No, I have the book in hardcopy. But, I figure I can post 2 statblocks from it:

More GM questions:

If I use the Dual Gear upgrade (Scum & Villainy pg. 41) to build a blaster into my bracer computer (or really, any gear that's worn on my arms), am I considered to always be wielding the blaster whenever I have a hand free to use it, and if so, should I also increase the blaster's cost by 10% (as if it were a Quick Draw weapon)?

When using a Dual Geared item, is it a free action or a swift action to switch from using one of the component items to the other?

Can clothing which provides bonuses be modded as if it were armor for bonuses it provides? For example, can a flight suit be modded with the Tech Specialist feat to increase its bonus to Fortitude defense?

my friend Michael Morrison, who is going to be leaving at the end of july, wanted to play in the star wars game while he is still here, would that be fine?

1. Yeah, but it would cost the difference between the used cost and the new cost.

2. I think they mean fighters docked in clamps, not hanger space.



1. Yeah, consider it a quick draw weapon, as you still have to move your hand over and pop out the trigger.

2. I'll call it a swift action.

3. It has to give a bonus before it can be increased.



As long as he doesn't make Zack or Reiko want to stab him.

Cool, I think you gave pretty much all the answers I wanted/expected.


Can we get his share of the group ship before he gets stabbed?

Speaking of the ship... if there is interest in significant modifications, I'll take the Starship Designer feat at character creation. But, that would only be needed if we're going to be installing systems and upgrading them.

Oh, another question: Are you allowing Verpine weapons (KOTOR campaign book pg. 78), and if so, would it be possible to start with that technology (whether available for purchase or construction, I'm not picky)?

Yeah, but at the current time, unless you are a Verpine, they count as Rare.

So... would I have to pay something to get the appropriate schematics with which to incorporate the technology into my blaster?

tom, would you let me take the imperial knight prestige class, modifying the fluff to not only be roan fel that they must protect, but for high level leaders of large force using communities? If so then would it be plausible for me to take it, or would i have to leave the group? The Imperial Knight class is the best force prestige class to represent a jensaarai defender.

KOTOR era, rember. Also, I have been reading up on the Jensaarai. You do realize they are Sith who haven't completely fallen, right?

New Darkside rules. What do you guys think?

Strike the section

The Temptation of the Dark Side;

The Dark side in Star wars is depicted as both alluring and powerful at first, but with ever increasing cost. To Represent this, the Dark side of the Force is a pile of red D6s in the middle of the table, free for anyone to draw upon, in the same way a player spends force points, with a few exceptions. The dark side can be drawn upon for any number of dice, up to your character level, and all of them add. This can be spent in addition to a regular Force point. Each of these dice add one Dark Side point to the character. Dark side points can also be spent as if they were force points for things requiring it. Three Dark side points can be spent to activate abilities as if you had spent a Destiny point/

Drawing on the dark side is not without it's drawbacks, however. The dark side causes madness, and eventual physical rot to the body. This dark side rot reduces the Character's Wisdom by the number of Dark side points he has acquired, his Constitution is reduced by half that amount. This rot can reduced with the Embrace the Dark side feat.

Dark side points can also be earned with behavior, but this tends to only for doing evil for evils sake. Eg: Using the force to tear and girl's kitten down from a tree, and electrocuting it with force lighting right before her eyes.

There are some behaviors that earn DSP regardless of weather the intent is good or evil. Using the force to kill is a rage, for example, an act that will earn a dark side point.

Basically reduce what you need to do to earn a dark side point down by a degree.

However, redemption from the dark side isn't as easy as the core book makes it out be. Removing a DSP requires 1 hour of mediation, and a successful wisdom check (DC 5+# of DSP). Thus the more a character has fallen to the dark side, the harder it is to redeem themselves. A Force point it spent regardless if the the Wisdom check succeeds or fails.

New Feat:

Embrace the Dark side
Your character has begone the decent into the dark side, and has embraced it's power, at a cost.
Effect: Half the penalty the character takes from his acquired DSP. Half the number of Force points this character revives on level-up of this and every subsequent level.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. It's effects stack. This can be taken a bonus feat by anyone with at least 5 Dark side points.

In a word?

No Fucking Way

Okay, that's three words.

