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crizh
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jun 24 2008, 02:11 PM) *
The point is that once you cracked a program in SR, you have it's source code. So the whole underground circulating cracked copies is open source, but not free software.


Of course IRL this ain't the case, which I suppose is the source of my dislike of the idea of using warez. Without access to the sourcecode there's no way of altering the code or spotting any Malware that has been added.

Of course the 'Free' in FOSS doesn't refer to cost, the licence does not prohibit selling binaries...
Ryu
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 24 2008, 01:47 PM) *
Is there even a software autosoft?

I said that because in the book it never mentions them being able to do anything except use programs and roll skill + programs, but it was pointed out to me that pilots totally can just use the autosoft.


There is no software autosoft (that I know of), and agents do not per se have the software skill. Unfortunately (for my plan), the software skill does not allow defaulting.
Grinder
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 24 2008, 02:20 PM) *
bah, who fears the troll? this holy book repels him anyways wink.gif


Do not speak those words lightly. Better wait until the trollman has read the book. And better take cover then. wobble.gif
crizh
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 24 2008, 12:47 PM) *
Is there even a software autosoft?


There's the Profession Autosoft which can contain any technical or knowledge skill.

A brief scan doesn't reveal any text that would disallow a construct with the Software skill from using it to write/patch/alter programs.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Grinder @ Jun 24 2008, 05:30 PM) *
Do not speak those words lightly. Better wait until the trollman has read the book. And better take cover then. wobble.gif


i never log on to dumpshock without checking that my asbesto firewall is freshly patched and set for vulcano wink.gif

btw, seems that wired-3 and AR is still the way to go if one wants to hack on the safe...
Dashifen
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jun 24 2008, 07:46 AM) *
Personally, I would not let my players use dedicated patching agents.


Honestly, I think that's what the Fetch Module was targeted at. Get your fetch module geared up with it's browsing capabilities and tell it to find you all your patches.
LabRat
QUOTE (crizh @ Jun 24 2008, 03:39 PM) *
There's the Profession Autosoft which can contain any technical or knowledge skill.
A brief scan doesn't reveal any text that would disallow a construct with the Software skill from using it to write/patch/alter programs.


It is a drone autosoft
PlatonicPimp
OK, so I have my server drone from the gear chapter do all my updating. Programing capability and the processing power to do it.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Antumbra @ Jun 23 2008, 05:21 PM) *
When I started reading the Paragon list I though "There had better be a Deus Ex reference"

I do like the work-around to not retconning the rules problems by adding some corrections as "Tweaks" - page 39 and the techno power boost on p137 for example.


True... but sadly a lot of those good fixes being tweaks means that they aren't used in official SRM
crizh
QUOTE (LabRat @ Jun 24 2008, 04:47 PM) *
It is a drone autosoft



Hmmm, I was sure it wasn't.

Regardless, there is no reason an Agent can't run a drone autosoft. A pilot is just a specialised Agent after all.
Ryu
What does a Programming Environment cost?
crizh
QUOTE (Ryu @ Jun 24 2008, 05:16 PM) *
What does a Programming Environment cost?



I'd say it would be reasonable to assume circa 50k nuyen.gif .

An Enchanting Shop can be rented for 100 nuyen.gif per day or bought for 50k nuyen.gif .
hobgoblin
i found a fun little item in the shadowtalk at the start of page 133.

whistling ones way into a node, now where have i heard of something similar? wink.gif
Sombranox
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 24 2008, 11:41 AM) *
i never log on to dumpshock without checking that my asbesto firewall is freshly patched and set for vulcano wink.gif

btw, seems that wired-3 and AR is still the way to go if one wants to hack on the safe...


Unless the GM uses that nice rule tweak they proposed in the book of making AR hacking limited to 1 IP regardless of physical IPs. Which I honestly am seriously considering for my group. I want to bring back the days of fully immersed VR being the only way to hack like a god and to reiterate that direct brain interaction, especially Hot Sim, is faster than a wired up sammie could ever hope to be in the flesh. But that's me. I have a soft spot for bygone decker days.


