You can get glasses or contacts with ultrasound, and that ultrasound is listed as a vision modifier. The echolocation and ultrasound 'ware reference this vision enhancement ultrasound for their rules.

This puts Ultrasound into Contacts and glasses, which I'm pretty sure we can't use any Glasses or Contacts w/Electronics for LOS spell targeting.

Echolocation, an acoustic enhancement Bioware, references an electronic Vision mod for glasses and contacts. But the acoustic enhancement by itself is not used for LOS Spell targeting. Hearing isn't used for LOS Spell targeting.

Cyber eyes, do not have any Ultrasound vision mods possible as far as I can tell. (Try and build cybereyes with Ultrasound.)

If Echolocation = Glasses w/Ultrasound is the argument for echolocation can be used for LOS Spell targeting, then that doesn't follow since glasses with any technological enhancement can't be used for LOS targeting anyway.

But, this still doesn't mean this isn't a very interesting question.

What if you could get Ultrasound on Cybereyes? It would cost essence. A mundane can use Ultrasound in glasses to overcome vision mods to target someone with a gun. ... I'm sure several megacorps are working on this as we speak.

Echolocation doesn't say it is an acoustic enhnacement, it just is bioware. Not earware, not eyeware, just bioware.
Cyber eyes do not, you are correct.

Echolocation = glasses with ultrasound paid for with essence, which is the key to why it should work according to the books.

As have been quoted multiple times it says it give you an acoustic sense, thats sounds pretty traight forward to me. It just references the rules of the ultrasound vision for the vision modifiewrs it gives, that still does not make it a frigging vision it's still an acoustic sense.

Then radar is a visual sense, because it says it is. And the ultrasound headware is visual, because it says it is an implanted version of the visual enhancement.

Your entire argument hinges on the fact that Echolocation references Ultrasound. Unfortunately, the Ultrasound Sensor headware cybernetic implant does exactly the same thing. As in exactly the same thing. Not kinda. Not sorta. But exactly the same thing.

Thus for your argument to hold any water -- that Echolocation is a vision mod solely because it references Ultrasound (despite it clearly stating that it's an acoustic sense) -- then the Ultrasound Sensor headware must also be vision. Since, for LOS allowances, both "biological" and "technological-paid-for-by-essence" are allowable.

People have been saying ultrasound is not a vision mod because it is listed in headware. I said is that if you are going to declare that echolocation is acoustic because of its description, then ultrasound is visual as it references the visual enhancement ultrasound.

You can target with vision (eyes), and therefore can target with cybereyes and eye mods if paid for with essence (making them your eyes).

There are many other senses–natural and artificial–and of all of them only touch and astral can also be used to target spells. Radar, Ultrasound, and Echolocation are simply not vision (not available as eye mods) and therefore, while paying essence for them does make them one of your "natural" senses, it does not make them vision. For a variety of reasons they are all described in terms of vision modifiers for simplicity, but that does not make them vision.

If you could target spells with hearing (ears), then you could target with cyberears and ear mods if paid for with essence (making them your ears). But that would still not allow targeting with sound-based headware. This is based on Radar being EM but not magic-targeting-quality vision since it is headware.

It seems clear to me from looking at the rules as a whole (rather than focusing on one part in a vacuum) that casting spells at a distance requires the mage to "see" the target, and that metaphysically speaking "seeing" is not the same as simply perceiving, hence the limitations that some are trying to get around.

They aren't listed as anything but bioware. So, if the echolocation bioware functions as the ultrasound vision enhancement, why does it not count?

I can just as easily argue that it is not auditory because its not an option for cyberears, so obviously it isn't an auditory mod.

You are trying to explain something metaphysical with science, and the extrapolations just don't work. In SR4 distance targeting for LOS magical effects is only possible astrally or for things you can "see" (whatever that really means for magic) with your eyes.

That's because both of those arguments are equally stupid.

It's been explained to you ad infinitum. You're arguing solely for the point of seeing yourself type. If you were standing in front of me, I would punch you in the throat for being a moron, on top of which I would then say "beep boop bop!" Which would be cursing at your in Robot for being said moron. And then I would probably kick you in the testicles while you were down just in the off-chance it would prevent you from procreating so that such a level of moron-itude would be eliminated from the gene pool. Followed up by a declaration of "bippity beep beep bop boop" which, when translated from Robot, is too profane to even mention here.