Some of it I like, the pile of red dice that costs you darkside points is good, having some actual effects from increased darkside score that aren't completely roleplay dependent is also good. Making it less trivial to reduce your dark side score...

...eh, that can work...

...here's the thing though:

The point at which you lose control of your character is determined by your Wisdom Score. Having dark side points reduce this means it takes half as many to NO LONGER BE ABLE TO PLAY THAT CHARACTER.

Bad.

It also means that sith no longer have a wisdom score, and are therefore pwned by any effect that targets Will defense. But hey, if you want us to be able to boss Exar Kun around with +5 persuasion rolls...

Seriously though. You know I was intending to play a grey jedi, these new restrictions are tantamount to directly banning my character concept, and I've spent a lot of time on it.

Oh, and the number of force powers you get are determined by Wisdom, last time I checked Sith weren't lacking in power...

Considering that it's ridiculously easy to earn dark side points in this game anyway, and that going darkside is equivalent to the death of the character, it really doesn't need to be made any harder to stay in the light. It's not like we're aiming for a campaign of Paladins here.

[Edit]

Also, requiring a feat to make darkside users functional is a similarly bad idea. This is 3.5 territory here--you don't get enough feats as it is. Besides, it explicitly points out in the books that the KOTOR period more than any other is a time of varied force traditions with a whole range of takes on the light/dark thing. It's probably the single most balanced point in the galaxy's history, force wise. They suggest making the dark side harder to resist in periods where the Sith are ascendant--not when they've just had their tails beaten back to Korriban.

[edit 2]

Gone over the stats of the ships Poit-Narf posted. The weapon systems section for the Citadel-Class Cruiser seems to be incomplete, there's an "or" with nothing after it. As it stands, that does very much look like the best choice. It's got better stats than the 578-R or the Dynamic-Class Freighter--although the cost is rather steep.

I just wonder whether it would be cheaper to upgrade the Freighter to a comparable level? Granted, we won't be able to make as many total modifications, but right now I think we should focus on having something functional enough that we can survive to work on it in the future--or sell it for a better model.

I ended up taking 3 levels of Noble instead of the one I was planning on, so I'm going to have 15,000 credits rolling in each time we level up. That gives us a lot of resources to work with if we want to trade up for a better ship later, and meanwhile I think we'd be better off slapping 80k worth of upgrades on the freighter (Or buying it new and sticking to 30k worth) than trying to scrounge the extra 10k for an unmodified cruiser. (This is assuming 30k from me and 10k from all the other players, including the new guy.)

Besides, it might pay to be unassuming at first. Once we've become paragons of awesome, then we can get the battle-ready "holy-fuck-did-you-see-that-don't-mess-with-those-guys" ship. Otherwise it's like painting a target every time we enter a starsystem.

[Edit 3]

Actually, just having the pile of darkside dice would be enough. The players are going to be making willpower rolls to resist using them constantly. Besides, you know how we play--10 bucks says we're all at Darkside 5 or more by June--assuming you enforce the rules about using force powers to harm living creatures and resorting to violence without pursuing other options.

Personally, I like the original idea that was mentioned when I was in town...

Getting dark side points through actions is slightly more lenient than as written, but there's that nice pile of dice in the middle of the table to tempt you to the dark side.

i said modifying the fluff, now i did just say modifying for who it applies too, but i was assuming you understood that this meant it could be applied to people in the kotor era. I realize that, but that's not exactly it, and that doesn't matter 'cause you said i was going to be playing with the same rules as a jensaarai, but with different fluff. Which could mean they weren't confused into believing that sith was the light side while jedi were the dark, but more they knowingly walk the line between dark and light to accomplish their goals.

Oh, by the way, somebody left a notepad in the conference room last friday--looks like it has a bunch of equations on it.

Anyway, yeah, the RAW for gaining and getting rid of darkside points is actually pretty harsh. It's really easy to get them, and getting rid of them takes force points, which are a per-level limited resource. If you really want to make it harder, throw in the pile 'o red dice. Bear in mind that the warping of mind and body experienced by dark-side users generally seems to happen after they fall completely. It might work to make a feat that gives you added effect when using the dark side at the expense of your health. Maybe make it so you can take dark side dice over your level, but for each one you move down the condition monitor and take permanent penalties to social rolls. That would model what happened with Palpatine in episode III pretty well: He dipped in too far and his body paid the price.

