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Ravor
Once again, sorry, but I just finished reading the discription of 'softs on page 320 in Fourth Edition, you need a datajack or a sim-module to access 'softs, a set of trodes by itself does not make the cut.

Hmm, noticing clear nano-paste, hmm, if I had to guess I'd say they use their eyes to see the PASTE you've smeared on your head. And remember that even if they point the best jammer in the world at your head you still have prefect access to everything you have stored on the 'jack itself, including 'softs.

Yep, a datajack is worth its weight in gold because it allows a mage to do things that he otherwise simply couldn't, and remember that as cheap as 'jacks are we can talk about installing betagrade+ relatively easily. In fact, with the possible exception of implanting a third tricked out cybereye in the palm of your hand a datajack is better than the ware you've listed.

Oh and no, you can't use echo-location to cast spells anymore than you can use ultrasound sensors.


Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 3 2008, 12:44 PM) *
Once again, sorry, but I just finished reading the discription of 'softs on page 320 in Fourth Edition, you need a datajack or a sim-module to access 'softs, a set of trodes by itself does not make the cut.

Emphasis mine.

If you're simply going to ignore accessories and whatnot, then you may as well ignore the use of knowsofts or linguasofts, too. Afterall, a Datajack doesn't let you access softs alone, either. You have to have the actual 'soft! Silly argument, huh? That's basically what you just tried to offer up.
Tarantula
Ok, let me admend that to trodes with a sim module, can do everything a datajack can. Honestly, you don't get any extra functionality from a datajack that you can't get from trodes (and a sim module for softs).

You seem to think for nanopaste trodes to work, you need to dunk your head in the stuff pratically. I don't think its quite that wet and nasty. Differences of world view.

Lets see, they could always just stick deactivators into your datajack. Honestly, aruging that "it can't be taken away" isn't very strong, because by the time you lose ALL your gear, your GM is just letting you live out of courtesy.

As far as being better, I think a lot of logic based mages would jump at +1 LOG for drain a lot faster than "trodes that can't be taken away".

But, echolocation is biologically based, not technological, which is the all important distinction for spells.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Bwuh?

You can't target spells using echolocation!

It functions "like a true ultrasound system" which doesn't allow spell targetting. If it did allow the exception, it would specifically say so.
Tarantula
And why don't true ultrasound systems allow spell targetting? Because they're technological. Guess what, this isn't. Why shouldn't it let it?

And another point against datajacks, if someone hacks it, they can then use it to hack ALL your DNI enabled cyber. Trodes don't open the door like that.
Mr. Unpronounceable
It's not a simple tech/bio split.
Rather it's based more on whether you're actually seeing something vs. seeing an overlay of interpreted data.

The pit-viper gland is biological and it doesn't allow targetting.
Cybereyes are technological and DO allow targetting, even if you gain thermo vision.
Echolocation/ultrasound and radar don't.

Without an actual listed exception, the default is to use the rules they give you: "as echolocation" - which specifically disallows spell targetting.

If you've got a page reference for "any bio sense allows spell targetting" I'd love to see it.
Tarantula
SR4, 173, "Step 3: Choose the Target(s)
The next thing a magician must do when casting a spell is
choose her target(s). A spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."
Emphasis mine.

The ultrasound section (324 on SR4) and the Echolocation section (63-64 Aug) make no mention of spell targeting. Since the choose the targets section of spellcasting says any technological visual aids, and echolocation is not one, then it is a valid way to choose a target.
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 3 2008, 07:22 PM) *
SR4, 173, "Step 3: Choose the Target(s)
The next thing a magician must do when casting a spell is
choose her target(s). A spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."
Emphasis mine.

The ultrasound section (324 on SR4) and the Echolocation section (63-64 Aug) make no mention of spell targeting. Since the choose the targets section of spellcasting says any technological visual aids, and echolocation is not one, then it is a valid way to choose a target.


Alright - how about this: "visual." Echolocation is aural.
Tarantula
Except it 64, Aug, "functions like a true ultrasound system" which, 324, SR4, "The ultrasound accessory consists of an emitter that sends out continuous ultrasonic pulses and a receiver that picks up the echoes of these pulses to create a topographic ultrasound “map� that is laid over (or replaces) the user’s normal visual sensory input."

