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Rotbart van Dainig
You can always turn off the radio and reboot. Anyone who had basic DNI access not hardwired for his implant's deserves what he gets.
Redjack
Not if I strip your admin access.
Tarantula
Well, if you leave your head link at signal 0, and then use the 2nd link as a relay, they won't be able to hack your headlink without A) hacking the secondary link or B) getting within 3 meters of you. If you're a hacker, you should notice either one.

If you're really worried about it, you could always have a subdermal switch for your internal commlink to manually turn it off and back on to clear people out. Or, rule that DNI can never be locked out as not administrator, as its hardwired in.
Redjack
Sure but if I compromise the internal com (via the external), I simply strip your access and turn up the signal rating.
Tarantula
Again, I highly favor that being that the 'ware is hardwired into your brain, its rather trivial to hardwire that commands coming through DNI are always administrator, and you can't "hack" that differently, because its hardwired in.

Also, as soon as you changed the signal rating of his internal comm, he'd probably notice that his signal went from 0 - 6 either in his display (if he keeps a display of whats going on up) or next time he went to check on the comm.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Redjack @ Sep 2 2008, 03:55 PM) *
Not if I strip your admin access.

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 2 2008, 03:52 PM) *
Anyone who had basic DNI access not hardwired for his implant's deserves what he gets.

In which case stripping admin access from DNI requires you to drill the persons head. See Unwired p. 103.

Of course, whoever wrote that section didn't bother reading a) the main book for links, b) Augmentation for triggers and c) the rules for electronics he implemented later.
Which caused DNI in fluff to become a network interface and the Datajack a universal point of entry to all DNI implants.
Completely FUBAR - but hey, hacking Cyberware is coool, wheee.

Not that it really matters by RAW - strong encryption will keep anybody from hacking anything you own.
CanRay
Which brings us to...

DOCTOR WHAT!!!

Just out of retirement and ready to help out anyone with a stick long and thick enough to hire him! vegm.gif
Redjack
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 2 2008, 09:34 AM) *
In which case stripping admin access requires you to drill the persons head.
I disagree. Like any other computer system, I simply reduce the access rights.. in this case to the DNI interface account.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Redjack @ Sep 2 2008, 08:40 AM) *
I disagree. Like any other computer system, I simply reduce the access rights.. in this case to the DNI interface account.


From what he refered to, Unwired, 103, "Bypassing or modifying hardware limitations on a device requires a Hardware + Logic Extended Test."

DNI should be hardwired as administrator, if you want to undo that, you need to get into the implant, and muck with the circuitry.
CanRay
So, who brought the cordless drill?
Redjack
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 2 2008, 09:43 AM) *
DNI should be hardwired as administrator, if you want to undo that, you need to get into the implant, and muck with the circuitry.
Access levels are a function of software. Connectivity is a function of hardware. I am not suggesting cutting of access, just reducing the rights of that access to nothing... So obviously I disagree with the assertion that you can 'hardwire' the 'software'. wink.gif


Rotbart van Dainig
Also note that Augmentation specifically mentions that you can turn on/off an implant via a trigger - that may be external (additional radio reciever or the like), manual (subdermal switch) or neural (DNI).

That doesn't even involve accounts at all, so even if Joe Stupig got himself an implant that DNI account access can be disabled... he just can turn it off, on - and after a reboot, he's back in the captain's seat.

QUOTE (Redjack @ Sep 2 2008, 05:49 PM) *
So obviously I disagree with the assertion that you can 'hardwire' the 'software'.

Which, per p. 103, you explicitly can.
Ravor
Then we just disagree on the true worth of datajacks Cain, because every decent Mage should have one in my opinion. I haven't really given Technomancers much thought, especially since I haven't had time to disect Unwired yet.
Tarantula
I'm full of it. P 102 in unwired, "The target character may be shut out of controlling his own implants by deactivating DNI or altering the account privileges (requiring a Hacking + Editing Test)."

In other words, you probably always want to have a subdermal switch to toggle off and on all your implants, because they can disable DNI to them.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 2 2008, 08:58 AM) *
Then we just disagree on the true worth of datajacks Cain, because every decent Mage should have one in my opinion. I haven't really given Technomancers much thought, especially since I haven't had time to disect Unwired yet.