I'd be all for willpower rolls to resist giving in to the dark side a la addiction rules, as long as it wasn't too harsh, but I intend to roleplay that anyway...

[Edit 2]

So for the new backstory, I'll have to run it by Dark Talon, but I was thinking something like this:

[Talon] (don't know his character's name yet) and I grew up in the Republic, the sons of a Nagai explorer who somehow found his/her way into the system and a minor human noble. (There's a cannon example of this happening, so Nagai/Human interbreeding *is* possible)

At an early age, we're taken to a Jedi temple to begin training. Since I'm older, I end up being assigned a master first, and am out following him while [Talon] is still at the temple. Near the end of the Great Sith War, my master is sent to Onderon, taking me with him. Eventually he is killed, forcing me to survive on my own in the wilderness. I use what I know of the force to conceal my presence, and later disguise myself as part of the Mandalorian forces, waiting for an opportunity to escape.

In the process, I learn a lot about the Mandalorian way of life, and about the Sith who currently control them. I start finding I associate more with their philosophies than those of the Jedi, but still find something lacking in all three cases. This is the start of my shift towards the belief that the Sith philosophy is actually correct--but that the Sith themselves have lost control and no longer represent the beliefs they espouse. (There a difference between using anger to set yourself free, and being consumed and enslaved by it.)

Disillusioned, I slip away during their retreat to the outer rim, and make my way back inwards. I'm thinking that at this point I could have met up with Poit-Narf's character, since it seems he's going to be our mechanic and starship-tinkerer.

I make contact with our (Dark Talon's and mine) home system, and use some of our family's money to purchase an old starship. (Or maybe a new one, if we go with the freighter)

Already disillusioned with the Jedi, I take an especially dim view of the conservative movement now sweeping though the order, and resolved to find my little brother and pull him out of that mess.

Dunno what our group's motivations are going to be, mostly I'll just be along for the ride, hoping to find an answer to the ideological conflict I'm going through while following the Mandalorian ideal that the next battle is just over the horizon. I'll start picking up my Jedi training from [Dark Talon], since my training was cut short and at this point he'll be much further along than me, and generally act as spare coinpurse/can-of-whoopass for the group, with the occasional bit of negotiating on the side.

So, are you suggesting something like this, Rad?

Embrace the Dark Side
Prerequisite: 10 or more dark side points
Effect: You do not fall to the dark side when you reach your Wisdom score in dark side points. However, for each dark side point you have beyond your Wisdom score, you get a -1 penalty to Charisma (though you still use your original Charisma modifier for using the Force). You also get a Constitution penalty equal to half your Charisma penalty. If your modified Charisma score reaches 0, you fall to the dark side (instead of falling comatose).

i remember something about having to look somewhat human, am i confusing memories, because i think i will be a Neti if i can.
Edit: but i will have to change my tradition unless armor can somehow change size by paying extra, which i would be very glad to do

interstellar transport, we need to buy this as our ship

Nah, I like the mechanic of going batshit-Sith-crazy once your darkside points match your wisdom. What I'm thinking of is more of a way to over-channel dark energy at the expense of your body, like when Palpatine screams "Unlimited Power" and blasts Windu through a *ahem* window with force lightning, and gets all leprous-looking in the process--or as a lesser example, when Anakin's eyes start to change color on Mustafar. Basically it's a penalty for drawing too deeply on the dark side.

Something like this:

Dark Surge
Prerequisite: 10 or more dark side points
Effect: The maximum number of Darkside dice you can use increases by 1. If you use more dice than you have levels, or your darkside scrore equals your wisdom, you move one persistent step down the condition track, and take a permanent -1 modifier to Deception and Persuasion checks (and any other abilities or effects that list those skills as prerequisites) for each die used over your normal limit. This feat can be taken up to five times, it's effects stack.

If you fall unconscious while using this feat, your Darkside score automatically becomes equal to your wisdom score, if it is not already.

-------

Oh, and we definitely need to change it so the maximum number of darkside dice you can use is equal to your level or your (Wisdom - Darkside Score), whichever is less. Otherwise Sith will be adding their level in dice to everything with no repercussions.



"in the decades before the Clone Wars"

The Clone Wars are several thousand years away. Also, it's stats are based on expert crew, zeroing that out, it's not nearly as impressive.

i didn't really read the fluff i was more like, "Sweet 50 passengers large array of weapons and only 45k used!"

