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Hey man.. Ragewind, Neraph, Cain... were all trying to help you. Even the kids want to help you..THINK OF THE KIDS, what this comes down to is In MY game its a drone, and in YOUR game is a car...even with a Control Rig. So that's fine let it go and move on. A body of 10 still means 20 armor one way or the other.



The black ball extends 6 meters from me, meaning you would have to cast 7 meters away and your 6 meter range is now so small to hit me. I can even withhold dice from my test to increase the distance. You can to but guess what...still1 meter away.


Once again thank you



Drones have their own rules for dodging ranged attack, but I am not a drone am i?



Well that's nice but I wasn't talking about what happens with a indirect combat spell, I was talking about spellcasting. Even with a Indirect combat spell you only add one step at the beginning. Nowhere does it talk about you making a Firearms +Skill test to shoot past a barrier. Nice try though

I don't know if the character could do it, but since you brought up possession I could have some of my spirits posses me and my ride. Or just have a friend do it for me.

Also I mentioned previously that I figured my mech looks like Lancelot from Code Geass. ALl the Knightmare Frames in that show have their head open up and a sensor..thing comes out and lets them talk. I like how the Faraday cage can duplicate that effect. Oh and about looking out of my mech what prevents me (other than maybe the cocoon) from looking out my polarized windows.

A Million Billion..if I have too. Using the longshot rules everyday I can keep casting and Casting and Casting until I have a Million Billion. Sure I probably wont be able to do anything but I will have a million Billion spells on me all legal like.

12 meters in one casting, so he'll fall in it. No problem.



Yes, blindfire rules don't apply. I do still hit him with the spell, because he is still in the spells area of effect. How hard is that to figure out. Is he within 12 meters of where I cast my force 12 soundwave? Yes. Then he is effected by it.


No, it comes into effect when cast.


That sentence applies to all narrow bursts.

Wide bursts don't grant a bonus to damage. So thats why it doesn't say it doesn't apply. Stick and shot actually only does 6S, always. Since it replaces the damage code. So you would actually need 7 net hits (since you must exceed the armor in order to bypass ItNW. Also, the mage can and would be wearing non-conductive armor as well.


Yeah, but you still haven't shown what you can actually afford to have on your car, much less with what kind of skill you can be shooting it with.


No reason that my armor can't also have chemical seal. And my spirit still gives me +12 to body for resisting the damage. Not to mention the reaction bonus to avoid the attack in the first place.


Not really. 2 require 6 net hits (unlikely to happen) and the last one requires me not having chem seal on my armor.


Sure.


SR4, 324, "Spellcasting targeted through optics this way suffers a –3 dice pool modifier."
Yeah, -6 for "looking" while in vr. -6 for your shadow spell. And yes, it will require a test. It isn't obvious in a completely dark sphere.


You can't get a response 11 chip. And that 14 dice assumes you aren't sustaining any spells, at all.


No, it isn't a full rectangle, but no, the car won't even come close to fitting.

Except the rules don't allow that. So you're not.


Yes, you will be "in" the vehicle. You won't have done anything with it however. And you haven't taken a vehicle action that pass, so it would need to make a crash test.


I cast it, pop you sustained spells, then drop it before its permanent. Guess what, now your sustained stuff is gone, and I'm fine.


Doesn't mean it'll keep you alive. And no, manastatic won't hurt me at all. I'm still waiting for you to show me how you are going to buy this mech, all those foci, your commlink, have a magic of 6, know all of those spells, bind all these spirits and the rest of it. Show me how you can make it happen.



Oh? We get shadowrunning teams now? Well, thats easy, I get a ritual assassination team going, and kill you, and you won't even realize its coming.


And how do you keep yourself alive in the meantime?


Infiltration test so you won't see me, then ambush. You still need to make your perception check to notice me.



No, they aren't. Longshot says, ignore the penalties, use your edge and see if you make the test.

As far as edge spending, how many have used? A few dozen by now?

Its a car. Yes, body 10 means it still can have 20 armor.


No, it extends 6 meters from where it was cast. And can be moved with a complex action. My spell is being cast at force 12, and easily outranges the 6 meters.