And that's all I have to say about that.

So, cyber eyes work why then? Cats eyes? Trolls eyes? Eyebands? They all work just fine. Theres not text that explicitly says cybereyes work, or ultrasound doesn't. Just that vision mods paid for with essence do.

Your hole argument hinges on the fact that echolocation references the rules for ultrasound vision, but that all it does.
So from rules point of view it funktions like the Ulrasound vision mod, but that does not in any way change the fact that echolocation is not a vision no matter what other implants you have.

What about cat's/troll's eyes?

Ok, the ultrasound vision implant is not inside the cybernetic eye. But is that really the reason for not allowing spell targetting with it?
In the end, it does the same as a cybereye: it feeds signals into the nerve cells that conduct visual stimuli to the brain. And it has been paid for with essence.

By your logic, an eyeband would not be usable for spell targetting either:

I think you should consider switching to decaf.

well, at least he's honest about it O.o
and how cruel can you be to ask someone to deprive themselves of caffeine? ;_;

Okay, seriously, why the fuck is this thread still going, especially still in regards to the original topic?

YES

Replacing your EYES with another kind of eye is perfectly allright as they all have one thing in common.

They are all connected directly to the visual cortex

Enhancements regardless of Bioware or Cyberware (Simply 'Ware) that ISN'T wired to your visual cortex but presented as a visual overlay.

In your argument that the semi-natural sense of a biological Echolocation will not make you SEE anything.

You make "klick" sounds with your mounth and your ears hear the sound bouncing in the room and then you brain interprets it to make a "mental" image of the room - Not a visual one.

You still do not "see" the people you want to spellcast at.

Although - physical indirect combat spells that function like shooting could work as they follow the rules for shooting so it would be a modified blind fire at a -4D6 to the pool.

There, I said it - you are PARTIALLY right.

Any spellcasting where you target a person with a mana spell or where it is NOT shooting rules then it wont work.

Is it bothering you that much?

Wouldn't any ultrasound 'ware have to connect to the visual cortex also? You don't need an image link or anything ot use it, just the implant, and it does overlay/replace your vision. So somehow, that implant is making you see things. Most likely? By plugging into your visual cortex.


How is it overlayed?


Sure, if you only have the basic echolocation 'ware. If you combine it with the vocal range enhancement and hearing range enhancement, then you can make ultrasound, and the ware makes you see it. Is it really that hard to understand?


If it is replacing or overlaying on your vision, how are you not seeing them?


Sure, never was question about that.


I still disagree, and think the books need correction to match what Synner has said.

No then you just make the "klick" in ultrasound thanks to your enchanted vocal range and then you hear it thanks to your enchanted hearing range, nothing else changes. There is no modifications to your brain.

I'm still waiting for you to explain why do you think that expanding the range of freguencies someone can hear and vocally produce somehow magically turns an acoustic sense into a visual sense.

Well, instead of going *click* and getting a flash, you're able to emit like an ultrasound sensor, and get a constant updated picture of whats going on, that is a visual one overlayed or replacing your vision. Why? Because, thats what it says the ultrasound enhancement does, and echolocation with those other enhancements does the same. The books say so. Does it make sense? Not so much, but its what they say and thats why I think they need correction.

Just a quick sidequestion: How many mages are there that are affected of the ruling of this matter in question? Yes, you can reduce the negative effect of fog/darkness/stuff by few but seriously, does this really make such a big difference in someone's game that it must have immediate response from the devs?

Not like you can see through walls with this so either way, it makes not that much difference. I think we have to ask bats or dolphins how they "see" this topic

i didn't want to get involved in this, but it's gone on far too long to ignore.

Ultrasound is not a visual sense. It is an audio one. HOWEVER. We humans are not so attuned to making out what we hear by sound alone, so there is a wonderful invention called ultrasound vision. This is a visual representation of the spacial relationships of objects in the room. One can make out the differences, but they are vague. With ultrasound, one couldn't tell the difference between two people in a room, just that there are two people there. How ever, this conversion of ultrasound to a vision is a purely technical and electronic one because as everybody else is telling you, it is an auditory sense. The bioware "echolocation" creates a sense organ that helps the human brain better translate the data the ears are getting from the sonic "clicking" and create a mental image which for the sake of the rules is akin to the ultrasound vision overlay.

