Also I remember you talking about how the Horseman cant get 20 armor since its not a drone even with rigger adaption citing the example of drone descriptions having a body from 1-4, in that same books (Arsenal) where you quoted from there is a drone with a body of 6...in the drone listings. Think about that

HA! I forgot about the Special Armor Modification in addition to the Faraday Cage for another 6 dice to resist that Electricity zzap. Meaning its 50-62 possible dice. As a nice bonus it also protects the passenger too!

EDIT: I am not saying the above character has this, but while I am at it I might as well go for broke, since magic seems to be the most applicable threat to the Mech or Mage then you can replace Physical Barrier with Mana Barrier to garner +6 dice (on average with a max of 12) to resist Magic in any form. Although you DO lose 6 Armor for the Mech (not included in the previous posts numbers) and 6 armor for the character (he wont care with 120+ armor) then it does seem a logical replacement.

EDIT 2: I don't remember what it does but I would've sworn there was a spell called "Mana Static" might be useful in fending off enemy mages.

EDIT 3: Remember if you don't drop the character on the first shot then you will be dropped on his. In a fight where characters are about equal initiative is very important, although I don't think the above character could really grab more than 10ish dice. Thankfully 9/10 times it won't matter since he can resist any damage heading his way. Although that 10th time comes down to who rolls better.

I really have to doubt this. I'm running two games right now, one on Rpol.net and one in RL. In both those games, 10+ dice is typical for their primary dice pools, 15+ is common for combat and social. In addition, I've played in and ran many Shadowrun Missions games; once again, 10+ dice pools is par for the course.

At any event, the 8 Edge character I'd need to "beat" your combination is already in use, long before this thread came into being. One or two Longshot tests, and your cocooned mage is history.

This is true, although that is assuming you can see him to "Call a shot"

EDIT: This again brings to brings to mind Camo Spell, Shadow, and Camo items. Assuming it works the way I think it does means I could be standing by myself in a field with a ball of night roating around me, and you would never be able to spot me.

Or I suppose a Imp Invis spell would work just as good.

Remember its extremely important that
A) You surprise him so he can't dodge and drop him in one shot (Possibly going agian if you win intative) or risk return fire that could drop your character.

If I get to shoot you first not all of the called shots in the world could save you.

Edit 2: DOH Dead mans Trigger, well then assuming I survive then I suppose I still come out on top.

You don't need to see him to call a shot. That's what the Blind Fire penalty represents. Also, you need to use intuition instead of Quickness to figure out where he's at. None of this is a major problem, though; since you're going to be at -100 or so to call the shot, more penalties aren't going to be a big deal.

If the character is "Hiding" then you need to make a perception test or you cannot fire on him.

Blind Fire also assumes you can either A) Kinda Maybe make him out, or B) Pinpoint his location (I.E> what square he is in) If you don't meet these requirements then you cannot delcare a Blind Fire action.

Okay, I'm late to the discussion and wondering about/noticed some things.

1. the the armor is limited by availability at character generation, if you don't get the Restricted Gear quaility.

2. I was wondering about the car mods:

Modifications to the car (slot cost):
Walker Mode (2)
2 Full Arms (4, 2 each)
Armor (1) - Rating 12 (limit at chargen)
Personal Armor (2) - Rating 6 (limit at chargen)
Rigger Adaptation (1)
Standard Cocoon (1)

Is this about how you put it together?

That takes 11 slots out of 14. If you want weapon hardpoints, that's extra, as is life support if you want the vehicle to have a chemical seal (costs 3 slots, meaning no hardpoints). That wouldn't stop you from using the full arms to use weapons though.

I also don't see anything stating the Cocoon is a sealed system, so without a chemical seal somewhere, you're still vulnerable to gas attacks. I'm assuming you get that from the body armor modifications.

3. That leaves you with the cars basic Rating 1 Sensors, so your rigger has Perception + 1 to roll on tests. Assuming you'll have to see someone before you can target them, that could be rather difficult. That would require modifications as well, and I haven't looked into how that would affect slot requirements.

4. If you use a faraday cage (limited to Rating 3 at generation), you can't see anything from inside the cocoon unless they breach the cage to connect to sensors, making it innefective. You could retract them inside the cage for temorary protection though. The cage also become useless if the car takes a certain amount of damage.

5. Spells:
Reinforce - only works if the mage can cast at a force equal to the surface area of the car in square meters. If you consider the car a flat box, 2m by 3m by 1.5m, that requires a Force 27 spell. That's one heck of a mage contact willing to cast and sustain the spell.

Fix - limited to (Force X hits) kilograms or less in mass. Good luck with that. You have to touch it too, so you're not in a cocoon.

Armor - works, add (hits) in Ballistic and Impact armor. It does say "worn" but I'm not going to argue that point.

Counterspelling - If it's not you, you have to have LOS on it (no cocoon).

6. If you're jumped into the drone, you dodge spells (indirect combat ones at least) with Reaction + Handling, so if you have a Reaction of zero, it's just handling. As far as I can tell, that's only 3 dice (2 for the car, +1 for the walker mode). Add any counterspelling on top of that, and you can still only expect 4-6 hits that have to be overcome.

7. Say a mage cast a lighting bolt at the car/drone and barely manages to hit with at force 6 casting, that's 7DV. Without any extra protection, the car/drone resists with Body + 1/2 Impact Armor (16 dice at generation, 20 max, no magic) (like the drone from the example on SR4 p196). With auto-hits for resist that's 2-3DV getting through per casting. If your hot simmed for an extra pass, you have to resist half that damage (SR4 p. 239). If the mage overcasts at force 12, that's 13DV to resist. You would need about 40 dice for the car/drone to avoid damage completely. A full faraday cage adds 6 dice to resistance tests (I think). The best I see right now is 26 dice without magical protection to resist.


If this holds up, it seems a no brainer to attack the car, then peal them out of the cocoon. If you can hide from the cars sensors with physical spells, all the better.

