Except, that it says it is visual, so it is visual.

*blows on a whistle* Timeout guys?

Majority thinks Echolocation is not ok for mage-aim, some say it is. Both sides have been heard over and over and over again so there's nothing more to say about this. I'd say now we sit and wait if there's an errata coming about this subject and if not, we all go with out own ruling, either to allow or not echolocation for aiming.

Except that it doesn't, so it isn't.

It cross-references some rules, and only by your personal, willful defiance of logic, verisimilitude and common bloody sense have you come to the conclusion that it's visual. The devs will not 'errata' this because it does not need errata. The only people who would insist that echolocation is visual because the rules it cross-references happen to use the word (while describing a completely different device, no less) 'visual' near the end of a paragraph are the worst kind of rules-lawyer, and any sane GM who is not also the worst kind of rules-lawyer would tell you you're being stupid.

Your argument is bad, and you should feel bad.

And unless you have a counterpoint that is wildly different to your previous arguments, don't even waste your time typing a reply to this - I've heard them; they're idiotic.

Note: while I think your argument is idiotic, please don't take that to mean I think you are as well - quite the contrary. I do think you need to realise that your stance here is a lost cause, however - thus the stronger language.

Have my babies.

Congratulations, that is the first thing that has ever made me laugh, audibly, at work.

I doff my hat to you, good sir. =P

Except it does, because it describes how shitty it is when used on its own, and then says, if you add it with b and c, it works like the other thing.

Can you agree that the net effect of getting all 3 bioware is that you can use the ultrasound vision modifier table when using a visual perception test?

I have been long thinking about adding a comment to this (since I am one of the two guys who originally wrote the bioware chapter for Augmentation) although I doubt that some people here can be persuaded by what I say (having already set their minds). I have decided to post it nevertheless.

Echolocation bioware is a modification that allows the "perception" of their surrounding by analysis of sound waves that are present from the surrounding. However, it is not a true echolocation (like a bat or dolphin's) because the character does not actively project a ultrasound wave (by screech of instance). He is just the receiver, processes the sound and gets an idea of the surrounding (but not by vision, since there is not any modification to the eye just nerve clusters). The brain might turn this into a "picture" since this is something the brain is able to deal with just because of metahuman biology.

Additonally a character possessing echolocation just relies on the for a metahuman recognizable spectrum of sound. This is why the basic echolocation bioware is not as effective and does not provide a high perceptiual resolution.

However, if the bioware-equipped also possess vocal range enhancer and hearing enhancement implants (or their cyberware and after Runner's Compendium also metagenetic equivalents), he can project and receive soundwaves of the ultrasound band, which provides a higher "resolution" and thus works like a "true" biological ultrasound. Still it is not an innate sense.

The Ultrasound cyberware (which is headware, not eyeware, so cybereyes cannot equipped with it, IIRC) consist of the both ultrasound transmitter and receiver and the computronics to turn this information into a format that the brain can process (such as an "image" overlay). Nevertheless it is based on sound not visual cues. It has nothing to do with the spectrum of light. Again, it is not an innate metahuman sense.

Coming back to the original question, wether you can use it for spell targeting.
Can you use it? As Synner pointed out, humans for an unknown reason rely on their visual sense, mainly because it is innate and the most accurate. It has probably something to do with how the metahuman brain works. So no, you can't use it.

Can para-animals that have echolocation as normal, natural-born, sense use it for spell targeting? We don't know YET. It has never been covered in SR4 (at least to my knowledge). From a conceptual rules standpoint I say that it would be very interesting and give those critters an edge (making them more interesting in combat situations). I think that is something to keep in mind for Running Wild from my perspective (also with other senses that are or might be more accurate than those of humans).

The only problem with my own argumentation (and the exception) is a Changeling's biosonar (RC, p. 111). IF we would allow spell targeting for awakened dolphins by echolocation and IF a changeling was BORN (not SURGED) with this trait, I'd allow it, because for the changeling it will come naturally. For SURGED changelings and characters with the bio- or cyberware I would not allow it. For them it is foreign.

