Keep in mind, there are soldiers and there are Soldiers - Combat Support, Service Support and likely even rank-and-file Combat won't see these fielded en masse unless the tech has become so prevalent in society as whole that anyone can afford to pick a suit up at the corner Quick-Mart. Ya know, like cell phones or GPS systems.

Groups with insane budgets and the latitude to spend that budget damn near at whim will more likely have access to these - say, Spec Ops?

-Siege

I just want to know what you do for a living that you're such an expert on current military doctrine and equipment. Soldiers now have more protection than they ever did, but it doesn't weigh as much because of advances in materials science. That trend is extrapolated out to 2070 to give you what they have in the Shadowrun rulebooks. And despite your whining, there are situations where heavy milspec armor would be appropriate for a military force in 2070 to be equipped with, and because of the budgets of the megacorps/governments involved, if the equipment is appropriate for the mission, it's safe to assume they have it.

Ok, I'll try again: If you can save an investment of several 100K by spending 20K, you do it. If you have a budget of 500K, and can either have 5 soldiers with crap armor, or 4 soldiers with the best armor you can have, and the 5 soldiers are much more likely to die due to their crap armor, quickly leaving you with less than 5 soldeirs anyway - like none - you take the "4 guys in armor" option.

And, as you may have noticed, the US army did increase their body armor a lot compared to WW2. So, it stands to reason that in the next 60 years, we'll get more and better armor too.

I'm 6' 4" and 240 lbs. Wear my clothes. I have a big ol' nugget. Wear my fitted hat. I have small feet for my size. Wear my boots.

Now hike 20+ miles, fight in a battle, and tell me how things went.

Getting the idea?

The military spends a huge amount of cash to make sure that each soldier is as comfortable as possible given the conditions. It means that soldier fights harder, smarter, and more effectively because they can focus on the job rather than how much their feet hurt.

Body armor has to be form-fitting to work correctly (unless it's just a plate in a fitted vest holder a la military) right? Every cop gets fitted for their vests because even sitting in car you get tired and sloppy if you're getting pinched everywhere. It has to move Ok or you're like that kid in 'A Christmas Story' with his arms stuck out. It has to be these things so you can move, shoot, and think efficiently in a combat situation. Now why is mil-spec armor suddenly different? My arm is longer than your typical Hispanic recruits. Why would my arm plate fit his armor? I have a 44" shoulder and no boobs. Why would that chest assembly fit a female? I have a 33" inseam. Why would my leg assembly fit Micheal Jordan?

Way to ignore the fact that this armor lasts a hell of a lot longer than the same dude with standard armor. I'd rather lose 100 guys at 30k for their armor each, than a few thousand when i only spent a couple hundred.


Also, I would assume the armor is basically a shell, with a form fit liner in it thats customized. Theres even rules for re-customizing it with an armorer check. So yes, you can pump out a few thousand, ship them to where they need to go, then have the armorers there customize them for the super fancy elites that're gonna train for 'em.

That too. But in general, those out in direct harm's way tend to get better armor. Especially if they take losses that would have been prevented with better armor. Because when it comes down to money, everyone would rather spend 20K on a suit - especially if they are carrying weapons and other gear that cost as much or even more, and are transported by even more expensive vehicles - so they do not lose out on the several hundred K spent on training those guys.

If we're talking about reconditioning milspec armor for use by a different person in the context of a large military force, then it's no big deal. You have an inventory of armor suits, and when someone comes in you get a suit that's close to their body size and fit it to them (different pads, adjustable straps/connectors, and who knows what else). In fact, I believe the milspec armor section in Arsenal even mentions doing this. If you're just equipping a small elite force with it, then it's not that big of a deal that when someone buys the farm that you can't reuse their armor.

Yes, and the casualty rates took a Hugh Jass nosedive, too. Of course, those vests are part of an overall system of load bearing equipment and general restructuring of our fighting forces and don't cost 30K each, either. Now that the casualty rates are way down and you're saving money with current gear, convince those bean counters that the extra 5-10% reduction in casualties is worth 15 times the costs before training.

