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SincereAgape
Hello! Earlier this morning I purchased the Tir Tairngire source book written in 1993 by Nigel Findley. When I first started running the Shadows in 1997, before the internet marketing sales, this book was incredibly hard to come by. Being a huge fan of elves, it was a "Major Bummer."

Before it comes in the mail though (possibly planning to run a campaign in the Tir) can anyone give a brief synopsis of what material is included in the book? Is it something that a GM can use to run a successful campaign?

Also, has there been any rumors, circulation, hearsay, propoganda, work, hint, talk or development of a 4th edition or updated version of Tir Tairngire or Tir NoNog?
Matsci
IIRC, Tir Tairngire's economy basically imploded, and the people rose up in rebellion. The councel of princes was reshuffled and lost a lot of power , and a Democratic government was set up, with the Ork Larry Zincan was elected. He and Hesaby worked together, and brought in the Horizon group, who basically revitalized the country, opening it up greatly, and bringing in large amounts of tourism cash.

The Charisma Associates branch of Horizon is now based in Portland.

This is all covered on page 42 of Corporate Enclaves.

hazemyth
There has been speculation about making the next location book be about awakened cities. If that's the case, maybe Portland?
Critias
In other words, the Tir "today" is pretty much nothing at all like the Tir in the Tir book. It's still a fun read (one of my favorites), but it's pretty out of date in a 4e game.
hobgoblin
i wonder whats going on at that other tir. tho i guess a place to start is SoE...
AllTheNothing
The Tir is probably a place full of intrigue, the old dominant caste is not that easy to trow out and they probably banded together to preserve their power from the assoult of the foreign competitors (probably banding around the Telestrian Corporation), they might even have ties with the Black Sun rebels (you know the elven suprematist faction of the Rinnelè that belived the old Tir failed due poisoning of the elven ways by non elves) in order to provide the invaders with an enemy to fight and distract them from their machinations (basicaly a shadow war on two fronts, one the "legal" shadowrunning, tho other the terrorist guerrilla of the Black Sun, useless to say that the ties with the Black Sun are the most well concealed ones, with so many layers of deniability that could make SK internal structure seems crystal clear); and lets not forget the ex-high prince, Alachia and Jenna Ni-Fairra influence in the background.
Well, I just think that it would be a plausible evolution of the setting.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (SincereAgape @ Mar 12 2009, 05:35 PM) *
Is it something that a GM can use to run a successful campaign?

Yes, though it lends itself to a certain type of game and time frame (2050ish to 2065ish). There's much less typical shadowrunning, as there is a smaller megacorporate presence, and a much higher level of political intrigue due to the high power wielded by the political elite. Laes is a Tir runners best friend, as even a missing maid is an investigated act. It's a magic heavy setting, which makes it easier to run a magic heavy group. Shadows of North America (3rd edition) has an update on Tir, but AllTheNothing covered it.
hermit
QUOTE
Hello! Earlier this morning I purchased the Tir Tairngire source book written in 1993 by Nigel Findley. When I first started running the Shadows in 1997, before the internet marketing sales, this book was incredibly hard to come by. Being a huge fan of elves, it was a "Major Bummer."

Before it comes in the mail though (possibly planning to run a campaign in the Tir) can anyone give a brief synopsis of what material is included in the book? Is it something that a GM can use to run a successful campaign?

Also, has there been any rumors, circulation, hearsay, propoganda, work, hint, talk or development of a T4th edition or updated version of Tir Tairngire or Tir NoNog?

he Tir book contains an overview of thee country, a quite detailed history of the place, chapters detailing law enforcement, this place's crazed social structure and all such stuff. Basically, the country in a nutshell, with some nice flavour stuff, plenty of shadowtalk, and a final chapter which features some hints at all these elfy/dragon secrets. Good book, fun read, I think you will enjoy it, so long as you aren't another of these D&D players who love to carry this ... system's ... preconceptions over to everything else they play.

Now. How is the Tir today?

In short: a FUBAR setting made to make Mary Sue, inc (Horizon) shine; it has been totally nerfed to make it more accessible for the Pink Mohawk crowd and the Orxploiters and troll/dwarf fanboys.

Yeah, I don't like the new Tir much. I miss the Findley Tir. Best place to base villains in, ever.

