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psychophipps
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Sep 18 2008, 08:25 AM) *
Firewatch kill bugs. They're probably the best at it in the sixth world. They were the ones who planted the sub-tactical nuke in the Chicago hive on Cermak. They were the ones who were moving around America, on gawdam bug hunts. They wrote the goddamn book.


You could have just said, "Because the fan geek writers say so". wink.gif

Shiloh
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 18 2008, 06:16 PM) *
You could have just said, "Because the fan geek writers say so". wink.gif

Why should we accept your viewpoint without any backup? I, personally, am itching to see what you're ignoring when you recommend sending in the line infantry to hunt bug spirits.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Steampunk @ Sep 18 2008, 09:10 AM) *
Personally, I don't care how often you can repeat your opinion, but if you have to say something based on facts, I'm always interessted...


Heavy armor isn't quiet. You're rubbing against stuff and not feeling it. You're also a bit wider in the shoulders, hips and head (the most likely places you will rub against stuff) so you tend to bonk yourself around a bit as the clearance has shifted from your typical body space. Now try to wear this stuff and sneak past a series of hyper-alert Bug spirits that want to breaks their collective spiky bits off on your various orifices.

Wounding would suck. How's a medic, or battlefield surgeon supposed to get to your wounds with all of that hardware all over you? Sure, you can do the obvious "But automedics are TEH ROXOR!"...except when you get a power outage (sticky shock, anyone?). Or it runs out of the goodies. Or you're spurting a mile a minute and they can't get that connector open because it got manged by a bullet. Now add that anything that is guaranteed to penetrate this armor is also guaranteed to spray you into uneven chunks all over the insides of it and...yeah.

Weight doesn't magically disappear. Yeah, you got that mobility kit...until it takes a round. Or the battery resupply plane gets shot down. Or that Bug just mashed it with it's magic-enhanced claws. Then you're a slow target wearing a lead suit that protects you from everything except getting your arms torn out of their sockets by that Troll over there. Or your buddies are trying to drag your heavy ass to cover. Or they are trying to fit you into a typical military vehicle hatch (y'know, where the medic is?) once they get you to that cover.

It's not just buying the suit. You don't get something this complex with gyros, and computers, and advanced hydraulic systems and toss it into the closet when you're done. It needs maintenance, and lots of it. Trucks and bulldozers are big simple things so they run forever with just a few tweaks and lubrication changes. These things are miniature, complex things so...you get the idea. Now add the training for the suit use as it's bigger, heavier, moves "mostly naturally" but not quite which actually makes it more dangerous to the noobs in them on top of the sdoldier's regular high-speed/low-drag training. Now add continuation training. Now add upgrade training. Now add the helmet. Now add the wages of the technicians. Now the logistics of replacement parts due to attrition or simple malfunctions. Now add... Yeah.

It costs this much and a simple stun bolt still punks you down. 'Nuff said there.

Bodily functions. I don't know about you, but a stray round spraying the inside of your sealed armor suit with your own shit and piss sounds mighty non-optimal to me. Now add a minor wound and infection. Ick?

Weapons. Carrying a weapon that you can't use without the power suit isn't very good. If the suit fails for any reason then you're hosed. You now have two worthless pieces of equipment. A heavy ass suit and a heavy ass gun that will take off your arm at the shoulder if you fire it. Yay?

Big guys then. Yeah, you could just go the cheapo route and go with Orcs and Trolls. Have fun trying to find enough Orcs and Trolls with the right combination of smarts, tactical acumen, professionalism, and fighting spirit to fill your roster. They have a 66% duty roster with current US Special Forces without any race, height, weight, or other requirements other than being able to do the job effectively. Now take out 90%+ of the possibilities and you get...yeah. Next to nobody.

To cap it all off, the US military has dumped hundreds of millions of dollars into research, development, and training to come to the conclusion that, well, they had it right the first time. A combination of an armored vest, helmet, multi-pocket blouse, and cargo pants is the most effective, in hygienic, tactical, and monetary means to protect your soldiers and still allow them to function effectively on a battlefield. They items are simple to don and remove in case of emergency, They're easy to maintain. They can be made tough enough to last a while. They are cheap. They can be had from multiple suppliers. They just plain ol' work.

What more could a soldier ask for besides a two pound weapon that never runs out of ammo, hits everything automatically, takes out small cities with a single shot, never jams, and cleans itself?
raggedhalo
The advantage to milspec armour when fighting bugs is that, because you're entirely enclosed in inch-thick metal, you're invisible to the astral eye, no? I mean, sure, they can see that there's a physical object there, but I'd give a definite visibility penalty to an astral form bug trying to use Assensing to stop people sneaking by.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Sep 18 2008, 11:05 AM) *
Why should we accept your viewpoint without any backup? I, personally, am itching to see what you're ignoring when you recommend sending in the line infantry to hunt bug spirits.


You don't send in the infantry. You send in a series of drones with a tailored skin-penetrating nerve agent. Gas the motherfuckers. This way you can wait a few days for the gas to dissipate and then you roll the infantry in to clear the carcasses.