Ahh...but the SR Spec Ops aren't being run on an unlimited budget. Congress doesn't have a large group of very interested and worrisome shareholders to worry about, after all. Americans are largely apathetic when it comes to military policy because it doesn't affect our daily lives any more than, "That's a shame" when we hear about another Johnny ApplePie getting ganked on the news. You dump 100M into Ares stocks and they had better not be wasting your hard-earned money on dumb shit like 30K armor for some low-rent knuckledragger with a large knife and machinegun fetish!

I think you are mixing up SR and current time, and pulling casualty number reduction rates out of thin air.

Leaving aside your assumptions about Ares, where on earth do you get the idea that the military of the UCAS, CAS etc. don't have Spec Ops forces?

Since we're talking credentials here - I'm an E-4/SPC, currently stationed at Fort Bragg, NC. I work in the Combat Service Support side of the house. I have one deployment to Iraq. Troops deploying to Iraq from Bragg go through RFI (Rapid Fielding Initiative) where they get issued an Army Combat Helmet (ACH), Interceptor Body Armor (IBA) [vest, yoke, collar, groin protector], SAPI plates and some various odds and ends. On Anaconda, we got side plates, side-mounted kevlar for inside the vest and deltoid (arm) protectors.

IBA is sized Small, Medium, Large and X-Large. I think it may go one size higher, but I can't swear to it. There is no distinction for boobs.

"Standard Issue" can and often does vary wildly from one post to another, even from one unit to another.

Being directly in harm's way does not guarantee you get the good stuff - whether for ammo, vehicle parts or personal equipment. Your supply section does, however, tend to be a lot more motivated to try and get the high speed stuff when and where possible.

Don't kid yourself - there are a huge number of considerations that go into allocating budgets to buy gear and equipment.

-Siege

Virtually unlimited - sound better? Huge? Borderline absurd?

Spec Ops doesn't operate in a vacuum with no oversight, but they can and do spend a substantial amount of money on training and equipment.

The rabid, snake-eating loner may not be the truth, but it ain't far from the truth either.

-Siege

Edit: Sorry, I missed the "SR" distinction earlier - although I can't say that I see it changing much either. SR spec ops are, well, shadow runners. Industrial espionage and so forth - anything for that competitive edge. When you're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars on research and development or stealing someone else's research and development, smaller amounts spent on hedging your bets becomes more plausible. In my humble opinion.

In the SR timeline, SEAL Team 6 and any MegaCorp's Special Projects Section have probably said hi in the night once or twice.

Umm...ok. Please name a previous or ongoing war or anti-insurgency operation with similar troop strengths involved, duration of deployment, and had a lower casualty and death rate than those found in Iraq and Afghanistan today. It was more deadly to live in Chicago this last summer than both of those war-zones combined, if you want a real-life statistic.

But hey, straight from my ass, right?

Yes, since there was no actual, real conflict in which 2070s powered armor was used, so your predictions of how much such armor would reduce casualty ratings compared to 2070s non-powered armor are pulled out of your ass.

I think that current conflicts would look quite different with Ares Arms, Shiawase Arms, and WeaponsWorld in each town. No real need to discuss imaginary future tech, future old-tech shopping opportunities are quite enough.

Dude, the modern perception of power armor, and thus our discussion topic, was pulled out of Robert A Heinlein's ass over 50 years ago. What's your point?

BTW, he made a lot of the same points I've made back then as well if you want to pick up a copy of the Starship Troopers novel at the local library. His version of power armor troops was about 10,000 strong for any entire galactic federation, however. Nuclear RPGs FTW!