There is nothing on Tir na nOg in 4th, though, so for the time being you can pretend the setting hasn't been fucked up beyond any hope of repair. That'll maybe come with Cities of Intrigue.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 13 2009, 01:18 PM) *
Mary Sue

I don't think you understand what that phrase means.
hermit
I do. Horizon is, though, one of the more interesting mary sues i have seen so far. And Horizon really qualifies as an overidealised, flawless, and way too favoured authors' pet.
TKDNinjaInBlack
Horizon Group a Mary Sue? No effing way. The writers are just trying to make us think it's all kittens and rainbows until they drop a big digital bomb on us that they'll be leading to with the metaplot for the next few years. Horizon will be the most horrible and twisted of all the corps and I can't wait to see why!
hermit
QUOTE
Horizon Group a Mary Sue? No effing way. The writers are just trying to make us think it's all kittens and rainbows until they drop a big digital bomb on us that they'll be leading to with the metaplot for the next few years. Horizon will be the most horrible and twisted of all the corps and I can't wait to see why!

Synner stated this will not happen, and he thinks Horizon is "evil" enough as is. o no, I don't expect much of that kind there. Also, Horizon is THE plot device they use to promotestuff otherwise inexplainable in the SR world (like everyone rooting for ghoul rights all of a sudden, and wendigos being respected members of society, and ever since the Arcology massacre, AIs becoming popular because they have fluffy icons).
TKDNinjaInBlack
Well, I suppose your right. I'll secretly be hoping for Horizon to take the side of the digital intelligences when the secret battles between meat and machine become an overt war in the real world. This of course will happen while there's a huge surge in mana and some of the really nasty horrors start waging their war of madness on metahumanity from that astral.
Kanada Ten
Hoizon makes people OK with AI - how much more evil do you need them to be?! It's like They Live! happening right before our very eyes!
hobgoblin
was there not some mind/opinion control project going? dawkins group or something?
Degausser
QUOTE (Matsci @ Mar 12 2009, 06:00 PM) *
IIRC, Tir Tairngire's economy basically imploded, and the people rose up in rebellion. The councel of princes was reshuffled and lost a lot of power , and a Democratic government was set up, with the Ork Larry Zincan was elected. He and Hesaby worked together, and brought in the Horizon group, who basically revitalized the country, opening it up greatly, and bringing in large amounts of tourism cash.

The Charisma Associates branch of Horizon is now based in Portland.

This is all covered on page 42 of Corporate Enclaves.


I . . . I . . . I . . . Wait, what?

Okay, I know I don't keep up with shadowrun history too much. I know that I have missed a few plot points like Ghostwalker's return to Denver . . . but how the HELL did I miss the Tir tearing down it's marble walls and letting non-elves in? An ork as president? WHAT? When did the Tir stop being a raciest elves-only-club?

Man, I may be more unprepared than I thought to run my shadowrun campaign.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Mar 13 2009, 04:34 PM) *
was there not some mind/opinion control project going? dawkins group or something?

The Dawkins Group are like opinion ninjas. If there's some teacher in the CAS who even thinks Intelligent Desgin, they break into her classroom, dose her with Laes and kill all the students.

Then they nuke the school from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
hermit
QUOTE
Hoizon makes people OK with AI - how much more evil do you need them to be?! It's like They Live! happening right before our very eyes!

AI are PC, therefore not evil per se anymore. Much like wendigo and other Infected.

QUOTE
but how the HELL did I miss the Tir tearing down it's marble walls and letting non-elves in? An ork as president? WHAT? When did the Tir stop being a raciest elves-only-club?

You, sir, have just been Mediablitzed.

QUOTE
was there not some mind/opinion control project going? dawkins group or something?

Boo scary hoo, corporations manipulating the mass media. What an unexpcted and horrible turn of events! Never seen before!

The Dawkins Group, however, is the Justice League with less spandex and rules-compatible superpowers.

QUOTE
The Dawkins Group is like opinion ninjas. If there's some teacher in the CAS who even thinks Intelligent Desgin, they break into her classroom, dose her with Laes and kill all the students.

