Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: ATTN WRITERS: Why have no big NPCs died?
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3
The Jake
Shadowrun has sofar spanned from 2050 to 2070 and onwards.

We have so many well known, well established NPCs which never seem to die. I can think of only two major NPCs of the top of my head that have: Inazo Aneki and Dunkelzahn.

Right now, we have Richard Villiers, Damien Knight and Fastjack who are human and MUST be around their 70s. Even with their extensive knowledge and backgrounds, runners like Smiling Bandit or professionals like KAM *must* be getting on. Scarier still is the fact that Man-Of-Many-Names is STILL posting and he seemed ancient to me back when I first read about him in Universal Brotherhood. At least Michael Sutherland moved on to become Director of Matrix Security for Wuxing. That was an interesting development (even though it doesn't fit his character at all).

Even with some of these people being able to afford Leonization out the yin-yang, I presume there must be limitations (that have never been discussed in Augmentation...) and not all of them can afford it. Sure runners have dropped in and out of the scene over the years but it's not the same as someone actually buying the farm. Of all the runners that could probably afford Leonization, the only one I can think of who could afford it regularly would be Fastjack.

What are the real limitations of human age in Shadowrun? Some of these people HAVE to be getting on and some of them have to either be looking to retire or die from natural causes (not just assassination or self-sacrifice like Dunkie). Is this ever going to be explored in future supplements? I'd like to see a 2070 equivalent of Prime Runners or something but I realise that this product would be of limited value to some groups.

Cheers,

- J.
TheOOB
Your forgot captain chaos.

Anyways, I think you overestimate the effects of aging in the sixth world. Truth is, as long as you don't get any incurable diseases and you are reasonably healthy(and have access to good medical technology), there is no reason you can't live past 100 and still be somewhat active(you won't be running however). Besides leonization returns someone to the prime of their life(25 if I'm not mistaken), assuming you get the treatment at age 70, you are going to be 115 before you reach the physical age of 70 again, not to shabby. With cutting edge genetics and med tec, along with a strong body, a human might even be able to hit 200 years, which means some of these old guard characters have quite some time before surrendering to father time.

Besides, if we assume that FastJack is pretty much the oldest character(a few exceptions, but true in most cases), then that means that all the characters are younger then 72 years, hell, most the prominate runners in 2050 would be between 40 and 50 years old. Thats getting on in the years but still young enough to be plenty active and dangerous with good health and good med tec.
The Jake
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Dec 17 2008, 06:43 AM) *
Your forgot captain chaos.

Anyways, I think you overestimate the effects of aging in the sixth world. Truth is, as long as you don't get any incurable diseases and you are reasonably healthy(and have access to good medical technology), there is no reason you can't live past 100 and still be somewhat active(you won't be running however). Besides leonization returns someone to the prime of their life(25 if I'm not mistaken), assuming you get the treatment at age 70, you are going to be 115 before you reach the physical age of 70 again, not to shabby. With cutting edge genetics and med tec, along with a strong body, a human might even be able to hit 200 years, which means some of these old guard characters have quite some time before surrendering to father time.

Besides, if we assume that FastJack is pretty much the oldest character(a few exceptions, but true in most cases), then that means that all the characters are younger then 72 years, hell, most the prominate runners in 2050 would be between 40 and 50 years old. Thats getting on in the years but still young enough to be plenty active and dangerous with good health and good med tec.


No I didn't. nyahnyah.gif Could you truly call Cpt. Chaos dead? Even if you do, he wasn't around from the 1st Edition IIRC (was in 2nd edition - earliest book I can remember with him in it was FoF). Fastjack was (as was Villiers, Aneki, etc).

Granted genetic engineering (not even Leonization) can obviously extend someone's lifespan but the fact that this wasn't touched on in Augmentation really leaves us to guess the limitations. Back when Shadowtech was released Leonization was new and was so ridiculuously expensive that you'd almost never encounter it. Now there are so many cheaper alternatives to reduce/slow down/prevent aging that we really have to stop and ask "what are the limits?".