Drones and vehicles. They use response.


No, but you are still in the area of effect, so going with that literal reading of the book, you are in the area, so it hits you, it doesn't need to bypass any barriers.


Great, you have your spirit possess you, now you can rig the drone. Spirit possess the vehicle too, fine. Soundwave will still disrupt both spirits, and kill you as a bonus.


Yeah, except when its out, your faraday cage doesn't work. The fact that you're in VR prevents it. You'd need to have someone disable the RAS override, so you could still move your body. Then succeed on a -6 perception check for being in VR. Not to mention another -6 for your shadow spell.


You won't keep getting edge just by sitting in a room and waiting around.

On this point, he is correct. A drone is defined by rigger adaptation. The problem is there's a difference between a drone chassis, and a riggable drone, just like there's a difference between the Pilot program (that is the brains behind all Agents, IC, and vehicle Pilots) and Pilot Programs for vehicles.


No, he wouldn't. The darkness extends 6 meters out from a central point, not from the entire vehicle. At least some of the vehicle would be enveloped by the spell, which means the needed area is reduced. Another Force 6 AoE spell, targeted on the outside of the darkness bubble, will hit you.

Besides which, you're forgetting the easiest choice:

Edge 8: 95 BP
Sniper Rifle: <1 BP.
Look on his face when you take out the mechatank in one called shot: Priceless.

Tarantula you do know that edge recharges ever 24 hours right?

Learn to comprehend plz k thx bai.

Actually, it doesn't. There is no hard rule for refreshing Edge, but there's several suggestions. It's entirely up to GM discretion, though.

It does indeed replace the damage code but the Suppressive fire rules for Miniguns say you take the damage of the gun (changed to 6S) and now x it by 1.5, changes it to 9. Oh and now your guy has nondonductive armor eh? You see when I added non-conductive it made sense as thats a valid weakness of a machine, but what kinda runs does your guy go on if he needs Non-Conductive armor mods stranded. Incidentally if I hit you with Elec damage you have to make that neat little test or become stunned.



IIRC correctly the laser costs...like 12ishK? so what 2 1/2 BP, oh and the damage code is 7P meaning I need 5 successes. I should think this would be obvious by now whether its me or my mech that shoots you we would have 4 skill base.



Well considering you can only have a Chem Seal on a suit of armor that completly covers your character AND that you have non-conductivity things not only are going to get pricey but your going to need to create a character with a decent body for the encumbrance rules will start jacking you around. Not to mention some neat armor juggling to be able to have both at max rating.


Its actually 3, 5, and Chemseal does nothing if I deal damage with the attack



Alright then since you seem to be latching onto the Shadow Spell lets change it back to another Application of CHamealon, same sustain penalty without the problem of can I see myself. (incidently I get a spell slot back)



Oh yes I completly agree with you, thank god I don't have a rules breaking 11 response chip. If you bothered to take a look at the rules (and my post) you will notice its a 6 response comlink WITH a rating 5 response chip added in for a total of 11. Oh yes.. that's right 19-23 dice with a -3 or -4 is totally going to ruin my sinister plans.

More following

Yes it would



Umm except they do, the whole point of a example is to explain how the rules work. Also..what did you say? The books get to break the rules right?



Not true if the vehicle is not moving, also the car HAS A PILOT PROGRAM, and can move on its own.



It doesn't actually remove the sustained spells, it simply lowers their force (While its active)



As I stated in my very first post I told you how much money you will need to build the mech and that was overstating it as the car ,with upgrades, costs around d 43k, 8-9 BP



Ummm.... we ARE playing shadowrun right? I don't know what kind of magical game you play but when I play shadowrun I play with 4 other people.

Oh jeez thats a tough one, a number of ideas come to mind the best being my spells were in place BEFORE THE GAME STARTED its 3 BP per foci and binding costs all together. Also why WOULDNT my guy be safe, what reason would anyone have to kill him while he sits in his apartment watching Tri-Dee when he has never gone out on a shadowrun before?


You sure are making lots of assumptions about terrain, and general location. I'm not saying I have this but a ultra-wide band radar would pick you out from thousands of feet away. No test required



Yes, its impossible without longshot, and even WITH it you might not roll well enough to even get that one success.