Radar sense is another one that while it works like ultrasound, but goes through walls. It uses radio waves (which we humans can't create by ourselves <save Technomancers>) to send and receive data, which again, we can't read. We have to rely on technology to convert the signals into a "visual" sense so we can understand the spacial relationships of objects to each other. Again, thank you goggles, glasses, and cybereyes.

As far as using optical enhancements to cast spells through, it's totally in the rules. At the beginning of the spell casting order of operations page ("Choose the target" p. 173) it says that there can't be any technological means to enhance or recreate the vision. Here, I'll let the rule speak for itself.

"A spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or
bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot
targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves
for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic
binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."

So trolls and dwarves can cast with their thermo becuase it's their natural vision, everyone else can use their regular vision or low light. Outside of that, the ultrasound is a technologically created vision sense and cant be used. With bioware, it becomes an entirely new kind of sense that has nothing to do with vision.

But, optical enhancements work when spellcasting. That's why mage sight goggles work. They use fiber optic cable to bend light around and see where you need to look. Glasses, telescopes, binoculars, they are all optical based and therefore only use the bending of light through lenses and are used by mages. Vision mag (if it's optical) is even allowed to reduce visual modifiers if the target is too far away. But, digital zooms (like in cybereyes) aren't allowed because that's an electronic enhancement.

Sometimes instead of arguing for 9 pages back and forth, one should just look up and educate themselves about the subject matter (ie as in read how the real world equivalent works on a resource site or in a book) and exercise common sense instead of beating a dead horse.

I'll go through your post slowly.


Ultrasound is visual, because that is the end result of the way we see it. And you can tell the differences between the people, you can still recognize their faces. They'd just be colorless, think greyscale. It is not an auditory sense, because the end result of you having the 'ware is that you see the room. Not hear it, but you see the room. Why? Thats what the book says, its a visual overlay or replacement.


It still converts it into a visual sense.


No one is arguing this. But why can a human go get cybereyes, with thermo enhancement, and cast with those?


Digital zooms in cybereyes work fine. So does thermographic or low light. But only in cybereyes. Not on glasses. Why? Because you paid for it with essence. Same arguement for ultrasound and why you should be able to cast with it.


You should have read through the previous arguments before bringing up things that have already been addressed. Thats why this thing keeps going, people jump in, make their point, and I make the same counter-point against it that I did to the first guy 6 pages ago.

No you're not the book is pretty damm clear about this.


So you're pretty much just being a way too literal idiot who just lings to a one sentence, about how those three implans work like the true ultrasound system, instead of actully reading how those three implants desricptions say them working.

I agree it would be good if the errata for Aug removed that reference to BBB, but just reading the description of those three implants allready make it clear that compining them doesn't give you a vision.

SR is a game not real life and some things will never be explained to everyone's satisfaction with real science. If you can see something only with your own eyes (natural or paid for with essence) than you can target it for LOS purposes. The one exception is external devices that are purely optical such as fiber-optics, and old-school binoculars, telescopes, etc.

Anything else no matter how it's is described just does not work. If you are unhappy with that than you need to make yourself a house rule, or stay unhappy.


Now for a tangent, it just occurred to me that by the rules, a mage in a high-flying platform, could use a really high power optical scope to target those on the ground with impunity. Think space station with enough living biomass to makes casting possible, and a mage looking through an optical system with enough magnification to identify targets on the ground.

Doesn't keep you from being wrong.



You don't need to tell me how to think ultrasound should look. I've watched videos of ultrasound (and not medical applications). Have you ever seen algorithmic representation of what ultrasound creates? Because that is what your vision would be. It's not exact and precise. Given the technology jump from now to 2070, I'd argue that you'd possibly be able to make out who it is you're looking at, but the modifiers and a perception test take care of that. Plus, it's not you that hears the ultrasound. It's your sensors that then in turn pick up the data and convert it to a visual display for you. It'd be like looking through two video monitors. Have you seen "The Dark Knight" ? that's a radar system that uses math and radio waves to create 3D images that are directly displayed via screens. Even Batman had to use dopey looking glasses/goggles to see that way. It's not a vision. It's data converted to a visual display, no different than a monitor or electronic screen, which by the rules say you can't use to target. If you are using cybereyes, that visual overlay is just another step or perk of imagelink and the ability to overlay anything on what you are actually seeing.