Then they nuke the school from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Nah, they just Mediablitz them.
TheForgotten
QUOTE (TKDNinjaInBlack @ Mar 13 2009, 08:27 PM) *
Horizon Group a Mary Sue? No effing way. The writers are just trying to make us think it's all kittens and rainbows until they drop a big digital bomb on us that they'll be leading to with the metaplot for the next few years. Horizon will be the most horrible and twisted of all the corps and I can't wait to see why!


Hold on the group that specializes in PR has a squeaky clean reputation? Who'd ever have thought. . . best front for organleggers ever.
Kanada Ten
Think about it: what use are people to Horizon? Employees live an idyllic life of meaningless banter and play. If one's extracted? Oh well, nobody cares. Nobody cares! Why? Cause the people don't actually do anything at Horizon - they're just the face, man. They're pacifying the world with pleasing images, making believe the world is a happy little place, all the while taking away the purpose of life. How is that not evil! ARGHHHH. Horizon is ushering in the Singularity - the point when humans are useless: we'll all lay around drinking martinis in perfect bliss if we're around at all (which is a bad thing!) - and they're prepping the world for it. Fight the lie!

*relaxes*
hermit
QUOTE
Hold on the group that specializes in PR has a squeaky clean reputation? Who'd ever have thought. . . best front for organleggers ever.

Problem is, that PR extends to game information, too. Unlike, say, Aztechnology's.

QUOTE
Cause the people don't actually do anything at Horizon - they're just the face, man. They're pacifying the world with pleasing images, making believe the world is a happy little place, all the while taking away the purpose of life.

Which would be?

QUOTE
Horizon is ushering in the Singularity - the point when humans are useless: we'll all lay around drinking martinis in perfect bliss if we're around at all (which is a bad thing!) - and they're prepping the world for it. Fight the lie!

Again, if there at least were hints at this in game info, yes, I'd agree with you. So far, though - nothing there too.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (Degausser @ Mar 13 2009, 10:45 PM) *
I . . . I . . . I . . . Wait, what?

Okay, I know I don't keep up with shadowrun history too much. I know that I have missed a few plot points like Ghostwalker's return to Denver . . . but how the HELL did I miss the Tir tearing down it's marble walls and letting non-elves in? An ork as president? WHAT? When did the Tir stop being a raciest elves-only-club?

Man, I may be more unprepared than I thought to run my shadowrun campaign.

Wow, missing the Ghostwalker's happy homecoming means that you MUST also have missed the whole year of the comet, it's just like missing the awakening; well maybe not that extreme but it DID rock the world, both in a metaphorical and letteral sense of the term, it's a quite a feat to manage ti miss that.
Anyway back to the Tir. The Tir had it easy until after the Big D departed to the big hoard that dragons recive after a life spent virtuosly (actualy he chose that eternal rest can wait and he got enrolled into Earth Metaplanar Defence Force), until that moment the Tir economy was based mainly on export of ..... something I don't remember, and everything was fine (for them at least), than the Big D becomes the first wyrm and goes boom, driving the masses insane (there were a dreckload of of slots pissed off mithy way, so riot on chummers, riot on) leading to alot of extra work for the Star and KE, when dust settled a little people noticed (or at least we were let know of) that the Tir had closed the frontiers and entered in an ultraparanoid (by shadow's standard) isolationist mode, the thing ticked off some slots with money and interests into the trede with the Tir (and gave a good excuse to the human-suprematists to call for economical action against the Tir) resulting into sactions against the Tir's exports; the Tir's economy started to go down the drain but being the whole country built on the elven suprematist pride of the princes the problem wasn't even aknowlegded much less was adressed, as time went on the economical (and living) conditions of large parts of the population turned for worse and worse, at the same time the caste system produced unsufferable disparity of conditions betwen the elite (that broght the country near bankrupt) and the masses. In this explosive situation started a rebelllion known as Rinnelè (the shortened name, the full name meant "rebels of the spire" and that irked the princes the most....cough cough Arlequim cough), the princes refused to aknowledge their existance cracking down on them as they were petty criminals (using lethal forces) until Jenna bitch-Fairra chose to take the matter into her (bloodstained) hands and led a bloody repression; the things went on with the rebels fighting a war against an enemy with enormously superior resources and the princes fighting against a far excessive number of angry peoples (that had the support of an elven living legend and at least one Great Dragon) resulting in a protracted struggle that lasted all the way to the Crash 2.0 when the princes "chose" to step down and went in hiding (some say in Seattle).
That's the general story, there are also a few of subplots like Aitne and Enhra the Scribe stepping down from the council and Lofwyr being replaced by Hestaby, the ork calming down the masses during the surge madness and opposing the isolationist stances of the council, becoming later the voice of the common peple among the princes and calling in the Horizon's Charisma Association (which had been hired before by Lugh Surehan under suggestion of Hestaby in an attempt to polish the tarnished image that the council had among the subjects, miracles sometime happen, other times they don't) for preventing the country to crumble due infighting.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Mar 14 2009, 12:15 AM) *
Wow, missing the Ghostwalker's happy homecoming means that you MUST also have missed the whole year of the comet, it's just like missing the awakening; well maybe not that extreme but it DID rock the world, both in a metaphorical and letteral sense of the term, it's a quite a feat to manage ti miss that.