Yeah, they're nasty but once you get down to just spirits, it's a lot easier going, neh?
Tarantula
Because tailored skin penetrating nerve agents are easy to just whip up...

I'm sure they're working on one that works on bugs just great... but I don't think it exists, which is why they resort to using troops.
hobgoblin
whats the saying, no plan suvives a encounter with the enemy?...
Steampunk
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 18 2008, 08:06 PM) *
Heavy armor isn't quiet. You're rubbing against stuff and not feeling it. You're also a bit wider in the shoulders, hips and head (the most likely places you will rub against stuff) so you tend to bonk yourself around a bit as the clearance has shifted from your typical body space. Now try to wear this stuff and sneak past a series of hyper-alert Bug spirits that want to breaks their collective spiky bits off on your various orifices.


I agree, that (fluff-wise, as there's nothing that supports that in the rules) a heavy millspec isn't something Old Shatterhand would wear when sneaking around an indian camp, true. But that's not the purpose of such an armor. The armor is there to protect you while you kill dozens of bugs with heavy weapons fire smile.gif If you simply want to put some C4 into the cellar, you send a drone. What do you want to say? That there are missions that don't need a milspec? Yes, of course. But that doesn't mean that there are no missions for which you DO need them (or want them, at least).

QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 18 2008, 08:06 PM) *
Wounding would suck. How's a medic, or battlefield surgeon supposed to get to your wounds with all of that hardware all over you? Sure, you can do the obvious "But automedics are TEH ROXOR!"...except when you get a power outage (sticky shock, anyone?). Or it runs out of the goodies. Or you're spurting a mile a minute and they can't get that connector open because it got manged by a bullet. Now add that anything that is guaranteed to penetrate this armor is also guaranteed to spray you into uneven chunks all over the insides of it and...yeah.


Look, if you want to continue this, I have to insist that you stop making things up to prove your point. That doesn't work. There are no rules that say that it takes weeks to get rid of such an armor, there are no rules that stick&shock will somehow damage the armor itself, etc.etc.

Having said that, back to topic: The automedic will probably good enough to keep you working - or at least alive, until you can get out of trouble. And this means, it keeps you much longer alive than those poor bastards with "normal" armor, who died long before you. You think that it's a problem that one connector jams? There are probably backups - and a soldier WITHOUT this armor would have been perhaps KILLED by the same bullet.

QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 18 2008, 08:06 PM) *
Weight doesn't magically disappear. Yeah, you got that mobility kit...until it takes a round. Or the battery resupply plane gets shot down. Or that Bug just mashed it with it's magic-enhanced claws. Then you're a slow target wearing a lead suit that protects you from everything except getting your arms torn out of their sockets by that Troll over there. Or your buddies are trying to drag your heavy ass to cover. Or they are trying to fit you into a typical military vehicle hatch (y'know, where the medic is?) once they get you to that cover.


First of all: Your buddies are probably also guys in heavy suits with more strength than a troll. And again: You can try to imagine many scenarios, where the armor will be a problem, but you tend to forget one thing:

There are MUCH MORE scenarios where the damn armor will prevent you from billing killed. Simple.

Sorry, you don't seem to have to say anything really interessting. You're just trying hard to be negative about it, nothing more. Of course there will be situations where the team won't use their milspecs. But there will be other situations, where milspec is perfect for the job.
WeaverMount
Reguardless of his tone and specifics there is one thing you have to give psychophipps. The logistics on Mil-spec are a bitch. Simple, reliable, easy to maintain gear has been a deciding factor in may conflicts. If you are ok with those kinds of concerns evaporating because it's an RPG you are playing a very different game than psychophipps plays.
Tarantula
The logistics on tanks and stuff are a bitch too, yet they still use them.

Cyberzombies are way more logistics than a armor suit, yet they get used too.

I think with the level of expense common in the game, milspec suits really aren't that bad.
Steampunk
Of course the logistics are a bitch, I doubt anyone denies that. But we are not talking about a platoon of grunts who use a simple truck to get to their destinations, aren't we? smile.gif The soldiers we're talking about are probably elite soldiers, where 1-2 techs who maintain the armor don't really count that much anymore - as there will be probably a whole tech department smile.gif. These soldiers are for all the cases when you can't send in dozens of troops but need as much power as you can get. Of course there will be situation where, for example, a drone will handle the job much better (then a drone gets send in), but that doesn't mean that there are no missions for such troops. The fact that there are places you can reach with a short walk doesn't make it a good idea starting walking torwards orbit, so there still is a need for spacecrafts...
the_real_elwood
I always like it when people try to argue against the in-game rules using out-of-game logic. Within the system of the rules, heavy milspec armor makes a hell of a lot of sense for any soldier that's going to be engaged in heavy combat. And for a high value soldier (like Ares Firewatch teams), they're going to get whatever equipment they need to survive the mission, which many times will include heavy milspec armor.

And if Ares Firewatch teams don't get used to go on a bug hunt, then what exactly DO they do?
Chrysalis
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 18 2008, 09:22 PM) *
Because tailored skin penetrating nerve agents are easy to just whip up...

