And in the end, they don't do much - they are for improvising on the fly only.

damn!! I just now see this thread!!! I have to get this book right away!

Cheers!

Max

When I started reading the Paragon list I though "There had better be a Deus Ex reference"

There was!

##

I do like the work-around to not retconning the rules problems by adding some corrections as "Tweaks" - page 39 and the techno power boost on p137 for example.

What I don't get is that access ID 'limitation' doesn't seem particularly limiting. And by particularly, I mean at all.

What is a bigger bummer is that they are making cracked software degrade automatically. That really does backhandedly crack down on agent smith for players - just not corporations.

Question for the team: If I code my own software,

A) Does it have copy protection

B) Does it degrade

C) Is the access ID locked meaning I need to write a new agent for each iteration

If the answer is any of those questions is yes how does shrinkwrap software work?

If you code that in as an option when you write your program. P114 & P108



Yes, unless you patch it regularly. P118



I'm not sure about this one.



A: They have copy protection (& registration)
B: Someone patches it on a regular basis, and the registration allows you to get those patches automatically, ensuring that the programs don't degrade.

Cheers,
CC

C in particular is a bit of a sticking point.

The prime directive is sometimes "do not raise an alert". Five attackers with significant chance of being detected will often not cut it.

A copied agent may be patched in order to give it a separate unique access ID with a Logic + Software (Rating x 3, 1 week) Extended Test.

P111.

Cheers
CC

Is it just me or do these tests sound awfully long? If you need weeks to update one program, but they degrade every month... Sounds like to much rules just to drive the hacker's player nuts. I never understood why deckers had to deal with this whole SOTA-BS (sorry), but noone else had. Why not mages? Magic could change every month - call it "astral space flux" or something like this

It is more or less only a matter of game balance. Cyberware and spells cannot be copied or have to be paid with karma, so the hacker has to pay for something else (at least that´s my theory). SOTA for Hackers smells bad and is sooooo SR3. This has nothing to do with streamlining.

SYL

I agree Irian, the SOTA rules mainly affecting Hacker types is very one sided, and you make some good points.

WMS

I don't know what you're talking about. That was a consular chapter on a diplomatic mission. =i)

Question: Are there rules for "Black Market Software"? Not cracked software, but software by other Hackers, which won't degrade, but doesn't force you to worry about what big-bad-company will do with your data... IIRC there was even a Shadowland-Shop for decker software in one of the old Matrix books, wasn't there?

Another idea: If software degrades that easily, there should be groups of hackers, everyone invests some time to keep ONE program Up-To-Date and shares it with all others and gets the newest versions from them in turn... This way, a group of, let's say a dozen hackers can always have rather Up-To-Date programs without having to invest that much time. Kind of a magical group for hackers

Its because players fit in to a world and in that world bedroom programmers don't maintain whole suites of professional level software singlehandedly.

P110, you can get Open source programs, they coast 50% of the usual cost and degrade normally, but if you have a Warez Group contact he can get the patches for you, effectively making Open Source programs free, or you could contribute patches of your own in exchange. The GM has some optional rules for limiting them (like if they get out of hand he can cap the ratings).

Cheers
CC

So given that, and the average computer programmer will take, months to patch an agent, how can you even BUY agents? Surely it is not acutally economic for the companies to sell them.

I have two questions for you in rebuttal:

1. How long does it take you to make a hamburger.
2. Ever been to McDonalds?

Well, Teamwork tests are marvellous. Don't forget that
A) The rules are really focussed towards Shadowrunners, rather than software development firms
B) If you have an average Wageslave coder working on cutting edge hardware with moderate or above average skill (6+4) on a team of fifty you're probably not going to have any issue.

Cheers
CC

Though the Open Source bit is an optional rule and the last paragraph of it suggests that some GMs would be smart to limit open source programs to rating 4 max.

That said, pg 94 Piracy section you can do a Data Search + Browse (8, 1 day) extended to find a pirate network and don't need to find another til that one gets taken down, which seems to be completely up to the GM when that happens.

After finding said pirate network, you make a Data Search + Browse (Availability + Program Rating, 1 combat turn) extended test to find any program you can dream of. If you glitch, you can't find the program on that network and have to find another network.