Emphasis mine. So it is visual.
DireRadiant
Bioware isn't technology? It doesn't cause essence loss?
Tarantula
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Sep 3 2008, 12:30 PM) *
Bioware isn't technology? It doesn't cause essence loss?


SR4, 173, "Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."

Bio-enhancements with essence can be used. Only technological visual aids (such as cameras, elec binoculars, matrix feeds) can't be used. Echolocation meets the criteria.
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 3 2008, 06:29 PM) *
Except it 64, Aug, "functions like a true ultrasound system" which, 324, SR4, "The ultrasound accessory consists of an emitter that sends out continuous ultrasonic pulses and a receiver that picks up the echoes of these pulses to create a topographic ultrasound “map� that is laid over (or replaces) the user’s normal visual sensory input."

Emphasis mine. So it is visual.


You can't target using overlays - that's why you can't use goggles/glasses/contacts.
Tarantula
Can't target with TECHNOLOGICAL overlays. Guess what bioware isn't.
DireRadiant
So the actual argument is that since echolocation is bioware that causes essence loss it can be used as a visual targeting method by mages.
Tarantula
Because it isn't technological, such as a camera, or ultrasound sensor, but an organ/combination of organs.
Cain
Going slightly back on topic, you can always add a sim module to a commlink or trode net, allowing the use of softs.

The issue here is that a datajack can't do anything that a trode net/sim module cannot do. The only advantage is that it can't be taken away from you; but if you're that concerned about using the matrix when captured, you should be considering an implanted commlink.

A datajack is not the same thing as an implanted commlink. Ravor keeps mentioning using a datajack as headware memory, but you can do that with any piece of cyber. And because of the way wireless works in SR4, you can use your cybereyes as a remote-control for the TV as well. (Granted, leaving the wireless on is stupid; but that's true for a datajack as well.)
Tarantula
To get this thread back on topic: Echolocation discussion continues here.
Mäx
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 3 2008, 09:43 PM) *
The issue here is that a datajack can't do anything that a trode net/sim module cannot do

I think you can not use those for an old chool cable connection. cyber.gif
Tarantula
You can plug a cable into most any device, why wouldn't trodes come with a port for a cable?
jago668
As much as I used to always have a datajack. I think I've been sold on just using trodes/sim module. Might as well keep that essence for something else.
KCKitsune
Hey everybody, I've got a question: Why are Technical Skills covered under active skills?

Take for instance Software. This is a skill that makes no sense that it's covered under an active skill when it is obvious that it's a Knowledge based skill. Heck the only skills that should need an activesoft and skillwires are Physical (duh) and Combat. In the case of Combat skills, you don't know HOW to move and you don't move right this millisecond then you're screwed. Software or Electronic Warfare, or First Aid seem to me skills that don't need millisecond reactions.
Ol' Scratch
It's another legacy WTF? moment for the game.

In a nutshell, the assumption seems to be "if you will actively use the skill to perform an action while shadowrunning or create a tangible benefit for a runner, it's an Active Skill; if not, it's a Knowledge Skill." But instead of calling them Important Skills and Fluff Skills, or whatever other designation you want to give them, they went with Active and Knowledge. 'Course, this basic assumption gets ignored here and there as various freelancers and whatnot get pulled into the misnomer of the phrase "Knowledge Skills."

So, basically, it's all just one big cluster fuck. And has been since they introduced them. Just nod and smile and go with the flow.
Skip
Bring back the Skill Tree! biggrin.gif
Coldhand Jake
Okay, this conversation has me confused and frustrated, so, from a ex-decker, I'm gonna talk, and you tell me if I'm wrong.

Datajack: Back in the day, it was how we got connected with our cyberdecks. Also, how we'd mainline data from simdecks and such, if you weren't as cool as me. Back then, if you wanted to implant all your decking gear, you were lucky if you weren't using up most of an arm. And to hack a computer, you still had a wire trailing from you to it. Simple, end of story, good for security, shitty when you aren't a bulletproof chromejob.

Subdermal datajacks, instead of a plug and socket configuration, used an induction pad, and a magnet. Simple, no chrome donut upside your head.

Trodes were for mages and pussies who wouldn't go chrome, and letting said pansies see the awesome drek I was doing online.

Even today though, you don't get a Signal rating out of your datajack. It's for plugging into those nice new commlinks. Which give old hands like me wireless instead of dodging bullets freezing my balls off outside a corp security door. It does NOT let me wireless link with my commlink in my hands, that's what an implanted commlink does (and does well *taps his left temple*).