Every mage should have a datajack? Why? What benefit is it to them over trodes which don't have an essence cost, and won't lower their magic?
Redjack
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 2 2008, 09:50 AM) *
That doesn't even involve accounts at all, so even if Joe Stupig got himself an implant that DNI account access can be disabled... he just can turn it off, on - and after a reboot, he's back in the captain's seat.

Which, per p. 103, you explicitly can.
Actually no, it doesn't. Rebooting a system simply brings it up in the last configuration. Once I edit out your rights, rebooting does nothing but temporarily disrupt my access. You must reinstall the system to fix it.

I would direct you to the following:
Augmentation pg 90: The discussion specifically recommending that you use a datajack as a choke point.
Augmentation pg 103: The list actually supports my assertions, not yours.

QUOTE (Augmentation @ Pg58)
Using your brain requires either a cybernetic implant or the use of trodes. Either counts as a direct neural interface (DNI), meaning that it can send and receive signals directly to and from the brain. Such components include software that interprets sig-nals in the brain and translates them into instructions that devices
or software environments understand, and vice versa.
Emphasis mine. Software....

I offer the following as the piece de resistance:
QUOTE (Augmentation @ pg102)
The target character may be shut out of controlling his own implants by deactivating DNI or altering the account privileges (requiring a Hacking + Editing Test).



Redjack
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 2 2008, 09:58 AM) *
I'm full of it. P 102 in unwired, "The target character may be shut out of controlling his own implants by deactivating DNI or altering the account privileges (requiring a Hacking + Editing Test)."
Kudos. You beat me to it. biggrin.gif
Tarantula
Yep, but either way, I think choking it through an external commlink first is highly preferable, being that if that does get compromised, you have easier access to mess with it.
Ravor
Every decent Mage should already be sucking at least one point of Essence loss, probably two so they don't have to worry about getting their extra IPs through magic.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Redjack @ Sep 2 2008, 06:14 PM) *
Rebooting a system simply brings it up in the last configuration. Once I edit out your rights, rebooting does nothing but temporarily disrupt my access.

That's not really a given thing by RAW.
QUOTE (Redjack @ Sep 2 2008, 06:14 PM) *
The discussion specifically recommending that you use a datajack as a choke point

It's fluff, though, and it's desinformation:
QUOTE (Unwired @ p. 102)
A datajack provides immediate access to all cyberimplants with a direct neural interface

So, by the rules, contrary what the characters on p. 90 claim, only a Datajack makes you vulnerable to direct hacking and spreading of viruses.
QUOTE (Redjack @ Sep 2 2008, 06:14 PM) *
Augmentation pg 103: The list actually supports my assertions, not yours.

Those recommendation's are laughable at best - any functional setup will have a path of entry.
Strong Encryption is the way to go - if it takes at least 12h (rushing the job) to even access an implant, it will never happen in the field.
QUOTE (Redjack @ Sep 2 2008, 06:14 PM) *
I offer the following as the piece de resistance:

Sure, that on p. 102... which can be outdone by hardwiring it, per p. 103.
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 2 2008, 06:25 PM) *
Yep, but either way, I think choking it through an external commlink first is highly preferable, being that if that does get compromised, you have easier access to mess with it.

Just, if that external commlink is connected to a Datajack... you are screwed even worse.
CanRay
Easy solution to all this, Doctor What and his Cordless Drill of Truth!

It's kind of like the chairleg of truth, but it drills right to the core of the truth.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 2 2008, 09:35 AM) *
Sure, that on p. 102... which can be outdone by hardwiring it, per p. 103.

Just, if that external commlink is connected to a Datajack... you are screwed even worse.


Yeah, I'd like to specify that all my implants are hardwired to DNI is always enabled and administrator... Would take care of a lot of this.


Also, score another point for trodes! They don't compromise your cyberware security by allowing viruses in.
Redjack
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 2 2008, 10:35 AM) *
So, by the rules, contrary what the characters on p. 90 claim, only a Datajack makes you vulnerable to direct hacking and spreading of viruses.


QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 2 2008, 10:35 AM) *
Sure, that on p. 102... which can be outdone by hardwiring it, per p. 103.


Negative in both cases, but I'm sure you already realize that.

QUOTE (Tarantula @ 9/2/2008 10:54 AM)
Yeah, I'd like to specify that all my implants are hardwired to DNI is always enabled and administrator... Would take care of a lot of this.
If it were only that easy, but its not.