Yeah, as in you use your eyes to view the visual representation of the data.



Yeah, I see it's your same argument, but it's not applicable. Once again, ultrasound is just a display of of sonic data using the reverberations and the doppler effect to create an image. It's purely electronic. The bioware "organ" interperts this data and creates for all intents and purposes a mental image, but is still not sight or vision related.



I did read through the previous arguments. You're the only one on your side of the fence and everyone else is on the logical side. You're fighting a war that uses the tactics of ignoring those who provide points against your argument and are borderline Trolling here just to read what you've typed. The only reason I've jumped in was because I thought I could phrase it better for you to understand.

Yes, I am being literal. The books don't agree with the devs, and need correction.
How do you know the echolocation implant doesn't connect to the visual cortex the same way a third eye would, and that is how you see the information? It doesn't say it does, but it doesn't say it doesn't either.


Actually, I've been looking, and I found a nice loophole. The borrow sense/animal sense/eyes of the pack spell. It does not explicitly ban targetting through borrowed sight. I forsee a control thoughts and influence spells being very useful with this. Control thoughts someone, and then borrow his sight. Have him walk in and do what you need to do, cast influence through his sight on anyone for them to let him do what he is doing.


Problem is, the spells get owned via background count unless they're instant duration spells. And, even in a -6 void the mage still sucks drain as if the spell was cast with +6 force.

A cybereye is an electronic device that sends visual stimuli to the brain. The ultrasound vision implant does the same.

The only difference between the two lies in how the device generates the data. In one case, it reads incoming electromagnetic waves. In the other case, it is based on sound waves. What Tarantula is saying (correct me if I'm wrong), is that the way in which the device actually generates that data is not relevant. Or at least it shouldn't according to RAW, because it isn't mentioned anywhere. As long as the brain gets visual stimuli that can be interpreted to pinpoint the target's location, and the implant that generates those signals has been paid for with essence, spell targetting should work.

Not all cybereyes would be digital or electronic. There would still be optical based cybereyes. While the ultrasound mod would have both an emitter for the sonic waves and a receptor to receive them, there would still need to be a digital or electronic conversion to create data and "map" (as said in the book) a picture that our visual centers would be able to pick up. It's no different in RL when we look at a thermographic display. We aren't really seeing in thermographic, we are seeing a thermographic senor convert that sense to our visible light spectrum so we can understand it with our senses.

A cybereye is by its very nature an electronic camera that sends out a signal that can be interpreted by the brain as visual stimuli.

Ultrasound is an electronic sensor that shows a representation of its data as a visual signal that can be sent to the brain.

The scientific differences are small enough to have cause this entire thread.

BUT, this is a game with artificial rules that often use techno babel to explain items for fluff or suspension of disbelief reasons. In the end, how any of these implants would work in the real world is immaterial.

Some implants can be used for LOS targeting and they are all eyeware, so for magical purposes it is not "vision" if it is not in the eyes. Based on all of that it would not be out of line to assume that an image link could be used for targeting, but they are specifically described as not usable for magical LOS targeting.

If you want to explain your groups house rule on the matter have fun; but using the supposed science behind an imaginary implant to change the official rules is pointless. (and now very very very redundant)

Troll and cat eye bioware is not explicitly eyeware, just bioware. Yet you can cast with them. Echolocation is just bioware, but you can't cast with it.

I just would like the books corrected to be consistent with what the devs have said, that is all.

That's a big stretch there. One really has to play the "ignore common sense card" to claim that just because Troll and Cat's eyes are in the same category of bioware as echolocation just because they aren't listed under "eyeware."

I mean, come on, they are a pair of eyes...

They make you see things. Echolocation makes you see things. Not that big of a jump.

Echolocation gives you a sense that the mundane brain interprets as vision-like. But it is not truly vision and cannot be used for magical LOS targeting. The same is officially true for Radar and Echolocation.