Taking medicine out of the picture, surely there are stories of runners who died of old age. Orks in particular have a VERY short lifespan and I'm sure that at least a few ork runners would have succumbed to old age. What about voluntary retirement? Chromed Accountant hinted at having enough to retire (I distinctly remember one book he said he had enough for a tropical island). He's been around since Corporate Shadowfiles. What about involuntary retirement? Runs gone wrong? Assassinations? Hunted? Things from Other Planes™?

What about the Immortal Elves? We know Lofwyr got to Leonardo but what happened since? Was he killed? We know for a fact Lofwyr destroyed his lab but what happened to the man? Will this be touched on in later books?

I think you get my point. Sooner or later these people will be retiring - whether they want to or not. My question is, will this be touched on in later supplements? Everyone feels the passage of time sooner or later. Even immortals aren't immune to it - that much we all know for certain.

- J.
Demonseed Elite
Well, to be completely honest, most of the time these characters aren't killed because the writers like them and because they make great plot devices. When they are killed, it's because their death is either the catalyst for a great story (Dunkelzahn) or the conclusion of one (Inazo Aneki). Sure, they could just die for no story reason whatsoever, but writers usually regret doing that.

Besides, if you kill off legendary characters left and right, they don't become legendary. Knight, Villiers, Fastjack, part of their legend is that they've been around in Shadowrun so long.
Blacken
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 17 2008, 04:36 AM) *
Taking medicine out of the picture, surely there are stories of runners who died of old age. Orks in particular have a VERY short lifespan and I'm sure that at least a few ork runners would have succumbed to old age.
I think you mean trolls on this one. Orks might have a slightly shorter lifespan than humans, but it seems to me that it wouldn't be that much shorter if not for shitty living conditions.
Fortune
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Dec 17 2008, 05:43 PM) *
Besides, if we assume that FastJack is pretty much the oldest character(a few exceptions, but true in most cases)


I think Dodger is a little older than Fastjack.

Others that have kicked the bucket include Glasgian Oakforest, Matador, and Hatchetman.

Oh, and Capt. Chaos has most definitely been around since the first edition.
Malachi
QUOTE (Blacken @ Dec 17 2008, 10:18 AM) *
I think you mean trolls on this one. Orks might have a slightly shorter lifespan than humans, but it seems to me that it wouldn't be that much shorter if not for shitty living conditions.

No, Ork is correct. They have a life expectancy around 40-60 years.
Arcblood
First: orks lifespan is basicaly what humans were in the dark ages. Add medicine and high quality food and they should live to about 70

Two: from my personal experience in genetics the only organ that stops us from living forever is our brain. Over time it will slowly shut down the production of new cells. Given the games answer that immortality is in the genes of elves. All these prime names will be around for another 50 years atleast and Fastjack will be a monster in the net until his brain goes to mush. FastJack like a few of my personal super npc's has the net by the balls cause they know the base codes it was built on by instinct.

Three: howmany of these prime players are really natural humans and not drakes, erlders. spirits or dragons
Stahlseele
Dodger does not count.
He's an Elf, immoral Spike-Baby . . wonder how he's dealing with the change from wired to wireless matrix and having to get rid of his deck and use a comlink?
i am right now imagining dodger with reading glasses on his nose, peering over the rims at the comlink trying to figure out how to change the ring tone like an old man is probably going to do today with a cellphone ^^
Elves in general do not count, because they simply do not die from natural causes . . well, if you leave out darvinism with stupidity/curiosity as natural cause of death . .

addendum: do you WANT them to die?
if so, better try to contact one of the autors to write in a contract on a bounty on their heads . .
MYST1C
QUOTE (Arcblood @ Dec 17 2008, 05:19 PM) *
First: orks lifespan is basicaly what humans were in the dark ages. Add medicine and high quality food and they should live to about 70