You cannot simply hand wave away a vulnerability and claim that it is a hardware function, when it is in fact a software function. So while this is a vulnerability you must accept.... it is also one your opponents will have.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Redjack @ Sep 2 2008, 07:52 PM) *
Negative in both cases, but I'm sure you already realize that.

Sorry, but that's RAW. You can houserule it in your games, just don't complain.
QUOTE (Redjack @ Sep 2 2008, 07:52 PM) *
If it were only that easy, but its not.

It is that easy per p. 103.
QUOTE (Redjack @ Sep 2 2008, 07:52 PM) *
You cannot simply hand wave away a vulnerability and claim that it is a hardware function

Sure you can, because Augmetation tells us so that DNI is Hardware.
QUOTE (Redjack @ Sep 2 2008, 07:52 PM) *
So while this is a vulnerability you must accept.... it is also one your opponents will have.

It's about as necessary as to accept that every implant comes with WiFi integrated - it doesn't, if you don't want to.
And smart opponents won't have it, either.
Tarantula
I know I know. I just won't get a datajack. Trodes save the day again. Yes, you can hack my trodes, no, my trodes don't give you access to all my non-wireless DNI using cyberware. Datajacks suck even more now, as its the datajack that connects the computers (hacker) to the implants (DNI). Without that, DNI isn't a valid connection for the hacker to hack with, and he'd need the implant to have wireless (as if any runner would do that) or actually plug into it.
Adarael
QUOTE
It's kind of like the chairleg of truth, but it drills right to the core of the truth.


It is wise and terrible. What does it say, CanRay?
Rotbart van Dainig
Whirrrrrr! usually.
Skip
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 27 2008, 11:50 AM) *
Uhm, Wired Reflexes do help AR hacking.
But it doesn't give you extra actions does it? I've never done cybercombat in SR4, so I didn't read it that way, I thought you got at most 3 actions, not due to the wired reflexes. You do get the reaction bonus though, unless I am misreading that as well.
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 2 2008, 12:54 PM) *
Yeah, I'd like to specify that all my implants are hardwired to DNI is always enabled and administrator... Would take care of a lot of this.

Also, score another point for trodes! They don't compromise your cyberware security by allowing viruses in.
Honestly, I view it as a question of whether or not you have other cyber. I can't see getting a jack without other cyber, and I can't see someone with cyber as not having one. Maybe my thinking is just old school, but I like having the hardwired connection.
QUOTE (Redjack @ Sep 2 2008, 01:52 PM) *
If it were only that easy, but its not.

You cannot simply hand wave away a vulnerability and claim that it is a hardware function, when it is in fact a software function. So while this is a vulnerability you must accept.... it is also one your opponents will have.
I'd think you could have software that was part of hardware, in ROM instead of RAM, but then you can't flash the frimware, and updates require minor surgery. I'd let you do it, but you'd have to pay for the advantage, and not updating it regularly would result in a loss of effectiveness. A better answer would be having two switches, one for on/off, and one for reset. That way you have a ROM bit of software that is regularly updated in a RAM module, resetting it returns the cyber to it's original installed setting. This way you could get to use the cyber again, but at a penalty, until you reflash the cyber. As a pratical matter, if you have taken long enough to turn off, turn on, and reflash your affected cyber; you are either dead or done.

I think hacking cyber works best when it is done steathily; killing a guard's cyber hearing while everyone troops by and turning it on after you are through, with him none the wiser. Or disabling the cyber before the start of a battle (go for the eyes first). That kind of thing.

As for the benefits of a jack over a comm, I'd think it depends on your game and your character. I'd see the jack on a face character, where jacking languages and data securely and descreetly is important, and a visable comm might make sense. The comm makes more sense on wired folk, and trodes are for the essence sensitive.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Skip @ Sep 2 2008, 08:56 PM) *
But it doesn't give you extra actions does it?

AR hacking uses pure physical initative. So if you got 4 IPs to shoot people, you got 4 IPs to hack them, too.
Skip
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 2 2008, 03:12 PM) *
AR hacking uses pure physical initative. So if you got 4 IPs to shoot people, you got 4 IPs to hack them, too.

Ah, the BBB was really confusing on it there. Like I said, I still haven't done cybercombat in SR4 yet. That at least makes them worth bringing them on the run. Switching they explained and the running concurant initative they explained. I guess I was just used to having a seperate VR initative. wobble.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
VR initative is seperate, though.
Skip
Ah, okay - does wired do anything to the VR init? Or was I simply confusing AR and VR hacking?
Tarantula
Wired does nothing to VR hacking. Seems lik you just mixed up AR and VR.
Skip
Ah, okay, so my point does make sense. If wired helped with VR init it would be more common, and they'd be less a liability in the field. Does anyone play a hacker with wired reflexes then?