1) Not to my knowledge last I recall the Avil rating (even for 20 armor) should be 12 or less, something like a 6 I think. Even the personal armor I think was a 10. I think it had a scaling modifier of 1 per point, so Rating 10 Personal armor would be 10 Aval.

2) That the bare bones yes, the one I built had a slightly different setup. personally love the arms to death, mechs are just grad A awesome in my book. Although with that in mind you don't actually NEED them if you just want a armored body to cast spells from.

3) I >believe < the car in question has a sensor of 3? Regardless of the actual rating on the stock car you can of course upgrade it. There is also a Improved sensor package with lots of neat features you could use.

4) I am not actually sure about the rating on the faraday cage as that was something Neraph pointed out, Ill take a look at it. Even with the cage active there are no wireless signals leaving the vehicle, which incidentally does nothing to say stuff like Cameras. It is also redundant on the fact that ether A) with the cage active there would be nothing keeping you from bouncing signals around the inside the mech (I recall Paint that did something similar) or B) the fact that the mech is Hardwired to prevent Hacking. I don't remember the action required to turn on/off the cage but if you really want to use wireless for some reason then you could turn it on and probably do something else in the same turn.

5) Umm a Force 12 Reinforce spell should equal somewhere around 129 feet which is more than enough to cover the car, although my math could be incorrect

6) As to fix Assuming you cast it at force 12 and scored 12 hits (not including edge or whatever) then you could repair something up to 317 pounds? Obviously the car would weigh more than that or would it? No weights are listed in the books nor do we have a exact layout of building materials. I have heard stories about cars being made of some sort of plastic mix that a human can lift on one end. So it wouldn't be to far of a leap to think something simlier could be built in the far future of 2070. However I have nothing but conjecture and this would have to be discussed with the GM. EDIT: Since this spell may inadequate for our needs you could use the spell creation rules to creation the same spell that can fix a larger volume possibly for a higher drain value

7) The handling should be something like +3 for the car, +1 Walker Mode, for a base of +4. There are other ways I belive there are two positive qualities than can grab another +2 and another add on to the mech for another 1, for a total of 7. Although the mech up till now has none of these so you are stuck at +4.

8 ) From what I understand (and also addressed in the FAQ) is once a mage declares a target to protect via counter-spelling he no longer has to even be around it. If you really want to be able to see I figure you can use the Myopic cable system placed around the mech so you can look around and cast spells at outside targets. This would also allow you to counter-spell the moment a mage casts if you don't want to passively do it.

9) I believe I did the math in previous posts but lets try again. 32-44 armor divided by 2 = 16-22, Adding 3? for the cage and 6 for non-conductivity comes to 25-31. IIRC the vehicle also gets to add body to the resist test bringing the total to 35-41. Then tack on 16 Counter-spelling for a total of 51-59 Assuming you Passed the Object Resistance of 4 easily beatable by a dice pool of 35+. Also FYI you cannot actually damage the mech with a electricity effect as they deal stun damage. The most you can do is try and short out the OS which as stated you cannot do. For added benifet you could have a mana barrier up ( average of 6) for another 6 dice to ignore the spell.

IIRC the arms can also fit Cyberware augmentations, such as STR enhancements (Armor enhancements ) and yes even Cyber Weapons. Although The Mech could probably fit Assault rifles or possibly even LMG's depending on the size.

I also believed you talked about dodging Indirect Combat spells, which you would actually get Response + Handling for a (assuming 6 response) 10.

Interestingly enough if someone would help me remember, I think if you can add all the 13+ gear you want to the Mech as long as the HIGHEST one is 20 or below, that way you could have like 10 13-20 items and only need one restricted gear Positive Quality. I seem to recall it working this way but I don't know for sure.

The perception test is trivial. Since he's at zero quickness dice, he can't make an opposed stealth test to hide his location.

Blind Fire assumes that you can make a lucky guess as to where he's at; after all, you're using Intuition instead of Quickness. You're relying on guesswork, rather than direct eyesight. Under normal circumstances, this would be a problem; it's just that we're going so far into Longshot territory, penalties cease to matter.

Counterspelling only helps in the opposed test, not in damage soaking if it actually hits, so your still limited to Body + 1/2 Impact Armor value there, base and magical. It also states on page 175 that you must remain in the mages LOS for counterspelling to work.

As far as barriers go, I see to many possible arguments there (keeping the barriers anchor steady in a walking mecha, whether it can cover the outside of the vehicle and still be considered immobile). For that reason I'm going to ingore their possiblility for protection of the car/drone.

My bad on the armor availability, I accidentally read the Threshold for installing it instead on those two.

If you read "Jumping Into Drones" on SR4 p.239, it says when you have jumped into a drone, you use the rigger's attributes and skills and specifically states that you use the riggers initiative. That either means Reation + Handling or Reaction + Dogde. If your not jumped in, it's Pilot + Handling. Technically, that could also be read as using your own Body to resist instead of the drones.
This is also the roll that counterspelling counts on.
Personally I would use the lower of your attributes verses the cars, same for skills, but that is just me. Nothing in the RAW to support it. (It would mean Reaction limited by Response + Dodge limited by Handling though)

The copy of Arsenal I have lists the car as +2 Handling and Sensors 1 (Pilot 1 and Body 10 as well). It's late and I don't want to read that much right now, so I can take that as a Handling 4 in walker mode.

Since vehicle mods are supposedly after market, I would only allow 1 item to be installed over 12 Availability without paying for Restricted Gear multiple times, but that's me. I would say that's a GMs call. I could see taking the highest availability piece over 12 and adding a +2 or +3 to that for every other piece over 12, before having to get it twice.

You can also ignore the Faraday Cage by using a fire spell, then only Fire Resistane armor mod would come into play (as far as I know).

Actually, since this "mech" is only 3 to 4 meters tall, including the limbs and all, you do not need any guesses to spot the pilot - there simply is not much space in the vehicle for the pilot to plant his cocoon in.