Edit to add: Of course, I _do_ love them for adding the Simsense Accelerator modification (15000, avail 14 though damnit). Adds another IP and is stackable with hot sim and simsense booster. Only exception to the 4 IP max. True hackers blaze at 5 IP.

QUOTE (Ryu @ Jun 24 2008, 12:16 PM) *
What does a Programming Environment cost?

Programming suite (rating 1-5) is Avail 6, rating x 1000.

100 per day to use a nexus Programming Environment that halves the programming time.

Can't use both together.
Cheops
QUOTE (Sombranox @ Jun 24 2008, 07:55 PM) *
Programming suite (rating 1-5) is Avail 6, rating x 1000.

100 per day to use a nexus Programming Environment that halves the programming time.

Can't use both together.


Sure you can.
Sombranox
QUOTE (Cheops @ Jun 24 2008, 04:23 PM) *
Sure you can.



Well...damn. I guess I was caught with a bit of SR3 on my shirt since you couldn't use programming suites with mainframe programming back then.

It doesn't say anywhere in unwired that you can't, though. So you're right.

I'd think that the programming suite and programming environment are both environments to be programming in, so you can't really be in both at the same time. But if the programming suite is just a set of helper tools, then I guess you could load it up and use it inside the environment.

That could really cut down nicely on programming times. Hmmm.
Ryu
As my hacker will have a nexus, he will want to run a Programming Environment. I do not want to rent time on one, I want to own one.

A programming-facility would cost 100.000¥. Substracting half of that for a powerful nexus and a programming suite would support the suggested 50k¥.
hobgoblin
hmm, some top level coders, using R5 suits and have access to a programming environment should be cranking out code in no time.

a single coder with 6 in stat, skill and access to it all can crank out a R6 agent in 6 months (using the buying hits rule).

ugh, using temawork test with bought successes becomes silly weak. one is looking at 20 extra top level coders with suites before it gives any real effect on the numbers...
crizh
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 24 2008, 10:06 PM) *
ugh, using temawork test with bought successes becomes silly weak. one is looking at 20 extra top level coders with suites before it gives any real effect on the numbers...


It's about 16 to 1 isn't it.

A team of 17 identical coders could do the job in half the time of 1.

They'd be far better of taking one app each and coding an entire suite in parallel.

Which is exactly how a imagine an Open-source Tribe would work. Twenty Five to Thirty hackers each working on one or two apps for about 3 months could do the whole suite. A couple of days coding a month by each of them keeps them SOTA.
hobgoblin
16 to 1 indeed.

and splitting it up makes more sense then these results.

hell, thats how any large project is done these days. lots of smaller sub-projects that come together to form a larger one in the end.
Ryu
QUOTE (crizh @ Jun 24 2008, 11:23 PM) *
It's about 16 to 1 isn't it.

A team of 17 identical coders could do the job in half the time of 1.

They'd be far better of taking one app each and coding an entire suite in parallel.

Which is exactly how a imagine an Open-source Tribe would work. Twenty Five to Thirty hackers each working on one or two apps for about 3 months could do the whole suite. A couple of days coding a month by each of them keeps them SOTA.


Neo-Anarchist Open-Source Tribes. I´m so stealing that for my hacker...
Sir_Psycho
Simsense Accelerator. Yes.

(It's so being installed in my brasierre commlink ASAP)
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (crizh @ Jun 24 2008, 03:23 PM) *
It's about 16 to 1 isn't it.

A team of 17 identical coders could do the job in half the time of 1.

They'd be far better of taking one app each and coding an entire suite in parallel.

Which is exactly how a imagine an Open-source Tribe would work. Twenty Five to Thirty hackers each working on one or two apps for about 3 months could do the whole suite. A couple of days coding a month by each of them keeps them SOTA.