Assuming you don't glitch, you can find and download the program for 10% the cost of the street value. You can also find patches for 10% the cost of the difference between the original rating and degraded rating. In other words 10 for a common use 5-6. 100 for a hacking program. 50 for firewall/system. 250 for agents

Given that you can spoof a middle lifestyle fairly easily in a few days of hacking (Hacking + Spoof (12, 1 day)), you save 5000 a month and you spend 80 on common programs, 1700 on hacking programs, 100 on firewall/system, maybe 500-1000 on agents (if they degrade, I can't remember).

Sure, that's a lot of tests to make with no glitches, but if you glitch, finding another pirate network won't take long. Alternately, a Logic+Software (1 or 2, 1 week) test isn't too bad.

Then again, I tend to house rule and break week intervals into 40 hours and months into 160 hours to allow people with Sustenance/Sleep regulators or Long Haul users to crank out tasks a lot faster than those people who need to sleep nearly three times longer than they do. A nice long haul binge can crank out two weeks of work easy in four days.

All in all, I can see programming and computers being an area where you have to constantly stay on the edge of the new code as old exploits and hacks are patched up and new ones become available. That said, I equate the difficulty of keeping patched up to the current with the difficulty in modern times with keeping illegal software patched up. A little more of a pain than it is for the automatic downloads of the legal user, but by no means that complicated or prohibitive. (Not that I'm advocating illegal software, I'm just saying)

To end my spamminess, I guess I don't mind the new degradation rules, though it brings up an annoying amount of bookkeeping and I'll probably end up just having my group's hacker make one roll and pay the money rather than fiddling with all of it.

Interesting note of Today's Pirated Software most P2P sites have a upload(seed)/download ratio, those that download more than upload(seed) tend to not be invited into the "better" invitation only P2P sites.

WMS

The whole seed/download is probably where the bit in the Open Source optional rule about downloading a number of programs equal to the warez contact Loyalty rating for every program you contribute comes from. You put in the time to patch something yourself, upload it and can download up to 6 other programs for free.

Which, now that I think of it, I find kind of an odd optional rule compared to the ease of finding 10% cost pirate programs using rules in the earlier chapter.

And, of course, both are nicely abusable. One person starts play with a Browse 6 program and goes to town finding pirate networks to purchase all the 10% goodies, another starts with a warez contact with loyalty 6 and starts writing rating 1 common use programs and getting six rating 6 programs of any sort in return.

Of course, any GM who allows either probably needs to be bitchslapped, but hey, that's like so much in SR.

Well, yeah. I see what you're getting at, but. I mean maccas use prepackaged components which they pile up and say 'heres a burger' I can actually do the same thing in less time if I used the end products of the prepack burger packs I can buy in the supermarket across the road.

But I'm guessing thats not really your point, you're saying that the module method of production is boatloads more efficent, which I agree entirely, and that coding is at the industrial automation stages of efficency, which I'd disagree strongly, but lets say both are true

So anyway, if the code is a series of modules, why carn't I just swap out the access ID module like the big houses are doing. What l33+ trick does he have that I don't? And more importantly, why can I not just buy it? Seriously, all they have are guys who are not as good as me at cutting code, and some IP which I can actually break into their compound and steal because thats what I do for a living. What the hell? Why can they make money hand over fist and it takes me forever to do anything.

A) Teamwork tests are actually less efficent in this circumstance, because adding a team member doesn't double your number of hits. Teamwork actually makes it even less economical because I use more overheads (labour) for less outputs (agents with new access ID)

B) Okay, I can accept that the software development firms have a magical teaparty in which if you have the special attribute of 'software developer' suddenly you are not bound by the rules for coding programs but that really sucks. One of the strong points of the rules set is versimultude - should my security guards have Ares Alphas that are 12P when they use them, but 3P when my shadowrunner picks up the same gun?