It's one of the old-but-unanswered questions:
  • Do orks have a low life expectancy because most orks live in poor conditions, with high infant mortality and poor medical facilities? (Environmental/social cause)
  • Do orks have a low life expectancy because they actually age faster than other (meta)humans, meaning an ork aged 35-40 resembles a human aged 70? (Genetic cause)

Throughout the editions there's never been a definitive answer (AFAIK) but fluff indicates the latter.
Plus, in SR's "sister" game, Earthdawn, orks also have a shorter lifespan than other namegivers. Their very culture is based on getting famous to make one's name immortal as life is so short...
Drogos
I thought the Fluff also had Orks maturing faster. Their gestation period was also less than 9 mos. I've always been of the mind that they died younger due to a combination of the two factors of environment and genetics.
Method
QUOTE (Arcblood @ Dec 17 2008, 08:19 AM) *
from my personal experience in genetics the only organ that stops us from living forever is our brain.


Huh? What kind of genetics experience is that? I'm pretty sure that heart disease is still the big numero uno when it comes to mortality.


The Jake
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Dec 17 2008, 02:05 PM) *
Well, to be completely honest, most of the time these characters aren't killed because the writers like them and because they make great plot devices. When they are killed, it's because their death is either the catalyst for a great story (Dunkelzahn) or the conclusion of one (Inazo Aneki). Sure, they could just die for no story reason whatsoever, but writers usually regret doing that.

Besides, if you kill off legendary characters left and right, they don't become legendary. Knight, Villiers, Fastjack, part of their legend is that they've been around in Shadowrun so long.


As well it should be. Dunkelzahn's death was a perfect example.

And to be fair, his death was a once in a lifetime event - otherwise it ceases to be special.

But the fact remains that even legends die.

What I'm trying to emphasize is that while these characters represent a great deus ex machina, for the most part at least they are not immortal, they do have plans to stop doing what they do at some stage and more needs to be done to recognise that rather than treat them as an immortal plot device that can be used/reused endlessly for the passage of time.

I read Synner said somewhere that she's planning on having the timeline advance each year. So does that mean we'll hit 2080 one day and Fastjack will still be around? Come on man...

Having said that, tell me the death or retirement of Fastjack wouldn't be on similar par to the death of The Big D? biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 17 2008, 04:36 PM) *
Dodger does not count.
He's an Elf, immoral Spike-Baby . . wonder how he's dealing with the change from wired to wireless matrix and having to get rid of his deck and use a comlink?
i am right now imagining dodger with reading glasses on his nose, peering over the rims at the comlink trying to figure out how to change the ring tone like an old man is probably going to do today with a cellphone ^^
Elves in general do not count, because they simply do not die from natural causes . . well, if you leave out darvinism with stupidity/curiosity as natural cause of death . .

addendum: do you WANT them to die?
if so, better try to contact one of the autors to write in a contract on a bounty on their heads . .


It's not that I want them to die per se. Its that I just don't think enough has been done to acknowledge the passage of time in game.

Having said that, elves I'm willing to cut some slack for given their longevity.

QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 17 2008, 02:19 PM) *
I think Dodger is a little older than Fastjack.

Others that have kicked the bucket include Glasgian Oakforest, Matador, and Hatchetman.

Oh, and Capt. Chaos has most definitely been around since the first edition.


News to me. Of those on the list I've never heard of them dying. They just seemed to disappear. Was their deaths covered in a book I'm not aware of?

- J.
Fortune
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 18 2008, 08:14 AM) *
I read Synner said somewhere that she's ...


Pssst. Synner's a guy. wink.gif


QUOTE
News to me. Of those on the list I've never heard of them dying. They just seemed to disappear. Was their deaths covered in a book I'm not aware of?


Al responses are to be considered to include the phrase 'If I recall correctly.

Glasgian was covered in SoNA.
Matador was dealt with in Target: Wastelands or one of the SotA books (I lean toward the latter).
Hatchetman is a given, and there are several references to his passing, but no actual details. Cyberzombies in the 2050's measured their lifespan in weeks.