i thought year of the comet never happened. wink.gif
Degausser
Yeah, actually, I missed the whole Haley's commet thing in SR3. I only picked up on it in SR4.

Anywho, thanks for the info about those paranoid Elves. Back in my SR3 days, there were three things you never did, and one of them was trying to enter the Tir.

So how open and accepting are the elves now? Can non-elves gain residency? (One would assume so, since that ork is their leader.) How is trade and travel in and out? Could I, with a bit of forgery, drive from Seattle, through the NAN, Tir and into the California Free State without a lot of problems?


Bira
Oh, Horizon is evil enough. They're the antagonists in "On the Run", for example - the group at one point faces a Horizon corporate death squad sent after a friggin' music album, probably because doing that was cheaper than just buying the thing. That's not something a squeaky-clean person or corp would do. I bet this sort of thing goes on all the time with them. They may be cleaner, than, say, Aztechnology or Saeder-Krupp, but that's not saying much.
hermit
QUOTE
Oh, Horizon is evil enough. They're the antagonists in "On the Run", for example - the group at one point faces a Horizon corporate death squad sent after a friggin' music album, probably because doing that was cheaper than just buying the thing.

No, that's just SR's corporate culture. Point is, Horizon's 'dark spots' are what every corp of A and bigger does per default. Also, it was a crooked exec acting on his own, if I remember correctly, and not an order by the Consensus or anything, so the company actually isn't even to blame.

QUOTE
They may be cleaner, than, say, Aztechnology or Saeder-Krupp, but that's not saying much.

They still are pretty lawful-good. Problem is, all other megas do something beyond the above mentioned business tactics. Ares breeds bug spirits. Saeder-Krupp is run according to the darth Vader School Of Management. Evo does experiments on humans. So does NeoNET, but that company is run by a dragon too. MCT and Wuxing are fronts for syndicates. Shiawase and Renraku are fascist and known for having just stopped operating concentration camps for Metas; Raku also unleashed a mad AI on the world. And Aztech is ... well ... run by demons.

Horizon ... does what? Nothing extraordinary really, and even that in lower doses than everybody else. Also, Horizon is always right, always knows it's stuff, never makes a mistake, and everyone wants to work there. Horizon is just BETTER than anyone else, by way of author's will. Horizon never, ever suffers setbacks and alwyys gets it's will. And that's where I feel it's getting annoying.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 13 2009, 04:10 PM) *
I do. Horizon is, though, one of the more interesting mary sues i have seen so far. And Horizon really qualifies as an overidealised, flawless, and way too favoured authors' pet.

No it doesn't. You realize that these fictional companies along with the entire SR Universe are created by a committee of writers and editors, right? No developer exists in a vacuum. No one person is pushing their pet creations. And simply because Horizon is dominating the metaplot spotlight more than you'd like it to doesn't automatically qualify it for Mary Sue-status.
hermit
QUOTE
No developer exists in a vacuum. No one person is pushing their pet creations.

So Mara Jade is no Mary Sue either, since the character was developed and written by different authors, huh? Funny, given how she is often used to illustrate the concept of a Mary Sue.

QUOTE
And simply because Horizon is dominating the metaplot spotlight more than you'd like it to doesn't automatically qualify it for Mary Sue-status.