And again, if you're a mage, or a pussy, you can use trodes and get the same effect...if you want them snatched off your head, or some such.

So, why get a datajack nowadays? Well, sure there's the nostalgia factor. But here's why I have them. Unhackable connections. One jack in my temple, one in the wrist of my cyberarm. The wrist jack goes straight into my held commlink, so I can manipulate it at full speed, without worrying about the traffic being screwed with. Same for smartguns. As for my cranial jack, sometimes, you run into a system that's (OMG) not wireless, or worse, not even ON the Matrix. You have to socket in, and hack it with those skills we developed back in the day. And even your balls to the wall technomancer buddy's still running a line from something to get in there, so, why not clear the hackable middle-man, and route my internal commlink, which is currently OFF wireless, and plug straight in? I get full VR hot-sim speeds, and DNI interface, with no chance of some outside interference...just me and the machine I'm bending over.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Coldhand Jake @ Sep 5 2008, 09:59 AM) *
Even today though, you don't get a Signal rating out of your datajack. It's for plugging into those nice new commlinks. Which give old hands like me wireless instead of dodging bullets freezing my balls off outside a corp security door. It does NOT let me wireless link with my commlink in my hands, that's what an implanted commlink does (and does well *taps his left temple*).

Yes, you do. Typically at 0, but you still get wireless with it unless you get it specifically without it.


QUOTE (Coldhand Jake @ Sep 5 2008, 09:59 AM) *
So, why get a datajack nowadays? Well, sure there's the nostalgia factor. But here's why I have them. Unhackable connections. One jack in my temple, one in the wrist of my cyberarm. The wrist jack goes straight into my held commlink, so I can manipulate it at full speed, without worrying about the traffic being screwed with. Same for smartguns. As for my cranial jack, sometimes, you run into a system that's (OMG) not wireless, or worse, not even ON the Matrix. You have to socket in, and hack it with those skills we developed back in the day. And even your balls to the wall technomancer buddy's still running a line from something to get in there, so, why not clear the hackable middle-man, and route my internal commlink, which is currently OFF wireless, and plug straight in? I get full VR hot-sim speeds, and DNI interface, with no chance of some outside interference...just me and the machine I'm bending over.

Again, no reason you can't take your trodes, and plug a cable into them and run it to a system. You could even run cables from your trodes to your smartgun and commlink and what not if you wanted.
What hackable middleman is there? keep your trodes wireless off if you want, and just plug them in, same security cheaper, and no essence lost.
Coldhand Jake
So, you're telling me...you buy a new (post Crash 2.0) datajack, and you carry a commlink with sim module...and you're getting DNI functionality without a cord at all? This new datajack is carrying full DNI traffic with no cord...

If you're not pulling my leg, I think I need to upgrade.
Tarantula
Yes, yes you do.
FlashbackJon
QUOTE (Coldhand Jake @ Sep 5 2008, 12:21 PM) *
So, you're telling me...you buy a new (post Crash 2.0) datajack, and you carry a commlink with sim module...and you're getting DNI functionality without a cord at all? This new datajack is carrying full DNI traffic with no cord...

Better yet, you can smear some paste on your temples and carry a commlink with sim module and do the same thing.
Ol' Scratch
In SR4, Datajacks are an option, not a must-have.

For anyone who uses the technology on a regular basis, it's a cheap, convenient and stylish option to get. One that you don't accidently leave at home when you go to work. One that you don't have to worry about getting knocked off your head in a crowded area. One that shows you're a dedicated professional to others.

It's like complaining about having the choice of an Armored Jacket and a Concealable Holster vs an Armored Jacket with a built-in Concealable Holster. Or a Cybereye with Low-Light Vision vs. Goggles with Low-Light Vision. In the end it just comes down to style, preference and versatility.
Tarantula
And essence cost, which can mean a ton or hardly anything depending on how magical/resonant you are.
Coldhand Jake
Actually, considering I'm already running a 6/6 implant commlink with hot sim, and two wire-only datajacks...I think I have all the functionality I need.
CanRay
Again, there's speed.

If you need to hack something NOW NOW NOW, and aren't pasted up, then you gotta spend the MINUTES to do that. Minutes are a long time when the bullets are flying.