I'm sure they're working on one that works on bugs just great... but I don't think it exists, which is why they resort to using troops.


It's called DDT. Works fine on bugs and humans. VX also works fine on anything more complex than a cockroach.
WeaverMount
Please excuse my last post, I must have been high or something. No one is saying this would be a rank and file equipment, and it obviously has applications. I think the rules gloss over a lot that make super sex tech like this seem way cooler and feasible than it actually is, but still.
Tarantula
Or KE IV from arsenal. Its legal, fairly nasty, and 10¥. Much better than a generic insectacide (they take 1 box per minute from normal insectacides).

Why would they not use it? Probably because one soldier could destroy one drone. Thats not very cost effective.
Fuchs
Once your soldiers have cyberware implanted that's worse a lot more than 20K, giving them milspec armor is a logical consequence.

Not everyone will have such gear, but those who do will have the best armor money can buy.
ElFenrir
I played a character in SR3(didn't translate him yet) that had a set of heavy mil-spec armor. He kept it...locked away and safe. Usually, he just went with some FFBA/armored jacket. Why? Yeah, mil-spec is pretty hard to hide. But the few times that popped up where it could be used? It was wonderful.

Reminded me of a different game(not SR) me and my buddies were playing in. We had a really cool GM that would let us have about anything...with a few conditions; and they weren't even pain in the ass conditions. One of our friends was playing a helicopter pilot...who had the best chopper in the game available, basically. GM let him have it under his current resources, no problem. Guy tied it into his backstory and everything. But...it was also rather...not low key, it was VERY mil-spec, and it couldn't be flown for little missions to make them ''easy''. He got to fly the damn thing once in awhile. BUT, when it came out? It was so much sweeter, in a way. He got to have his fun and got to kick massive ass with his giant rotor-toy, but game balance was kept in check because SuperChopper didn't always come out.

But ahh...I don't think this thread is all about letting PCs have it(this is why I'd be fine with it, if they paid for it. It can't be used all the time.)

As for opposition...yeah, I would put super-elites in that stuff(well...ok. Regular, non-customized, non enhanced light body armor, just ''High Elites''. Super-custom-enhanced mil-spec? That's shit the ''Boss Character'' wears. wink.gif)
kigmatzomat
You know who gets MilSpec? Marines. Why them? Because marines are a) the smallest branch of the military, b) get the "light armor" jobs requiring more firepower than special forces but less than Army's armor, c) very much a forward deployed force without being exlusively LRRP, and most importantly, responsible for all embassies.

And you can bet every ranking VIP has milspec. It might not be armed but its otherwise loaded. The Secret Service may protect the President but the Marines would be the ones on the perimeter.
Ryu
There will be a bit of differentiation. Light and medium military armor with little to no upgrades is just an improved version of the "civilian" full battle armor. Protection is not only better, but lighter. Saving weight for mission load.

The high-tech versions are for corporate heavy strike teams, a show-off toy army needs all the chrome it can get. RL human ressources would also design "shared cost programs" for the rank&file, where the corporate soldier can get better on-duty gear at a rebate.
Sir_Psycho
QUOTE (Psychopipps)
You could have just said, "Because the fan geek writers say so".

Those damn fan geek writers. Damn trolls, elves, dwarves, orks, dragons, mythical animals, magic, nanotech, cyberware, essence, SIMsense, Otaku and technomancers. Fuck the Ghost Dance and the balkanization of the US, Fuck the Jihad, Fuck the Nightwraith Incident, Fuck the tirs, fuck the Shiawase decision, fuck Japan and it's Imperialistic regime. Why the hell do we play this stupid game anyway? I don't want to play no stinkin' game written by geeks with stupid fanboy ideas. How lame. And heavy armour that is comfortable and power-assisted? That takes the cake. I'm taking this shit to the streets.

QUOTE (Psychopipps)
Heavy armor isn't quiet.

Well, apart from there being no stealth penalties for milspec armour, who cares? If you want I can just make up some fluff reasons why this could be. This isn't storm-trooper armour. It's rare and expensive technology, and you'd think they'd give it rubber soles or some other pads to stop it clacking. The same thing with the joints. Also, a marine in the military kit of armour jacket and helmet you describe is still wearing a bunch of kit that might brush up against something. Whoops, they both stepped on a twig, but the guy in the armour jacket is blown into chunks and the guy in the milspec armour lives to return fire.

And if you want quiet for your op, give them something with ruthenium on it. But if they're going some-where which will most likely involve them getting shot at, then they're going to want the heavy armour.

QUOTE
Wounding would suck. How's a medic, or battlefield surgeon supposed to get to your wounds with all of that hardware all over you? Sure, you can do the obvious "But automedics are TEH ROXOR!"...except when you get a power outage (sticky shock, anyone?). Or it runs out of the goodies. Or you're spurting a mile a minute and they can't get that connector open because it got manged by a bullet. Now add that anything that is guaranteed to penetrate this armor is also guaranteed to spray you into uneven chunks all over the insides of it and...yeah.