That is not the only problem I have with Horizon's portrayal. As you can read above.
TKDNinjaInBlack
And with their new importance to the SR4 metaplot, I again throw in my .02 Nuyen and say that we'll find out they're evil and a bunch of bastards soon enough. Come on, when we find out a lot about something in Shadowrun over a long period of time, there is going to be some kind of climax and super explosion of bad shit that happens with it. Any of the major metaplots (which I love the fact that the writers and devs have a major event every game year!) correlate to loads of information and hints leading up to the climax or events. Horizon is a huge scary boogeyman who only appears as a puppy till you've forgotten he could be evil and then rips your soul into a million pieces.
Matsci
Look, we don't know that much about Horizon. The only info we have is a short paragraph in the BBB, and some short Infodumps in the Settings books.

Aztechnolgy has been around for what, 65 years in the setting, with 20 years of active running. A few bad things are going to come out. Horizon has been around 9 years, and a AAA for 5 and about 2 years of active running.

Can you see why there might be different levels of details available about the dirty dealings?
TKDNinjaInBlack
good point. Better odds of finding gold in an acre than searching a few square yards.

When that gold is found though, I still want them to be digital boogeymen...
TheForgotten
Let me be the contrarian here, Horizon actually are the good guys, and they're going to get wiped out by the rest of the AAA megas and become the great lost cause of the SR universe.
TheForgotten
Oh and the remnants are going to be run by a free Toxic Spirit.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Degausser @ Mar 13 2009, 05:45 PM) *
I . . . I . . . I . . . Wait, what?

Okay, I know I don't keep up with shadowrun history too much. I know that I have missed a few plot points like Ghostwalker's return to Denver . . . but how the HELL did I miss the Tir tearing down it's marble walls and letting non-elves in? An ork as president? WHAT? When did the Tir stop being a raciest elves-only-club?

Man, I may be more unprepared than I thought to run my shadowrun campaign.


Basically the tir is like every other place now. Hey look an identical place with a different skin woo-hoo.
hermit
QUOTE
Look, we don't know that much about Horizon. The only info we have is a short paragraph in the BBB, and some short Infodumps in the Settings books.

Aztechnolgy has been around for what, 65 years in the setting, with 20 years of active running. A few bad things are going to come out. Horizon has been around 9 years, and a AAA for 5 and about 2 years of active running.

Can you see why there might be different levels of details available about the dirty dealings?

Actually, that is a crap explanation. Aztech was the boo scarey boogieman because it had been inteded to from the start. Horizon was planned as a plot device to force AI and Technomancer PC into a universe unlikely to accept either because of how AI and their Otakum minions acted before. That and it continues to act as a plot device to force change in ways that make no setting internal sense (like, an orc high prince in the Tir). That's what Horizon is, that's all there is to it, and that's all it will be unhless the authors really drastically rewrite it.

QUOTE
Basically the tir is like every other place now. Hey look an identical place with a different skin woo-hoo.

Accessible for every orc--heavy shadowrunner posse, streamlined, and ready to use. Same flavour all over the world. Yes Sir, that is a great way to make an interesting setting!
Matsci
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 14 2009, 03:16 PM) *
Actually, that is a crap explanation. Aztech was the boo scarey boogieman because it had been inteded to from the start. Horizon was planned as a plot device to force AI and Technomancer PC into a universe unlikely to accept either because of how AI and their Otakum minions acted before. That and it continues to act as a plot device to force change in ways that make no setting internal sense (like, an orc high prince in the Tir). That's what Horizon is, that's all there is to it, and that's all it will be unhless the authors really drastically rewrite it.


Zincan has been a member of the Councel of princes since 2036. See page 38 of the Tir Taingire book.
Horizon wasn't even conceived of then. I think you are giving Horizon wayyy to much credit for changing things.

Horizon wasn't the only Corp to support Techos, Evo and even Shiwaise (subtly) backed Techos.

hermit
QUOTE
Zincan has been a member of the Councel of princes since 2036. See page 38 of the Tir Taingire book. Horizon wasn't even conceived of then. I think you are giving Horizon wayyy to much credit for changing things.

Changing the entire social structure of the Tir IS Horizon's work, as is wrapping up a bitter civil war in months using Mediablitz technology.