Also, my actual job is to break into peoples houses and steal their software files. Why don't I just break into their office and steal their software files that they are using to make agents at faster than me despite being half as good (I estimate that, assuming an agent is bespoke software, and a 3 + 3 programmer who gets 2 hits a week and thus needs 2.25 months to patch an R6 agent which costs 15k yens normally (which would cost the company over 22.25k yens (rule of thumb, double salary to account for full overheads of an employee, and seriously that guy is actually going to be making more than 5k a month otherwise he cannot own a car), but that agent only sells for 15k. Assuming a 10% margin (not unreasonable) that means the coder can do it in 60% of the stated price. Some how. And thats not actually factoring in any margin for updating the software (which you have to do) and actually writing it in the first place.

It's entirely reasonable to assume that the wage slave has "I'm a software developer hacks" that mean he can do it in less than 20% of the time that I can, which is just weird.

C) 6+4 is a pretty huge dicepool in a game in which a professional is 3 + 3 according to the books. That guy is infact fricking awesome.

An ability score of 6 would be fracking awesome, but that' not what this guy has. He at cost hardware and software (6) and 'veteran' skill. IMO a skill of 4 means you better than most professionals, but still wholly unremarkable. Hell for less and 20k in hardware and 'ware you give that DP to bum.

I was quoted it as being a logic + software test, no programs to leverage. I don't have unwired though, so I may be wrong.


See post 58 of this thread.

I'd agree its all a bit more reasonable if it was skill + program, but it appears to be a regular skill test. If that is the case, joe wageslave professional is explictly 3 + 3 so its un economical to actually make agents. Handwavium is an okay explaination I guess, it's just a bit weird that my software engineer who then uses his tools in B&E jobs is 1/3rd as good as guys with worse skills you use their software for consulting gigs. Obviously working for the law makes you a better programmer. Not that you have to work when you can spoof yourself a medium lifestyle in 6 days.

Edit: If it was a program test you'd be in trouble, because then agents could do it, and then you'd just be screwed because you'd use cascading agents to replicate each other breaking each others copy protection and go nuts.

Quite right I misunderstood.

Still, you can get reasonable stats and skills if you assume that the lead programmer is slightly more. Going by the example spiders on 207, the security consultant has Logic 4, the Matrix support specialist has logic 5. If the skill is 4 or 5, and the programmer has a rating 5 programming suite, that's 13-15 dice before cyberware.




I'm a little surprised that no one is talking about optimisation or ergonomic program options.

Cheers
CC

Ooh, programming suite? Thats a new toy I didn't know about - and changes the math incidently. Assuming that everyone at IBM.com has a R6 suite which straight adds die to the test, that makes it 3 hits a week (buying) for a 1.5 month agent repatch. Which is still a bit pricy, and probably not affordable for the companies (15k for a 20k agent) but can pretend to be affordable. (upping the logic doesn't actually improve the economics, unless you think that a logic 5 skill 5 guy doesn't have a high lifestyle)

They only go up to rating 5 unfortunately, but they are only 1k per rating, you can use them for (basically) non hacking-related programming, so writing from scratch, patching, that sort of thing.

Cheers
CC

Ergonomic is sexy. I'm sure everyone will be running around with 5 or 6 ergonomic programs (for response 5 or 6) as it is maxed at the processor limit. Still, nice to have those five or six not count towards your processor limit and slow you down

Optimization I can see also being sexy, especially for running rating 6 optimize 3 progs on cheap rating 3 agents and still have them be effective. But for chargen hacker, rating 6 programs are already avail 12 so can't add options on them and since response 6 is relatively cheap/easy to make most will be using their progs at rating 6 after one run anyways.


As to the programming agent time. The other option instead of using a rating 5 programming suite is to program on a nexus, which cuts the interval in half (though prevents using a programming suite). Not sure on agents which is more efficient, the extra 5 dice or the half interval.

assuming you are buying hits, and have 8 or more dice to begin with, the half interval. If you have less than 3-7 dice, it is more effective to buy a progamming suite to get you to 8 dice. If you have 2 or less dice, you suck and don't be undertaking the task, but the programming suite sufficent to get you to 4 dice is probably mandatory.

Edit: so it doesn't help the 'standard professional' buying hits for his employer. I'm actually pretty convinced now that even when you do add in 'random bling' its not going to economical for large corps to actually see agents.

