First, it's not a new arguement - I said in my post I don't think it should work. But as a GM, if the player spots something I can't clearly make a ruling on, I will usually allow it if it isn't unbalanced in my game.

Second, my assumption was premised on the mod in question being an eye-mod. As RvD pointed out, it isn't anymore. I'd be more apt as a GM to not allow it in that case.

Third, I said as a GM I might allow it, as in I would have made a house rule. I fail to see how anyone else's house rules affect your play. It's an RPG, its made to be house-ruled. I'm not suggesting that should be that way for everyone.

Fourth, relax.

The problem with the arguement against ultrasound being vision is this. The cyberware is headware, and obviously not a cybereye modification. The referenced mod is a "VISION ENHANCER" and would normally go on binoculars, glasses, contacts, goggles, etc what have you. I think its fairly clear that that is a vision enhancer, and thusly, so would echolocation ultrasound.

How daft can someone be.

Being able to hear and speak in wider spectrum of SOUND, doesn't make your hearing into a vision.
It's just that simple.

Which is why the book shouldn't state that it IS vision. Which it does, by referencing the VISION enhancement.

Also, not only do you head and speak wider spectrum of sound, you have a NEW ORGAN to translate that into a visual image. You can't possibly conceive of a new organ that hooks up to your visual cortex and makes you see the reflections of the sounds?

Judging by the sheer amount of vitriol this thread has generated I'd answer that with a big fat NO.

Hint: the Daredevil movie is not a good representation of how echolocation works.

But it is a good example of possibly what ultrasound would look like, which is what the echolocation + vocal range enhance + hearing enhance is.

why not we see reflected light ie photons, <<ultra>>sound is also reflected photons too.

Lets change it to Sensory Cortex rather than Visual Cortex. Then if connected/wired to one's Sensory Cortex you can spell target things/persons. That also allows dolphins to target things/creatures with magic using their SONAR, since that is part of the dolphins Sensory Cortex.

"Damn The CANON/RAW, Full Game Speed ahead."
"You May Fire When Ready Gridely."

WMS

Edited.

There is so much wrong with that sentence that I don't know where to begin.

Here for those of lesser Physics Education then.
Photons

The beautiful part about this is you really have no clue. I'm wiping a tear away at just how beautiful it is. Especially with the "of lesser Physics Education" part. Oh, my poor sides.

And you really don't want to go there - otherwise the Radar Sensor could be used to qualify for spellcasting LoS.

The sillyness of this thread astounds me.

Regardless of how one can say that Ultrasound can and *is* a natural sense for some species but that doesn't make is a VISUAL SENSE.

Bats have Echolocation/Ultrasound but the problem is that it is *SOUND WAVES* and whoever thought that they were photons needs to think again.

Nowhere in a description of photons do i find the word "sound waves"...or that sound waves are seen by the naked eye.

So, if the sense is natural or not doesnt matter as the brain translates SOUND into a what i would call a mental image of the surroundings, it doesnt paint a picture for your eyes to see.

Vision: Sense used - Brain+Eyes
Ultrasound: Sense used: Ears+Brain

I wonder what the penalties would be if one had such a sense and the sheer visual noise from all sources of radars and sensors that clog up the area.

Unless it's real Jamming? None.

I see what Tarantula saying. The book is calling it a vision mod. Vision mods have historically been allowed to be used for spell targeting as they cost Essence and become an inherent part of the mage's system. This is why cyber eyes work for mages despite them being little electronic cameras.

Since it's been stated (by Synner) that Ultrasound / Echolocation cannot be used for spell targeting, an Errata needs to be made on the Echolocation bioware.

What errata? The fact that it's a vision mod.

Vision Mods = Usable for spell targeting
Echolocation = Vision Mod
Therefore, Echolocation = Usable for spell targeting
But Ultrasound & Echolocation = NOT usable for spell targeting

Thus: Echolocation = Not Vision Mod

It's not hard. Either it can be used for targeting and IS a vision mod or it cannot be used for targeting and is NOT a vision mod.

Pretty much, but apparently pointing out that the way the books have it written out to make something possible that we think is likely not to be intended is stupid and gets you harassed.

Actually, that's wrong.

It can be a vision mod and not be used for spellcasting. Just because.

It's more than "make something possible that we think is likely not to be intended." Entirely too many people claim that it is totally accurate and believable. Those are the people getting "harassed" by how stupid a comment it is. Now you have people saying sound waves and light are both photons while looking down upon everyone else as being of "lesser Physics education." Sorry, but dumbasses are running rampant in this thread.