With the jack... *Snick* "And I'm in. Wow, it's almost as empty in this Node as it is in Tiny's head." "HEY!"
Tarantula
QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 5 2008, 08:38 PM) *
Again, there's speed.

If you need to hack something NOW NOW NOW, and aren't pasted up, then you gotta spend the MINUTES to do that. Minutes are a long time when the bullets are flying.

With the jack... *Snick* "And I'm in. Wow, it's almost as empty in this Node as it is in Tiny's head." "HEY!"



Again, nothing says its a minutes long process. Especially if you have say, a trode net built into your helmet.

And what part of going on a run wouldn't you get pasted up beforehand? Its like telling the sammy "oh, you need to shoot that guy NOW NOW NOW, guess you need to load your clip in your gun. Bet you wish you got a cybergun now!"
CanRay
OK. *Bang* Sammy is down.

Hacker only has a Ruger Super Warhawk and has already fired off six shots, and needs to shoot that person big-scary-Sammy-Killer NOW NOW NOW!

Bet you wish he had a Cybergun now *AS A BACK-UP*.

Flipside...

*Bang* Primary Hacker is down.

Face has some hacking skill, but no datajack, and didn't Trode Up/Helmet Up because he had to schmooze some Bigwigs and that kind of thing wouldn't go.

Now he has to spend minutes doing it. (I say it takes minutes in my group, noone has argued. And, as I have *HAD* electrodes connected to my head, I know how long it takes to get them EXACTLY right.).

Flipside...

*Bang* Face is down.

Team can't get in the easy way. The Sammy has to blow the wall with High-Ex NOW NOW NOW!

Good thing he made a Frame Charge... "Just in case."

"You made that to break into your Ex-Wife's house to steal your stereo back."

"Yeah... You guys owe me a new frame chrage now."
Tarantula
Obviously, I'm sure they haven't improved the ability of getting trodes on in the next 70 years, I mean, they can replace any body part from a cloned body, shove brain enhancing cyberware in your head, and so on, but obviously putting on some trodes (even when nanites are fairly common tech) is a difficult and arduous process.
CanRay
It is. You have to get them in a very exact position.

I'm sorry, but there are some jobs that just cannot be rushed, no matter how good the technology gets.

Setting it into a Helmet, yes, I agree with you 100%, no problem. It's designed to fit the same way if fitted properly to that specific person. Everyone's head is differently shaped after all.

But paste, no. If you practice with it, yes, you can speed it up. Especially if you're only doing it to a small group. Doing it to yourself, if you train with doing it, you can certainly cut down on time. Just like putting on Make-Up the same way, or styling hair the same way every time on the same person (Even yourself). It becomes instinct and you can just do it quickly.

I should have put in those stipulations, sorry.
Tarantula
Paste? How could that be messed up, as long as you get enough paste everywhere, its connected, badaboom. Thats the beauty of the nanites.
CanRay
Ah yes, Nanites, the solution to everything. nyahnyah.gif

Slather the whole head and it'll work, I guess that'll be fine.

Just be expecting to wash it out for the next few days.

You do IRL, BTW, with the "Conductive Gel" for the Trode Connections. dead.gif And those little Nanite buggers DIG in and stay in like noone's business! nyahnyah.gif
Cain
I've also had electrodes attached to my head. And I've been trained in how to put them on for an EKG. It's not a fast process, but it's not as slow as you might think, once you've had some practice at it.

At any event, the description of a trode net in the BBB seems to be just that-- a hairnet, that you can wear. If you can put it in a wig, putting on a trode net must be that easy.
Jhaiisiin
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 5 2008, 10:36 PM) *
-- a hairnet, that you can wear.


LOL Thanks for that, Cain. Now I'm imagining shadowrunners as blue-haired old biddies in floral print dresses toting machine guns.
FlashbackJon
QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 5 2008, 10:13 PM) *
It is. You have to get them in a very exact position.

I'm sure that's the case today - in 2070, I'm not buying it.

QUOTE
If you practice with it, yes, you can speed it up.

You mean, for instance, using it personally practically every day of your life? At this point, any given runner should be able to apply nanopaste trodes like putting on a pair of glasses. Normal trodes should be even easier.

Simple action, at most. This "minutes" garbage is ridiculous. nyahnyah.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Sep 6 2008, 12:07 AM) *
LOL Thanks for that, Cain. Now I'm imagining shadowrunners as blue-haired old biddies in floral print dresses toting machine guns.