Steals Idea, and implements same. grinbig.gif

WMS
Prime Mover
Only one page of new programs in ToC? Anything good? Any old programs brought back with new twist?
Zen Shooter01
This may have been discussed, but can anyone tell me why my team's hacker shouldn't be on a futon in Denmark while the PCs are running in Hong Kong? Why not enjoy the physical safety of geographic distance and the advantages of VR? Why would the hacker use AR?
Dashifen
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Jun 24 2008, 07:14 PM) *
Only one page of new programs in ToC? Anything good? Any old programs brought back with new twist?


Four new programs are added, one to find and corrupt data and files without deleting them, another to reduce the effectiveness of programs against the hacker without crashing them, a program to bork the matrix attributes of a target, and finally one to remove viruses and malware.

QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Jun 24 2008, 07:19 PM) *
This may have been discussed, but can anyone tell me why my team's hacker shouldn't be on a futon in Denmark while the PCs are running in Hong Kong? Why not enjoy the physical safety of geographic distance and the advantages of VR? Why would the hacker use AR?


Because the site of the hack may not have access to the matrix, it might be within a Faraday cage, the team might benefit from the hacker providing encryption and other spider like capabilities to the team in real time, the hacker might be able to better adjust to situations by actually being able to see the situation (e.g., being a part of the tacnet for the team), the hacker might need to interact with a skinlinked device or hack one of the drones from Arsenal that can only be hacked by interacting with its rail ..............
Irian
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Jun 25 2008, 02:19 AM) *
This may have been discussed, but can anyone tell me why my team's hacker shouldn't be on a futon in Denmark while the PCs are running in Hong Kong? Why not enjoy the physical safety of geographic distance and the advantages of VR? Why would the hacker use AR?


What does your hacker do if the teams enters a building that is sealed against WiFi, so that it's systems can only be accessed from the inside? Isn't such an example even in the core book?
CloisterCobra
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Jun 25 2008, 12:19 PM) *
This may have been discussed, but can anyone tell me why my team's hacker shouldn't be on a futon in Denmark while the PCs are running in Hong Kong? Why not enjoy the physical safety of geographic distance and the advantages of VR? Why would the hacker use AR?


It's a valid tactic, the only issue is when the opponents break out jammers, or when you are going into Matrix-isolated areas. In fact there is a new lifestyle in Wireless for people who live full-immersion and never come out of the Matrix.

Using AR can be a safety thing. Some people don't believe the +2 dice for online actions cancels the disadvantacge that you can fry your lobes.

Cheers
CC
Cheops
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Jun 25 2008, 12:19 AM) *
This may have been discussed, but can anyone tell me why my team's hacker shouldn't be on a futon in Denmark while the PCs are running in Hong Kong? Why not enjoy the physical safety of geographic distance and the advantages of VR? Why would the hacker use AR?


Plus since Routing doesn't go through Passive or Hidden Nodes anymore it is actually easy for a corp facility to be "offline" but still be a wireless hotzone. There will be a lot more runs where the Hacker actually has to go into the facility.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Ryu @ Jun 24 2008, 05:42 PM) *
Neo-Anarchist Open-Source Tribes. I´m so stealing that for my hacker...


You have to, otherwise you cannot use programs, unless you're going to let your agents patch your own products.
Synner667
QUOTE (Sombranox @ Jun 24 2008, 08:55 PM) *
Unless the GM uses that nice rule tweak they proposed in the book of making AR hacking limited to 1 IP regardless of physical IPs. Which I honestly am seriously considering for my group. I want to bring back the days of fully immersed VR being the only way to hack like a god and to reiterate that direct brain interaction, especially Hot Sim, is faster than a wired up sammie could ever hope to be in the flesh. But that's me. I have a soft spot for bygone decker days.


Edit to add: Of course, I _do_ love them for adding the Simsense Accelerator modification (15000, avail 14 though damnit). Adds another IP and is stackable with hot sim and simsense booster. Only exception to the 4 IP max. True hackers blaze at 5 IP.

Personally, I can't see how doing things at the literal speed-of-thought in a VR environment can't be fastest option.