Sorry for the minor threadjack - back to hardline v. wireless v. semaphore (datajack v. comm v. trodes).
Tarantula
I doubt it, VR makes you go limp, which is the biggest problem with it. Wired lets the hackers decide if they need to hack something out, or shoot someone, and go back and forth between the two, and yes, I've seen a number of hackers with wired.
CanRay
I can vouch that hacking from a dumpster is not a good idea.

Our Gnome Hacker was just penetrating the defences when a bum started looting him, and pulled the cord from the datajack, giving him Dumpshock.
Cain
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 2 2008, 08:58 AM) *
Then we just disagree on the true worth of datajacks Cain, because every decent Mage should have one in my opinion. I haven't really given Technomancers much thought, especially since I haven't had time to disect Unwired yet.

Tarantula already asked this one, but *why*?

What good is a datajack to a straight mage? If I have a decent starting mage with Sensitive System, why on earth should I consider a datajack? What does it do for me? How does it help my magic, or other actions for that matter? I can't see it as doing anything but hurting the mage.

Even without Sensitive system, if I'm going to be implanting cyber, I want to get the most mileage possible out of it. I'm literally trading Magic for the implant, so it had better be good.
jago668
Well mages and essence are pretty much in for a dime in for a dollar deal. After you lose that first 0.01 essence you got nothing to lose by spending the other 0.99. Though after the discussion here, doesn't really seem to be worth spending any of that on a datajack.
Ravor
I think I've already answered this one, but having an always-on universal remote and the ability to download the entire sum of human knowledge directly into your brain are two very good reasons to give up a point of Magic, especialy considering that you are already going to be sucking up cybereyes and saving up for a pain editor.

Cain
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 2 2008, 10:07 PM) *
I think I've already answered this one, but having an always-on universal remote and the ability to download the entire sum of human knowledge directly into your brain are two very good reasons to give up a point of Magic, especialy considering that you are already going to be sucking up cybereyes and saving up for a pain editor.

That, of course, assumes that you want cybereyes and a pain editor. If your mage has Sensitive System, he may not even want that.

Second, I don't see where a datajack allows you to "download the entire sum of human knowledge into your brain". Basically, all a datajack amounts to is a DNI connection. Sure, you could download a massive amount of information and store it in electronic memory; but you could do that with pretty much any piece of cyber. In fact, a commlink would be even better; then you can use Data Search and Browse to get whatever specifics you might need.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 2 2008, 11:28 AM) *
Every decent Mage should already be sucking at least one point of Essence loss, probably two so they don't have to worry about getting their extra IPs through magic.

Perhaps, but a Datajack isn't one of the things I'd waste my precious point of Essence on as a mage. Not when there's a myriad of options available that, for a non-hacker in particular, are more than sufficient. It's like saying you *have* to have a top-of-the-line sports car when all you're going to do with it is drive to and from work.
Ravor
*Shrugs* To each their own I suppose, although I still think you are selling 'jacks short.
CanRay
The main advantage of Datajacks is you plug in, and you're done. Free Action in my mind.

Trode Jacks or Nanotrodes, that takes time. Minutes.

Minutes are a long time when you need to hack a door lock quickly. Or convince the nice Ukranian to stop beating you because you'll buy him Vodka.
Tarantula
Trodes don't take minutes. You put them on in the morning, and you're good to go for pretty much the day. Especially if you use nano-trodes.

Not to mention that you can have a helmet with built in trodes, so you put the helmet on, and you're good to go.

Ravor, why should I spend 0.1 essence on a jack as a mage, when I can buy trodes or nanopaste trodes, and get ALL the benefits, without losing any magic?
Ravor
For starters because you don't get all of the benefits of a datajack with just a set of trodes, that's why.