The Hacker, maybe. Don't forget, FastJack is in his 70s!
Falconer
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 2 2008, 10:36 AM) *
Well, if you leave your head link at signal 0, and then use the 2nd link as a relay, they won't be able to hack your headlink without A) hacking the secondary link or B) getting within 3 meters of you. If you're a hacker, you should notice either one.

If you're really worried about it, you could always have a subdermal switch for your internal commlink to manually turn it off and back on to clear people out. Or, rule that DNI can never be locked out as not administrator, as its hardwired in.


Question: did they ever put in rules to intentionally turn down your signal rating to save power, make it harder to detect, etc. EG: my commlink is normally signal 4... but I have it turned down to signal 0 right now to limit it to interfacing w/ the PAN, or limit incoming bits in a spam zone. Since everything functions as a router... if any random appliance gets w/in 3m there's still a route in... but point is to make it hard to locate the source based on signal alone. (this would also be usefull for a jammer... I have a max rating 4 jammer... but I have it turned down to a mere 2 to disrupt the radar scanners while leaving the signal 3 commlinks okay).

Lets say you had an internal commlink. You limit it to only skinlink comms, then slave your external commlink to it. Does that mean they have to hack the internal commlink to get to the external one. This seems pointless, as the 'slaved' device simply forwards all connection attempts to the 'master'. EG: it would seem to just place your internal commlink in the DMZ but protect the external one (when you want the external one to protect the internal one).

Generally I'm of the opinion of... if you have the extra essence... a datajack isn't a bad deal. Most everyone has limited computer skills now. And there are going to be zones where all wireless is off, and the only way to access the system is to plug in. It comes down to.. what do you do when there isn't a wireless option?!

Another good spot to place the things is cyberlimbs. They have freebie essence free capacity. It's again only .45 essence for a lower arm w/ 10 capacity... 2 commlink, 2 hotsim, 1 datajack... 5 more for other goodies (such as radar, MAD detecter, ultrasound, shockhand, the amazingly broken stacking cyberarmor...).

Tarantula
QUOTE (Falconer @ Sep 6 2008, 09:08 AM) *
Question: did they ever put in rules to intentionally turn down your signal rating to save power, make it harder to detect, etc. EG: my commlink is normally signal 4... but I have it turned down to signal 0 right now to limit it to interfacing w/ the PAN, or limit incoming bits in a spam zone. Since everything functions as a router... if any random appliance gets w/in 3m there's still a route in... but point is to make it hard to locate the source based on signal alone. (this would also be usefull for a jammer... I have a max rating 4 jammer... but I have it turned down to a mere 2 to disrupt the radar scanners while leaving the signal 3 commlinks okay).

Lets say you had an internal commlink. You limit it to only skinlink comms, then slave your external commlink to it. Does that mean they have to hack the internal commlink to get to the external one. This seems pointless, as the 'slaved' device simply forwards all connection attempts to the 'master'. EG: it would seem to just place your internal commlink in the DMZ but protect the external one (when you want the external one to protect the internal one).

Generally I'm of the opinion of... if you have the extra essence... a datajack isn't a bad deal. Most everyone has limited computer skills now. And there are going to be zones where all wireless is off, and the only way to access the system is to plug in. It comes down to.. what do you do when there isn't a wireless option?!

Another good spot to place the things is cyberlimbs. They have freebie essence free capacity. It's again only .45 essence for a lower arm w/ 10 capacity... 2 commlink, 2 hotsim, 1 datajack... 5 more for other goodies (such as radar, MAD detecter, ultrasound, shockhand, the amazingly broken stacking cyberarmor...).



Yes, you can turn your signal down with a command. I don't remember where it is, but I've seen it!
I don't know about jammers, I'd say you can, because I don't see any balance problems with being able to buy a good jammer and being able to use it as a bad one.

If you have an internal commlink and slave your external one to your skinlink only internal one, you won't be connecting to anything, because your stuck at "skinlink" range for your signal. Everything passes through the internal commlink, and since it is limited to skinlink only, all you'll talk to are skinlinked devices. You can't then backsend it out the external comm, because then it isn't slaving it.

Datajacks are worse than other options you could get. That 1 datajack is half the capacity for a point of that delicious broken armor. Or numerous other goodies.
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