In simple terms of order of speed, it should be...
Keyboard/mouse
augmented reality
full virtual reality

Can just about agree that a wired reflex hacker using augmented reality would be fast, since he can physically push buttons and assess data...
...But would a hacker, who supposedly devotes his time and resources to computer related stuff, spend that much of his money on wired reflexes ??

Surely the money would be better spent on hacking hardware and bleeding edge software ??


Personally, the whole ability of people to outmanoeuvre dedicated software strikes me as wishful thinking and coolness factor...
...Rather than being based on any sort of computer hardward/software reality - but then, that would take away one of the supposed pillars of what cyberpunk is supposed to be about.

I don't software, just rating for my hackers - effectively averaging all the software...
...Except for limited edition/limited use "specials" [like the Kuang Mk11 Intrusion Software, from Neuromancer]
Ryu
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 25 2008, 05:54 AM) *
You have to, otherwise you cannot use programs, unless you're going to let your agents patch your own products.


I think my char would be able to pay for his cracked patches, too. I´m afraid agents are missing the Software Skill, and are therefore limited to searching me my patches on the web.
Starglyte
Anything on Static Zones and/or how tech gangs can set up the matrix in the poorer parts of the sprawl? Was wondering how much of this can be used in the upcoming Feral Cities.
Ancient History
Feral Cities addresses many of those issues in-character.
Starglyte
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jun 25 2008, 07:08 PM) *
Feral Cities addresses many of those issues in-character.


Cool. Looking forward to it.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Jun 22 2008, 07:44 AM) *
I'm more than willing to answer any questions about Programmable ASIST Biofeedback.
Why do the higher rated PAB units still require multiple racks of rack-mount equipment like they did in the 2050s?

This is a mature, decades old technology that only seems to require two things, a neural connection and a moderately high ammount of computational processing power to selectively edit a Dir-X signal. Both of those are available in compact formfactors in 2071.

Rack-mount high rating PAB units made sense back in the early 2050s era, back when PAB was a developing technology and cyberdecks could be manufactured easier and cheaper as "Breadboarded" desktop units. However, surely a 2070s era comlink offers up the same processing power as a full rack of breadboard-style equipment. And if not a single commlink, certainly multiple commlinks clustered together, or on the ouside, one of the smaller, laptop-sized instances of Nexi Hardware. And yet, the same racks of equipment are requried for a 2070s high-end PAB unit.

While I understand the usefullness of the controlled clinical environment to the process, couldn't this have been achieved by capping the effective rating of the PAB unit if it's used outside of a Medical Shop/Facility (or even a Psychological Shop/Facility if you don't mind introducing another Kit/Shop/Facility type to the game)? Especially since those are more likely to ensure a clinical setting than having non-portable PAB units is.



==========
QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 22 2008, 11:45 AM) *
there seems to be a deliberate aversion to exponents and logarithms in Shadowrun development, at least as I perceive it.
I think this goes back to the cyberdeck construction rules from Virtual Realities and Virtual Realities 2.0. Both systems were hardly workable without a scientific calculator, something that generated a lot of negative feedback from the general fanbase, even though numbers junkies loved it.




==========
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 24 2008, 07:52 AM) *
hmm, the art on p166 looks like a lawsuit waiting to happen...
This is Shadowrun. Since the first rulebook 19 years ago, there's been a long tradition of artwork that's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

  • The Walther Palm Pistol's original art was Deckard's gun from Blade Runner.
  • Ares Predator? That's Robocop's gun.
  • The illustration of a "7th Generation Cyberterminal" in the original core rulebook's equipment chapter is instantly recognizable as an Apple Extended Keyboard from the 80s-era Macintoshes (and was omitted entirely in later printings).
  • The tusker with a mowhawk picking his nose with his middle finger that was on the first page of the chapter on Metahumans? Similar enough to the logo of "The Orc's Den," a London gaming store, that later printings of the first edition core rulebook actually had to carry a disclaimer that stated the artwork "in no way implies an endorsement or any other relationship" between FASA and the store.