QUOTE (Stahlseele)
Dodger does not count.
He's an Elf, immoral Spike-Baby . . wonder how he's dealing with the change from wired to wireless matrix and having to get rid of his deck and use a comlink?
i am right now imagining dodger with reading glasses on his nose, peering over the rims at the comlink trying to figure out how to change the ring tone like an old man is probably going to do today with a cellphone ^^
Elves in general do not count, because they simply do not die from natural causes . . well, if you leave out darvinism with stupidity/curiosity as natural cause of death .


Why shouldn't Dodger count? He isn't an Immortal Elf, just a Spike Baby. The point I responded to did not concern extended potential lifespans, but age since birth (oldest non-Immortal named character). Elves have no special advantage in this regard.
The Jake
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 17 2008, 11:19 PM) *
Pssst. Synner's a guy. wink.gif


Sorry. That WAS actually a typo.

QUOTE
Al responses are to be considered to include the phrase 'If I recall correctly.

Glasgian was covered in SoNA.
Matador was dealt with in Target: Wastelands or one of the SotA books (I lean toward the latter).
Hatchetman is a given, and there are several references to his passing, but no actual details. Cyberzombies in the 2050's measured their lifespan in weeks.


Will search SoNA and Wastelands. How did Matador die?
Hatchman I know became a cyberzombie. I don't think it was measured in "weeks" (remember the 'zombie in the Dragonheart trilogy? That reminds me - imagine how tough a free spirit using Hidden Life on a CYBERZOMBIE would be!! *shudder*). Augmentation all but states now that a cyberzombie is effectively immortal so long as they don't forget and keep undergoing their maintenance. So POTENTIALLY Hatchman could be immortal - unless it's directly been stated elsewhere he died.

QUOTE
Why shouldn't Dodger count? He isn't an Immortal Elf, just a Spike Baby. The point I responded to did not concern extended potential lifespans, but age since birth (oldest non-Immortal named character). Elves have no special advantage in this regard.


Elves have a lifespan of around 120 years IIRC. This would put Dodger around or approaching middle age, elven by elven standards as a spike baby.

- J.
Method
Fatima gets got in Ghost Cartels. She may not be a long standing legend, but she is some author's character...

Edit: oh and the blurb about Matador is on page 54 of SOTA:63. wink.gif

Edit2: and Don Bigio gets whacked in Runner's Havens...
Method
Screw it, Ill just add another post....

The other thing you need to consider is that when you introduce epic characters into your game world you don't know how people are going to integrate them into their individual campaigns. There are groups out there who like to keep things close to the canon, and if you go killing off NPCs that are central to their campaigns you are going to piss off a bunch of people. Not to imply that SR players like to bitch or anything... sarcastic.gif ohplease.gif

So if you want some people dead in your game, kill 'em yourself.

(NOTE TO DEPT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: The above comments are in reference to a table top roleplaying game only...) biggrin.gif
Hagga
QUOTE (Arcblood @ Dec 17 2008, 04:19 PM) *
First: orks lifespan is basicaly what humans were in the dark ages. Add medicine and high quality food and they should live to about 70

Two: from my personal experience in genetics the only organ that stops us from living forever is our brain. Over time it will slowly shut down the production of new cells. Given the games answer that immortality is in the genes of elves. All these prime names will be around for another 50 years atleast and Fastjack will be a monster in the net until his brain goes to mush. FastJack like a few of my personal super npc's has the net by the balls cause they know the base codes it was built on by instinct.

Three: howmany of these prime players are really natural humans and not drakes, erlders. spirits or dragons

Those few "prime players" who are just regular (meta)humans are possibly the ones you most need to watch for. Someone who does not have the "infinite potential" of magic but is still nasty enough to put dints into the big bad immortal's plans is someone to watch out for and fear.

Or possibly just hand them the "Granite testicles" award.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Blacken @ Dec 17 2008, 09:18 AM) *
I think you mean trolls on this one. Orks might have a slightly shorter lifespan than humans, but it seems to me that it wouldn't be that much shorter if not for shitty living conditions.