Damaleon, since our rigger in question is in VR, the drone would be using his Matrix Initiative, not his regular initiative. Reaction has no effect on Matrix Initiative.

Wow, I missed a lot. Starting from the top...

First, soundwave easily goes through all barriers. He doesn't have to target you specifically, just drop it on the mech. If the modified DV of the attack exceeds the modified armor of the barrier it goes through. Since soundwave modifies armor to 0, as long as its doing damage, it goes through the barrier.


How many spells are you gonna be casting? Really, before I take into account any more spells, please, tell me how you are having them be sustained, and how you are casting them at the forces you are.


Yes, but I also doubt he could cast them.


Your numbers are wrong. Indirect combat spells are treated as a ranged test. So spellcasting+magic vs your response to dodge. That is the attack test. Then, if that hits, you get body + 1/2 armor + counterspelling to stage damage down. Also, lightning bolt is Physical damage explicitly. As far as 12 hits, I guarantee you I can make a mage that will have 36 dice for throwing a soundwave.


My point was, it does say it is, and it doesn't say it isn't, so its up to the GM to decide.


Your numbers are wrong, because the attack test is against your response. Also, just because there is a threshold to affect the vehicle, doesn't mean those hits don't count. Against your response of 6, you can resonably get 2 hits. I can get 12. Thats 10 net hits. You need at minimum 30 dice to consistantly avoid that. Half armor for the mech = 10. + 10 special armor mod. +6 faraday cage = 26. Not enough. If I use edge, I can get even more than 12 hits, guaranteeing it will shut down. Oh, and your commlink still will shutdown no matter what, which will still dumpshock you, as well as make the vehicle revert to its pilot.


So, theres a giant black ball walking around? I might not see you in it, but chances are, soundwaving the big black ball of sounds like death isn't out of the question.

Breaking into 2 posts.

Arsenal is allowed to make its own exceptions. It is the rulebook. You cannot arbitrarily declare it a drone, when it doesn't agree with what the rulebook says.


Start throwing around mana statics, and all your magic will poof. In fact, since you can just arbitrarily have any number of sustained force 12 spells, I might as well too. I get a rating 12 mana static, that is cast then dropped, nuking all of your spells, then I soundwave you. You will die.


Oh? How are you going to hit me? With your inability to perceive outside of your faraday cage. Or even see me on the sensors? What kind of skills does this guy have where he can cast force 12 spells (and hand them off to spirits or whatever for sustaining) while also having a respectable perception pool to see what he is trying to kill while in his mech. BTW its -3 dice to spot metahumans with sensors alone. I think you fail.


20 armor is 6R, no biggy.


Except you can't cast spells from it. Unless you get fibreoptics, and aren't rigging it. And even then, you're at -3 for the fibreoptic system at a minimum.


3 - 3 for metahuman = 0. You can't find me. Since having force 12 spells sustained is de facto in this situation. My mage has imp invis 12. Good luck spotting that with your sensors.

Or 3 posts it would seem.

It says you can't perceive past it with sensors. Cameras are a sensor. So, you can't see.


Force 12 is 12 square meters. Surface area on your car is going to be 4m high x2m across or so. x4 sides with those dimentions. 4x2=8x4=32. Plus 2 sides at 2x2 for 8 more. You'd need a force 40.


Yeah, fix is worthless for you. By the same token, I could use the spell creation rules to make a spell that just turns off electronics in an area. Turn off your vehicle, and there we go.


And in a building you'd be in tight terrain. So 4 threshold for all tests. Good luck.


No, you don't need to maintain LOS to sustain a spell once its been cast. Counterspelling ends the second you can't see them. If you're using shadow/camo magic/etc you won't be able to see your mech to counterspell it. If you use fibre you're at a -3 penalty because of the fibre. Oh, but you're rigging it, so you're at -6 while in VR too.


Your armor is bad. The smart mage attacking you mana statics first, to get rid of your spells. Now, armor is 20/2 = 10. + 16 for faraday cage & special armor = 26 armor. +10 body = 36. +Counterspelling at -9 because of you in VR and using fibre for 5 more dice = 41. Lightning bolt does P damage, so it does damage it. So, force 12 with 12 hits = 24 DV. 41 dice = 13 damage soaked on average. you still take 11 DV. 10 body = 10 damage track, mech is damaged and cannot function.



That cover everything? Good.

Ummm you can't buy anything in combat.



Since the bad consequences of the spell hurting you count as bad consequences... you can't buy jack.

Arguably, it does advise the GM to use the buying hits for vehicle armor to speed up combat, since theres so much dice in play there.
SR4, 158, "Since vehicle armor is often much higher than ordinary character armor, gamemasters should remember to use the trade-in rule for large dice pools (4 dice for 1 hit, see Buying Hits, p. 55)."

Well that's a nice set of self-contradictory rules... *glares at the developers again*

Seeing as using armor to avoid damage falls under the

"If the character might suffer bad consequences from failing the test, then the gamemaster should require her to roll the test rather than buying hits."

rule... to then suggest using the rule that says that you should never buy hits for damage tests just plain head to the division by zero error.

I got bored, just a quick throwing together I got this...
Elf
Vodoo tradition (just because having it possess your vehicle is even more funny, but norse for less powergamy goodness)

aptitude spellcasting
magician
sun mentor spirit, +2 combat +2 guardian spirits
restricted gear spellcasting focus

8 charisma
5 willpower
6 magic
7 spellcasting (combat)
4 summoning (guardian)
4 binding (guardian)

spellcasting focus 5
summoning focus guardian 3
binding focus guardian 3

soundwave

Buy binding materials.

Bind 8 force 7 guardian spirits. (His summoning/binding pool is 6 magic + 2 mentors spirit + 4 skill + 2 specialization + 3 focus = 17 dice, average 3 hits on summoning, 1 on binding). Drain taken can be rested off in between, and even at the worst, 14 dice = 8P drain. So he'll live.