Of course, Shadowrun isn't unique to artwork that makes the legal department squirm. Ask any Classic Battletech fan about the "Unseen 26" and Harmony Gold.
Cheops
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Jun 26 2008, 02:18 AM) *
Of course, Shadowrun isn't unique to artwork that makes the legal department squirm. Ask any Classic Battletech fan about the "Unseen 26" and Harmony Gold.


I'm too lazy to look for BT players. Those of you here: please to explain? Mercy Buckets.
Cadmus
QUOTE (Cheops @ Jun 25 2008, 10:22 PM) *
I'm too lazy to look for BT players. Those of you here: please to explain? Mercy Buckets.



Rifleman,Battlemaster,locast, and a load of others, I was always more of an archer pilot my self smile.gif but then I played taurians too ...damn innersphere smile.gif
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Cheops @ Jun 25 2008, 10:22 PM) *
I'm too lazy to look for BT players. Those of you here: please to explain? Mercy Buckets.


Here's the Cliffnotes version. In Japan, a mecha-based anime series called Macross was produced, and the Intellectual Property rights to the mech designs used in that series got licensed out to several different Japanese companies, including a couple of toy manufacturers. Meanwhile, a US company called Harmony Gold negotiates with the producers for the right to take the anime, drop it in a blender with two other unrelated anime, to produce a packaged-for-US-tv-syndication series that they wanted to call Robotech. Harmony Gold also wanted the exclusive control over the toy manufacturing rights for the US, to ensure that any Macross related toys produced in the US had the Robotech brand name slapped on them. The producers agreed to both these terms, not knowing that one of the Japanese toy manufacturers was in negotiations to sub-license a handful of mecha designs to a US game publisher, FASA, for use in a tabletop wargame they were developing, called BattleDroids. Anyway, Robotech comes out, and FASA's wargame comes under the name BattleTech (the change in name due to a call from Lucasfilm regarding the ownership of "Droids" as a registered trademark), and sooner or later, someone notices that the mecha designs from two unrelated US-based franchises are identical.

After much lawyering later, Harmony Gold and FASA come to a settlement that stipulates that FASA will no longer use any Macross-originated designs in its Battletech imagery. This stipulation was carried forward when FASA Interactive was sold to Microsoft and the rights to the non-electronic implementations of the Battletech were sold to Wizkids, and also carried forward when Wizkids licensed out the pen-and-paper game to FanPro and later Catalyst Game Labs.

If you're really curious, here's the mecha that you will not see any more in their originally published designs:
[ Spoiler ]
Synner667
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Jun 26 2008, 06:03 AM) *
Here's the Cliffnotes version. In Japan, a mecha-based anime series called Macross was produced, and the Intellectual Property rights to the mech designs used in that series got licensed out to several different Japanese companies, including a couple of toy manufacturers. Meanwhile, a US company called Harmony Gold negotiates with the producers for the right to take the anime, drop it in a blender with two other unrelated anime, to produce a packaged-for-US-tv-syndication series that they wanted to call Robotech. Harmony Gold also wanted the exclusive control over the toy manufacturing rights for the US, to ensure that any Macross related toys produced in the US had the Robotech brand name slapped on them. The producers agreed to both these terms, not knowing that one of the Japanese toy manufacturers was in negotiations to sub-license a handful of mecha designs to a US game publisher, FASA, for use in a tabletop wargame they were developing, called BattleDroids. Anyway, Robotech comes out, and FASA's wargame comes under the name BattleTech (the change in name due to a call from Lucasfilm regarding the ownership of "Droids" as a registered trademark), and sooner or later, someone notices that the mecha designs from two unrelated US-based franchises are identical.

After much lawyering later, Harmony Gold and FASA come to a settlement that stipulates that FASA will no longer use any Macross-originated designs in its Battletech imagery. This stipulation was carried forward when FASA Interactive was sold to Microsoft and the rights to the non-electronic implementations of the Battletech were sold to Wizkids, and also carried forward when Wizkids licensed out the pen-and-paper game to FanPro and later Catalyst Game Labs.

If you're really curious, here's the mecha that you will not see any more in their originally published designs:
[ Spoiler ]

Wow.