QUOTE
Horizon wasn't the only Corp to support Techos, Evo and even Shiwaise (subtly) backed Techos.

Horizon was and is the only corp that issues freebie citizenship to Technos and AI. Shiawase and Evo refrained from cutting up Technos (much). They did not, however, Mediablitz everyone into supporting AI rights after two instances of mass murder by two out of three AI in existence at that time because they can have fluffy icons.

Not to even mention how Horizon somehow, between all this world changing, undermined the PCC and challenged Aztech in the consumer goods market to such a degree that Aztech is losing it's grip there (see corp enclaves).

Yes, Horizon is given way too much credit. However, I am not to blame here, but the authors of these books.
Nath
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Mar 14 2009, 05:08 PM) *
No it doesn't. You realize that these fictional companies along with the entire SR Universe are created by a committee of writers and editors, right? No developer exists in a vacuum. No one person is pushing their pet creations.

Of course they do. Peter Taylor did so with Spinrad Industries, Jon Szeto had Transys Neuronet present all over China in SoA, and so on. And spirits know I would have done the same with Esprit had I kept on freelancing (and, well, all SR corporations as a whole). I guess it has to do with the fact that almost every time, freelancers have to cut down material, and try to reuse their idea in later book.

Freelancers routinely push their own creations, distort others' and royally ignore what they disliked. Cross, Wuxing and Horizon poped up out of thin air and climbed to the Corporate Court over a handful of sourcebooks, while Monobe has been around, hoping for a AAA seat since Corporate Shadowfiles in 1993/2054.

And sometimes, things were kept intact, from sourcebook to sourcebook, while the author who wrote it departed Shadowrun a decade ago, and could barely remember by now how that plot was supposed to evolve (who remember Shiawase tried to take over Universal Omnitech in the early 2060ies ?).

As a side note, Wikipedia can answer the question about the term "Mary-Sue". I'll add that the Mary Sue concept better apply to classical storytelling, where heroes (or anti-heroes) encounter peripeties up to the climax. RPG sourcebooks have a completely different stricture, and rarely feature (anti-)heroes, as this is the PCs' job.
Matsci
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 15 2009, 07:50 AM) *
Changing the entire social structure of the Tir IS Horizon's work, as is wrapping up a bitter civil war in months using Mediablitz technology.


Horizon was and is the only corp that issues freebie citizenship to Technos and AI. Shiawase and Evo refrained from cutting up Technos (much). They did not, however, Mediablitz everyone into supporting AI rights after two instances of mass murder by two out of three AI in existence at that time because they can have fluffy icons.

Not to even mention how Horizon somehow, between all this world changing, undermined the PCC and challenged Aztech in the consumer goods market to such a degree that Aztech is losing it's grip there (see corp enclaves).

Yes, Horizon is given way too much credit. However, I am not to blame here, but the authors of these books.


Y'know, it wasn't just Horizon that changed the Tir around. It was Horizon, and a fragging Great Dragon that wrapped up the Civil war

As for AI and Techno citizenship- Pistons points it out best. Why waste time and effort cutting up some techo brains when living sample can make you Nuyen now? It may just be pattern recognition. After the awakening, those who embraced magic came out ahead of those who chopped up mages. They may be trying to repeat that with the Emergance

Also, Horizon provided good publicity to AIs, after Pulsar approched them. For all we know, Pulsar hired the Charisma Associates to place a shiny face on AI, and that as a corp, they don't give a rats ass.

The only AI mass murder was Deus. Sojurner threatened to Drop Bio-weapons on major cities, but it's not like any other oppressed minority has fallen back on terrorism to draw attention to their cause.

As for Undermineing the PCC, what was the PCC main economy? Matrix Tech! '
What got exploded during the Crash 2.0? PCC's Grid!
What wasn't? Horizon's Grid!
So while the PCC was replacing all its hardware, Horizon saw an opportunity to expand its biz, and took it.