Well in that case then I could cast mine at force 12 and you will still have the same problem, on top of the possbility to with holding some dice to extend the range a bit.



Thats nice, the character doesn't though


As as been mentioned Barriers bock LOE do you are out of luck, LOS means nothing LOE means everything

Edge 8: 95 BP
Sniper Rifle: <1 BP.
Look on his face when you take out the mechatank in one called shot: Priceless. cool.gif

Nice

Another thing that can defeat 24 hardened armor is a Flechetti Pain Inducer

8s at -Half Impact

If the Modified damage beats your willpower you fall to the ground and spasm in pain.

Yea...

That's beautiful, I would then need 4 successes to equal or beat 12 Impact, we can even make it a full auto / Burst fire weapon for extra punch.

Maybe we just get twenty GM Heavy Cannons and shoot both the drone/car/mage/rigger and the guy trying to geek the other into pieces? That's 17P -8AP 20 per round as we have them bolted on a battleship that a guy with 12 response commlink is driving and each of his cannons are piloted with a 6 rating pilot (also with 12 response). Also the battleship is equipped with a dozen of Mitsubishi-GM Outlaw batteries loaded with Block V's.

Try dodging that, boys.

It's bit expensive but ought to get the job done to blow up even the most stubborn folks...

You know what sir, I see the point you are trying to make and I gracefully bow out. Good luck guys and enjoy my creation, more to come on other subjects later.

Oh? No, it does. It says they suffer the vindicators base damage x 1.5 explicitly. That means 9P. And the ammo can't be used. Since you're going with such a literal interpretation of the rules.


Yeah, 12k, and 18F, so you need to blow 5 bp on restricted gear to get it.


Hardly pricey at all. FFBA covers the entire character. Chem seal on that. Lined coat on top of it, with non-conductive. I don't know about you, but 99% of my shadowrunners I make ever, have non-conductive armor. Why? Becuase, the half ap of electricity sucks, and that pretty much negates it.


No, it isn't. Chem seal says nothing about not working if you damage with the attack.


So, then you're at -4 to perceive instead of -6.


You can't have an 11 reponse chip. Nor can you add in a rating 5 chip into a commlink. I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. But taking a rating 6 response, you can replace it with a rating 5 instead, but you can't put a second one in and say they add together.


No, it wouldn't. The car has curves, and things of that nature, which would only extend the surface area on it. I gave you a rough estimation of how you far exceed 6 meters of area. Please, feel free to do some advanced geometry and try to show me wrong on it.


Arsenal, 135, "This means that no sensors can extend beyond the cage." No, they don't.


I was slightly off, but you are wrong.
SR4, 160, "Drivers must spend at least one Complex Action each turn driving their vehicle, or the vehicle goes out of control at the end of the Combat Turn. Apply a –2 dice pool modifier to all actions by characters in an uncontrolled vehicle. If the driver does not make a Vehicle Test to regain control of the vehicle in one Combat Turn, it crashes."
So, you get a -2 for not spending the complex action on the vehicle. And if you don't succeed in a vehicle test the next turn, you crash.


Yes, it does. SM, 118, "Pre-existing wards, mana barriers, active foci, sustained spells, and quickened/anchored spells are similarly affected. Reduce their Force by the absolute value of the background count. If the Force is reduced to zero or less, wards and mana barriers will collapse, foci will deactivate, and spells will fizzle."
As long as the mana static gets as many hits as the force of your spell, they will fizzle out and need to be recast.

And you've modified it numerous times since then. Please, make the actual statblock of your character sheet, at least, attributes, skills, qualities, and the mech. There is no possible way for you to do this from character gen.


Last I checked, assassinations are shadowruns. And a ritual assassination team is very good at those.


Before the game started huh? Well, then I want to start with a force 6 armor spell that was cast before the game started with edge, for 3million hits. Thanks.


I make an infiltration test, you need to make a perception test to notice me. Terrain doesn't matter. Oh, and ultra-wide band has a range of 100m.


And you are relying on longshot to spot me. So we're even there.