I'll adress your final point first, because it is the silliest. If something is powerful enough to punch through the armour and turn the occupant into chunks, how well did your guy fare?. For a lot of puncture wounds, the heavy armour would act like a compression bandage and your guts would be less likely to spill out. As for medical treatment, you open up a panel and you get in there. Also, let's not forget that not only are you going to be taking less damage, but because this is power armour, which modifies your physical attribute ratings, you're more likely to be able to get the hell up and make a run for the van, where-as the standard soldier is rolling around screaming on the ground because napalm is burning his face off, he can't see and he's losing a lot of blood from the multiple gut wounds.

QUOTE
Weight doesn't magically disappear. Yeah, you got that mobility kit...until it takes a round. Or the battery resupply plane gets shot down. Or that Bug just mashed it with it's magic-enhanced claws. Then you're a slow target wearing a lead suit that protects you from everything except getting your arms torn out of their sockets by that Troll over there. Or your buddies are trying to drag your heavy ass to cover. Or they are trying to fit you into a typical military vehicle hatch (y'know, where the medic is?) once they get you to that cover.

And if there's trolls on the battlefield, you'd think that the "typical military vehicle hatch" can fit a guy with an inch or three of armour. Steampunk already rebuted most of this argument, anyway.
QUOTE
It's not just buying the suit. You don't get something this complex with gyros, and computers, and advanced hydraulic systems and toss it into the closet when you're done. It needs maintenance, and lots of it. Trucks and bulldozers are big simple things so they run forever with just a few tweaks and lubrication changes. These things are miniature, complex things so...you get the idea. Now add the training for the suit use as it's bigger, heavier, moves "mostly naturally" but not quite which actually makes it more dangerous to the noobs in them on top of the sdoldier's regular high-speed/low-drag training. Now add continuation training. Now add upgrade training. Now add the helmet. Now add the wages of the technicians. Now the logistics of replacement parts due to attrition or simple malfunctions. Now add... Yeah.

QUOTE
It costs this much and a simple stun bolt still punks you down. 'Nuff said there.

Unless you have some-one providing counterspelling. Don't forget that mr. counter-spelling has an armour rating of 16/18 and is more likely to save your arse from such stunbolts?
QUOTE
Bodily functions. I don't know about you, but a stray round spraying the inside of your sealed armor suit with your own shit and piss sounds mighty non-optimal to me. Now add a minor wound and infection. Ick?

Easiest solution: Open the flap/crotch panels and go for your life. If that is for some not an option, the use a catheter and a purge valve. It must have been hard for you when you were introduced to pants. "Damn this new technology! I have to remove it to take a dump!? RIDICULOUS!"

QUOTE
Weapons. Carrying a weapon that you can't use without the power suit isn't very good. If the suit fails for any reason then you're hosed. You now have two worthless pieces of equipment. A heavy ass suit and a heavy ass gun that will take off your arm at the shoulder if you fire it. Yay?
Who suggested these guys aren't carrying Colt M23s with APDS?

QUOTE
To cap it all off, the US military has dumped hundreds of millions of dollars into research, development, and training to come to the conclusion that, well, they had it right the first time. A combination of an armored vest, helmet, multi-pocket blouse, and cargo pants is the most effective, in hygienic, tactical, and monetary means to protect your soldiers and still allow them to function effectively on a battlefield. They items are simple to don and remove in case of emergency, They're easy to maintain. They can be made tough enough to last a while. They are cheap. They can be had from multiple suppliers. They just plain ol' work.

And those guys still exist. Grunts. Mooks. Ground pounders. They're still cost effective for large operations.

But for high priority and high risk objectives? They will and do choose milspec armour. And it's cost-effective for those operations. To get the same benefits in cyber, you'd need bone lacing, muscle replacement, cyber-eyes, cyber-ears, cyber-arm gyromounts, etc. but you put your well-trained man in this suit and suddenly he's about 3 times less likely to be killed than the grunt in the armour jacket, and his combat effectiveness goes up, too.
QUOTE
What more could a soldier ask for besides a two pound weapon that never runs out of ammo, hits everything automatically, takes out small cities with a single shot, never jams, and cleans itself?

Fan geek.

psychophipps
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Sep 18 2008, 11:58 AM) *
It's called DDT. Works fine on bugs and humans. VX also works fine on anything more complex than a cockroach.


It also kills cockroaches just dandy.

psychophipps
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Sep 18 2008, 11:56 AM) *
And if Ares Firewatch teams don't get used to go on a bug hunt, then what exactly DO they do?


They run around doing badass spec ops stuff?
psychophipps
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 18 2008, 12:12 PM) *
Or KE IV from arsenal. Its legal, fairly nasty, and 10¥. Much better than a generic insectacide (they take 1 box per minute from normal insecticides).

Why would they not use it? Probably because one soldier could destroy one drone. That's not very cost effective.