However, there still may be arcane corporate research units from S-K, MCT and Aztechnology developing a metamagic technique that enables a magician to use a different sense then sight for targeting. I think that would also be balancing, IMHO.

I can agree with that LabRat. Makes sense.

This was needed instead of stating that it worked like the regular ultrasound vision enhancement that is able to be applied to glasses. Stating that it did not create the visual overlay/replacement would have been good too, since all the other ultrasound 'ware does.

MJ, thank you for quoting him again, when I brought up a new point that I don't think I've used in this discussion before. So, how about you answer the question, would you agree that by getting all 3 'ware you then use the ultrasound vision modifiers when making visual perception tests?

I am sorry if my quote came off as flippant, but your post was short enough that I thought you were still arguing that Echolocation (even full biological echolocation) was good enough for magical LOS purposes in metahumans. (For which question the quote was appropriate.) I still believe that SR4 is internally consistent on the topic, and that the confusion mostly stems from those that remember that Ultrasound was a vision mod in SR3, and IIRC, could therefore be used for magical LOS in SR3 under a literal reading of SR3 RAW.

As for mundane targeting, I would agree that full echolocation, be it bat, dolphin, or metahuman, should work just like ultrasound for mundane targeting purposes.

I also agree with LabRat, that Awakened critters born with full echolocation should be able to use it for magical LOS, and in fact used that as a house-rule for a run involving awakened bats.

If running wild officially gives such critters the ability, than I would assume by extrapolation that the same is also true for metahumans born with full echolocation, unless told otherwise.

(By the way, I do not think that allowing Ultrasound for magical LOS is broken, just a house-rule not allowed by RAW.)

Ultrasound could NOT be used for magical targetting in SR3. There was no question about it. It had a much better limitation on what could/could not be used for targetting.

If you agree that it uses the ultrasound vision modifiers for visual tests, then can you agree that as far as the ruleset is concerned, ultrasound is vision?

Echolocation forms a "mental image", Ultrasound forms an image overlay. Neither is vision for magical LOS. They are described in terms of vision for mundane purposes, because that is how most perception is described in general, and for mundane purposes they are close enough that a whole set of different rules would be a waste of effort.

If I concentrate I can form a very accurate mental image of the next room, even though I am not in there. I cannot see the items in the room, but with enough skill I could shoot one of them through the wall, since I know exactly where it is.

Memory != sensory input.

You still didn't answer what I asked.

What I said boils down to Ultrasound is like vision, but it is not actually vision.

What are you fishing for?

Does it use the vision modifiers from the table? Would you say that as far as the rules are concerned, it is vision?

Of course full Echolocation would use the Ultrasound column. However that does not make it "vision" as a sense, just functionally like vision for non-magical purposes (enough to use the same accuracy rules).

Are you really surprised—after this thread—that I thought you were hoping I would just say "yes" so that you could then say something like "well if it is vision, than it can be used for LOS" etc.

The fact that it is like vision enough to use the vision modifiers (and the lack of any other text banning it for magical LOS) to me is ambiguous enough to need errata for the spellcasting rules and/or the descriptions of ultrasound/radar/echolocation.

Sigh, already covered above, no errata needed.

You said you think it is internally consistent. How is it using vision modifiers but not being vision internally consistent?

Perception tests cover more than the visual, and are used for more than targeting for spell casting. That's why ultrasound is listed with modifiers.

Ultrasound is in the vison modifiers table. You say it is not vision.

This is not consistent.

Those would be situations that disrupt your "mapping" with ultrasound. Being that ultrasound is converted to a visual means to see it, that visual "map" would be appropriately distorted, hence the modifiers.

Oh? So full darkness disrupts ultrasound mapping?

No, but Silence does. Golly, I wonder why.

