are worded.

I am a biologist, and I'd argue that your skeleton was alive, even though it is inorganic in a strictly chemical sense. But then again, defining life is actually a philosophical sticking point, so there's little point going there.

Personally I'm in the "can't apply logic to magic" camp. Frankly, it's beyond our understanding, and so long as it's balanced and doesn't break the game I'm prepared to accept that it does weird shit. Hence, Shapechange or Critter Form does effectively convert 'ware into living tissue. Although this may have logical implications for how other spells work, or what happens to 'ware implanted into a metahuman while under the effect of a shapechange spell or any number of other things, I think it's pretty clear that the spell is inspired by stories of witches assuming the form of cats or wolves or whatever, and thus it should permit this function.

You could argue that, given the above assumption that 'ware is absorbed into living tissue, 'ware implanted while in a shapechanged form would revert into living tissue when the spell was ended. Since the 'ware does not impact on the original body's integrity, it thus could be argued that it has no essence cost. Hence a mage could arrange for a shed-load of 'ware being implanted into his tiger form, without it causing magic loss for his human form, yet be available when he casts his Tiger Form spell. This is stupid, and if you're a GM and your players are fucking with you like that they need to be hit with the 'tard bat. The same thing goes for most of the stupid shit that isn't explicitly covered in the rules.

In the end the extent to which any spell description can be interpreted in a given game is up to GM fiat, and if you're a player and you don't like the way your GM runs things, talk to them about it and/or find a new group.

Your cyberware is a part of you. Anything that it is paid for with essence is. The spell could no more change you without changing your 'ware than it could change you without changing your skin.

However the spell is extremely variable in effect. The extent to which it changes your skin and it's function is entirely up to the caster and varies from casting to casting.

Which leads onto my next discourse about Shapechange. What limits are there on the forms you can take? Magicians are not Zoologists. Is there any reason you cannot take the form of creatures of your own invention? So long as you stick to what is biologically possible why not? Are you limited to extant forms? Or can you use extinct forms?

Velociraptor anyone?

can you start and stop the change at will?
can you change so only part of you gets changed?
fangs, claws, eyes, ears etc . . can i make a magical catgirl? O.o

no
no
yes... but not with shapechange. you could certainly make a version that allows the form of catgirl. not sure i'd allow you to become something that has never existed, but i would probably allow you to become something that has existed at one point or another using shapechange. so, no catgirls or cthulhu... but you could shapechange into a dinosaur imo. provided the GM feels like coming up with stats for one, and it's within the appropriate body range, that is.

Canon says catgirls do exist, post Haley's comet and surge.

Guess they count as metahuman. See heated debate above.

my point was that catgirls are not a race. if a catgirl who had surged was to have a baby from a catboy father, the child is not necessarily going to be a catgirl/boy, or even necessarily to have SURGEd at all.

true, but if shapechange "can" turn you into an orc, a catgirl should not be beyond its ability.

Shapechange is a little bit broken if it lets you shapeshift into any metatype. It just becomes an 'Increase all physical attributes' spell for way to little drain. Especially if it stacks with cyberware.

In response to the whole 'bones are dead' argument, it doesn't really matter, because the stickler is the OR of complex technological cyberware. The OR of your own naturally crafted hydroxylapatite bones is non-existent. Make those bones processed metal though and suddenly magic is not so easy. I know the spell doesn't specify OR, but in my own games I am definitely going to rule it myself, otherwise an excellent spell is suddenly just way too good.

I honestly can not see how it would stack with cyber. It remakes the target into whatever shape the caster intends, and that would include any cyber/bio. It gives the target base line stats for that creature, and the spell description makes no reference to including cyber into its calculations.
So yes a human with a body 4+ might be able to change into an orc, but they would keep none of their cyberware. It still has the body +-2 restriction.
Also as has been noted there is a bit of debate about whether meta humans are viable alternate forms, I see no reason by not, if a chimp is a viable form humans and metahumans should be too as we're all primates.

So then any human with ANY cyberware at all suddenly has an OR of 4 or higher? Thats really quite a bad move, and not the intention of the spell at all. If that cyberware was paid for with essence then its part of the person and OR is not a factor. You 'might' be able to argue docking the mage 1 die per point of essence lost when casting it someone but I'm pretty sure thats only for 'health' spells and NOT manipulation spells.

The shapechange spell is obviously not designed to allow shifting into metahumans. Turning into an ape (to use human gear and maybe even armor) or a parrot (to be able to speak) are messing with what were intended to be limitations of the spell, but are still allowable. Turning into an ork or troll? No. Like Screaming Demon said, that just turns it into an "increase all physical Attributes" spell.