As for challenging Aztech, your reading too much into that sentance. They just Edged out Aztech as grocery providers in North America. Not worldwide, not for all consumer goods. Just Groceries in North America. Considering they control most of the Agri-biz in the Central Vally, and how many NA countries have a grudge against Aztlan, that's not exactly surprising
hermit
QUOTE
Y'know, it wasn't just Horizon that changed the Tir around. It was Horizon, and a fragging Great Dragon that wrapped up the Civil war

Yeah, and made evryone forget it, hug each other and start a new, fabulous life under Horizon rule. *pukes*

And since when has "it's a dragon!" been a good explanation for plot points?

QUOTE
As for AI and Techno citizenship- Pistons points it out best. Why waste time and effort cutting up some techo brains when living sample can make you Nuyen now? It may just be pattern recognition. After the awakening, those who embraced magic came out ahead of those who chopped up mages. They may be trying to repeat that with the Emergance

Also, Horizon provided good publicity to AIs, after Pulsar approched them. For all we know, Pulsar hired the Charisma Associates to place a shiny face on AI, and that as a corp, they don't give a rats ass.

What pisses me off is that they again instantly succeeded, mere days after a self-righteous aI announced it would cause a global armageddon by shooting bioweapons at all major cities. A Mediablitz later everyone loves AI. That's like Horizon making Americans mass-convert to Islam mere days after 9-11 by publicity campaign. 'Ridiculous' is a vast understatement.

QUOTE
The only AI mass murder was Deus. Sojurner threatened to Drop Bio-weapons on major cities, but it's not like any other oppressed minority has fallen back on terrorism to draw attention to their cause.

Deus (Arcology), Mirage (one of the old novels), and both cooperatively with the Crash. The one non-mass murder AI is Morgana. And frankly, repressed muslim fundamentalists have taken to terrorism too, and not exactly been met with much understanding. In fact, few repressed minorities have ever succeeded with the terrorism approach (mainly the Irish).

QUOTE
As for Undermineing the PCC, what was the PCC main economy? Matrix Tech! '
What got exploded during the Crash 2.0? PCC's Grid!
What wasn't? Horizon's Grid!

And why not Horizon's grid? Because they are an author's pet.

QUOTE
As for challenging Aztech, your reading too much into that sentance. They just Edged out Aztech as grocery providers in North America. Not worldwide, not for all consumer goods. Just Groceries in North America. Considering they control most of the Agri-biz in the Central Vally, and how many NA countries have a grudge against Aztlan, that's not exactly surprising

Most of CALIFORNIA'S Agribusiness is in the CV. California =/= the whole of North America. Also, Aztlan, by canon, has the governments of half the NAN by the balls. No, not everyone will abandon Aztech. Besides, despite it's underlying evilness, Aztech has a public facade of being a decent company.

And frankly, NatVat owns half the Carribean. How is the flooded and devastated Central Valley gonna compete with that, huh?
Wesley Street
Mmmm... I see your point, Nath, and my statement was a bit broad. When you were developing Esprit, I'm certain you wanted the company to act as a formidable foil for players. But I also imagine you were placing reasonable limits to the scope and breadth of Esprit's influence within the shared universe.

Pushing personal creations, distortion and ignoring what is disliked is common in any shared playground creative community. Shared comic book universes are the best comparison I can think of and there are definitely times where some characters are getting more face time than others (ie: Wolverine). My objection to categorizing Horizon as a Mary-Sue is that the company has been used by a group of writers (most recently in the Lagos section of Feral Cities), rather than one developer utilizing it as a form of personal wish fulfillment to the point it overshadows all other aspects of the Sixth World (see Warren Ellis' Pete Wisdom in X-Factor. He came out of nowhere, no one is more awesome than him, and he gets all the chicks). "Mary-Sue" is an armchair critic's kneejerk response for "It's new and it takes away spotlight time from stuff I like."

As the newness factor fades, Corporate Guidebook is released which should flesh in that missing 2064-2070 history, and new metaplot points are introduced, players will find something else to whinge on about.
hermit
QUOTE
My objection to categorizing Horizon as a Mary-Sue is that the company has been used by a group of writers (most recently in the Lagos section of Feral Cities), rather than one developer utilizing it as a form of personal wish fulfillment to the point it overshadows all other aspects of the Sixth World (see Warren Ellis' Pete Wisdom in X-Factor. He came out of nowhere, no one is more awesome than him, and he gets all the chicks). "Mary-Sue" is an armchair critic's kneejerk response for "It's new and it takes away spotlight time from stuff I like."