And, to be honest, if your entire argument hinges on the use of a descriptor while simultaneously ignoring the bulk of the text, your argument sucks. Doubly so if you're telling everyone who is reading and understanding the bulk of the text that they're the ignorant ones.

Again, that majority of the text describes the echolocation ware on its own, not combined with the other ware where it then becomes a true ultrasound system, and references that text for how it works.

^

Again, case in point.

Lines have been drawn and the debate has moved to a stalemate and an argument.
Add something new or move along.

Indeed. You refuse to acknowledge that the majority of that text is describing echolocation on its own, and not combined with the other mods. You continue to state that even though it states it functions as a true ultrasound system.

From the text you say we keep ignoring, Aug, 63-64, "The echolocation augmentation provides the user with a
simple form of acoustic sensing that, contingent on the volume
of the noise the character uses for detection and background
noise volume, allows the character to make out general shapes,
sizes, and distances to objects—building a “low resolution� image
of his surroundings. The range of the spatial perception is also
limited; in a quiet warehouse, a tapping cane is loud enough to
sound out most of the warehouse, but on a crowded street, the
same tapping cane might be good only for a 5-meter perception
radius. Echolocation can pick up things otherwise invisible
to the naked eye, such as glass walls or opponents cloaked with
Invisibility spells."

A lot of that works completely different to ultrasound, which makes no mention of background noise causing a problem, is not low resolution, and is not limited in range. Also, instead of general shapes, ultrasound says, "While ultrasound vision is perfect to “see� textures, calculate exact distances, and pick up things otherwise invisible to the naked eye". Considerably different than "oh, theres a flat shaped thing in front of my I don't want to run into, probably a wall.

I meant everyone.

What about synestasia? As I understand it, this cross-circuiting of the brain makes people's senses get interpreted in non-standard ways (e.g. 'seeing' smells, 'hearing' colors, etc). Could a synestasiac mage target a sound that he 'saw', or an image that he 'heard'? I would lean toward 'no' for both, because his hearing isn't specific enough for precise targeting, and the image being processed as sound would corrupt the link that the mage is trying to establish as well. But I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks.

I think it would have to be an extreme form of synesthesia where the synesthetic aspects could match "normal" perception on a 1 to 1 basis. Like the mage would have to be able to switch from synesthesia-mode and back without going insane.

Aren't there BTLs that do that specifically?

So you would say that a blind mage is effectively no longer a mage?

Blind mages still have astral perception which can be used for all targeting purposes. And they can still throw mojo via ritual magic (which doesn't require visual targeting). And they could still summon, enchant, etc. (which don't involve targeting at all). And they can still cast touch spells.

But otherwise yes. If you're blind you can't cast spells with visual targeting that you don't possess.

Have you read at all what those other mods have to say about using them with echoloaction, becouse those descriptions make it very clear that it actually doesn't work like ultrasound vision at all and the reference to working like ultrasound vision is pure lazynes on part of the writer(or possibly there wheren't enought wordcount to write real rules).

Other mods say that it works like ultrasound. I agree that its a lack of description on how it should work, and thats why I think errata would be good.

Tarantula you're just pushing the powergaming here.

There was a thread on this maybe 2-3 months back or about that time. Where the devs directly addressed this... my search fu is weak at the moment. But this was what they basically said. They said that low-light, or infravision more or less simply extended the range of sensitivity of the eye itself. Vision was still 'normal'. They also said that, radar, sonar were highly processed data which was simply overlaid on the field of vision so it could not be used for targeting.

Your argument seems to revolve completely around... since it's bioware it's natural. But I think it still suffers from the problem of it's not raw visual data being pumped into the visual cortex. It still has that problem of, this is secondhand reprocessed data from another sense which is radically different than sight. If you really wanted to get into it, it's not that hard to say that the audio data is 'visualized' in a completely different area of the brain and not the visual cortex.

I'd have issues even w/ an awakened dolphin casting through sonar, as they're not really seeing the target. Lets toss this another way, if you had the "motion sense" adept power on an mystic adept... should the mystic adept be able to cast spells through the motion sense in completely blinded situations? I'd say no, no problems w/ him pumping it full of lead and other such ninja madness... but not a direct mana spell... And that's a 'sense' which is completely based around sensing disruptions in the ambient mana.