They would use a much more potent version of it. Nerve agents are insanely lethal. The old "one drop will kill everything in this room" quote in the movie 'The Rock' was actually giving a lot bigger dose than it had to with VX. Add that the drones being used by the troops could be pretty damn small and be releasing it via aerosol in controlled burst and high concentrations in enclosed areas and you have a very fine mist (as in unnoticeable) of gas without smell, taste, or color that kills the things dead, deader, DEADEST.
I don't care how fast it works because death is the least of their worries. Symptoms starts with uncontrolled drooling and eye tearing as the peripheral autonomic nerves are destroyed, then tremors in the limbs, confusion, and disorientation leading to convulsions and death. Takes a few minutes? I'm on the ground above them and three miles back. It can take all damn week for all I care. I'm not risking myself, my men, and my equipment on tracking otherworldly heebie-jeebies with magic armor-rending claws and a bad attitude through their funhouse o' death when I can do it cheaper, easier, and faster with drones and gas.

You want cost? Kill a bunch of your insanely expensive troops. Now add 30K in per-man armor before weapons. Now add a backpack nuke.

I'm talking a few drones, some signal repeaters, and the use of a stockpile, or manufacturing some more, of gas that's been sitting around for over 100 years by SR.
psychophipps
QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Sep 18 2008, 01:09 PM) *
You know who gets MilSpec? Marines. Why them? Because marines are a) the smallest branch of the military, b) get the "light armor" jobs requiring more firepower than special forces but less than Army's armor, c) very much a forward deployed force without being exlusively LRRP, and most importantly, responsible for all embassies.

And you can bet every ranking VIP has milspec. It might not be armed but its otherwise loaded. The Secret Service may protect the President but the Marines would be the ones on the perimeter.


Umm...no they wouldn't. And I gave a great list above with the reasons why.

The US Marines are about the best there is at surgical use of force. They take a mix of light infantry, a small contingent of artillery, light air support, and a light armored unit and thorough the use of speed, surprise, and violence of action take the objective. They improvise, adapt, and overcome through effective leadership, a higher training regimen, and warrior spirit. In fact, a Marine force will typically (as in, not an example currently existing showing otherwise) be rolling much lighter than an equivalent US Army unit of the same type to maintain their greater mobility.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 18 2008, 08:38 PM) *
Umm...no they wouldn't. And I gave a great list above with the reasons why.

Your "great list" has been thoroughly been proven retarded quite well by Sir Psycho. I could easily do just as well or better myself, as I suspect the vast majority of people will be able to. Most of your supposed arguements are slightly altered support for why Milspec armor should be used.
QUOTE
The US Marines are about the best there is at surgical use of force. They take a mix of light infantry, a small contingent of artillery, light air support, and a light armored unit and thorough the use of speed, surprise, and violence of action take the objective. They improvise, adapt, and overcome through effective leadership, a higher training regimen, and warrior spirit. In fact, a Marine force will typically (as in, not an example currently existing showing otherwise) be rolling much lighter than an equivalent US Army unit of the same type to maintain their greater mobility.

As military armor can actually increase a units mobility, as well as their durability & firepower, why the fuck would they not use it?!
psychophipps
And the #1 reason for Arsenal mil-spec armor not to be used in your game is in SR4 BB pg. 316, "Full Body Armor: Worn by military and security personnel around the world..." 12/10 with a helmet, costs a lot less, can be worn by Body 4 soldiers with some fitting.

Hmm... indifferent.gif

Looking like they went and fixed something that wasn't broken to me.
Ol' Scratch
I do believe the original question was more along the lines of "why would anyone use milspec armor when non-milspec armor is nearly as good if not better at protecting you?" In other words, why are the Ballistic/Impact stats subpar compared to what you can otherwise do. Hooray for a total lack of reading comprehension and insight!
Muspellsheimr
Does it say the military uses this armor & only this armor, ever? No.

Full Body is used, most likely, by heavy infantry - reason: it is cheap, & can be used by multiple people without extensive re-customizing.

Armored Vests are probably used by light infantry - reason: it is cheap, & they are expendable.

Military Armor is used by Special Forces - reason: it is by far the most effective armor available, & your Spec-Ops units are not expendable in most situations - they are highly trained, effective, & represent an investment of several hundred thousand (minimum) in training alone, not taking into account their augmentations. Another 30 to 40 thousand is nothing compared to what these guys already cost, and if that keeps them alive for one more mission, it has already paid for itself.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 18 2008, 06:45 PM) *
As military armor can actually increase a units mobility, as well as their durability & firepower, why the fuck would they not use it?!


1. It costs too much.

2. Maintenance.

3. Training costs.

4. Logistical support.

5. Ease of battlefield medical care issues. Yeah, he covered this one in a "just lift a hatch, bro!" but if it's "just a hatch" it's also a structural weak point so, umm....yeah. As a trained industrial first aider and having a friend telling me about his actual combat experiences it's very non-optimal to have to peel too much heavy stuff off as you're looking for a wound.

6. A Mark 1 Mod 0 soldier is plenty mobile and capable of packing some fairly serious firepower already.

7. Research, and history, has shown time and again that information wins battles, not the ability to slug it out toe-to-toe with the enemy.

8. It costs way too much.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 18 2008, 08:58 PM) *
1. It costs too much.

Compared to who is wearing it, it's fucking cheap.
QUOTE
2. Maintenance.