Have you ever thought that it would be because your real vision is screwed and you have nothing to map your ultrasound overlay to?

Whoa, Whoa, whoa....

For a while there I thought you were arguing for Ultrasound vision enhancements in cybereyes. I went through and re-read some things in the core book, and you can't even put ultrasound sensors and receivers in cybereyes. The only way you can view it is through the aid of an image link/ ultrasound display on some technological means and that pretty much kills all of your argument. yeah, there is headware for echolocation and ultrasound. It shows your brain a map. But it isn't vision through the eyes without the aid of technology, and it sure isn't your natural way of viewing things. Argument over, can't be used to target spells.

However, I did like the idea of maybe using it if it was the primary means of viewing things, like with awakened bats or critters. Their brains are developed for that sort of thing.

Ultrasound takes a -3 in full darkness also. Why's that?


What? How does this make sense at all?


Uh, welcome to the thread?
No, I never argued for ultrasound in a cybereye. You are right, you cannot put ultrasound in a cyber eye. You can get it as cyberware yes. Or as bioware with some other implants too. "But it isn't vision through the eyes without the aid of technology" and cybereyes are? Pray-tell how is a cybereye not technology? Also please quote where it says that it has to go through your eyes. Since a cybereye stuck in your hand is perfectly valid for targetting spells with also.

I'd say that the phrase "natural vision" in the targeting section of the spellcasting order of operations pretty much covers that. As a GM, I'd also rule that any cybereyes implanted in ones hands don't work, they aren't natural. They'd need all kinds of wiring and redirecting to be used, but it'd be an extra sense, not a natural one. Same goes for both ultrasound and echolocation. They are extra senses, not natural vision.

Only eyes (and cybereyes) may be used for magical LOS targeting, with image links specifically excluded.

Ultrasound (implanted or not) is non-visual data, presented as a visual overlay, but not actually vision (this is described clearly in the Ultrasound description). In all cases such overlays are not allowed for magical LOS targeting.

Both full Echolocation bioware (Augmentation, p.63–67) and the Biosonar metagenetic quality (Runner's Companion, p.111) are specifically described as biological versions of Ultrasound, hence using those rules and limitations.

No clarification or errata is needed. Sound based "vision" (bio or not) is not good enough for magic LOS.

No matter how much you parse any one sentence in the rules to argue otherwise, the above is clear in the rules as a whole.

Arguments about "its bio" or "it paid for with essence" are pointless since no matter how "vision-like" Ultrasound/Echolocation/Biosonar is, it is not vision for magical LOS.

Now, if one were to house-rule that awakened bats and dolphins can magically target via their natural biosonar; than one could extrapolate that metahumans with the Biosonar metagenetic quality should be able to also, since they were born with the sense. While I would allow this in my campaign, it is not RAW.

Side note:

My understanding of the weird cybereye location rules, is that they do work for magic LOS so long as they are implanted, but if removed from the body (cybereye drone etc.) than the data becomes an image link and is no longer good enough.

From a game-balance point of view, a weirdly located cybereye, is no different than mage-sight goggles, and actually more limited.

Thats fine that you'd rule that way, but understand that it would be a house rule and not RAW.


Quote please? Somewhere where it says only eyes? What about eyebands?


Not actually vision? Its clear?
SR4, 324, "Ultrasound: The ultrasound accessory consists of an emitter that sends out continuous ultrasonic pulses and a receiver that picks up the echoes of these pulses to create a topographic ultrasound “map� that is laid over (or replaces) the user’s normal visual sensory input. While ultrasound vision is perfect to “see� textures, calculate exact distances, and pick up things otherwise invisible to the naked eye (like people cloaked by an invisibility spell), it is less adept at other tasks like perceiving colors and brightness. It cannot penetrate materials like glass that would be transparent to optical sensors."

I think its pretty clear that it is vision as far as what your brain thinks.


Which is why they should work. The reason given for ultrasound/radar not working is because of the computer processing involved. THe bioware/surge doesn't have any computer processing, so it should work.