Yeah, and isn't the for orc prince of tir now the President. He's gotta be pushing close to 70.
Fortune
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 18 2008, 12:17 PM) *
How did Matador die?


Sniper round to the head.

QUOTE
Hatchman I know became a cyberzombie. I don't think it was measured in "weeks" (remember the 'zombie in the Dragonheart trilogy? That reminds me - imagine how tough a free spirit using Hidden Life on a CYBERZOMBIE would be!! *shudder*). Augmentation all but states now that a cyberzombie is effectively immortal so long as they don't forget and keep undergoing their maintenance. So POTENTIALLY Hatchman could be immortal - unless it's directly been stated elsewhere he died.


There's a big ass difference between Cyberzombies in the 2070s and their prototypes back in the 2050s. Even Burnout was quite a bit later than the Hatchetman incident. As I said though, there have been a couple of book references to his passing over the years.

QUOTE
Elves have a lifespan of around 120 years IIRC. This would put Dodger around or approaching middle age, elven by elven standards as a spike baby.


Still immaterial. Potential lifespan has no effect on who is actually the oldest non-immortal canon character.

QUOTE (Method @ Dec 18 2008, 12:30 PM) *
Fatima gets got in Ghost Cartels.


I was going to add her, but couldn't think of her name. I almost wrote 'fanatic arabian ork chick' but figured I would have to explain myself.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Drogos @ Dec 17 2008, 09:36 AM) *
I thought the Fluff also had Orks maturing faster. Their gestation period was also less than 9 mos. I've always been of the mind that they died younger due to a combination of the two factors of environment and genetics.

That was the 3rd ed fluff...it's been removed from 4th ed fluff, and I think everytime this gets brought up we all end up agreeing to disagree.

Personally, I think the idea of 10 year old orks trying to pick up chicks and knock them up is a little silly, and a 30 year old ork with a walker is kind of retarded. Dying young is one thing, aging faster is something else. Plus, the setting seems to describe metas, particularly orks, living in some really awful urban conditions, and when you add in drug/BTL use, you'd get a low enough lifespan as it is. Plus, the same 3rd ed book that listed the ork lifespan as 40ish listed Trolls at 50 and Humans at 60 (worldwide). So I naturally assumed it was due to living conditions.
Blacken
QUOTE
Plus, the same 3rd ed book that listed the ork lifespan as 40ish listed Trolls at 50 and Humans at 60 (worldwide).
See, that's what would strike me as being very much backwards. Trolls don't live in better conditions than orks, it seems, and they also have the added downside of being considerably larger (which would, I would think, cause more incidence of certain failure-related deaths; it would seem odd to me for heart musculature, for example, to scale perfectly).
Hagga
Elves can expect to see 400 years - the ones who were born at the Awakening, anyway. The last 100 years is spent going downhill. 120-125 is a figure released by TT (pre revolution) scientists to make the poor mud eating scumsucking orks feel better.
Morphius
Don't forget Lucien Cross. He may not have been as big as Damien Knight, but he still kicked it during the Second Crash.
The Jake
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Dec 18 2008, 06:27 AM) *
That was the 3rd ed fluff...it's been removed from 4th ed fluff, and I think everytime this gets brought up we all end up agreeing to disagree.

Personally, I think the idea of 10 year old orks trying to pick up chicks and knock them up is a little silly, and a 30 year old ork with a walker is kind of retarded. Dying young is one thing, aging faster is something else. Plus, the setting seems to describe metas, particularly orks, living in some really awful urban conditions, and when you add in drug/BTL use, you'd get a low enough lifespan as it is. Plus, the same 3rd ed book that listed the ork lifespan as 40ish listed Trolls at 50 and Humans at 60 (worldwide). So I naturally assumed it was due to living conditions.