Taken care of off the battle field. Anything tech requires maintenance. This does not stop tech from being used.
QUOTE
3. Training costs.

Easily combined with other training.
QUOTE
4. Logistical support.

Just like any other piece of hardware, which are still commonly used in & out of combat.
QUOTE
5. Ease of battlefield medical care issues. Yeah, he covered this one in a "just lift a hatch, bro!" but if it's "just a hatch" it's also a structural weak point so, umm....yeah. As a trained industrial first aider and having a friend telling me about his actual combat experiences it's very non-optimal to have to peel too much heavy stuff off as you're looking for a wound.

You flip a switch & a panel peels away. The same as when you are fucking removing or putting on the armor. There is no structural weak point beyond what the armor already has.
QUOTE
6. A Mark 1 Mod 0 soldier is plenty mobile and capable of packing some fairly serious firepower already.

So? You have a soldier that can kill, but can be killed. I have a soldier that is more mobile & fucking hard to kill with anything less than anti-vehicle weaponry.
QUOTE
7. Research, and history, has shown time and again that information wins battles, not the ability to slug it out toe-to-toe with the enemy.

Information is a determining factor, but without the combat support, information means shit in war. What fucking good does knowing their weakness do if you have no effective means of hitting that weakness?
QUOTE
8. It costs way too much.

Its fucking cheap
600,000 for a soldier that will die when shot once, or 650,000 for a soldier that will die when shot two dozen times? Option 2 is clearly superior, not to mention all the other benefits the armor grants.


I am now done arguing with you. Your points are bullshit. If you are not convinced, you never will be.
Yoan
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 18 2008, 01:06 PM) *
To cap it all off, the US military has dumped hundreds of millions of dollars into research, development, and training to come to the conclusion that, well, they had it right the first time. A combination of an armored vest, helmet, multi-pocket blouse, and cargo pants is the most effective, in hygienic, tactical, and monetary means to protect your soldiers and still allow them to function effectively on a battlefield. They items are simple to don and remove in case of emergency, They're easy to maintain. They can be made tough enough to last a while. They are cheap. They can be had from multiple suppliers. They just plain ol' work.


Shhhhhhh, you're upsetting the tech geeks. Besides, this is a GAME! Common sense & tactical thinking doesn't belong here. Heathen.

PS: If I pay the transport/plane ticket, can you come play in my game? Please?
the_real_elwood
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 18 2008, 09:58 PM) *
1. It costs too much.

2. Maintenance.

3. Training costs.

4. Logistical support.

5. Ease of battlefield medical care issues. Yeah, he covered this one in a "just lift a hatch, bro!" but if it's "just a hatch" it's also a structural weak point so, umm....yeah. As a trained industrial first aider and having a friend telling me about his actual combat experiences it's very non-optimal to have to peel too much heavy stuff off as you're looking for a wound.

6. A Mark 1 Mod 0 soldier is plenty mobile and capable of packing some fairly serious firepower already.

7. Research, and history, has shown time and again that information wins battles, not the ability to slug it out toe-to-toe with the enemy.

8. It costs way too much.


Maybe they use milspec armor because, if information wins battles, then the extensive communications/sensors/data display suite in the milspec helmet and armor must be a significant boon to the trooper using it. You could probably integrate the Battletac system and a tactical computer in it too, were you so inclined.

And we've already determined that the cost of armor is insignificant compared to the costs of hiring and training a trooper to the level that they would be using heavy milspec armor.
kigmatzomat
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 18 2008, 09:38 PM) *
Umm...no they wouldn't. And I gave a great list above with the reasons why.

The US Marines are about the best there is at surgical use of force. They take a mix of light infantry, a small contingent of artillery, light air support, and a light armored unit and thorough the use of speed, surprise, and violence of action take the objective. They improvise, adapt, and overcome through effective leadership, a higher training regimen, and warrior spirit. In fact, a Marine force will typically (as in, not an example currently existing showing otherwise) be rolling much lighter than an equivalent US Army unit of the same type to maintain their greater mobility.


You know, you're reasons why not are my reasons why.

And you skipped the part about the embassies and the VIPs.

Power armor, which is what milspec is, isn't hardened armor, so it can't really stand around on the battle field when full on tanks show up. Due to the logistics, it can't be used on long range recon missions without infrastructure support. It isn't so much stronger that it can carry real anti-armor weapons.

However when you need speed, surprise and violence of action in a surgical strike that's transported to the target via Blackhawks or APCs, power armor is freaking ideal.. Your troops are faster, stronger, carrying bigger guns and/or more ammo, and can take more abuse. They are the ultimate in person-to-person "shock and awe."

Plus, the armor doesn't require any significant training because it's still normal hand-eye coordination. Just an acclimitization period. Hence the lack of "milspec armor athletics."

Will all Marines have power armor? Nope. But some of the guys at the embassies will as will some of the surgical strike teams that focus on overwhelming tactical combat.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Yoan @ Sep 18 2008, 07:17 PM) *
Shhhhhhh, you're upsetting the tech geeks. Besides, this is a GAME! Common sense & tactical thinking doesn't belong here. Heathen.