My problem is that the books don't match what the devs said. The devs said "it is not vision" yet the books say it is. That is why I say that it needs to be errataed to clarify either that biological echolocation based ultrasound isn't sound, or a rehaul of the spell targeting paragraph (which would be more useful I think).

No only errata needed is removing the reverense to cyberware ultrasound vision, becouse it's quite odvious that, even with vocal range enhancer and hearing enhancement, echolocation still actually doesn't work like cyberware ultrasound vision.

Agreed, I just think that this is a good time to point out the magic targetting rules could be cleared up a bit, or at least have a few examples. Something more specific than whats there. You know, to address things like casting through invisibility, and the like.

This is still going? It's a simple debate to resolve:

Can awakened paracritters with echolocation target spells with it? [Yes] ---- It works.
[No]
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It doesn't work.

Near as I can tell, they can't--the same rules for using line of sight apply. So grabbing an extra sense isn't going to let you do this if a creature born with it can't. You could argue that magic requires your natural primary sense to target, which would allow creatures like bats to use non-visual targeting, but that would be a houserule and would still force humans to use sight.

Maybe read the thread? The arguement is that the BOOKS say that you should be able to, because they say that echolocation is a vision enhancement. The DEVS have already said echolocation can't be used to target, therefore, the books should be corrected.

I did read the thread. The argument is that the (often poorly worded to the point of lunacy) books can be selectively interpreted with enough ranks in Rules Lawyer and a desire to do something patently ridiculous.

It's like the old "it doesn't list any restrictions or penalties for being dead, so I get back up" argument.

Except, it says echolocation is vison, and that only technological vision mods can't be used.

Your example is not correct. It states what casting is limited by, and echolocation does not fall within those boundries.

I'd just like to throw in my 2 cents. I see the "Yes you can target with it" group quoting the following snippet over and over.

That makes it very clear to me. (No need to reply, I started skimming the rehashing quite a bit up.) Echolocation with the voice aug functions exactly as ultrasound, and spells cannot be targeted with ultrasound. Ipso Facto, Ergo, QED, blah-de-blah, Echolocation can never be used to target spells because ultrasound can never be used to target spells. That's just my call.

What Devs/Freelancers have stated is wrong and will be errata is long on words, few in erratta.

So if you are a RAWinsta, until it gets into the erratta go with that the books say.

WMS

Are you telling me not to just say "you can't" because the devs said "you can't?" I'm not. I think my reasoning is sound enough for itself. The rules as written say you cannot target a spell with echolocation.

Ultrasound, radar, and echolocation have one thing in common that you can use to your advantage in the errata if there ever is one. All of these send out a signal and then take the data on what comes bouncing back. It might be vision, but the fact that it is not done at the speed of light means you can't target it for some reason that you don't need to explain except for the fact that magic works that way. This way you can't use radar, or ultrasound, or echolocation and at least it makes sense why all three of these visions do no work since they take data based on a pulse wave that the device sends out. Maybe magic translates itself differently when the vision you are using is passive (as in directly seeing someone normally or using ultraviolet) as opposed to vision that is active (like radar or ultrasound that sends out a pulse.)

You really, really don't want do go there.

The Radar Sensor in fact works 'at the speed of light'... as does a flashlight in a completely dark room.

Except, why can't you target with an ultrasound system, what part of the magical targetting rules prevent that? The part where its a technological visual aid. Since echolocation is not technological, it bypasses the restriction on targetting, while still functioning as a true ultrasound system.

Wrong, you can't target using ultrasound because ultrasound is not sight. It just happens to share a set of mods and a common spot in the rule book for ease of usage.

You know guys, Synner DID come out and say quite clearly that Ultrasound can not be used. I think that it's silly for him to have said that, but he IS a Developer of the new rule set. This back and forth is not getting anything done.

What does the "why" matter? It functions as an ultrasound system, and ultrasound systems don't function for spell targeting. Done. If you start trying to logic out why it should work, you just as easily logic out why it shouldn't work. On one hand you should be able to target it if it is a bioware "vision" system. On the other hand you cannot target spells with hearing, even fancy bioware hearing systems. Which hand do we choose? Instead follow the rules. The rules are quite clear and simple. As always, play however you and your group want to. I really don't see how there's any more to be said. As a matter of fact, I'm wondering why I'm even posting this. Oh well. Click.

Could I get the page reference for this?

Rather clear cut to me. Regardless on how one describes it Ultrasound or any replacement for natural vision that isn't natural vision will not work.


The only other means is by touch or astral perception.