No, I wouldn't. If you're in the center of it, I only need to reach 6 meters.



I'm not shooting at you. I'm attacking the vehicle with my nice area attack soundwave spell. Since its an area attack spell, both you, and the vehicle have to make damage resistance tests. This completely negates the barrier issues too.


As I just showed above, I don't even need to be trying to attack you, just the vehicle with an area attack. All passengers automatically have to resist the damage too.


You actually have to exceed the armor, so 5 successes. Oh, and its treated like a toxin attack, so chemseal protects against it.


Actually.... if I just cast a meger armor spell on my mage possessed by a force 12 spirit, I have a good chance to not be damaged by one of those. Block 5 unfortunately also bounce off.

End result. You came up with a vehicle with max armor. And threw armor spell and reinforce spell on it. Not exactly a novel concept. Oh, and misapplied quite a few rules in the process.

I'll be around to correct you on your next idea too.

Next subject? What about the ubermage-cyberzombie?


As long as the charakter is not stated on paper, he does not suffer any magicloss for real *rolleyes*

I cede the point of permanent duration spells Tarantula, but there are still a lot of things I don't believe you're seeing. The fact that the rigger cocoon is treated as a barrier and is in the vehicle prevents stun damage from damaging the barrier, thus ending LoE for your soundwave. I don't believe it will affect the rigger. It should, but I don't think the rules support your claim. I suggest you use a manabolt, which if I am not mistaken will ignore all the unliving components and damage him anyways.

Even if your soundwave does work, all you've proven is you'll have to specially build a character to defeat this mecha, meaning in the real game world, he's virtually unbeatable. Only Military and Special Mages can hurt it. Good job Ragewind.

Incidentally, I do not like the methods that the troll known as Tarantula uses in his arguements; they come across as very angry and vengeful. Cain, even though he does disagree with Ragewind and myself on some points, still does so with an attitude of fairness and respect. So until further notice, Tarantula is on /ignore.

That'll teach him!

I am not so sure... Trolls never learn they just live under bridges.

Guys, it's fine and dandy to disagree, to use the ignore feature, etc., but please refrain from making announcements and calling people out. It could be seen as baiting, especially if the person you call out starts retaliating and it all devolves into a flame war.

Thanks.

Manabolts won't work, because you do not have LOS to him. That is why a soundwave does work, is because it does not require LOS to anything except the center of the area that is affected.


Not even a specially built character. Any mage with at least 5 magic who knows soundwave and is willing to overcast it as high as he can. Also, as was shown, quite a few normal AV weaponry can still damage the vehicle too. Since the vehicle just has 20 armor 10 body (plus whatever spells you're willing to give it).

Or anyone with Edge and a lucky shot.

Which depends on GM allowance.

So does the mechatank.

If a GM's allowing that, then don't tell me that I need to deal with a conservative GM.

Whats so broken about the car? I see 20 armor (body 10, so book legal). 10 Personal armor. And a rigger cocoon. The "allowance" needed is letting him fit in the rigger cocoon with ballistic shields and so much armor on he can't move. Not the car.

You can't tell me most rigger characters doing the command vehicle thing haven't come up with something similar.

You're still relying on GM permission for his trick to work. And if he can presume GM permission, so can I.

What GM permission? We still hit at least 50 armor, without any worn armor by the character at all. So no, we aren't. In fact, the version I argued for, was only able to wear armor such that he was at a 1 in a physical attribute. So no, it does not require "special gm permission" anymore than just having the character OKed.

For the sake of arguement, assume you are allowed to make your called shot, sure, but you have to sucessfully penetrate the rigger cocoon barrier that is surrounding him to actually damage him.

The barrier qualifies as armor.

But calling a shot to avoid armor only negates armor he benefits from, it doesn't prevent the rules for shooting through a barrier from taking effect.

The problem is, shooting through a barrier only adds armor:

So, when you call a shot to bypass Armor, you also bypass Barriers as well. You still have the Blind Fire penalty to deal with; but since we're discussing a Longshot anyway, that doesn't matter at all.