Once hes got a nice spirit posse going, go out and look for contracts to kill people who run around in stupidly armored vehicles. Head out, and cast a nice force 12 soundwave on said vehicle. Dicepool for taht is 7 spellcasting + 2 spec + 2 mentor spirit + 5 focus + 56 spirits aid sorcery + 1-6 edge to exceed the hit cap. 73-78 dice. average of 24-26 successes. Anyone inside the vehicles die. Vehicles can be taken by mage and sold.

Note: This costs him 28k in binding materials per cast. Of course, he can still throw out soundwaves at 16 dice on his own, which is enough to routinely hit 5 successes, making a force 6 soundwave do 11S. Putting the victims at his mercy. Drain on this is 11P. But with his 13 resist pool, he can expect to take only 7P, keeping him alive and ready to collect his payment.



Alternately, since he is voodoo, he could just have one of them possess your vehicle (14 dice vs threshold 4, should make it) and then wait for you to get out/starve to death.

Okay Whew man, I have a whole heck of a lot to say back but I have a time limit and most likley wont be back until tomorrow. Just as a heads up everything in your previous posts ( the one with bullet points) I thankfully have a answer that trumps them all, however your most recent post is just so...lol, that I must say something while I have the time.

Pay close attention...don't miss it...

1) Soundwave Deals Stun Damage

2) It DOES ignore armor

3) It DOESN'T ignore Structure and it DOESN'T Ignore Barriers.

I.E> I am immune to soundwave since Objects (Rigger cocoon, The CAR) are (get this) Immune to Stun Damage.

Meaning your soundwave spell cannot bypass the barriers in front of me so I cannot take damage, this of course is true no matter how many successes you get or however high the force of the spell is.

Oh incidentally, even if you possess said vehicle I can just cast some sort of damaging mana based spell (Vehicle is immune, Spirit is not) or cast some other spell like Control Thoughts. I still have 4-5 spell slots open to cherry pick spells to protect me. Once the spirit is gone I can blow your mage away. Oh...Don't forget the mana barrier that I have going, the spirit might not be able to force its way through...meaning your dead...OR I can just Ward my mech...Yea...I like that one too. Oh Yes I almost forgot (lol the answers just keep coming) I could simply banish your spirit.

1) Yes.

2) Yes.

3) No, it doesn't, but the requirement to bypass barriers is to have a damage value higher than the armor value, which, as #2 says, is 0. Since it has a positive DV, it can hit through barriers.

You are not immune to soundwave, though the intervening vehicle won't take any damage. Interestingly enough, barriers DO take damage from stun, so your rigger cocoon will most likely be destroyed as well. But the vehicle will be fine.

Instead of possessing the vehicle, just possess you, have you get out, and stuck your head in a bucket for a couple hours.

How do you propose ignoring the armor equates to having LOE. You are not "shooting through a barrier" as that would be silly. You cannot deal stun damage to vehicles and therefore cannot delete the structure rating. Shooting through barriers is not applicable because A) You are not using a weapon, and by weapon the game means a gun/sword (Something with a AP value). Secondly you cannot "Blind Fire" with a Indirect Combat spell as they follow their own rules nothing more. You need to read the next paragraph about Destroying Barriers. By your reasoning a Fireball cast inside of a room would "Leak" through all openings into the surrounding terrain leaving the walls in a pristine (if hot) condition. No Tarantula I know you want it to work, I know you REALLY want it to work but you need to reduce the barriers structure rating down to 0 or you cannot damage the person behind the barrier

Incidentally you cannot posses me anymore than you could posses the vehicle behind a Ward/Barrier. At least not before I could fill you full of lead.

Yes, I am shooting through a barrier. Vehicles do not have a structure rating. I will do no damage to the vehicle. Shooting through a barrier is applicable, because 1) indirect combat spells are treated as a ranged attack, and thus, are able to shoot through a barrier, and 2) they do have an ap value, it just happens that the ap for soundwave is infinite. You can blind fire an indirect combat spell, because, as i said, they are treated as a ranged attack. They do not follow their own rules... they follow the ranged combat rules. I do not need to worry about destroying a barrier, but even so, as I said, the rigger cocoon will be destroyed by the soundwave. Yes, a fireball cast inside of a room, if its area was larger than the room, could possibly effect things outside of it. Of course, fireball only halves the armor of the barrier, so it would take a higher force one to do that. No one said shooting through a barrier would leave it pristine.

Yes, my spirits can possess you, or merely break your ward/barrier and then possess you. And have one of them possess me so that your guns bounce off.

Wow..just WOW, ummm I don't know what exactly to say to that. Infinity? Just...No....

Umm anyway I find it interesting that you can blind-fire with a spell not because its treated as a ranged attack, but because it requires a (Ranged Weapon Skill) + Intuition (instead of Agility) skill roll. If you can explain how you can do that with Sorcery+Magic then I (and I believe everyone here) would very much like to know.

Incidently Soundwave cannot Ever destroy a object/Barrier/Car/Window/Tissue Paper because objects are immune to stun damage. No matter what you do Soundwave can never damage any Non-Living item. This of course includes the cocoon

Also I am not saying you can't posses my mech/me, I am saying it wont matter as you could never do it fast enough before I shot you to death.

This is all of course ASSUMING you know I am in the mech, for all anyone knows its a drone

This is just silly. How many spells do you think you can sustain?

As for the Indirect Combat Spell, it is indeed treated as a Ranged Combat attack. There must be LOS to the epicenter/apex of the spell, but no LOS is needed to affect all the targets in the area of effect.

From the Shadowrun FAQ ...

Well, it makes the modified armor 0, which effectively is infinite ap.

Yes, it can. You can punch a barrier to destroy it. Punching does stun damage. Ergo, barriers are vulnerable to stun damage. Vehicles are not. You can never harm a vehicle by punching it. (Without anything to make your punch to P anyway).

Yes, I could, I have a spirit possess me first, so you can't shoot me to death, then I have one possess the drone, since it goes off astral initiative, chances are it'll go first. Oh, and once you manabolt that one, I'll have one possess you, and that'll be that.