And let us not forget the fact that it is a hell of alot harder to take away someone's 'jack then their equipment, and if you are fragged enough not to have your gear you will need every last trick you can possibly scrape. And never forget the pure ease of usage, do you really want to spend the time (Not to mention a considerable ammount of nuyen.) smearing nanopaste on your head each morning or be resigned to walk around with hat hair all day?
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 3 2008, 07:04 AM) *
Second, I don't see where a datajack allows you to "download the entire sum of human knowledge into your brain". Basically, all a datajack amounts to is a DNI connection. Sure, you could download a massive amount of information and store it in electronic memory; but you could do that with pretty much any piece of cyber. In fact, a commlink would be even better; then you can use Data Search and Browse to get whatever specifics you might need.


A commlink doesn't give you access to Knowsofts and Linguasofts. A datajack does, instantly.
And data search is an extended test - not quite the same thing.

And isn't one of your complaints about mages and technomancers that they're insanely karma-needy? Never needing to spend even one point on a language skill or knowledge skill seems useful in those cases, no?
Ravor
Also something to consider is unless Unwired changed something you can run Browse on your 'jack just as easily as on your 'link.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 3 2008, 09:27 AM) *
For starters because you don't get all of the benefits of a datajack with just a set of trodes, that's why.

And let us not forget the fact that it is a hell of alot harder to take away someone's 'jack then their equipment, and if you are fragged enough not to have your gear you will need every last trick you can possibly scrape. And never forget the pure ease of usage, do you really want to spend the time (Not to mention a considerable ammount of nuyen.) smearing nanopaste on your head each morning or be resigned to walk around with hat hair all day?


Really? I don't? And what is it you can do with a datajack that i can't do with trodes?

No it isn't, theres this great stuff, called a jackstopper. You stick it in when you take all their crap away. Guess what good your datajack is now?


I don't think nanopaste takes a lot of time. I'd assume you dab it in the areas the trodes normally go, so, once you're used to the placement, Maybe a minute or two? Less time than brushing your teeth.

And 100¥ is not really much for a shadowrunner. And nanopaste would be only for times you're going on a run, because its hard to take away. You could always just use trodes around the house. And hat hair? Really? You're going to say hat hair is worse than losing a point of magic?
Ravor
Tarantula popular opinion aside, I don't enjoy repeating myself, I have already mentioned (Several times.) the fact that a 'jack allows you to download and run 'softs where-as a trode can't.

As for jackstop, sorry but I just finished looking it up in Arse and all it does is remove the ability to slot chips or plug in a cable, which in a wireless world isn't really all that hindering by itself. Also remember that you still have full access to everything you have stored on your 'jack so your epoxy compound is rather underwhemling to say the least.

And yes, even if we leave the issue of 'softs out of the picture for a moment, not having to wear a set of trodes is damnwell worth some Essence, especially considering the fact that if your Mage is smart he is already packing a set of tricked out cybereyes and working towards a pain editor. Do you remember TV before remotes? Ease of usage always wins.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 3 2008, 10:59 AM) *
Tarantula popular opinion aside, I don't enjoy repeating myself, I have already mentioned (Several times.) the fact that a 'jack allows you to download and run 'softs where-as a trode can't.

You're wrong. Trodes can access softs just as well as a jack. All thats required is DNI which both jack and trodes provide.

QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 3 2008, 10:59 AM) *
As for jackstop, sorry but I just finished looking it up in Arse and all it does is remove the ability to slot chips or plug in a cable, which in a wireless world isn't really all that hindering by itself. Also remember that you still have full access to everything you have stored on your 'jack so your epoxy compound is rather underwhemling to say the least.

Fine, throw in that they point a jammer at you because they see your shiny datajack and think maybe they don't want you hacking their shit. How are they gonna notice clear nano-paste trodes?

QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 3 2008, 10:59 AM) *
And yes, even if we leave the issue of 'softs out of the picture for a moment, not having to wear a set of trodes is damnwell worth some Essence, especially considering the fact that if your Mage is smart he is already packing a set of tricked out cybereyes and working towards a pain editor. Do you remember TV before remotes? Ease of usage always wins.

No, no it is not. That 0.1 essence of cyber could be a single cybereye (back of the head anyone? that you can cast out of) or an auto injector (stim patches anyone?) and since you seem to favor most essence spent being cyber converts to 0.2 essence of bioware, which could be plately factories, 2/3rds the essence of your pain editor, 1-2 reflex recorders (depending on group or not), 1 rating of cerebral booster (for those hermetics), echolocation (I wonder if you can cast via that?), a trauma damper, reception enhancer, or most any gene treatment.

Instead, you'd rather spend it on a datajack, when trodes replicate everything you can do with it. Because of hat hair.
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