And I'd like for the books to match the dev comments that agree with you. Currently, the books just say they overlay/replace vision, which to me(and a few other people at least) means its vision.

If you parse specific rules carefully enough you will always find contradictions. No publisher could possibly cover that level of rules-lawyering. If the rules as a whole cover the point than an endless stream of overly specific errata is not the best use of the developers time.

Since Ultrasound, Radar, and Echolocation are external to the eyes, they are covered under external overlays not being usable for magical LOS targeting. Hence the errata you want is already there.

The full rules sentence says, SR4, 173, "Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."
So, by your reasoning, they are valid, as they have been paid for with essence. "External to the eyes" is not ever given as a requirement for casting.

Looking at that whole sentence:

A spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used.

The first half of the sentence in question (taken by itself) would allow LOS targeting with implanted Radar and Ultrasound, but the second half goes on to say that "technological visual aids" that substitute themselves for the eyes are not good enough (nothing about those overlays being implanted or external). Ultrasound for example specifically describes using such an overlay, hence no good for magical targeting.

No errata needed.

"but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses...cannot be used."

I think as a group we have addressed that Ultrasound is a technological visual aid because we don't see sonic reverberations. Even if it is being used as a "visual sense", it is replaces the character's true visual sense (though it's use of overlays or substitution) and by it's very technological existence, can't be used by the RAW. The echolocation for all intents and purposes follows the same rules governed by ultrasound and therefore would be also excluded from being used to target spells. There is the definite wording you were looking for, and I think that pretty much sums it up.

The eyeband is also external to the eyes, since it surrounds the head completely to give a 360° vision. Does that mean you can't use it for spelltargetting either?

They are classified as Eyeware and are basically Cybernetic eyes. The main connection goes through the eye sockets just like regular cyberyes but then it extends around the head.

A cybereye also replaces one's true visual sense: the eyes are removed and replaced by some device interfaced with the visual nerve cells. Then you "see" what the device is sending you. Just as for ultrasound vision.

The ultrasound vision implant is not physically located in what used to be the eyes. But neither is the eyeband, so the implant's location should not be a criteria for spell targetting.

What seems to matter is that the signals the device is sending to the brain through the visual nerve cells must have been generated based on electromagnetic waves (IR or visual light, doesn't matter). If it's based on sound waves, it suddenly doesn't work anymore, although the stimuli sent to the brain are interpreted in both cases as "I see something I want to cast a spell on". That's fine by me, but it's not logical at all.

In fact, to me the eyeband should even be less adequate for spell casting than the ultrasound vision, since the 360° vision completely distorts what you would be seing with your "normal" eyes.

The user can also choose how distorted the vision can be. At worst it would be a 360 degree field of view but incur a -2D6 dicepool modifier to casting.

You are forgetting one thing about Ultrasound and echolocation. It's converted to a visual "map" before we register it in our visual centers.

Here's the breakdown. Visible light turned into a picture by our visual centers. Ultrasonic klicks are mathematically converted into a picture/map of visible light then received by our visual centers. Same for radar (except it is radio waves and not sonic waves). The book says under ultrasound that it is turned into a "mapped" image overlayed normal vision. The part where it talks about how it replaces vision would be if you turned off your normal optical sensors with cybereyes and just used the ultrasound. You'd just be looking at a visual representation of sonic reverberations pumped in front of your visual centers that in turn receive the light and turn it into your mental image. You're missing the big electronic step.

You have light up to the retina, which is part of the biologic eye. From this point on, photons are transformed into nerve impulses, light is out of the game.

In case of cybereyes, the retina is replaced along with the original eyes, and the cybereyes are just devices that directly send those nerve impulses to the brain. There is nothing about "sending light to the visual centers". It's just and electronic device that converts light to electric impulses.

Honestly I don't mind if ultrasound vision cannot be used for spell targetting. It's just how magic works in SR4 and we shouldn't try to explain or justify it, because there is no explanation. That whole light/sound thing doesn't hold water in my opinion. If you think otherwise, then so much the better for you.

And what about the bioware implant, that does the exact same thing, but is organic and not electronic?

But here is where we get back to the fact that despite it is organic, it isn't visual. Read up on your echolocation and how bats and dolphins use it.