Not to mention its distinct lack of customizability (is that a word?).

By the way, here's another ship I noticed that might suit us...



Downsides: Unmodified, it's really slow - we'll have to fix that. But, upgrading from 1 square to 3 is barely more expansive than upgrading from 2 to 3. And, like most of the ships we're looking at, its base shield generator is crap.

Upsides: It has a lot of hit points, and a fair amount of emplacement points & cargo space. And, it's pretty well armed, especially for its cost. Better than that, though, is the ship's reputation.

It's known for being a slow ship, so upgrading the engines could give our enemies a nice surprise. And, because of the ship's reputation for being slow, it's not considered to be dangerous. It's considered to be too slow to do anything illegal with. In fact, Republic inspectors know the ship's reputation, and because of it, don't really care about its heavy armament. Now, I dunno about you, but I think we can do a lot with that.

everything on saga-edition.com is canon right? and for making a droid would the 32 point buy be reduced because i have no con, or would con just be counted as though you already spent a certain amount of points in it? i was thinking of making an iron knight with the rules for shards on saga.
Edit: michael said he can't actually join the game

That's why I ran it past you guys. I was planning on dropping the loose control of character when DSP = Wisdom, and when your Wisdom bottemed out, you got batshit sith crazy.

But you are right about it being extreme. Any other Ideas?

Quick edit: maybe a reduction in the number of Force points you get each level equal to number of Darkside points, and Each level of Sith (Blank) or Darkside Talent you have reduces the penalty by 1. Makes it harder to redeem yourself the more DSP you get, and doesn't fuck anyone over. Unless you have more than 5+1/2 level DSP, in which case you enter a self destructive cycle then ends with you bat-sith crazy.

Yeah droids only get 28 points.

That should be an official game term.

Andrew Suggests a Citadel-Class Cruiser.

Also, Since Zeck and Andrew haven't mentioned there final character.

A Mandalorian martial Artist, and a Kushiban Jedi. Place bets on which is which.

One problem--it requires a crew of 12 to fly it! (Unless that's a typo)

There's only going to be 9 of us, so that wouldn't work so well. Unless...

...hmm, I need to check the followers section. Maybe I could be a mercenary/pirate captain instead of just a guy with a ship looking for answers. Though I hesitate to trust NPC crewmembers, and we probably wont have the cash for droids.

[edit] Crap! I've gotta run back home to get the power cord for my laptop, so I won't be in until about 5:20. My phone's still down too, so don't try to call me.

i was going to be ending up with the officer class for the character i switched too. A Jedi/Noble Shard.
Edit: you can always just buy droid crew

Oh, the crew isn't a problem. Upgrading a ship with slave circuits reduces the crew requirement by 1/3. Advanced slave circuits reduce the crew requirement by 2/3.

Note: I did not mess with the skills, initiative, or attack modifiers of the statblock. We all use our own skill modifiers, except for the pilot. The pilot uses the ship's dex modifier (+2) and size modifier (-10) on all Pilot & Initiative checks.

Another note: Attack rolls made using the ship's weapons use the ship's Intelligence modifier (+2) in place of the gunner's Dexterity modifier. Also remember that all starship weapons are heavy weapons, so most of us will be taking a -5 nonproficiency penalty.

Woot. Now we just need to look up what "Retcon" is in Mando'a (probably "Boom")

Speaking of names, finally came up with one: Kray Harmon

Also, I'm definitely taking the force grip ability instead of move obje--oh wait--that means I have to change the talents I'm taking, as I was going to go with Telekinetic Savant and Telekinetic Prodigy to add in a few extra force powers...

Heh, guess this means I can take Dark Deception and Taint of the Dark Side after all--assuming I ever get to that level. XP

Seriously, I was expecting us to cap at about level 12 if we leveled every other session, but at this rate, we'll need hordes and hordes of low-level enemies to make that kind of exp-gain viable...

>imagines tearing through hordes and hordes of low-level enemies<

>grins<

Bring 'em on!

[edit] Wait, swapping Move Object for Force Grip means I won't be able to fly anymore...