We're looking at the lowest non-combat attrition rate in the history of warfare for a fighting force. We're looking at the lowest per-man fatality rate for an operation of this type, scope, operational tempo, and viciousness in history. The leading causes of casualties are explosions and their secondary effects. A wounded soldier has an 80% (probably higher now) chance of survival if they can get to a decent trauma center within one hour. 80% of people who get shot survive which still makes the firearm the A-1 weapon of choice because everything else sucks worse.

With all of these real-world stats, how is over four times the cost and a per-attack average of two wound boxes "worth it" in the realm of even fantasy economics? Let's say that big ol' burly bug breaks off a claw in a trooper. Force 6 is fairly nasty for a damage of 8 or so. Joe Blow soaks 1 (Body 3) and his full-body armor with helmet running at 7K before a few cheapo mods soaks another 3.33. Joe blow is now at a -1 modifier and 4 physical. Medic anyone? Drop some drugs, pop a few banages and he's good to go back for some fun.

Now here comes mobility enhanced heavy mil-spec guy. His armor runs at 20K with a 10K helmet before he even adds his mobility goodies and strength adds (which seem to be lacking prices in Arsenal...annoying). He's a bit tougher as he's a superfly badboy but we'll low ball to an average soak of 1.33 (Body 4) because there might be an candy-ass elf or two in the mix, right? Now spec op deathmachine guy has an average armor soak against Hugh Jass bug claws and other pokey bits of 5.33 for a combined average soak of 6.66 and 2 physical boxes left over. So for a whole mess more money you save a whopping 1 die in combat effectiveness according to RAW? Whee!

Now, take these stats of average wounding and reduction in combat effectiveness to the aforementioned bean counters. Tell them, in clear and concise wording, why a minimum outlay of 4x cost, before additional training, is a great idea because that 1 die is the difference to a 15+ dice Combat Gawd. They'll be very interested to hear it...no really!

And yes, this was out of may ass as well. Handy place to store things. Just ask convicts!

@Psychohipps: Do you have links for all those statistics? I at least would be interested (not for SR reasons).

Game logic: In a game with a death spiral, any chance to avoid injuries better is worth a lot. Especially if your soldier carries gear and cyberimplants worth a lot more than the armor.

Real life logic: If you spend 500K training your soldier, you don't want him and all that money spent lost for saving 20K.

Ah...if the world was only so perfect.

The reality is that with the outlay of 500K for a soldiers training they ("They" being the leaders and bean counters) expect that Agile, Flexile, Hostile sumbitch to do something suitably badass without dumping another "iffy" (these guys aren't getting shot at, right?) 30K on the asshole. They feed him, they clothe him, they gave him the best training they could find and buy, and they give him guns and ammo so now he better be ready to kick some serious ass without blowing the rest of the bank on high-tech goodies.

Take US Spec Ops forces as an example because, well, they have tons of info about them on the interwebz. They pretty much use standard issue equipment when it comes to protection and making things scream and bleed. They get better comms and a few other techno goodies because they're not surrounded by a large military apparatus and the attached supply or techno-doodads system on their typical missions. The rest of their ability to kick butt is based on using the best recruits they could find (try-out dropout rates of 60%+ are the norm here) and giving them the best training, more training, and...oh yeah...even more training.

It's not about gear (which just makes them nastier, no worthless without it), it's about insane amounts of training, physical fitness, ruthlessness, and the indomitable will to succeed at their assigned missions. They rely on stealth, deception, and surprise to do their jobs, not their ability to brawl with a superior force. A Spec Ops team bumps into something nasty, they lay down murderous accurate fire as fast as possible to stun the enemy into thinking that the team is bigger than it is and they peel off in a hopefully unexpected direction to do a runner.

Better hope that newfangled sat-com comlink works, boys...

To be honest, I loved Gin-Roh as well. But those guys were SWAT cops, not Spec Ops. SWAT cops are pretty unlucky if they have to run a quarter mile to their objective without plenty of typical urban terrain as cover. They didn't insert behind enemy lines by jumping from a perfectly stable aircraft to land in mountainous terrain without possible resupply except at very specific locations and times unless things really went pear shaped. No spare parts for that miniature turbo pump that powers your suits legs. No maintenance suite. No technicians at your beck and call. Just nigh impassable terrain and an entire country full of people who want you dead with the nearest evac being two hours out.