A quote would be nice. Nothing says that at all, it just says that tech stuff doesn't work unless paid for with essence.


I again, disagree. The targetting rules say that stuff paid for with essence is good enough, and you pay for essence for these mods. Therefore, it should be good enough. Now, Synner has said that this is not so, which is why the books should be fixed.


Nothing says it isn't magical LOS directly. It being paid for with essence satisfies the criteria for being able to be used for magical LOS.


Thats house rules, which I'm not trying to get into here.

How many times do we have to quote the magical targeting "natural vision." Nobody has ultrasound as a natural vision because it isn't even vision. It's another use of sense of sound. How many times do we need to go over this before you comprehend what ultrasound is? It's handled as a vision sense in the book to make things simple. Obviously it's so simple that simpletons take it a bit to literally.

And the part about cyber or bio enhancements paid for with essence can be used means nothing to you? Thermo isn't natural for a human, but a human mage who gets cybereyes with thermal can target with it. It isn't "natural vision" but can still be used. Your point doesn't have backing behind it.

Ultrasound is seen by the character, I don't know why you can't realize that. It isn't "I hear a person there" You see it. That is vision.

Tarantula your own quoting above answered the question.

Ultrasound is "laid over (or replaces) the user’s normal visual sensory input".

Echolocation is biotech Ultrasound and follows the same rules.

Magical targeting prohibits the use of such laid over inputs no matter how visual they seem. This rules out all inputs not generated by the eyes or cybereyes (and eyebands are specifically a type of cybereye.)

It is clear to me now that you do not really care what the rules on this topic mean, you just hope to get them changed to what you seem to want them to mean (ultrasound based LOS targeting)

That is clearly not going to happen, and your continued rehashing of your complaint is wasting the time of everybody who is still responding.

And before you argue that only "technological" overlays are prohibited, cybertech and biotech are both "technological".

As I said if critters born with Biosonar can use it for LOS targeting than metahumans born with Biosonar should be able to as well, but by RAW nothing can LOS target even with Biosonar.

Oh? Wheres the quote for that?


Thats funny, because I actually want it to be changed to agree with Synners statement, that ultrasound, etc. should NOT be allowed for spell targetting. My point is that at the moment, the rules do not make that clear.


How is bioware technological? Its an organ.

Obviously your grasp of the English language fails you. When the sentence before "cyber or bio enhancements" specifically mentions "natural vision," those enhancements that the writers are referring to are specifically for enhancing or replacing their "natural vision." That's why a human who gets cybereyes with thermo and low light can now cast in them. They become innately natural with the cybereyes. If someone gets a bioware version of troll's or cat's eyes, then they can now cast in that light spectrum because that is natural. That sentence, yes, could have been better written to say something like ""cyber or bio <eye> enhancements paid for with Essence," but it doesn't, so you context clues to stop being such a literal idiot. That's part of the ambiguity of the English language and why other cultures miss out on some of our nuances. You need to know that the information specifying which enhancements fall under this rule were already mentioned in the previous sentence.

Here's what irks me though. Lets say the writers did re-write the sentence so you better understood what kind of cyber or bio enhancements would count and could be used like I mentioned above. Then you would find some stupid reason why you couldn't justify cat's eyes or troll eyes to be used because they are labeled as bioware and not "eyeware." Stop taking things literally without understanding the context. Didn't you ever go to school and learn that things taken out of context can have completely different meanings?

Echolocation specifically references the ultrasound enhancement for vision. So it is an enhancement to vision, and since it is paid for with essence, should be valid for targetting with.

The fact that Synner has clarified this once, should show that its ambiguous enough to need clarification, but no errata has been mentioned for it. I just want for errata to happen.

We all know the drill now, and everyone (some more than others and including myself) are all looking like ass-hats. Bull, lock and shut this thread down so I can stop compulsively posting in here.