PS: If I pay the transport/plane ticket, can you come play in my game? Please?


If I wasn't married, have a great job, about to have my first kid, etc. I would be happy to bounce on over for a few sessions. Always like meeting my fellow gamers. I'd even volunteer as GM! biggrin.gif

As for the first bit, I just like giving people a dose of the ol' (well, IMO) Reality Stick every now and again. It sure tends to tick some people off but I do it for the other people who are on the fence or looking for (fairly) reasonable reasons to restrict certain unbalancing equipment. I'm sorry, but if 12/10 armor doesn't cover your bets, there's always JDAMs.
Ol' Scratch
Personally, I think it's adorable that you tried to use the gear the military issues today as your basis for what they'll issue in the future. Especially since, you know, we have nothing like the mass-produced milspec armor presented in Shadowrun right now. Or most any of the other readily available technology presented in the setting.

But that's just me.
Muspellsheimr
Milspec Armor cannot be mass produced, as it is by default tailored to the recipient. Otherwise, yea.
Ol' Scratch
I doubt the entire suit is. Customized != custom built from scratch.
Fuchs
With some of that reasoning, we'd not use APCs because, hey, they cost too much, don't stand up to a tank round, walking works well and uses less logistics, and if the APC breaks down you can't use the M2 on it anymore or so...
And we'd not use IFS because they are a pain to maintain, cost too much, and when they break down we can't use the cannon anymore. And we'd not use tanks because they cost too much...

20K is chump change. You pay that much in salary alone for the training any soldier needs before deployment, not to mention the actual training costs. Then add the costs for medical treatment for wounds the MilSpec armor would have prevented. Not to mention that your soldiers fight better if they are better protected since they'll have better morale.
Sir_Psycho
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 18 2008, 09:57 PM) *
Does it say the military uses this armor & only this armor, ever? No.

Full Body is used, most likely, by heavy infantry - reason: it is cheap, & can be used by multiple people without extensive re-customizing.

Armored Vests are probably used by light infantry - reason: it is cheap, & they are expendable.

Military Armor is used by Special Forces - reason: it is by far the most effective armor available, & your Spec-Ops units are not expendable in most situations - they are highly trained, effective, & represent an investment of several hundred thousand (minimum) in training alone, not taking into account their augmentations. Another 30 to 40 thousand is nothing compared to what these guys already cost, and if that keeps them alive for one more mission, it has already paid for itself.

For the record, I agree completely with this.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 19 2008, 07:40 AM) *
Milspec Armor cannot be mass produced, as it is by default tailored to the recipient.

Yeah, given the production technology available in SR, it most likely just a couple of hundred suits per hour.
Customtailoring in the age of nanoforges and personal radar sensors isn't really an issue.
Shiloh
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 18 2008, 07:06 PM) *
To cap it all off, the US military has dumped hundreds of millions of dollars into research, development, and training to come to the conclusion that given the state of materials tech at this time, for battlefield infantry, well, they had it right the first time.

There. Fixed.



ElFenrir
I honestly don't see what's so unbalancing about this stuff. If a team insists on using it, you can bet the opposition is going to bring out stuff to deal with it. Which might mean a light machinegun. Since the armor isn't hardened, it will protect someone about as well that has an Armor Jacket(8/6), FFBA3(6/3), a helmet(1/2 was it). Total: 15/11 that comes out. It's also more obvious. Sure, it gives other nice benefits(can get lots of fire and chem protection, etc), the increased attributes are nice...but IMO, it's no more unbalanced than some of the soft armor in there.

Is it great stuff? Certainly it is. Is it incredibly useful in certain situations, does it have intimidation factor, and is it overall great for those extremely high threat situations? Yes. Again, I had a character who had a set that he had from his old job, and there were times he got to wear it. Rather than just ban the armor as unbalanced(then again, everyone's table is different-I suppose if you have a contingency of problem players or always play gang-level it might be a problem), I'd just make sure the runners knew the consequences of walking into the Stuffer Shack with the stuff on. wink.gif
Siege
Mind you, the Army is still pursuing the "future warrior" concept with what borders on a mania.

Today's common sense is tomorrow's wtf?

-Siege

Edit 1: And the new class blues look like a mall guard uniform.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Siege @ Sep 19 2008, 05:54 AM) *
Today's common sense is tomorrow's wtf?

-Siege

Edit 1: And the new class blues look like a mall guard uniform.


1) Well, Land Warrior finally got a "go" for a brigade and the tweaks (short) and discards (long) lists are being gone over as I type this. It was gonna get axed completely but someone finally said, "Hey, we've blown tons of dough on this, let's give it a whirl..." and it worked out Ok overall. We'll be seeing a pretty good jump in individual infantry technology here in the next five years or so from this experiment.

2) I agree completely.
Fuchs
In WW2, we haven't had bodyarmor, even though there were bulletproof vests in civilian use. These days, such vests are standard issue (or should be).
psychophipps
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 19 2008, 03:39 AM) *
Yeah, given the production technology available in SR, it most likely just a couple of hundred suits per hour.
Custom tailoring in the age of nanoforges and personal radar sensors isn't really an issue.