They have enough trouble keeping a Mark 1, Mod 0 body running in these conditions, let alone a high-tech mess of servos, gyros, hydraulics, computers, and armor plates.

And there are enough operations where you can and should use milspec armor in Shadowrun. Long-range infiltration is not exactly the only mission for the military or we'd not have tanks and anything else unsuitable for such missions.

Look, heavy milspec armor is clearly appropriate for missions like site defense or assaults on a heavily defended target. For any mission that such armor would be appropriate, any kind of special forces in 2070 are going to have access to heavy milspec armor, and are going to use it. Despite your arguments to the contrary, there is a place for heavy milspec armor and governments/corps are going to use it when it's called for.

I'm sorry, but I guess you guys TOTALLY ignored all the news reports on how the US Military was under equipped in Iraq. The Humvees were not armored. They didn't have enough body armor to outift even 20% of the battlefield and patrolling troops, etc... When the soldiers added their own armor to make the humvees safer they were ordered to take it off, NOW! Even though there was no "official" humvee armor to put on, following regulations was more important then helping soldiers live.

Since some of you guys seem to think its cost effective to give soldiers cheap armor, then I wish you all would get elected and tell those dumb ass bean counting senators in the US Congress to pay for all the armor and protect our soldiers.

You know something else I know that our government is lying about? There are over 30,000 disabled soldiers from Iraq/Afghanistan in the VA system in my state alone! They claim only about 20,000 disabled soldiers in TOTAL. Makes me wonder how accurate the death toll is, since they are lying about the crippled. That or the Arizona VA is greatly exagerating where their patient load is coming from.

So maybe, just maybe, bean counters in 2070 would be smarter, not to mention have much higher morals, to equip their soldiers as best as possible, to minimize loss of life and limb, but the amoral bean counters of the current US Government sure doesn't have those views or standards.

Do you also want to talk about the thousands of disabled veterans who are waiting 3 years+ to get benefits? Who have gone bankrupt? Who have to live with their parents just to survive? Who have lost their homes, wives, etc... because of all the extra financial strain put on them by having to wait 3 years or more, and still waiting, to get their just benefits?

So in a ideal world where morality matters, maybe such use of funds would occur, however the current examples set in the real world suggests it would rarely ever happen.

I agree the game would be much more enjoyable to fantasize that such things are the reality, so I strongly recommend you do so, the real life examples are far too depressing.

This thread isn't about real world politics, military procurement or the alleged failings of the powers that be.

If you want to keep a mod from locking this up, drift a little closer to topic.

-Siege

Seems to me this thread has been referencing real life to justify views all along. IF too many facts from reality is too much for this thread, then so be it.

Case in point about using reality. As for my credentials I am medically retired 100% service connected disabled from Desert Storm/Desert Shield, and my wife is an Army Interogator and is one of the thousands of disabled fighting for over 3 years for her just benefits. Her health was destroyed early in 2005. The Army generously (severe sarcasm) rated her at 10% despite being unable to work, drive, and largely bed ridden. Thankfully not completely bed ridden as initially believed.


I guess the news reports early on in the Iraq war motivated the congress to actually get you guys equipped with effective body armor, according to what your saying about now. Are the humvees armored now?

Your examples suck, heres why:

Joe blow, body 3, armor 10 (it looks like, from your saying it soaks an extra 3.33 boxes). Joe blow (lets call an agi and rea of 3 also) has exceeded his armor max (6) by 4 points, thats -2 to his agi and reaction. So, now, He is rolling 1 + skill for shooting (is that what, 3 dice for a skill of 2, 5 if he has a smartlink) and his initiative is 1+intuition (likely 3 also) for a 4. So, 5 dice to attack, a 4 for initiative, and he gets 1 die to dodge with.