...also, I just checked the errata, and targets larger than medium size get a bonus to their fort defense against force grip. What this means is that A) It doesn't do any more damage than move object and B) it is more likely to fail against large targets than Move Object

Seriously, the difficulty increase is the same for Large and Huge targets (+5 and +10, respectively) but for Gargatuan targets it's 5 more and for colossal it's 30 more. Not to mention that the increase with force grip is actually a bonus to the target's defense, while move object just increases the skill check DC. I suppose it's good to be able to do half damage even on a failed check, but I'm not sure it's worth the loss of utility...

...then again, I'd need a natural 20 to hurl starships at this point anyway (DC 35 for Colossal targets), so I guess I'll stick with force grip. Being able to reliably do the same damage as a blaster on a failed roll isn't so bad.

[edit 2]

Ah, another thing: Force Grip caps at DC 25 with 6d6 damage, Move Object caps at DC 35 with 10d6--I think this was what decided me on Move Object in the first place. Plus, with move object I can potentially damage two targets by slamming one into the other. Sucks that you have to take a talent to make area attacks with large objects though--seems like that would just be a natural result of dropping a starship on someone.

Player: "I use move object to throw a 12x12 square freighter at the squad of imperial stormtroopers."
GM: "It lands balanced on one corner, in defiance of all logic and natural laws, damaging only one of them."
Player: "WTF HAX?!"

Anyway, if Matsci is willing to extend the table to match the move object power, I'll go ahead and take force grip--otherwise I'll probably stick with my 10d6 maximum damage, thank you.

[edit 3] Finally remembered what I originally meant to ask in this post: Do the listed weights for advanced weapons include the power cell/pack? (or ammunition, in the case of slugthrowers)

Also, do you need to buy the power pack separately or just the spares?

[edit 4] Woot! Finally thought of a Sith name that hasn't been taken and doesn't suck ton-ton balls!

Darth Malice

Google tells me some jackovasaur over at the fannon wiki already thought of it, but screw them, they're not playing at our table.

So yeah, dibs on the name, if and when I go darkside--which may be sooner than I thought since the Sith Apprentice class has fewer prereqs than Jedi Knight. It'd kinda suck to lose all the class features once [Talon] (what's your character's first name again?) turns me back though, so maybe I'll hold it off till the end of the campaign, like I planned.

Also, unless I tweak the build some more I will be horrible, horrible doom once I hit level 9, so watch for it.

Some Handy Links


Full Starship sheets You guys should fill this out to have a clear reference to what you are all doing in the ship.

Better Character and Starship sheets Useful, but not necessary.

Index of Starwars errata

Map of a Gozanti Cruiser It doesn't show the lowest level, which is more of the same, but with more cargo bay.

Thanks for the links, they'll come in pretty handy.

So, to condense my earlier sleep-deprived ramblings:

> Probably going to take Force Grip instead of move object due to the errata.

> Need to know whether the weight and cost of the power cell is included in the stats for advanced weapons.

Also, a couple questions:

1) Tom, if you're having trouble building encounters because our group's too large, have you considered building an encounter for half the group (ie: 4 level 4 characters) and then just throwing two of those at us? Might be worth a try to see how it works.

2) On the whole, are we more likely to face a few enemies at once, or larger groups? With the limited number of feats, you kind of have to commit yourself to a certain attack style. I was going to take whirlwind attack, but if all of our encounters are going to be with only one or two strong enemies like they were last time it's not going to be very useful. I don't want to waste a feat slot on something I'm never going to use, so if you could give me an idea that would be really helpful. I can always go with something like Powerful Charge that works better on single enemies if that's going to be the norm.

Heh, this really is one of those games where you have to completely plan your character out ahead of time...

Oh, one last thing: I'm going to go ahead and let >brain malfunction, name not found< keep the majority share of the ship. It actually makes more sense if he was buying a ship for his philanthropic "Unite Stuff" mission, and we all just bought in as crew members--each for our own reasons.

No, Weapons are emnty at purchas

More likely to face large groups.

That's what I figured, and...



Woot.

Interesting note, however. The Darth term hasn't come into use yet. Darth Reven and Darth Malak. Exar Kun and Ulic Quel Droma were Dark lords of the Sith, but didn't have any Darth Title. They were just that Bad-ass.

Also Retcon'ga is Mandel'o for Possible Starfighter.

I cant wait for the Jedi academy training manual book.