Except that each suit is usable (if you like being comfortable, at least) by only one person? They buy it and you just dropped 30K nuyen.gif on a great, high-tech shelf warmer there.

As for the other bit, it's great if you have the entire assembly system right there in your base for sure.

But for everyone not in the land of happy sunshine meadows filled with frolicking wildlife that wouldn't hurt a bug and beautiful elves prancing in the background singing your favorite tune in perfect harmony, you have to first measure all of your soldiers. Then you double-check because a 30K cockup sucks. Then you put in the acquisitions form. Then it has to be approved. Then it has to be ordered. Then it has to be made. Then it has to be shipped to a central warehouse where it is checked. Then it has to forwarded to your location where it is checked again. Then you have to issue the gear. Then it has to be used in training. Then...Then...Then...

Oh yeah, and not a single step of this is free.

Bulk acquisitions is a complete whore!
Fuchs
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Sep 19 2008, 04:47 PM) *
Except that each suit is usable (if you like being comfortable, at least) by only one person? They buy it and you just dropped 30K nuyen.gif on a great, high-tech shelf warmer there.

As for the other bit, it's great if you have the entire assembly system right there in your base for sure.

But for everyone not in the land of happy sunshine meadows filled with frolicking wildlife that wouldn't hurt a bug and beautiful elves prancing in the background singing your favorite tune in perfect harmony, you have to first measure all of your soldiers. Then you double-check because a 30K cockup sucks. Then you put in the acquisitions form. Then it has to be approved. Then it has to be ordered. Then it has to be made. Then it has to be shipped to a central warehouse where it is checked. Then it has to forwarded to your location where it is checked again. Then you have to issue the gear. Then it has to be used in training. Then...Then...Then...

Oh yeah, and not a single step of this is free.

Bulk acquisitions is a complete whore!


You keep ignoring that a soldier is "worth" a whole lot more than 20K, or 30K. If a soldier dies you're out all the training costs, all the compensation for the relatives, reduced morale/possible psychological treatment costs for his fellow soldiers, the cyberware implanted, possibly the gear lost with the soldier too. And you need to get a replacement to fill his position, meaning more administrative work. That adds up to whole lot more than a measily 20K.
Ol' Scratch
Where does it say a suit of milspec can't be customized for someone else? You do realize that "customized" can mean as little as "slightly adjusting" right? As an example, the belt I'm wearing right now has a bunch of holes in it, allowing you to customize it to whoever's wearing it. Amazing.

And we all know that the military is -all- about buying gear that only one person can ever use for all eternity. In no way whatsoever would they require it to be any other way. Nope.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Sep 18 2008, 11:51 PM) *
With some of that reasoning, we'd not use APCs because, hey, they cost too much, don't stand up to a tank round, walking works well and uses less logistics, and if the APC breaks down you can't use the M2 on it anymore or so...
And we'd not use IFS because they are a pain to maintain, cost too much, and when they break down we can't use the cannon anymore. And we'd not use tanks because they cost too much...

20K is chump change. You pay that much in salary alone for the training any soldier needs before deployment, not to mention the actual training costs. Then add the costs for medical treatment for wounds the MilSpec armor would have prevented. Not to mention that your soldiers fight better if they are better protected since they'll have better morale.


So where is all of this magical money coming from? You think that some bean counter isn't watching all of this cash getting dumped on SOTA gearz that might last all of 30 seconds on a battlefield? It's nice to say "It's only 30K!" until you get the whole multiple units thing down. Then those 100s of guys starts to get into the millions and millions. Then you get into the cost-benefit analysis as discussed in the Runner's Companion as The Bottom Line is every corps god and well...

The one advantage that vehicles have over mil-spec armor is that a mobility kill on a vehicle still probably leaves you something to dive behind. It's cover for the crew if they survived, it might have weapons working still, and it's still has a use. You get mobility kill on mil-spec armor and you have a dead soldier wearing a 30K+ lump of melted SOTA. A vehicle can be drug back into base and repaired to full function barring total destruction. That customized suit is a pile of random parts that may or may not be removable and then you have to order a whole new one for the next guy to wear.

Add that the APC hauls multiple troops (probably a squad or so), provides fire support if it's armed, can move a lot faster (with more troops) than even powered mil-spec, can be used for cover during troop deployment, can haul extra gear inside of it, usually has smoke launchers for maneuvering, and finally can haul the mil-spec equiped soldiers around in relative comfort and increased protection.

It's actually very easy to see why an APC is much more useful to a military or para-military force than a customized, single-user item like mil-spec armor as it's being described in this thread.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Sep 19 2008, 07:51 AM) *
You keep ignoring that a soldier is "worth" a whole lot more than 20K, or 30K. If a soldier dies you're out all the training costs, all the compensation for the relatives, reduced morale/possible psychological treatment costs for his fellow soldiers, the cyberware implanted, possibly the gear lost with the soldier too. And you need to get a replacement to fill his position, meaning more administrative work. That adds up to whole lot more than a measily 20K.


LOL

Tell that to Congress! '

You're funny! rotfl.gif
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