Well I count Hush, Armor, Reinforce (or whatever).... No other spells come to mind. That's 3, making a -6 penalty (-3 if we Psyche). Still within the realm of Sustainability.

I do not believe the Soundwave spell functions as you believe it does, due to some confusion with barriers and areas of effect. I think a Manaball would be a lot more reasonable.

Barring even that, Pulse the sucker.

Spells aside, have we at least determined that his armor stacks properly? Because that is the point of this whole thread.

I don't believe it has been stressed enough that NO ONE KNOWS A PERSON IS IN THE MECH!

That aside, the mech is also still vulnerable to gas grenades, radiation damage, and super-damage.

For instance, take the vehicle mounted Gauss rifle and give it the full-auto firing mode selection. Now, a 400 BP starting character can't afford that, but you know what, if this mech is as hard to kill as it looks, the military might get the call, and they'd probably have something like that.

Besides, who even said that this mech is a bad guy? For all anyone here knows, he could have that water cannon vehicle mounted weapon and call himself a "Vigilante Firefighter". Killing this guy could be a disservice to the society.

Also, this vehicle only has a strength of like 10. Collapse a building on him. He won't take damage, but he's not going anywhere either.

This is you people (in the box). Come outside and play.

Lets assume a force 12 spriit posseses you and gives you Imumminty to Normal weapons (hardened armor 12), meaning I need to beat 12.... A Minigun with Ex Explosives rounds is 24P BASE, + Skill hits. Your mage would be a pool of red blood and gore after my first round of shooting.

No, Modified armor 0 is not AP. AP is a plus or minus to the armor rating , Elemental spells simply modify a armor rating. I can see what your going for but its fundamentally flawed.

Its interesting that you say that, punching through a barrier when I get back home I will take a look at that, and also include my list of answers to your questions.

you still haven't answered how you could Blind Fire with a spell.

EDIT: Also, and this is intresting, because the rigger cocoon takes up a modifacation slot it "Becomes" a part of the vehicle. So in this case it is "The vehicle" and "A barrier"

Not if its been involved in 5 murders LOL (-100%)

We all know that shouldn't work.

Hell, it was used in 10 murders, they paid me what it's worth to take it!

Anyways. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to say that the stun damage an unarmed attack deals to the barrier is an exemption to the rule that stun does not affect objects, rather than the rule itself? Otherwise, why would they say that stun damage does not affect objects?

Hush, Armor, Reinforce (which wouldn't work) physical camo, shadow, mana barrier, physical barrier.... I think there were a few others mentioned too.

Soundwave does function the way it does. I'll run through it point by point.
It negates all armor.
In order to hit something behind a barrier, you must do DV > armor of the barrier.
To hit someone with an indirect combat spell, you do not need LOS to them, merely LOS to the center of the affected area, and for them to be within that spherical area.

Can I see a point that is less than 12 meters from all areas of the mech? Yes? Great, then I can cast it, and the mech and everything within will be hit by the spell (if it bypasses the barriers, which it does automatically since it reduces armor to 0).

Pulse? Oh no, you turned off his radio, even though its already enclosed in the faraday cage. Great job... does nothing to him. At all.

As far as the stacking, yes, vehicle armor + personal armor + worn armor + spells will stack when being attacked. Given that its been noted that we don't know this walking car has a person inside it, and that it would be a blindfire attack to shoot him, I doubt that will happen, and the vehicle will get attacked instead.

Right, which is why I said a spirit could possess it, then when my spirit is disrupted, I could reasonably assume the mech had a passenger, and nuke it. Or you know, the fact that its a car, and not a drone, typically means its got a driver.


He has the room to throw in an enviroseal on the mech. So gas won't work. As far as a vehicle mounted gauss rifle? That'd work. And probably destroy him in one shot to boot. Of course, saying "the military can kill him" is hardly thinking outside the box. Chargen legal, buy a GE Vanquisher Heavy Autocannon with restricted gear, load it with AV rounds (another restricted gear) and blow his ass up. Vehicle has 20 armor, it has -12 AP. Do a narrow burst and hit him for 21P. He won't be able to soak it (10 body + 8 armor). Boom. Guess what happens to the mage inside?

Has to beat it before full auto is taken into account. A minigun (assuming the GE vindicator minigun) with ex ex is 7P. Which is a far cry less than 24. BTW, ItNW is twice the magic rating, so even with your bad math on the minigun, you still don't exceed it with 24P and I would take no damage.

You use the ranged combat modifiers for casting indirect combat spells. One of those modifiers is blind fire, which is a -6 penalty. The magic rules say that it is a spellcasting + magic test still, but using ranged modifiers, so they overrule that the blindfire causes you to use int + ranged weapon skill.

As far as the rigger cocoon, yes and no. It specifically has a structure and barrier rating, so it would be up to the GM how to treat it. Either way, vehicle combat rules in SR4 also say that full auto attacks and area attacks hit both vehicle and passengers. Soundwave is an area attack, thus it hits both. (Even if ineffectual on the vehicle).

Quote me where it says stun damage does not affect objects.

The reason it does not affect vehicles, is because it states specifically that VEHICLES do not suffer from stun damage.

Even if he can't see you, he can still make an attack; he's just using Intuition instead of Quickness at -6 for blind fire. Of course, since he doesn't use Quickness at all for indirect spells, there would be no penalty.

FYI, Immunity to Normal Weapons works like Hardened Armor, which requires modified DV to exceed the rating, not base DV.

Also, the Pulse spell is not targeting his cameras or sensors, it's targeting his mech. Since his mech's engine is not optical, or hell the joints aren't optical, poof goes the mecha with 4+ successes.

As for the Rigger cocoon in the vehicle... Guess what? That Vehicle now also has a structure rating, and is treated as a barrier! No GM required!

Alright these are out of order FYI its late and I don't feel like rearranging them.