That is fucking awesome.

"Our ship? It's the Retcon'ga, we call it 'Retcon' for short..."

Thought there were a couple Darths in there somewhere by this point, but maybe I'll forgo the title anyway. The history behind it doesn't really fit my character. It's more that I've been looking for a decent, unused Sith title for ever, and am just stoked to finally have found a good one.

Crap, I may have to hit the hardware store and pick up some plumbing fixtures and leds to build a custom lightsaber out of now. If only I knew more about ray-tracing, I could make one with an actual holographic blade.

Of course, if I could get my hands on some superconductors and the right manufacturing equipment...

>evil grin<

[edit] Added quote for clarification, though >this< is also awesome.

[edit 2] Ah, quick rules question, I keep forgetting: If you're wielding a two handed weapon (like my long-handled lightsaber) and also wielding a weapon via the Telekinetic Combat power, can you use a full attack action to strike with both weapons? If so, would the Double Weapon Mastery feat help with this? It says you are counted as wielding the weapon being used with Telekinetic Combat, and I believe it also says that feats which modify your attack with a weapon (such as mighty swing) don't work, but this seems to be a bit of a grey area.

[edit 3] Also, is Whirlwind Attack considered a full attack? It's an attack, and it says it takes a full-round action, but they conveniently don't call it a full-attack, which makes me wonder if it would count as such...

That one, I actually know the answer to. Whirlwind Attack is specifically not a full attack. One nice thing about Saga Edition is that, for any given action (in this case, a full attack), that action's description lists every feat in the core book that modifies the action. If you look at the full attack entry on pg. 154 of the core book, Whirlwind Attack isn't listed.

But really, that makes sense. The point of Whirlwind Attack is to give up the ability to focus multiple attacks on one target in order to attack multiple targets (well, and to deal half damage on a miss).

But you don't get iterative attacks in saga without sinking a huge amount of feats into the Double Attack and/or Dual Weapon mastery chains.

Which is why Whirlwind Attack is just plain better in Saga compared to 3.5. I mean, just the ability to do half damage on a miss makes it worthwhile. Being able to do that to every enemy in your reach is pretty damn good.

Especially since, as far as I can tell, reach weapons in Saga don't suffer from the "donut effect" they had in 3.5.

You're also forgetting, Rad, that while the force grip damage table doesn't go as high as Move Object, you can SUSTAIN grip. So you can do that 6d6 damage for multiple rounds. AND the target can only take a swift action (Eg choke ) while move object does none of those.

and the fact that choking someone to death is so much more evil then throwing them.

In the Jedi Knight games, I always liked using force choke to slam people into walls...

I liked force jumping above a bunch of people, then force pulling them into the sky.

Ah, good times.

6 again I'm assuming?

Shit, sorry guys: I totally spaced about the game today. I'm both house-sitting for my business partner and going on a date tonight, so there's no way I can make it.

Rather than mysteriously teleport mid-battle, I scanned my character sheet and uploaded it to my photobucket account, so andrew or someone can take over for me tonight. It's pretty straightforward:

Enemy at a distance: Force Grip
Enemy close by: Attack with lightsaber
Enemy within 2-6 squares: Charge

Save the Dark Rage power for emergencies
Use Negate Energy if hit by a blaster bolt or lightsaber

Might want to wait until the second time you're hit, and spend a force point to heal the damage you negate. Best done with lighsabers as you're almost guaranteed to succeed. (You roll Use the Force against the damage of the attack) In a pinch, just use this power, spend a force point, and grab the blade of Kray's own lightsaber for a quick 2d8 heal.

Oh yeah, and use Search Your Feelings constantly.

The Tehk'la Blade and Heavy Sonic Pistol are mainly there as backups. The sonic pistol's shots can't be deflected by lightsabers, so it's pretty handy if you run out of force-choke. Also the utility belt is still fully stocked, check the equipment page of the main book to see what all it has in it. (I know it has a spare power pack for the pistol, grappling hook, and a commlink.)

Also note that I've got the Force Intuition talent, so you use Use the Force checks instead of Initiative checks.

See ya' next week!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Rei...eruo/Sheet1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Rei...eruo/Sheet2.jpg

Force Intuition is the wrong one... it says its only for piloting a starship... Curse you! Where is the one for initiative?