What I'd suggest for errata (since its fairly obvious they only want the normal vision to be used) would be to make the sentence something like, "Mages can only cast with normal, low-light, or thermographic vision, whether natural or implanted. Mages can use external vision enhancements, but they must be optical. (Example, Optical Devices, Pg 324). Mages can also target using astral perception."

This covers any ware like eye bands, thermo, trolls/cats eyes, cybereyes, weird locations for cyber eyes, and astrally perceiving, but bans glasses with thermo, ultrasound, radar, echolocation whether implanted or not, and even natural biosonar via surge.

The only reason to leave the sentence open like they did, is if they planned for mages to be able to later target with some kind of vision enhancement that isn't in the main book. (In which case they could just have that gear state it allows magical targetting explicitly).

No, though I would agree that you could make a non-visual perception test with those modifiers, instead of the standard ones.



Wait, what? That's retarded. Even the ultrasound vision system shouldn't have a penalty for darkness, it has nothing to do with light.

Except it does. The visibility table on sr4, 140.

it's -3 for thermo in full darkness, just like it's -3 for ultrasound in full darkness - presumably because you lose all the other useful bits of information like color recognition, etc.

Also, -3 seems to be the go-to for non-standard perception: it's -3 for using magesight goggles, too.

Remember that since ultrasound is overlaid on your vision, if you are in full darkness, you more or less have no vision to on which an ultrasound map will overlay. That's a good reason for a -3. You lose reference and additional detail.

Because, y'know, being in total darkness totally stops your image-link from displaying data. I mean, when you turn the lights off, your computer monitor stops working too! Oh wait! It doesn't!

Now, if they gave you a blanket -3 on perception tests using ultrasound, that would make sense, but no, apparently lack of ambient light screws up the sound based system that, and I quote, "...replaces normal vision."

I still say it's retarded.

why do you people keep forgetting that it OVERLAYS before it replaces. That's what a parentheses usually means. If it overlays, your normal vision doesn't stop working, it's just added on top of it. If it replaces, that means your normal vision has stopped working and your only visual input would be the overlay, which while just as detailed as it always is, doesn't have the added bonuses of being added to your normal vision for reference. It's basically saying you'd always be taking a negative 3 while just trying to perceive using an ultrasound map. It's real vision that helps compliment its usefulness.

You guys really need to learn to read and understand context. I never said the ultrasound functions less in the dark. Your eyes do.

And explain to me how a 3d model, presumably shaded to indicate proximity, could possibly overlay normal vision without blotting it out, while still remaining useful?

Trying to use the ultrasound map and your normal vision would only make things more confusing.

Technology at the moment probably can't make such things but in 2070, I'd say it's more than plausible to have a grid overlaying your vision to determine the edges of stuff. Guess closest thing to such would be system I've seen on some heavy forest machines. They "draw" to user's visor the land's shape so the driver doesn't have to guess where to drive but instead can see a simple wire-frame illustration of how the land is in front.

-3 from ultrasound comes from the fact that you lose so many details vs. your normal sight. Can you determine from a wire-frame image the difference between a statue and a real human?

It's not really an issue of technology, it's an issue of information. We have technology now that can monitor and display ultrasound in realtime, but that doesn't change the fact that we can only process so much (visually) at a time. In your example above, the truck driver would actually have a penalty to his visual perception tests due to 'visual noise,' but a bonus to his 'deforestation check' (or whatever) due to the additional knowledge the overlay gives him.

---

I have no issue with a -3 penalty for using the ultrasound system alone, but it doesn't actually say that. It says that the visual overlay replaces your sight, not that it augments it, then it goes on to say that you take a -3 penalty in darkness. These two statements are fairly contradictory - one indicates that you are viewing only the ultrasound (which makes sense - you presumably see a greyscale image where darker = further away and lighter = closer), the other indicates that, instead, you're viewing an overlay on your normal vision, which doesn't make a lot of sense, considering the nature of the information and the limited number of ways it can be displayed.