And why would it affect cyberware when petrify and turn to goo don't?

Because both those spells explicitly target only living tissue.

As I was trying to point out above, bone is not living tissue. It is a mineral excretion of living tissue, very similar to a pearl.

Assume for a moment that Shapechange does not result in a number of pre-determined codified forms but that the Magician merely sculpts his body into any form mundane tissue can take and integrate any non-living structure a mundane critter is capable of forming as part of it's phenotype.

If he can take the skeleton he already possesses and alter it to fit the new form and retain almost all of it's functionality why not the cyber-eyes or data-jack he has spent Essence on?

I'd guess because magic is really bad to messing with technology in the first place (see the concept of OR) and even worse at making functional high tech objects. Its entirely possible a encepholon can simply not be made small enough to fit in the skull of a house cat by a skilled technician let alone a magician who would need to pass an OR 4 test to break it letalone make it using magic. It makes more sense to simply treat the cyberware are 'part' of the person and have it turn into whatever X kind of flesh that portion of their anatomy is going to consist of when the spell active.

It's not an object, it's part of a living creature, it does not suffer from OR.

Surely it makes more sense to reduce the amount that the spell alters the implant if it's technological nature impedes such a transformation.

Just look at cyber like wired reflexes or skill wires, that is going to have to be altered substantially to make it fit inside of anything other then the current owner. I just don't think magic would know how to do this and keep the device working. Malfunctioning cyberware linked into your nervous system to that degree is likely going to be crippling > fatal, so its easiest to rule it just turns it into part of the creature you're becoming.

Just look at a pulmonary or lymphatic system, that is going to have to be altered substantially to make it fit inside of anything other than a man-sized primate.

The spell doesn't know how to keep these systems working when you Shapechange into a Spider Crab.

(The spell doesn't know anything according to the spell design rules...)

These biological systems are substantially more complicated than Cyberware and are a perfect example of why Shapechange in particular needs a metric shit ton of Handwavium injected into it to stand up to anything more than cursory scrutiny.

Magic should follow the path of least resistance. The difficulty of transforming cyberware into flesh and bone is substantial compared to simply reshaping it.

The main reason I continue to argue this point is that I have always admired SR's magic system for it's elegance and realism. Obviously there are bits of I don't like, the whole OR thing is game-balance bull-crap, but generally it's the sort of thing that one could reasonably envisage turning out to be true in three years time.

This whole discussion has suspicious similarities to nerfing that occurred to a certain 'shapechangey' spell in a certain 'other' system. It saddens me to see that mind-set creep into SR. OMG Magicians are massively powerful!!

No shit Sherlock.

Just envision what you could achieve with even the most minor of these abilities. The world would be your mollusc of choice.

We shouldn't be scrambling around de-powering Magicians, we should be having fun exploring the possibilities of what could be achieved with creative use of these powers.

I'm not argueing high or low powered for anything. I'm just saying my understanding of SR magic is it would be easier for it to work with flesh then metal. So for ease of use it would turn the metal into flesh.
If the system didn't have OR I would be far more inclined to agree with you.

Shapechange had always been very limited. It turns the subject into a single non-mtahuman non-magical animal of the spellcaster's choice - cyberware and bioware are transformed as well and do not function as such in the new form. It has always been that way. The nerfing is in the Body difference limitation. Previously, it was difficult to turn a Body 1 character into an elephant but not impossible.

Actually, certain metals would be easier to work than flesh. Raw Gold in a stream-bed or still embedded in rock ought to be substantially easier to affect with magic than flesh, flesh gets a resistance roll after all.

I certainly can't agree that it is in any way easy to turn Highly processed goods into flesh. If you absolutely must conclude, either that a particular piece of cyberware is incompatible with a particular form or that cyberware cannot be retained at all while Shapechanged, then it would be much easier to say that it has disappeared into the Biro-Zone along with all your excess mass and other inconvenient stuff your new form does not possess.

As to OR that's a rant for another day.

Mostly how I feel about it, and yes I DO HATE the concept of OR.

I feel the same way. Even if cyberware were retained, I don't see the spell re-working all of that nano-implanted micro circuitry so that the golden retriever that you have turned into has functioning cybereyes. Either the spell affects the cyberware, in which case it is changed with everything else when the new form is assumed, or it doesn't, in which case the character is seriously fragged up. Since the former interpretation is more in line with how the spell has always been treated before, it's the one I would use.

As mentioned before, isn't Shapechange what dragons use to take metahuman form? And can't they, in fact, take on different metahuman forms?

no, for certain dragons there was HUMANOID FORM which was a dragon only kinda critter power . .