Your attack is bad too. If we assume a force 6 soldier insect. Hes got 12 dice to attack. Thats 4 hits on average, and with Joe blows 1 die to dodge plus his unarmed of 2, average of 1 hit. So, thats a damage of 11 hes taking. Then, he gets his armor + body for the fantastic soak of 4(thanks to ap), and sucking up 7 damage. Also note, he doesn't get to convert this to stun, because 11 > 9 (attack has -1 Ap also). So hes actually at a -2 penalty now, and close to death.


Taking this guy, body 4 you said, because of an elf or two, and lets go with reac 5 becuase there might be an elf or two (most people get no penalties, so they're pretty decent for that, and you can also assume maybe initiative boosts). He gets his 1.33 soak from body, plus 5 for a total of 6.33 soak. Note, he doesn't get an agi/rea decrease, thanks to that great mobility upgrade.

Buggy attacks him with 12 dice, 4 hits, and he defends with his 5 reaction + 4 unarmed. (They are trained special forces we've said). 9 dice is 3 hits negated, buggy hits him with 1 net hit. 9 damage coming at him. Take his 1.33 soak, and 5 from armor (you forgot about the AP these buggies have) for a 6 damage soak. Thats 3 damage that get through, as stun damage(cause 15 armor>9 damage). And now he's free to aim up that nice big gun hes got mounted on there and blast away. Gee, which is better, 7P or 3S for your soldiers to take. You could even hook up an autoinjector (assuming the guy has at least one cyberlimb) to the suits biomonitor, to throw stimpatches on him as he gets hit.


You tell me which one is gonna survive.

Mithril - my unit's HMMWVs weren't the new models with integrated armor, but we also didn't do a lot of missions outside the wire. We did have one or two with the retro-fit armor.

The body armor is a giant step forward from the flak jackets, but the full suit is not light. It lacks lower back support and the Army PT "program" still doesn't address the demands of heavier loads on the back and knees, in my humble opinion.

The problem is, even the best up-armored HMMWV can't defeat RPGs or IEDs.

-Siege

@Mithral MAge

RL: I really hear you that vets are getting dicked harder than anyone under the current regime, and I hope you both heard in a meaningful venue and get your dues.

SR: This thing is there are armored humvees. Regardless of how many more should be armored that aren't, armored humvees do exist. Also remember how retardedly over stretched the US is right now. Many armed forces have provided the then best armor and equipment to the front line troops, something the US just doesn't have the money to do.

I saw a couple of people, a few pages back, ask why you couldn't layer Milspec armor over form-sitting. The reason is that it is form-fitting. Heavy armor is built on top of what is basically FF. You need that kind of close-fitting "chassis" to hang the plates from.

As for the milspec armor being customized, are there rules for wearing ill-fitting armor? Our rule is that you can only wear armor if it matches your body, and is for your race.

And I just found an interesting RAW quote in Arsenal pg. 44. in the 'Tweaking Armor Encumbrance' section. "*Bullet* Allow characters to buy customized armor for their specific bodies (much like how military-grade armor is fitted to each person).

Looks like even RAW says that mil-spec is basically custom stuff for each soldier.

Did you not even look at the military armor section?

Arse, 50, "Each suit must be custom fit to an individual, tailored to her specific body contours and range of motion. This decreases the armor's encumbrance (see p. 148, SR4); the character wearing the armor is only encumbered if either armor rating exceeds the character's Body x 3. Adjusting military-grade armor to another person than the one it was made for is very difficult. Even with the technical knowledge and the right tools this is a time-consuming task that can only be performed to adjust the armor to a new person with roughly the same physical traits as the original user (the details are up to the gamemaster's discretion). Each suit also comes in any color or custom camouflage patterns desired."