1) Object resistance is not discounted from the total DV of a spell. You need NET hits above the 4, there is even a little excerpt detailing how this works on page 174. For a quick example Force 5 spell, 4 hits on vehicle = 5 damage to vehicle, Force 5 spell, 3 hits on vehicle = no damage to vehicle.

2) The riggers cocoon so far is not sealed so mainting LOS would not be hard, you can get creative in this area, something like periscope or whatever. Even while your "jumped" into the mech you ARE the mech and see through its "eyes". It would be incredibly easy to maintain LOS to it when your looking at "your hand" "leg" etc etc.

3) All spells are cast at force 6

4) I never once said we were in a building, although I could go in one if needed. Being jacked into my mech it drops the threshold by 1 for all vehicle tests for a new total of 3 need hits. We are at 12+ dice so this is a non-issue

5) Fix is not worthless, it MIGHT be depending on how heavy the car is. Since we do not KNOW how heavy it is, this is left up to conjecture.

6) 1 Square Meter is Equal to 10.7 Square feet (This is Cubic Feet) Go look at one of your 6 sided dice. Just with 1 or 2 Square Meter available we can cover the entire car AND THEN SOME, the spell works differently than what you think, it is Force x Hits. So if I cast it at force 12 with 12 hits that 24 Square Meters. IE 240+ Square feet that's large enough to cover most apartments. Using my own car as a example (as the car I am using is a Sports Car) a 1995 Camero has these dimensions

Length 186.2 inches
Height 53.0 inches
Width 79.6 inches

Meaning the car is roughly 15 feet long, 4 and some change feet tall, and 6 and some change feet wide. 12-13 square feet is more than enough to encompass the car. I am not sure what sort of crazy math you are using but 24 square meters (max) is excessive and more than I will ever need,

7) Thats nice that cameras are listed as sensors, however the faraday cage only affects things that rely on wireless signals. Having multiple Hardwired cameras and other misc sensors we can easily keep a eye on whats going on around us.

8 ) I can cast and "Rig" during the same turn as there is a positive quality that makes it a free action to jump in or out.

9) I believe if you cast mana static it is beneficial to you. I could be wrong seeing as how I dont even know what it does.

10) Hush, Silence are both cast at force 6, although looking at the drain we could cast them higher. Also there is nothing stopping us from Casting Silence 4-5 times and added all the +dice together, 5 x 6 hits = 30 dice alone to resist soundwave.

11) I can certainly have some elementals to sustain my spells, not very hard

I can cast each spell at force 1 +Edge and stick them into a Rating 1 sustaining Foci

I can maintain the spells myself using Pshcye for -1 per spell

12) Trying to "spot" someone via sensors with a perception + whatever else only matters if my target is activaly trying to hide from me. Otherwise it is automatic, oh btw, casting spells or shooting at me means your not trying to hide.

13) The rules don't care how much wiggle room I have in my car, It only checks for 2 things... 1) Do you have cover? and 2) Are you being observed. The answer to both of these questions is a resounding NO. I may have a huge penalty to infiltration tests but Cain has already provided the answer. By using Longshot with 4 edge I can buy one success and which the Camo/Shadow + whatever you are at - 16+ dice to see me, meaning its a automatic failure.

14) By your own argument that drone with a 6 body cannot be a drone. There is no disclaimer saying this one and only drone breaks the normal rules like the simsense booster does. Want to know why? Because that rule doesnt exisit, that table listing body from 1 to 4 is there to help you get a grasp on the Size of the drone. The simple act of giving something a control rig turns it into a drone, go read the Control Rig description in Arsenal.

15) How can you attack me in a big black ball? You cannot declare the Shadow spell to be a object so it is invalid for targetting purposes, and you cannot target the ground around me since it is covered by my spell. Unless the AOE of your spell is larger than mine you cannot hurt me. I can also "See" myself while inside the spell as it only applies a penalty for the outside looking in.

16) There is a spell that shuts down all electronics..called Pulse, you wont need to "go create your own spell"

17) and dude I am sorry but you cannot Blind Fire with a indirect spell, you are only allowed to use Sorcery + Magic when casting your spell. The Firearms skill and Intuition or agility (it doesn't matter which) are a invalid choice for you. The rules don't magically change to accommodate since you want to use Blindfire, you also don't "change the skill" when a new situation arises. This is the formula for a spellcast, in the front of the magic section

1) Use Sorcery + magic +Any other applicable modifiers

2) Net hits + Force of spell = damage done to Target(s)

3) Resist drain

There is no "hidden" step for you and no extra dice to roll. Being treated as a ranged attack allows the victims a chance to dodge out of the way since it is "Splash" damage. No more no less

18) No Cain, you cannot target me with a blindfire unless you can somehow "Make me out" the blind fire rules are very clear on this, you also cannot call shot me for the same reasons, and as mentioned above if you cannot even Perceive me there is no middle ground. As the main book it self says "If enough hits are not scored on the opposed test, the attack automatically fails"

No Tarantula No, please tell me you have actually read the rules you are trying to use

We don't have to use the Vindicator , we can use that other one that's 6p and 12R, the way it works is 6 base, +1 Ex, +14 Full auto = 21 (so my quick numbers were slightly off) 21 DV typically kills most people and to make matters worse we add on Net hits on top, we can assume a average of 5 hits (assuming a 20 dice pool) for a total of 26 Dv, you also take -9 to dodge due to bursting.

Don't like the Minigun?

Full Auto Mp Ares = 15 DV + Hits with -Half Impact...your still dead

Don't like that either?

How about my mech HITS you in the face, 10/2 = 5 dv +4 for a sword/axe whatever + Hits Looking at around a 15ish DV still more than Enough to beat your 12 hardened armor.

Or we can RAM you for like 20+ DV

etc etc etc

Your cannon idea works like this

10P at -11 Armor....My armor is 32 BASE and can go HIGHER, meaning I now have a 21 Armor. You Need 12+ hits in order to damage my mech or the shot bounces off of it dealing no damage. 11 Hits is a lot to get and I certainly hope your human mage is not "Carrying" this around with him. He wouldn't even be able to walk around in broad daylight with it and would suffer a -2 or -5 for just trying to shoot it.