Sorry but given the number of official novels that touch on the ork lifespan being shorter than any other metahuman race, I think we are well past their official canon lifespan being term as "fluff". YMMV however.

- J.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
And to be fair, his death was a once in a lifetime event

as, you know, death usually should be . .
Grinder
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 18 2008, 10:35 AM) *
Sorry but given the number of official novels that touch on the ork lifespan being shorter than any other metahuman race, I think we are well past their official canon lifespan being term as "fluff". YMMV however.


Novels are no rulebooks.
Novels are no rulebooks.
Novels are no rulebooks.
Novels are no rulebooks.
Novels are no rulebooks.

wobble.gif
Stahlseele
no, but rulebooks are.
and in one of them, average lifespan of orcs was about 40 years
Grinder
Ah, in pre-SR4-time. grinbig.gif
Stahlseele
yes. SR3-Time.
Which is, in Game, barely 10 years in the past . . which is, more or less, the whole point of this thread i think.
also about dodger: i never wrote immortal, i wrote immoral, and that was intentional ^^
that's one of the nice things about shadowrun. it generally does not do this stupid thing where the evil bad villians and the good shining heros allways come back, no matter how dead the world thought them to be . .
Fortune
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 18 2008, 09:57 PM) *
also about dodger: i never wrote immortal, i wrote immoral, and that was intentional


I'm well aware of that. I never implied otherwise.

That's partly my point. Obviously Immortal Elves shouldn't count, but Dodger is not an Immortal Elf, so therefore should not be discounted out-of-hand when determining the oldest canon character.
Red_Cap
I know that FASA's not around these days, but I always likened this topic to a similar phenomena in their other successful IP, BattleTech. Natasha Kerensky was kicking ass and taking names as a MechWarrior and Wolf Clan Khan into her 90's before she got roasted in her cockpit; Jaime Wolf was as old if not older when he kicked it during the Jihad. The difference between the two is that all BTech characters die (usually horribly bloody battlefield deaths, as befitting a wargame) eventually (except VSD, apparently) whereas Knight, FastJack, et al are still mostly hanging around. It's a case of the writers liking their characters too much to really axe them for good.

Hell, DC killed Superman. . . . . . for a few issues, anyway.
hobgoblin
deaths in superhero comics are overrated.

and who cares about the big bads, i kinda liked the odd ones poping up in shadowtalks more.

these days its to sanitized, where is the big ol' tir tarngire talks with dragon-loads of veiled statements being made, followed by threads after threads of forum-goers trying to guess who the hell was hiding behind some handle or other...
The Jake
QUOTE (Grinder @ Dec 18 2008, 10:48 AM) *
Novels are no rulebooks.
Novels are no rulebooks.
Novels are no rulebooks.
Novels are no rulebooks.
Novels are no rulebooks.

wobble.gif


You know their lifespans are also in the rulebooks, right? nyahnyah.gif

- J.
The Jake
QUOTE (Red_Cap @ Dec 18 2008, 05:03 PM) *
I know that FASA's not around these days, but I always likened this topic to a similar phenomena in their other successful IP, BattleTech. Natasha Kerensky was kicking ass and taking names as a MechWarrior and Wolf Clan Khan into her 90's before she got roasted in her cockpit; Jaime Wolf was as old if not older when he kicked it during the Jihad. The difference between the two is that all BTech characters die (usually horribly bloody battlefield deaths, as befitting a wargame) eventually (except VSD, apparently) whereas Knight, FastJack, et al are still mostly hanging around. It's a case of the writers liking their characters too much to really axe them for good.

Hell, DC killed Superman. . . . . . for a few issues, anyway.


Emphasis mine. I agree 100% and this is my concern and what prompted me to write this.

I've just killed off my original 1st edition character from Shadowrun I had played on-off for over 10 years - all as part of a major plot hook to introduce my players to the new SR4 game.