Unless you can apply the same 'patches' to agents that have had a new Access ID added.

Actually there's another goody for programmers on the same page as the Programming Suites. Under Nexus Programming, users with access to the expert systems in a virtual programming environment reduces the interval of programming tests by half.

Edit: Dangit, Sombranox beat me to it.

For things like software, isn't the "updating" as much about tweaking it to sort out bugs as it is because the software it's going to work with is going to be updated, etc...
...Ergo, the change is because of things beyond the hacker's control ??

Wheras Spells are defined and then are like a template that can be used time-and-again without change.


Technically of course [and I caused some animated discussion when I mentioned it], Spells and Skills should have to be maintained, else they become less effective as you don't use them often and start forgetting things [especially when you have a mid-t-large number of Spells/Skills to keep track of].

I imagine the FOSS sidebar is going to P.O. a lot of Slashdotters.

To suggest that open source hacking tools are somehow inferior to closed source tools is asking for a flaming IMNVHFO.

They often require a fair amount of skill to even install, let alone keep patched, but once you have those skills it's a walk in the park.

There is some indication in fluff that the Patent war is eventually lost to the Mega's but all that would do is drive the open source movement underground and into the shadows.

I know if I had a choice between a Warez group and a FOSS tribe that I'd take open source every time.

[tangent]

Is it not easier to maintain a 'white' link with a bunch of licensed and registered programs on it that you update once a month and then systematically re-crack than to try and patch cracked programs?

and at the same time make the best and brightest think two times about going there...

right now, with open source being what it is, real life corps pay the best and brightest to work on it.

but if it was downright illegal to work on it, a lot of corps would pull that funding, instead looking at patent deals and in-house projects.

Wait.. this total undermines the 'no two agents with the same ID' thing. Carn't I just get my cracked agent, spoof the access ID to foo, move it to a new node (2), and then upload the cracked agent again to node 1 again with a new spoofed access ID (bar)?

Then I copy the foo back to node 1 (as its access ID is foo and I explicitly cannot change that) Now I have two agents one is 'foo' and the other is 'bar' from the same cracked agent

Edited: Clarified example.

If a nexus can run multiple personae, it can run multiple agents. Each agent should be able to produce several patches per month. If I finally get to buy server hardware instead of 100k¥ of programs, I shall be very pleased.

Agents cannot make the test to make patches - they can only make skill + program rolls, not attribute + skill.

You have to be part of a 'warez group' in the new rules, no exception, unless you like being broke or dead.

Why can´t agents use Response as matrix attribute? Happens all the time, even for Riggers jumped into drones.

Did I miss something in Unwired? I can imagine it says somewhere that Agents can't write or patch software 'cos they is thick but it sure ain't because they don't possess a relevant 'Mental' stat to roll.

Most of those 'best and brightest' were working on it long before the Corps got involved, they just get paid now.

I imagine most of them would continue to code even if that job disappeared.

The main thing IBM, Novell et al bring to the table is Patent libraries and proprietary protocols.

[tangent]

I do wonder exactly why being a convicted Felon prevents Hans Reiser form continuing to develop ReiserFS or why the codebase can't just be forked, renamed and re-used?

It's not as if the code committed the crimes.....

Is there even a software autosoft?

I said that because in the book it never mentions them being able to do anything except use programs and roll skill + programs, but it was pointed out to me that pilots totally can just use the autosoft.

So.. ahh.. maybe they can patch themselves.


Okay so the lone hacker is dead OR you HAVE to use agent smith.

Brilliant work guys. I am loving it.

hmm, did anyone have a look at the backside of the book yet?

also, my mind is hereby filled with the mental image of clusters of nexi

But "nexi" is the wrong word!

bah, as if i care

Saying "nexi" three times summons the might Trollman, so beware!

bah, who fears the troll? this holy book repels him anyways

Does someone have the book's ISBN? I would like to know what it is. THank you.

hmm, the art on p166 looks like a lawsuit waiting to happen...

The point is that once you cracked a program in SR, you have it's source code. So the whole underground circulating cracked copies is open source, but not free software.

Personally, I would not let my players use dedicated patching agents.