I knew about the BattleDroids -> BattleTech changeover, and the 3-in-1 butchering they did for the TV shows...
...But didn't know about the multiple licensing issue.

Looking at your synopsis, it's interesting that FASA ended up in court but not the sub-licensing toy manufacturer, who I'd have thought would be the relevant party and the ones responsible for any infringement.

Can't see it being "Classic BattleTech" when most of the Classic Mechs aren't there anymore.
hobgoblin
most likely because both harmony gold and fasa where usa based while the sub-license one was japanese. and the license harmony gold had covered usa only.
RobertB
The original Technical Readout with all of the "Unseen" will never leave my gaming collection. smile.gif It's as good as a Dieties and Demigods with Cthulhu.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Synner667 @ Jun 26 2008, 03:12 AM) *
Looking at your synopsis, it's interesting that FASA ended up in court but not the sub-licensing toy manufacturer, who I'd have thought would be the relevant party and the ones responsible for any infringement.

That's where you have to start digging a little deeper and get into the non-cliffnotes version.

One, FASA was actually dealing with a toy import company on this side of the Pacific, who was handling US rights negotiation for the Japanese toy company, so there's actually another layer of separation between FASA and the original producers of Macross.

Two, because Harmony Gold and FASA ultimately settled out of court, no judge has actually weighed in on the validity of each company's claims; had it gone to trial, a judge may very well have found that the deal that Harmony Gold made for the US toy rights was invalid, because those rights had previously been given to the Japanese toy manufacturer, who were in a legitimate position to sub-license them to FASA via that US toy importer.

Three, this whole mess might have never come about had FASA not initated a lawsuit of their own first. At the time, Harmony Gold was not particularly aware of what was going on in the Tabletop Gaming Market past their own license with Palladium to publish Macross and Robotech RPG books. Given the strongly worded art copyright notices in the front of all the Palladium Macross/Robotech books, I think Palladium was aware of the connection, but they never bothered to pass that info back up to Harmony Gold.

But, such a sleeping pitbull wouldn't lay dormant forever. Back in the early 90s, there was a US-produced animated TV show of the giant war-mecha genre, called Exo-Squad. One day, it came to the attention of FASA (perhaps through a report from the producers of the BattleTech cartoon that was in direct competition with Exo-Squad) that one of the mecha designs used on Exo-Squad was strikingly similar to an original and iconic FASA mech design, the MadCat, and that they were even marketing toys on that design. Now FASA's rightfully proud of the MadCat, to the point of using it in logos and video game box covers and offering it up whenever they need a single mech to represent just what Battletech is all about. Interestingly enough, the MadCat was developed at FASA as a hybrid of two popular earlier mechs, the Marauder and the Catapult, the first of which is originally a Macross design. Many of the other mechs on Exo-Squad resembled mechs that FASA had been publishing for years, but they weren't as concerned over those, since they had licensed those designs, and not developed them in house. However, to protect their rights to the mech design that they did produce in house, the MadCat, they sue the toy manufacturer, Playmates.

And this is where it backfires. Playmates mentions the lawsuit to Harmony Gold, because most of the other mech designs in Exo-Squad were Macross designs that Playmates had acquired the license to through Harmony Gold. Harmony Gold starts reading BattleTech books, and issues their lawsuit as a countersuit.
hobgoblin
oh what a tangled web of licenses those lawyers weave...

makes one wonder what kind of legal nightmare exist between the big 10 of SR...
Blade
Why didn't they just settle this with mechas? frown.gif
hobgoblin
because mechas are a physics nightmare...
CanRay
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 26 2008, 10:09 AM) *
because mechas are a physics nightmare...

And Dragons aren't?
Blade
You mean I can't have one when I grow up? frown.gif
Prime Mover
Any mention of teleporting nodes,one way nodes or other options mentioned in BBB.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Jun 26 2008, 11:29 AM) *
Any mention of teleporting nodes,one way nodes or other options mentioned in BBB.


Not that I recall.
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