- J.
Red_Cap
And that's the kind of self-sacrifice I like to see in my playerbase!
Method
I think the whole problem is that the life expectancies published in SR3 were just down right silly. Even today you'd have have to go to places like Botswana and Sudan to find the average life expectancy for Humans listed in SR3 (50). And orks are considerably below that!! (35-40). I understand there is supposed to be a lot more violence and disease in the SR universe and whatnot, but right now, today, Somalia is sitting at about 49.25 and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the world in 2070 is not as bad as Somalia. Its a simple matter of the authors not doing their research, throwing out arbitrary numbers and ending up with a (now defunct) SR factoid that is not congruent with the rest of the game world.

Here's are some actual data if anyone is interested.
hobgoblin
i suspect that sr3 just echoed earlier versions...
MaxMahem
If the writers kill of all the cool characters, then whom are the PCs and GMs to kill?
Grinder
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 19 2008, 02:55 AM) *
You know their lifespans are also in the rulebooks, right? nyahnyah.gif


Yup - but you talked about novels. spin.gif
The Jake
QUOTE (Grinder @ Dec 19 2008, 12:13 PM) *
Yup - but you talked about novels. spin.gif


Yes I cited official "canon" sources.

I'm not sure what your point is? Novels are canon, same as sourcebooks.

- J.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 19 2008, 10:14 AM) *
Novels are canon, same as sourcebooks.

Mmmmmmm... not really.
Method
Not at all.
PlatonicPimp
About the orc lifespans: There's a genetic desease that is very common among orcs that causes premature aging: if I remember correctly the orc in charge of yamatetsu had it. The reason for the initially low figures in earlier editions is partly because of bad conditions and partly because the scientists studying orc lifespans had a large number of these premautely aging orcs in their sample set.

An Orc who has the desease has the shorter natural lifespan. Those who don't have it have a natural human lifespan. Orcs still mature physically faster than other metahumans: this is partly responsible for their reputations as many physically adult orcs are still pre-teens and as mentally capable and emotionally mature as their counterparts among other races. Remember, though, that normal humans are biologically "adult" around 14 themselves. The "18 is adult" thing is a specific social construct.
Malachi
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 17 2008, 09:17 PM) *
So POTENTIALLY Hatchman could be immortal - unless it's directly been stated elsewhere he died.

This is assuming, of course, that you consider the "product" that is the result of the cyberzombie process as "alive." I imagine Hatchetman's friends probably wouldn't agree. The process of creating cyberzombies as taught by the Ordo Maximus actually called for the subject to be ritually killed during the process and then "brought back" somehow, but they were.... different.
Fortune
The last statement about novels and canon that I recall was back in the FanPro days. It was said that all but one of the (English) novels are considered to be canon.
The Jake
QUOTE (Malachi @ Dec 19 2008, 09:33 PM) *
This is assuming, of course, that you consider the "product" that is the result of the cyberzombie process as "alive." I imagine Hatchetman's friends probably wouldn't agree. The process of creating cyberzombies as taught by the Ordo Maximus actually called for the subject to be ritually killed during the process and then "brought back" somehow, but they were.... different.


Now you're splitting hairs.

No matter which way you cut it, he's still around - so long as he wants to be (or more specifically remembers to be 'alive').

QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 19 2008, 11:18 PM) *
The last statement about novels and canon that I recall was back in the FanPro days. It was said that all but one of the (English) novels are considered to be canon.


Correct. There's been too much water under the bridge and too many novels referred to in sourcebooks for novels NOT to be considered canon.

Which novel wasn't considered canon? I'm sure I know it but I cannot recall. Any idea?

- J.
Fortune
You know, I've had this conversation many times, and I can never remember exactly which novel is the exception. I really want to say Terminus Experiment, but I know that isn't it. I think that last time I single out Dead Air, but I'm not sure that was correct.
Stahlseele
Terminus Experiment is an over the top, but very good novel . .
and Dead Air is simply GOOD . . and the best rigger novel of all . . if there are any others anyway . .
who does not want a winger special for his/her bike-rigger? ^^
Fortune
Night's Pawn had some good rigging moments.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012