21+ hits will beat your hardened armor of 24

Autofire either adds to damage or reduce dodge, but not both at the same time. Also that +whatever to damage doesn't count to penetrate armor.

First you make a big hole with explosive or some tunneling machine just under the drone. Thump, the drone/car/whatever is down there. Then add some more explosives or flammable material on top and wait for the rigger soup to be ready. Another way would be air-lift the drone and drop it... Btw, if you layer armor and add those together, the whatevers do pierce the armor's top layers making it weaker slowly. Eventually one can gnaw through just about everything, like the grand canyon for example

Guess couple of spirits could even lift the car and take it to orbit. Doubt that the drone has too many weapons that can shoot straight down, either. One could also first just disarm the drone by blowing away the guns. If they are external, they are easily removable and if they are internal, their limited field of fire is major hindrance. After disarming, sink it to concrete or dip it into molten metal. Distract the thing for a while and have a bigass forklift to take the thing airborne and move it to which ever sounds most tempting. One screwed rigger, I would say.

Want some more ways to get rid of your toy? Bunkerbuster rockets would also work...

Yes, modified, but full auto is not part of the modified DV.
SR4, 143 "Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating."

Pulse... SM, 174, "This spell will erase standard RFID tags and may also affect other non-optical and non-hardened electronic circuit systems within the area of effect. Most electronics in 2070 are optical-based, but the spell might affect some archaic devices and power systems."
Won't do shit. At all.

As far as the rigger cocoon... Arsenal, 142, "The rigger cocoon has an Armor rating of 20 and a Structure rating of 10 (see Barriers, p. 157, SR4). Increase the rigger’s dice pool by 5 in all cases where the rigger cocoon can help protect him from damage due to crashing or vehicle maneuvers."
It does not say "the vehicle gains an armor rating of 20 and structure of 10." It is the cocoon only.


Looks like you're right on this one, my bad. Though, since the spell won't do any damage to the vehicle anyway, it doesn't really matter.


Even periscope is -3 for casting through it. If you are jumped in the mech, you do not have LOS as far as anything at all magic is concerned.


Ok.


12+ dice? Really? So you have not only an aptitude on counterspelling, but 6 response and 6 in the vehicle skill?


Yes, it is. You have 20 points of armor on it. Its too heavy.


Reinforce, 6 square meters.
From http://www.onlineconversion.com/area.htm 6 square meter = 64.583 462 5 square foot Read reinforce again, SM, 174, 'This spell increases the structural integrity of an object no larger than caster’s Magic in square meters." It is not times hits.
Now, this is area. Not volume. for simplicity, I calculated the area of your mech as a rectangle, which has 6 sides. If I take each of the 6 sides (we said 4x2x2 meters... there is 4 sides with 4x2 for the height and width. 8x4=32. Then the 2 sides with 2x2, 2x4=8. 32+8=40 square meters. You can cover 6. Doesn't work.
For you camero, the area it has, would be 186.2x53=9868.6x4=39474.4 + 53x79.6=4218.8x2=8437.6 total is 47912 square inches. Divide by 12 and its 3992 square feet. Divide by 3 and get 1,330 square yards. Does not work.

Stupid too many quote tags.

Read the vehicle mod.
Arsenal, 135, "In order to be effective, all electrically sensitive components must be completely contained within the faraday cage and insulated from it. This means that no sensors can extend beyond the cage."
No sensors (cameras are a sensor) can extend beyond the cage. You're effectively blind.


No, you can't. You could jump out, and then cast. Then the next turn jump in, and then spend a complex/2 simples on driving. But you can not cast and take a vehicle action in the same turn, because casting is a complex action, and rigging is simple/complex depending on what you do.


It could be, it would negate most of your spells. It creates a background count equal to the hits gotten on the spellcasting test in its area. This would cause any spells of equal or lesser force to not work, and any spells of greater force to be weakened by its rating.


Sure, you could cast them, and thats 4-5 more spells you need to have sustained. Not to mention, a single mana static turns them all off.


Really? Cause you have to have the right kind for the spell type, and you'd need to have them bound to have more than one. Oh, but your charisma would have to be high enough to bind that many of them. You need to stat out your super rigger mage.


Sure, do you have a few dozen edge? No? Well then.
Sure, you do that. You're still at almost 10 spells now, you'll be worthless in a fight with that kind of penalty.


Guess what, I can use infiltration, that means I'm hiding. I can still too.


One success... and just by having contacts with vision enhancement 3, I can buy a hit and see you. Likewise, I can use my own longshot test, and spend edge to get that 1 success needed to see you.

Stupid too many quote tags take 2.

Wrong. The book declares what is a drone and what is not. There are tables that list drones, and tables that list vehicles. If it is not in the drone table, it is not a drone.


You said spells are cast at force 6. So its a 6 meter black ball. My soundwave is a 12 meter area effect. I can cast it at the edge of the black ball, and hit everything in it.
You can not see yourself. Re-read the spell, SR4, 204, "Shadow creates a globe of darkness with a radius equal to the spell’s Force in meters. Every hit imposes a –1 die pool visibility modifier against targets within the area (maximum –6)."
Against targets within the area. You're in the area, you're trying to see yourself, it applies to you.


Shuts down old and archaic electronics, most in SR4 are optical and won't be effected. Your drone is one of them.


SR4, 196, "Indirect Combat spells are treated like ranged combat attacks; the caster makes a Magic + Spellcasting Success Test versus the target’s Reaction." By your logic, I can't attack a drone with them, because drones use response to dodge attacks, but the indirect combat section says its against reaction.
I am not blind firing. I am attack an area near your black ball of death, and my spell just happens to have enough area of effect to affect you inside of your mech.


SR4, 196, "the caster makes a Magic+ Spellcasting Success Test versus the target’s Reaction. If the spell hits, the target resist with Body + half Impact armor (+ Counterspelling, if available), with each hit reducing the Damage Value."
Sorcery + magic + whatever else yes.
Target makes reaction check.
Net hits + force is damage, resisted with body + half impact + counterspelling. Honestly, read the rule before you just make shit up.
Lastly, resist drain.