My point in cathegorising it as a Mary Sue is that is is innately cooler, better and more successful than anyone. Has there been ANY recorded failure of Horizon's? Is it disliked by ANYONE? It even is forced down runners' throats as a good, fair employer by Corp enclaves. Yes, it is not an average MS, but the scope of it's being greater than anyone and being successful, cool, and popular is sufficient. It is not that it takes spotlight from what I like, it is that it is ALWAYS cool, successful, great, popular, everyone loves Horizon, even the most critical of people dealing with corps.

Also, like Pete Wisdom, it came out of nowhere and made it to AAA from garage shack, whereas respectable AAs like ZIC and Monobe have been around forever and seem never to get onto the Corp court. How Horizon got there is another mystery. Maybe they Mediablitzed the court.

Future publications MAY change this. Unlles they are out, however, I am NOT taking them into account. Why should I?
Wesley Street
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 15 2009, 03:24 PM) *
Future publications MAY change this. Unlles they are out, however, I am NOT taking them into account. Why should I?

Because it might make you sound like a reasonable adult who understands that, in fiction, not every bit of plot is revealed in the first chapter?
hermit
QUOTE
Because it might make you sound like a reasonable adult who understands that, in fiction, not every bit of plot is revealed in the first chapter?

Sorry, wishful thinking is wishful thinking, and will not make anything come true. And Synner has repeatedly denied there will be a revelation, a dark secret, like with many other corps.

Also, Horizon never was a major part of any metaplot, it ha sso far only been used as a device to make certain things, like Technomancer accpetance, AI acceptance, and such, happen. By way of Mediablitz.

If you know things I do not, fine. Feel superior if you get off of that. But do not expect anyone who doesn't have your insider knowledge to take it into account.
Wesley Street
I never said anything about major parts of metaplots. Not did I say anything about big reveals or dark secrets. What I said was we don't have the whole picture about the Tir or Horizon yet. We're still in the prologue of their story. Corporate Handbook should provide more info. If that isn't good enough for you, I'm sorry. You'll probably be perpetually disgruntled.
hermit
QUOTE
We're still in the prologue of their story. Corporate Handbook should provide more info.

What Synner has spoilered about CH did not exactly make me have high hopes. Neither do I like Horizon in the least. Yeah, that likely means I will not like Horizon in the future either.
Zurai
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 15 2009, 03:04 PM) *
What Synner has spoilered about CH did not exactly make me have high hopes. Neither do I like Horizon in the least. Yeah, that likely means I will not like Horizon in the future either.


In other words, there's no value to you continuing to post on it. You are unwilling to listen to any counter-arguments. Your mind is already set. You have taken the Prejudiced (Radical) negative quality vs Horizon, and you aren't inclined to spend Karma to buy it off. We realize that. Can you please stop clouding up the thread so that people who don't really care that you have incredibly biased views about an imaginary corporation can discuss the other interesting subjects here?
hermit
QUOTE
In other words, there's no value to you continuing to post on it. You are unwilling to listen to any counter-arguments. Your mind is already set. You have taken the Prejudiced (Radical) negative quality vs Horizon, and you aren't inclined to spend Karma to buy it off. We realize that. Can you please stop clouding up the thread so that people who don't really care that you have incredibly biased views about an imaginary corporation can discuss the other interesting subjects here?

I'm sure you'll find a thread that interests you. If not, why not open one?
Zurai
"Here", in the context of my post, pretty clearly referred to this particular thread. You've not said anything new since your second post in this thread. It's pretty clear that you're not going to change anyone's mind and it's ridiculously clear that no one's going to change your mind, so why not take a break from the thread (or, at least, Horizon) and let discussion try to get back on track?
hermit
QUOTE
"Here", in the context of my post, pretty clearly referred to this particular thread. You've not said anything new since your second post in this thread. It's pretty clear that you're not going to change anyone's mind and it's ridiculously clear that no one's going to change your mind, so why not take a break from the thread (or, at least, Horizon) and let discussion try to get back on track?

You fashion yourself a moderator? Besides, I was replying to Wesley. Since that is through, I will not post more on that topic anyway.

But if trying to moderate here makes you feel important, feel free to. Just don't expect anyone to care.
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