Obviously, it is custom fit, it says so. It also says it can be re-customized to someone with roughly the same physical traits. With how many people are in an ARMY it shouldn't be too hard to find someone else whos about the same size.

Also, are you going to address my corrections to your example? And why mil-spec would be a good thing for those soldiers to have?

I think that this has been pretty well beat to death, myself.

You (and the others...thanks guys!) made a lot of good points, despite my being a contentious bastard to get more information and feedback for others to read so they can make an informed decision about if it fits their game, and I agree with most of you that mil-spec has it's place in limited numbers and the correct military or paramilitary units and missions (read: not most of them).

My main issue with mil-spec is that, to me, it's just another "bigger is better" fan geek add-on for the munchkins. The point of a RAW set of nigh invulnerable power armor (once you add the extra goodies which, well, if you can get your hands on it...why wouldn't you?) in a game of covert ops and street-level violence is questionable, IMO. It's like adding minigun rules, eleventy-seven types of mortar rounds and rocket launchers to me. They serve no real purpose in even a semi-realistic game, cater to the lowest common denominator, and generally just add stuff that the players will scrounge after and drive the GM nuts trying to keep up when and if they get their grubby little mitts on them.

I can say, in all honesty, that I have yet to be in a single SR or CP game situation in my almost 20 years of similar-genre gaming where having ridiculous bang-bang like mil-spec power armor, AFVs, RPGs, missile launchers, assault cannon, mortars, and miniguns has improved the actual gaming experience. I've seen plenty of times where it's ruined a game for other players, has cheapened a potentially great epic finale to a single roll of the dice to hit and a crappy soak roll, and generally tossed games on their ear to where it's nothing more than a tit-for-tat between gear grubbing players trying to kill stuff bigger and better and a GM trying to rein them in so his every mission isn't a frontal assault against the Big Red One to keep it challenging.

Not even one better game, however...

The only game where I have seen things like that work is in RIFTS. So I too would, and will, stay away from not only mil spec, but hardened armor as well. If my players want to get into stuff like that then we'll play Traveller. Or RIFTS.

I always hated how the Army expected you to carry 75+ pounds into combat (in reality it was usually 100+). I know the best armor won't defeat RPG's or IED's, but it might change how many die or how many body parts are lost. Hopefully lower those numbers across the board. I'm glad to hear some improvements in availability have been made, but sounds like they still aren't all the way there yet.

As for my wife's case, I expect to have to go all the way to the Judge to get what she deserves. Some paper pusher is refusing to listen to what every single doctor, except the one who examined her for going into the VA system, that one they choose to listen to, and only to one sentence, so they can continue to deny her full benefits. So hopefully the judge will actually be concerned about fairness, and due benefits. I just hope we get there before we lose everything like so many others have.

@Mithral MAge: I really hope you get some success with getting your compensation and that it happens as soon as possible. The wounded coming back from Iraq had very little attention given to their situation in the early stages. I don't know how it is in the US now. Good luck to you both, anyway.

On the original topic, I would answer Red Samurai. They're explicitly listed as having Military Grade armour in Arsenal (and in fact have their very own type). If that's not a clear indication that elite security forces have this level of armour, then I don't know what is.

psycho, I think the reason for having it in the rules, is one) so you can give your HTR teams this armor (like knasser just said, red samurai use it) and 2) in case you're running an alternate campaign, like mercenaries, or playing a top notch HTR team. I also agree that this kind of armor would not have much use for a shadowrunner, due to the very obvious nature of it. However... I'm sure there have been times where it can/did come in useful for a shadowrunner, not very often, but its enough to where it isn't a waste of space in the books.

I was reading the memoirs of the founder of the FBI's crack HRT by the name of Danny Coulson. When he did one of the unit's most famous missions, the takedown of the Covenant, Sword and Arm of the Lord (CSA) compound he was mentioning time and again how worried he and other leaders were worried half to death because the CSA had a single LAW rocket. That's right. These hillybilly racist com-an-does for White is Right had the elite of the United States largest and most elite law enforcement agency scared half to death about a single-shot, and far from spectacular, weapon.