Stupid too many quote tags take 3.

I don't target you with blindfire. I target a spot next to the black ball. You just are in the area of effect.


You first.


Only other minigun is the Ares MP-MG, which is 6P and 12F. But I'll assume you're talking about that one. It works is 6base, +1 ex = 7P. + net hits. You say 5, so thats 12P. That is compared against the armor (24) 12<24 so no damage done.
If I wasn't possessed, then 12P gets the +9 on top of it to make it 21, and would kill me.
Alternately, its 12P, but i get -9 to dodge, which is more in your favor, since that will likely increase your net hits, which do count against getting through the armor.


Again, my hardened armor is 24. Read the rules.
SR4, 288, "A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an “Armor rating� equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as “hardened� protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage."
24 Hardened armor, your attacks do nothing.


Assuming you can hit me.


Arsenal, 123, "All armor but smart armor is reduced by half against the gauss cannon (before applying the AP modifier)."
So, you have 32 or so armor. Drops to 16. Then -12 AP to 4. 4 < its 18P damage, so it will hit you.


Sure, except also realize I have a +12 to my reaction. And I'd be curious to how you plan to get 21+ hits.



Before you reply. Please read the relevant rules. I've quoted pretty much all of the ones you didn't bother to read before replying last time.

Also, stat your mage out. I guarantee you there is no possible way you can do everything you're saying you can. Go with 1500karma even, You won't be able to pull everything off.

Oh, I do like BullZeyes idea. Just a shape asphalt spell. Cast at force 12, move 12 meters of asphalt out from under you, then back on top of you.

Spirits can't go into orbit.

You also are imagining the mech sitting still. He probably won't want to go into this hole. I don't want to fall into a hole.

Man, Tarantula... Man.

*deep breath*
OK!

You haev yourself said multiple times that you are not blindfiring with a spell. Therefore, Blindfire rules do not apply. You can't hit him with your AoE. Done.

And thank you very much for telling us that Pulse doesn't work. We thought it did. That's one more thing this guy's immune to.

On a second reading of Mana Static, it's a permanent spell. So you'll have to sustain it for a while before it comes into affect, meaning we have some time to find you. Also, it affects everyone equally; it is not aspected for the magician casting it. It even says "..., including the caster." (Street Magic, pg. 173).

Maybe you have some problems with figuring out how ItNW works. I hope this helps... "This Immunity Armor is treated as "hardened" protection (see Hardened Armor above),..." (SR4, pg. 288). "If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration),, then it bounces harmlessly off the critter:..." (SR4, pg. 288, emphasis added). That sentence on page 143 only applies to Burst Fire Narrow Bursts.

More later, need to regroup my brain.

That's actually very interesting, I love how just one sentence can mess up a whole idea. However I have some tricks left.
1) We will use any of the 6P LMG's here, using suppressive fire with a Minigun deals 1.5 the base value for a total of 9DV. The rules for suppressive fire says it uses the rules for Wide Bursts and wide bursts do not have the stipulation saying the damage is not used against the armor of the target. So now we have a 9P attack, certainly not enough to damage the hardened armor. So now we use Stick and Shock bullets which do 6S (x1.5 = 9S) and apply HALF impact armor, now we only need 3 successes to equal or exceed your Hardened Armor fo 12, and incidentally you have -14 to dodge.
2) The Ares Mp Laser does 6P, with Full auto Mode we can Wide Burst it to apply a -9 to dodge and -Half your impact = 12. We then need 6 hits to negate the hardened armor. While this one is a little harder to pull off its still enterily within the realm of poosiblity
3) NeuroToxin is a Contact, Ingested vector poison that does 10P of damage and you only get to use a Toxin Resistence test meaning your hardened armor is useless. This can be delivered in a grenade, in those little capsule bullets, or if we are close enough a injector.

All three of these ideas can easily drop a 24 hardened armor




Well I am glad to know that, thanks for making this mech much more powerful





Thats intresting as I don't remeber reading anything about that. I DO remeber a -6 to do anything in the real world..like Look at things, and since the mech isnt trying to hide no test is require




Lets see 4(Pilot Anthroform) = 6, Response of 6 can be bought (and upgraded with a response chip to 11 at 20R) +2 for all vehcile tests while being jumped in. So that comes to 19 dice. or -5 for the chip = 14
EDIT: I also forgot my handling of 4, so 23 with the chip or 18 without it.



Prove it




Ah I apologize was looking at the Fix spell, Thanks for doing some of the work for me, but a car is not a fully fleshed out rectangle, it cannot fill the box so yes I belive the car will fit, although I wont do the math on it now.

Incidentally I seem to recall a specific example of a person bypassing a Faraday cage with a Fiber Optic cable linked up to some equipment outside of it. IIRC then that means I am right.


Prove it, If Casting is a Complex and Jumping into/out is a free. Then that means I can do it in the same pass/turn



If that's true then that means it hurts you too. All of a sudden this spell sucks hard and is not feasibly used.


I think I wouldn't mind a penalty of -4 to keep my character alive...of course assuming they aren't in Foci. Do you even read my posts. Incidentally Manastatic would Gimp you too




Honestly I am not sure what the charisma would be, I left it all open for people who want to use the idea. Although since we only got like 3-4 spells that need to be sustained then we would only need a charisma of 3-4. Not (of course including) Foci. Oh....Do the spirits need to be MINE?> I can just borrow services from a 6/6 contact. Lets make him a dragon since you brought that up lol, or more realistically we can borrow from another member of my shadow running team.


Who said I had to cast them all in the same day



Good then your not attacking me




Thats nice all those extra dice to SEE are at a -16-28 penalty, you will never be able to spot me. Good please a edge I have counted you using 3 edge so far. now you can see me...how much do you have left. Also I can just...Hide again