Wrong. And you obviously don't want to apply this because its the very next paragraph.
SR4, 157, "If the weapon’s modified Damage Value does not exceed the
barrier’s Armor rating (modified by the weapon’s AP), then the
weapon is simply not strong enough to pierce the barrier, and the
attack automatically fails."
You reduce the characters armor to 0 for the shot. The barrier still has 20 armor. So, unless your shot does more DV than barrier armor - AP then it doesn't do damage, even if you bypassed the characters armor rating that the barrier added to.

Now, before you refute this, let me make sure I can explain it as clearly as possible. Best way I can think of is to use variables.
B = barrier armor. In this case b = 20.
C = characters armor. In this case, 50+.
You make a called shot, for a penalty of -C. You are unable to make this, without taking a longshot test. This sets C = 0 for your shot.
You take a longshot test. This still goes through the barrier, which is why the barrier added to the characters armor.
Shooting through a barrier says the DV has to beat armor - ap. B still equals 20, because you reduced C, not B.

Note that your quote references "Modified" armor values. Even though you didn't reduce the barrier's rating, you modified its armor to 0. Using your equasion:

B= Barrier's armor = 20
C= Character's armor = 50+
A= Total Armor rating = 70+
M= Modified Armor rating = 0

Wrong. You modify the characters armor, not the barriers. The 50+ was already the characters modified armor, as his actual armor is something in the 0-6 range. +20 vehicle armor + 10 personal armor + 20 barrier in the way + magical spells = 50+.
You even show that B is still 20. Which is what is compared for shooting through a barrier.

Not to mention,
SR4, 150, Called shot options "Target an area not protected by armor. The attacking character receives a negative dice pool modifier equal to the target’s armor (better armor is more difficult to bypass). If the attack hits, the target’s armor is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body."

So, it even is explicitly only ignored for the damage resistance test. Thus, when you check to see if it makes it past the barrier, no matter what, it has its full armor value, as that isn't the damage resistance test.

But the part you cite is *part* of the damage resistance test. The modified armor is 0, so it bypasses it.

No, it isn't. Shooting through a barrier is not part of the damage resistance test. It is its own check done, when you shoot through the barrier. Not enough damage, no damage resistance test.

Also, you still are only modifying your target's armor. Not the barriers. The barrier still has 20 armor.

You add the barrier's Armor to the target's. So, it does stack, and gets bypassed as a stack.

You're also assuming I'm not firing a weapon with a base power of 10 or greater.

You do add the barriers to the targets yes. But you only bypass the targets. And when checking to see if an attack passes through the barrier, you check against the barriers armor, not the targets.

You mean 20? Or something with a power that is greater than 20-its ap?

The barrier's *modifed* armor. Which, we have established, is zero.

And you're right. I was thinking about the Structure rating, and got confused. Nevertheless, weapon choice does not matter for the longshot test. We don't need skill in the weapon to default, and the defaulting penalty is just one more to add to the longshot pile.

No, we have established that the targets modified armor is 0. The barrier is not the target, the character is. Thus, the barrier retains its full armor value for purposes of shooting through barriers.

Weapon choice does matter, as you have to be able to break through the barrier.

The barrier is considered to be part of the target's modified armor, which is reduced to zero. Thus, a toothpick fired from a rubber band can now get through.

Just use Manaball?

Manaball requires, as does every Direct Combat spell, actual LOS to each and every target in the Area of Effect. Indirect Combat spells do not have this requirement.

You are incorrect. Lets break it down differently for you.

A = modified armor that will be checked for damage resitance test.
C = worn armor by the character
B = armor rating of barrier
V = vehicle armor rating
P = passenger armor rating

Now, typically, A = C+B+V+P.
You do a called shot, that makes A = 0.

B still is 20. V still is 20, and P still is 10. Even C is still 6 or whatever. Only A is modified to be 0, at the time of the damage resistance test. Which happens after you check to see if it goes through the barrier.

For A = 0, C + B + V + P must equal 0 as well. Since you can't have negative armor, the only way CBVP can equal zero is if all of them equal zero.

No. The rules say, A = 0. Think of variables.
Initially and normally, A = C+B+V+P.
You do a called shot, that sets A = 0.
C B V and P do not need to change their values. Because A is no longer equal to them.