"So what's that got to do with SR?", you're asking.

It has everything to do with SR, actually. The fact remains that LE is there for LE operations. Crowd control, high-risk felony arrests/raids, undercover drug busts, routine traffic and peacekeeping operations. Not crazy shit like GPMGs, RPGs, commando teams, and similar situations. LAPD is one of the biggest and most respected LE agencies in the US. This agency was held at a standstill when two guys with non-milspec body armor and automatic weapons walked out of a bank. SWAT was there for a bit of it but they didn't really help much.

"And?" I can hear in your impatient tone.

My point is that once you get to crazy shit like bug cities, and other assorted mass/mil-spec nastiness you don't send in the cops, SWAT, or a small corp ops team. You send in the FUCKING MARINES, fer chrisakes, because they have the same shit these badguys are packing around, the will to use it, and the correct skillsets to be certain it gets used to maximum effect.

HTR != LE. HTR teams are the red samurai, they are the super specialist elite teams the corps have, that pretty much ARE the corps marines. The HTR teams HAVE the skills, they aren't swat, or anything like that, they are the highest of the highest trained people the corps have.

After reading the pages upon pages of things, I had one mental image.

I could just see psychophipps standing over a RISK board and going up against everyone else on the forums board for domination.

As for the topic of this conversation being milspec armor...yeah, it's cool. Do I want it? Does the Pope shit in the woods? Of course I'd want it. Is it feasible and make sense? At times. Can I get something that works -just- as well or -close- to it? Sure. Would it make more sense in the environment I'm playing? Sure. But it all depends on what type of game you are playing and what setting you are in. However, someone can have all the toys but not the means to use them. Look at our RL mall ninjas and you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about.

To me, it should go like this:

Mindset
Tactics
Skill
Gear

Give me a determined psycho Marine War Vet with bush training that thinks he's still on The Trail and give him a sharpened spoon and that tacticool mall ninja with all of the High Speed Low Drag stuff is nothing but a brown smear. But even that Marine has nothing on a Drop Bear. Oh no.

Except that in the rulebooks, a corp special ops team (Ares Firewatch) are the PRIMARY people taking car of the bugs inside bug city. And corps are extraterritorial. If crazy shit happens on their territory, they don't call in the marines, they deal with it themselves (which may include milspec armor).

Um, 3-4 guys from one SWAT team made it there during the shooting, as they were only a few miles away. If you've seen the helo video they were the guys who took out the guy next to the car by shooting him in the legs from under the car (or was it a pickup truck?, I forget) They then backed off to wait for the bomb squad to clear him and he bleed out. The other idiot shot himself in the head.

Yes, that is a very succinct explanation of "didn't end up helping much". Thank you.

If you think that dropping 50% of the bad guys isn't "helping much" I have a nice bridge for you. It doesn't have "much" in the way of legal issues....

I've never used milspec armour in my games. No shadowrunner I've GM'ed or run with has ever had it. No opposition has ever had it. I still completely defend its right to exist, within the rules and setting, which has nothing to do with being a twink. There's a lot of stuff in Arsenal (for example) that has never come up in a game, but I prefer it to all be there when one day my shadowrunner team ends up in a situation where that sort of gear is appropriate for either them or the opposition.

Just to add to your argument, in Rigger 3 there are vehicle entries for an aircraft carrier and attack subs. I don't think anyone's arguing that runners should be running around with aircraft carriers, but they're still in the book.

Even in arsenal, theres stats for a 29 MILLION patrol submarine. Yeah, I'm sure the runners are gonna need to just stumble upon and use/fight one of those.

Well, a troll with milspec armour customized to accomodate his massive testicles might have a go at one in melee combat.

Melee combat? Not gonna work. Troll bow? Probably sink it in a few turns flat.

Which makes it ridiculously cheap if it's a combat model.